Guild Wars 2

I’m sure this has been covered before, but I have been unable to find the older threads with the forum search function.

Downed states in WvW -

This is something that needs to be removed altogether from WvW. It removes the ability of smaller groups to effectively engage and whittle down larger sized zergs in the field. It is impossible for a small team to beat a zerg through attrition and superior gameplay if the zerg can simply revive their players in seconds. Less options means less gameplay and that forces many players to adopt a common strategy (zerging). If a revive mechanic needs to stay in the game, it should at least (the very least) be limited to work outside of combat and take a substantial amount of time to do.

Player versus Door -

Doors should be immune to player damage and siege should be the ONLY answer. If a zerg is larger in numbers, it is extremely difficult to win when it comes to siege versus siege. Even if you do manage to defeat the enemy siege, the zerg can simply damage a door to the ground. Again, larger numbers and zerging is rewarded whereas superior gameplay and coordination is not rewarded. Siege weaponry becomes undervalued.

Conclusion -

WvW players effectiveness outside of a zerg is increased. Happiness abounds.

Downed state needs a little nerf. A decrease by 30% would be reasonable.

Smaller groups, if superior in tactics, can beat larger groups. You just gotta try and keep reviving also and avoid the main zerg. Usually big blobs don’t bother fighting a small group and if they do and you manage to keep them busy a while to kill you. Your allies have free reign on the map. It’s hard, but not impossible.

Also, removing PvD at the current stage would make it near impossible for an attacking group to take a defended tower. It’s already hard enough dealing with counter-trebs. And your average 30-40 man group attacking a well-defended t2+ tower will very easily run out of supplies (supply drain + having to place multiple rams/catas due to counter attacks). PvD is simply the best tactic vs counter-trebs. However I fear removing counter-trebs will severely work in the attackers favor who could then just blast a gate with 5 super rams without getting destroyed by a treb.

It’s a hard trade-off.

I posted about the downed/ress issue in beta. I had a smaller sized team that would pick away at the bigger zerg but it was meaningless because they get ressed within a few seconds

After the patch sieges wont hit through the gate. No more cata on the other side of the gate.
The downed state is an other question… As i know they will add a mastery what sends enemys back to spawn.

With regards to the door issue, a compromise solution has been suggested in which player skills will damage tier 1 and tier 2 gates just as they do now. Once the tower or keep is upgraded to fortified status, the gates become immune to player skills.

Other threads have had made similar suggestions regarding the downed state. A summary of some of them follows:

• Defeated players can only be rezzed by other players who aren’t in combat.

• A stomp sends a downed player back to spawn.

• A stomp sends a defeated player back to spawn.

• A defeated player is sent back to spawn after a certain amount of time has elapsed.

• Eliminate the downed state altogether.

ArenaNet removing player damage to gates, nerfing ram mastery and increasing rewards for defending is never going to happen.

That being said, they are fixing ressing from dead with the new assaulter mastery so at least that’s something (although this could be released in months from now for all we know).

KrazyKorean.7059:

I’m sure this has been covered before, but I have been unable to find the older threads with the forum search function.

Downed states in WvW -

This is something that needs to be removed altogether from WvW. It removes the ability of smaller groups to effectively engage and whittle down larger sized zergs in the field. It is impossible for a small team to beat a zerg through attrition and superior gameplay if the zerg can simply revive their players in seconds. Less options means less gameplay and that forces many players to adopt a common strategy (zerging). If a revive mechanic needs to stay in the game, it should at least (the very least) be limited to work outside of combat and take a substantial amount of time to do.

Player versus Door -

Doors should be immune to player damage and siege should be the ONLY answer. If a zerg is larger in numbers, it is extremely difficult to win when it comes to siege versus siege. Even if you do manage to defeat the enemy siege, the zerg can simply damage a door to the ground. Again, larger numbers and zerging is rewarded whereas superior gameplay and coordination is not rewarded. Siege weaponry becomes undervalued.

Conclusion -

WvW players effectiveness outside of a zerg is increased. Happiness abounds.

Disagree with both points.

1. Downstate adds strategy to both zergs and roaming groups. Do you go for the stomp or do you fight other people? More strategy is good.
2. PvD. What you do not realize is that most people do not enjoy siege v siege. You may be perfectly happy sitting in a tower all day using siege. The issue is that most people do not enjoy it. People want to fight.

I honestly don’t care that much about the Downed State. Doesn’t bother me or anyone I play with.

BulletNG.7069:

I honestly don’t care that much about the Downed State. Doesn’t bother me or anyone I play with.

There’s nothing worse than pulling off an epic meteor-nado bomb when you’re outnumbered and downing the majority of the enemy only to have the level 12 Bearbow Ranger that followed you from spawn rally them all.

Hard-rezzing while in combat also needs to go.

style.6173:

KrazyKorean.7059:

I’m sure this has been covered before, but I have been unable to find the older threads with the forum search function.

Downed states in WvW -

This is something that needs to be removed altogether from WvW. It removes the ability of smaller groups to effectively engage and whittle down larger sized zergs in the field. It is impossible for a small team to beat a zerg through attrition and superior gameplay if the zerg can simply revive their players in seconds. Less options means less gameplay and that forces many players to adopt a common strategy (zerging). If a revive mechanic needs to stay in the game, it should at least (the very least) be limited to work outside of combat and take a substantial amount of time to do.

Player versus Door -

Doors should be immune to player damage and siege should be the ONLY answer. If a zerg is larger in numbers, it is extremely difficult to win when it comes to siege versus siege. Even if you do manage to defeat the enemy siege, the zerg can simply damage a door to the ground. Again, larger numbers and zerging is rewarded whereas superior gameplay and coordination is not rewarded. Siege weaponry becomes undervalued.

Conclusion -

WvW players effectiveness outside of a zerg is increased. Happiness abounds.

Disagree with both points.

1. Downstate adds strategy to both zergs and roaming groups. Do you go for the stomp or do you fight other people? More strategy is good.
2. PvD. What you do not realize is that most people do not enjoy siege v siege. You may be perfectly happy sitting in a tower all day using siege. The issue is that most people do not enjoy it. People want to fight.

1. That’s wishful thinking.
2. People want to fight doors?

I agree with the OP. Or at least get rid of Rally. But it’ll never happen. I seoriously doubt they could change the way the downed state works just for WvW. Its too integrated into the game. And they sure as heck aren’t going to change it in PvE too.

Remove downstate would change wvw compleetly.

and Remove PvD would mean Adjust siege aswell.
Only reason Trebs/ac’s can hit people at other side of the door still is because without defending would just be impossible.
Because you can atleast slow people down the way it is atm.

Never liked the downed state, but you get rid of it, and where is the purpose of the finishers? You remove downed state from WvW, and finishers are only usable in sPvP. Something I don’t think a lot of people are going to support.

PvD is not always a guarantee win for the zerg. PvD only works on the Doors, hence the name, it cannot work against walls. Use that to place superior siege and invest in traits that allow you maximize the amount of damage you can do on that gate and your problems are solved. Unless of course your real issue is that there are only 5 of you defending against 75 people bashing their faces into the gate, then the issue isn’t PvD, its not having enough people to defend.

You can’t deny a zerg an objective, just because you don’t have the equal numbers to defend.

Fuzzion.2504:

Downed state needs a little nerf. A decrease by 30% would be reasonable.

In my opinion it would be much better with a revive speed nerf.. The speed at which especially a warrior can res ppl is ridiculous.. If I start a spike on someone as soon as they go down, I should be able to beat a reviver who started after me, but no most times they can revive b4 I can finish spike animation.

Oh btw I actually like the downed state as someone mention it adds another layer to the fight, I just think its a bit unbalanced atm.

That mean Anet wont sell finishers for WvW player…, also being stomped in gw2 its a feacture, players need to check if will rez up downed allies or kill hostile target part of the strategies of the game.

I find pvd(iojing ^.^) reinforced doors in a matter of seconds way more problematic.

Crunk n monkey.3749:

You can’t deny a zerg an objective, just because you don’t have the equal numbers to defend.

So, more numbers should always win?

And people wonder why people stack servers… pffffft…

KrazyKorean.7059:

I’m sure this has been covered before, but I have been unable to find the older threads with the forum search function.

Downed states in WvW -

This is something that needs to be removed altogether from WvW. It removes the ability of smaller groups to effectively engage and whittle down larger sized zergs in the field. It is impossible for a small team to beat a zerg through attrition and superior gameplay if the zerg can simply revive their players in seconds. Less options means less gameplay and that forces many players to adopt a common strategy (zerging). If a revive mechanic needs to stay in the game, it should at least (the very least) be limited to work outside of combat and take a substantial amount of time to do.

Conclusion -

WvW players effectiveness outside of a zerg is increased. Happiness abounds.

All we need is DELETE RALLY from game or change rally mechanic(you can`t rally from killing another player). SIMPLE!!!

Downstate works really well in small engagements, it adds to the experience of the small scale fight.

Right now though its too strong for zerg play and I think should be nerfed. A while ago it was suggested that this would be a positive change:

1 person rallies when enemy is cleaved (dps’d to dead in down state).
5 people rally when an enemy is stomped.

This change would nerf mass zerg rallies and in zerg battles you tend to not stomp people anyway, which will limit revives to 1 dead 1 rally. It would also leave small scale engagements largely untouched.

Stomp speed/revive speed is currently fine. Knock the reviver away or dps them. People don’t come back at full health and sometimes you can drop a lot of dps on a normally tanky person who is trying to revive, then redown the person he revived. We have used this method to turn/end fights when we get an opponent down.

Disable hard ressing while in combat.

Remove or at least reduce damage to gates of tier 3 structures.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeknar.6184:

Crunk n monkey.3749:

You can’t deny a zerg an objective, just because you don’t have the equal numbers to defend.

So, more numbers should always win?

And people wonder why people stack servers… pffffft…

No, but they shouldn’t always lose.

A lot of the game is base off that your going to go in down state if it was removed then you would need to scale down every one dmg by a great deal in pvp / wvw setting. One shot kill builds would be way too powerfully. That and you remove a good point for the match sources that havick groups use to show they are being useful to the weeks match. (Also you remove all the cool finisher from the game so they will NEVER remove downed states get that clear in your mind now or your never going to have a good time.)

As for pvd unless you have 40+ ppl attking a door its not going to effect the out come of how fast a door will drop (in that if you have a good number of ppl with you then you can build more rams cat etc.. so for every person you have with you that can attk the door they can also build more making the door drop faster anyway.)

Jski.6180:

A lot of the game is base off that your going to go in down state if it was removed then you would need to scale down every one dmg by a great deal in pvp / wvw setting. One shot kill builds would be way too powerfully. That and you remove a good point for the match sources that havick groups use to show they are being useful to the weeks match. (Also you remove all the cool finisher from the game so they will NEVER remove downed states get that clear in your mind now or your never going to have a good time.)

As for pvd unless you have 40+ ppl attking a door its not going to effect the out come of how fast a door will drop (in that if you have a good number of ppl with you then you can build more rams cat etc.. so for every person you have with you that can attk the door they can also build more making the door drop faster anyway.)

The most reasonable suggestion would be to keep the down state but to implement the Dodgeball Rules that were suggested a while back where one stomp is equal to one rally.

Downed state in WvW should have an option for the victim to be picked up and thrown off a cliff, at other enemies or into the blades of team mates. It would be hilarious….yeah asura baseball!

@OP: you are fighting a lost battle.
Zerglings are far more numerous than we are and they will keep explaining you how Downstate is great. Downsate is the main reason why zerg is prominent, but at this time of the game life, everyone seems happy with it. We have to accept it or leave the game. Oh and personnally keep tracks of the name of the game designers to be at least extremely cautious for my future game choices^^

Personally I think you should be allowed to ressurect while in down state if you kill someone (or finish them like currently). However, I don’t think you should be allowed to heal. If you’re not playing a Thief (even as Thief sometimes) it can be difficult to stomp someone because healing them is so kitten fast.

Just get rid of the rally system and allow resurrections only out of combat. Problem solved.

I’d settle for a 1~1 rally system, but that seens more complicated than just get rid of it, which means even more time for Anet to do it, so…

Anything would honestly be better than how down state currently exists. A bunch of good suggestions:

- slowing down reviving speed
- no reviving in combat
- adding limitations to rally or removing it completely

I admit that staking people is quite gratifying, but changes are in order. Assaulter Mastery sounds great, but will it work if someone is damaged to death as well? If the ability to pick people up in combat remains in the form that it is today, larger numbers will continue to be the only viable strategy in WvW.

PvD

Sieges should be meaningful. Being able to beat the door down mindlessly hurts gameplay.

Flytrap.8075:

Jski.6180:

A lot of the game is base off that your going to go in down state if it was removed then you would need to scale down every one dmg by a great deal in pvp / wvw setting. One shot kill builds would be way too powerfully. That and you remove a good point for the match sources that havick groups use to show they are being useful to the weeks match. (Also you remove all the cool finisher from the game so they will NEVER remove downed states get that clear in your mind now or your never going to have a good time.)

As for pvd unless you have 40+ ppl attking a door its not going to effect the out come of how fast a door will drop (in that if you have a good number of ppl with you then you can build more rams cat etc.. so for every person you have with you that can attk the door they can also build more making the door drop faster anyway.)

The most reasonable suggestion would be to keep the down state but to implement the Dodgeball Rules that were suggested a while back where one stomp is equal to one rally.

One chase would not be too bad it would changes the game a lot i am not sure if it would fix any of the major problems but it would be fun say if you could mod spvp to have this rule to see if it works out well. As things stand i think its 3 to 4 chases atm. If its just 3 (seeing how humans love 3) that maybe just a stander. I think 2 is a good number of times that you can go down the 3ed is a full down but i feel each time you get back up you should be weaker just a bit and not just less hp.

KrazyKorean.7059:

Downed states in WvW –
This is something that needs to be removed altogether from WvW.

Player versus Door –
Doors should be immune to player damage and siege should be the ONLY answer.

Conclusion –
WvW players effectiveness outside of a zerg is increased. Happiness abounds.

Does a Medic not heal wounded soldiers? [Sure at a slower pace but who got time for that?]

Does an axe not break down doors? [Here’s Johnny!]

Does a small group of soldiers not get wiped by tanks?

This is a war. A war is not won by a small group of soldiers. Its a number game.

1. No hard-rezzing in combat.

2. Slower revives in general.

3. 1 kill – 1 rally.

4. Only melee weapons can damage gates.

We’ve been preaching this for years.

“smaller groups to effectively engage and whittle down larger sized zergs in the field”
hope this will NEVER happen, cause i dont want to see how 5 ppl can slaughter whole zerg, its unreal

EFWinters.5421:

ArenaNet removing player damage to gates, nerfing ram mastery and increasing rewards for defending is never going to happen.

That being said, they are fixing ressing from dead with the new assaulter mastery so at least that’s something (although this could be released in months from now for all we know).

I’m still waiting for that, it’s going to be gamechanging. Not to mention I heard one of the supposed skills in that line will have you take/destroy all of the enemy player’s supply when you kill them.

JoeVmt.1357:

KrazyKorean.7059:

Downed states in WvW –
This is something that needs to be removed altogether from WvW.

Player versus Door –
Doors should be immune to player damage and siege should be the ONLY answer.

Conclusion –
WvW players effectiveness outside of a zerg is increased. Happiness abounds.

Does a Medic not heal wounded soldiers? [Sure at a slower pace but who got time for that?]

Does an axe not break down doors? [Here’s Johnny!]

Does a small group of soldiers not get wiped by tanks?

This is a war. A war is not won by a small group of soldiers. Its a number game.

This is a video game dude where people shoot fireballz out of their eye sockets. Why can’t I have a magical door that takes magical siege to destroy?

Speaking of war, you should read some history about the Indians, Francis Marion, Merrill’s Marauders, Genghis Khan, stuff like that.

Pavel.5192:

“smaller groups to effectively engage and whittle down larger sized zergs in the field”
hope this will NEVER happen, cause i dont want to see how 5 ppl can slaughter whole zerg, its unreal

If 5 people can slaughter an entire zerg because down state is nerfed or no longer exists than the zerg deserved it and needs to L2P.

I agree that Downed State should be removed. It just makes people want to blob up. No risk, same reward… that sucks for a game mechanic. I would assume that most of the people that design these games are reasonably intelligent. But this makes no sense. None, I mean I’d like to see one reasonable argument that shows how the downed state increases the playability/fun (for both sides) of this game. It simply doesn’t and anyone should be able to see that (again, from both sides).

It’s not like the map is large or anything.

I’m seriously considering dumping this game and moving to ESO because of this philosophy. ESO has a MUCH better mechanic for this and a small force has the ability to hold off a zerg through simple good play and attrition. Yes, you have to run/port back to the fight, but that is much more of a combined interactive (attackers/defenders) system where both benefit from strategy.

GW2 has always been Blobwarzzz. The reward system is made for it, and I hate it. Skill should be the deciding factor, not numbers.

EDIT: Oh, and it REALLY doesn’t make people want to play together when an upleveled individual can rally a bunch of enemies just by being near you. That also makes ZERO sense.

Jski.6180:

Flytrap.8075:

Jski.6180:

A lot of the game is base off that your going to go in down state if it was removed then you would need to scale down every one dmg by a great deal in pvp / wvw setting. One shot kill builds would be way too powerfully. That and you remove a good point for the match sources that havick groups use to show they are being useful to the weeks match. (Also you remove all the cool finisher from the game so they will NEVER remove downed states get that clear in your mind now or your never going to have a good time.)

As for pvd unless you have 40+ ppl attking a door its not going to effect the out come of how fast a door will drop (in that if you have a good number of ppl with you then you can build more rams cat etc.. so for every person you have with you that can attk the door they can also build more making the door drop faster anyway.)

The most reasonable suggestion would be to keep the down state but to implement the Dodgeball Rules that were suggested a while back where one stomp is equal to one rally.

One chase would not be too bad it would changes the game a lot i am not sure if it would fix any of the major problems but it would be fun say if you could mod spvp to have this rule to see if it works out well. As things stand i think its 3 to 4 chases atm. If its just 3 (seeing how humans love 3) that maybe just a stander. I think 2 is a good number of times that you can go down the 3ed is a full down but i feel each time you get back up you should be weaker just a bit and not just less hp.

I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to say.

KrazyKorean.7059:

Pavel.5192:

“smaller groups to effectively engage and whittle down larger sized zergs in the field”
hope this will NEVER happen, cause i dont want to see how 5 ppl can slaughter whole zerg, its unreal

If 5 people can slaughter an entire zerg because down state is nerfed or no longer exists than the zerg deserved it and needs to L2P.

This a thousand times. I honestly can’t undestand why is that some people think that if downed state is gone, zergs will automatically wipe against a handfull of people.

Musty.3148:

EDIT: Oh, and it REALLY doesn’t make people want to play together when an upleveled individual can rally a bunch of enemies just by being near you. That also makes ZERO sense.

So if you think that makes no sense why would you want to abolish downed state, which would make it happen much more frequently?

Zergs can and will wipe against a handful of people, especially when defending.

Case and point, as an Ele, when in a tower, a group of 25 or so approached and dropped rams. For whatever reason they didn’t see me or completely ignored me. Anyways, as a staff Ele running full zerk, I dropped most burst attack on them I could and downed about 10 while killing 2. The rest of the group just stepped in and revived, continued to ram and called it a day.

If downed state was removed and there were now 12 dead enemies instead of 2 the battle becomes that much easier. Once my cooldowns were up and they attempted to continue to ram, there is a decent chance there would have been another 12 dead enemies.

Now add another 3 or 4 to the mix dropping their payload and it should be evidently clear that a small group is easily capable of wiping out a zerg, as long as, downed state didn’t exist.

Sure the zerg could be better coordinated, but lets face facts here 9 times out of 10 they aren’t. Any delay what so ever in an attacking force makes it that much easier for your main force to get to you to defend.

JoeVmt.1357:

KrazyKorean.7059:

Downed states in WvW –
This is something that needs to be removed altogether from WvW.

Player versus Door –
Doors should be immune to player damage and siege should be the ONLY answer.

Conclusion –
WvW players effectiveness outside of a zerg is increased. Happiness abounds.

Does a Medic not heal wounded soldiers? [Sure at a slower pace but who got time for that?]

Medics don’t heal their fallen comrades in the middle of a firestorm in which they themselves are receiving massive trauma. They wait for an opening when enemy fire is suppressed or drag their allie to a relatively safer location before administering first aid. The in-game equivalent of this would be resurrecting a player out of combat.

JoeVmt.1357:

Does an axe not break down doors? [Here’s Johnny!]

Axes break down hollow-core doors made of the cheapest, thinnest particle board the manufacturer can get away with. They don’t chop down steel-clad, two foot thick, massive gates made from hardwood timbers. [Here’s a dose of reality!]

JoeVmt.1357:

Does a small group of soldiers not get wiped by tanks?

Nope. Tanks are artillery, not anti-infantry. Without close infantry support, tanks are actually quite vulnerable to a foot soldier. Do a little googling and wiki-ing. There are plenty of examples of purpose-built sniper rifles designed to penetrate tank armor and send a bullet inside the tank’s compartment to bounce around killing the tank crew, mines, RPGs, and other explosives which permit infantry to take down armor quite easily.

JoeVmt.1357:

This is a war. A war is not won by a small group of soldiers. Its a number game.

This is not war; this is a game. To confuse the two is to have a profound misunderstanding of what war is and what a game is. The former’s goal – as classically defined – is to win at all costs. The latter’s goal is to give paying customers a form of entertainment and recreation. This applies to all the customers; not just a subset who achieve their fun at the expense of others.

When the mechanics of the game begin favoring one subset of players over another as a result of mechanics and/or circumstances not under the direct control of the players, that leads to a loss of entertainment value (i.e. no longer fun).

It may indeed be a numbers game (for the time being). That doesn’t mean it’s fun. This applies to both the outnumbered players and those doing the outnumbering. What’s more fun: engaging other players in roughly equal-numbered fights or so overwhelmingly outnumbering an opponent that there is nothing they can do to counter it (to the point the outnumbered won’t even play)? Some may argue the latter, believing PvDooring the map in the absence of any real players is fun. That’s fine; everyone is entitled to their definition of fun.

However, from a game developer’s standpoint, a game’s success is measured by how many players you’re able to keep in the game, retaining them so they continue paying using whichever business model you’ve settled upon. If players become disgruntled and frustrated with how the game is set up, the developer risks losing them. They either change the game to ensure the goal of entertainment and recreation is being provided to all or they lose players (and revenue).

The developers have already acknowledged in a recent CDI that the domination of coverage is an issue and something they will look into. Given this is ArenaNet we’re talking about, that could be many, many months in the making. But they have at least recognized it as a problem in need of a solution.

To be clear, I’m not against coverage disparities. I accept there will be differences in coverage between servers throughout a 24 hour period. What I’m against is passively rewarding servers points for simply showing up on the map to PvDoor all their opponent’s holdings while the outnumbered opponent has no counter-play options available to them. And, no, recruiting more players is not a counter-play option. Counter-play options are hard-coded mechanics intrinsic to the game available to all players at all times and not reliant on fickle human nature, such as recruiting.

1) You should not be able to rezz a completely dead player while in combat. I hate killing a much larger group with my 5 man team only to have 2 thieves sitting in the back rezzing the completely dead. It’s lame.

2) You should not rally because you threw a single stone at a random nearby mob that died. That’s stupid. Countless times have I fought 2-3 people at once and downed them all only to have a stupid deer walk into the fight and die which then rallies them all. What type of horrendous game mechanic is that? Keep that stuff in PvE and out of WvW.

Carzor Stelatis.9435:

Musty.3148:

EDIT: Oh, and it REALLY doesn’t make people want to play together when an upleveled individual can rally a bunch of enemies just by being near you. That also makes ZERO sense.

So if you think that makes no sense why would you want to abolish downed state, which would make it happen much more frequently?

Wut?

No, with no down state there would BE no rally. Let alone by some upleveled 11 ranger that wanted to “tag along for exp”.

EDIT: I see what you are saying, what I meant is an uplevel taggin along with your group and getting killed thereby rezzing all the enemy you have downed. Sorry I worded it poorly.