Guild Wars 2

I think WvW would be much more competitive and intense if when you’re dead, you’re dead. To account for fall damage or silly scenarios maybe when you die you have 30 seconds til you automatically respawn, but during those 30 seconds an ally that is not in combat can revive you. If they get put in combat the reviving stops and your 30 second timer starts again. Only 1 resurrector at a time max.

Once dead and WP’ed to spawn, your downed penalty lasts 5 minutes, and downed penalty also now prevents WP use except for spawn WPs.

Warrior’s battle standard would still work on NPCs, but not for players. Your friendly pugs (rally bait) may die but at least they will not rally the enemy. When defending a keep it will no longer be a viable tactic to suicide with 30 seconds left on timer to take out siege – that’s a cheap tactic anyway. But that doesn’t mean defending will be harder because if you can pick off enemy players they will have no choice but to run back from spawn.

Currently DPS classes are responsible for most of the reviving by rallying them with kills, and that doesn’t make sense. This would make support classes much more important and create another way that a smaller group can gain an advantage on a bigger group through skill. Currently in 10v20 you can down a few and by the time you reset they are rezzed or bannered or rallied due to an NPC or pug. You can even stomp some of them but as soon as you reset with a water field they can flash-rez 2-3 of them back up with no trouble. You can farm a larger group all day without actually making the group smaller, and eventually they’ll just get into whatever lord’s room they want and cap it since a lord’s room is too small and extremely difficult to effectively fight outnumbered in.

As far as coding/resources all Anet would have to do is remove downed state, skipping straight from 0 health to dead, add a respawn timer that stops when being resurrected, restrict resurrecting to 1 person and require OOC, and then add a WP restriction to downed penalty. It’s actually not much work since rez notification, rez limits, WP restrictions, and OOC restrictions all exist already and are coded, they would just need to be applied.

Thoughts?

inb4 “old idea” I know this is not a new idea just my take on it

That’s because rallying happens from the downed state and not death. Also it’s a good mechanic that enforces personal contribution in large fights because if one of your players goes down it might rally a few enemies. This means that each person has a lot of responsibility to be efficient both in terms of pressure and defense.

Downed state/Rallying is a top 3 issue in WvW. But since it is an ANET implemented idea, somewhat unique in comparison to other games, and caters to bad players who need a crutch to get along….It will not go away.

That said there is little more frustrating then when solo roaming you come across 3-4 enemies, down 1-2 of them and the others just keep reviving the downed ones.

At least slow the revive speed down considerably.

Rallying is not a good mechanic in WvW. It makes it so the few ‘bad’ players can too often determine the outcome of a battle, which is exactly opposite of how it should be.

Also, ambient creatures should not be saving lives.

If a downed state with rally has to be in the game, the penalties upon rallying should be much more significant such as all skills on CD or 50% stat reduction for X seconds or rallying with like 5% health.

Ok OP I was with you until you suggested changes.

I’m absolutely behind reworking downed-state/revives/rally and I agree they are detrimental to WvW.

But your suggestions are bollux. Why would a standard only affect NPCs? What’s the point of having a 5 minute penalty for dying? All that seems unnecessarily harsh for not reason.

Most issues with the aforementioned mechanics are simply fixed by:

• Implement 1 kill = 1 rally mechanic (dodgeball rules).
• No resurrections of defeated players while in combat.
• Slow down the revive speed of downed players.

Those changes alone would fix all the problems with the mechanic without being overly harsh or intrusive or even trying to change the game fundamentally.

It is a good mechanic with some very small drawbacks but Solstice, you’re too busy dissecting the bad to even take note of what it offers.

Quells.2498:

It is a good mechanic with some very small drawbacks but Solstice, you’re too busy dissecting the bad to even take note of what it offers.

It doesn’t offer anything good except a way to get around the fact that we don’t have healers in this game.

Dee Jay.2460:

Quells.2498:

It is a good mechanic with some very small drawbacks but Solstice, you’re too busy dissecting the bad to even take note of what it offers.

It doesn’t offer anything good except a way to get around the fact that we don’t have healers in this game.

Then adapt or keep dying. I’m really not sure what else to tell you. It has lots of benefits but clearly I’m not going to make any ground here. Minds have been made up.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Downed state/Rallying is a top 3 issue in WvW. But since it is an ANET implemented idea, somewhat unique in comparison to other games, and caters to bad players who need a crutch to get along….It will not go away.

That said there is little more frustrating then when solo roaming you come across 3-4 enemies, down 1-2 of them and the others just keep reviving the downed ones.

At least slow the revive speed down considerably.

Umm no. Coordinated groups use the rallying mechanic, often to strong effect. If you solo roam, you cannot effectively use the rally mechanic, and that’s something you have to live with (unless you are a ranger, but not too many of those in wvw these days)

The thing I want anet to do is nerf the rally mechanic for large groups. Limit the number of people rallied per kill would be a good start. 5 closest valid enemies should rally instead of infinite.

Player based rallying is awesome, you can really feel battles turn when organized groups use rally skills to bring up their downed and are able to finish off a few enemies in the meantime and turn that fight around. I feel that fights would be far more bland if the rally mechanic was removed.

My second change would be that dead players slowly lose health if not being ressed and you are not allowed to res fully dead players while in combat. It would remove another funny edge case that I don’t think adds to the depth of the combat system but serves to power zergs.

I believe one of the two things must happen. Ether make a lot longer the time needed to resurrect a downed player, or make a lot shorter the time of stomping.
Just make a thread at balance forum for this, for developers who work at skills/balance to see. I did a thread like this some days ago

Solstice.1097:

Rallying is not a good mechanic in WvW. It makes it so the few ‘bad’ players can too often determine the outcome of a battle, which is exactly opposite of how it should be.

Also, ambient creatures should not be saving lives.

.

Not just ambient, nothing other than players should be at the very least. I also would love to see the animals in wvw being not killable for easy stacking of sigil bonus. You want your sigil bonus good, go and kill players not moa’s.

Dee Jay.2460:

• Implement 1 kill = 1 rally mechanic (dodgeball rules).
• No resurrections of defeated players while in combat.
• Slow down the revive speed of downed players.

I think a 1 Kill = 1-3 rally mech would be fine too.
Just not 1 kill = full zerg rallied.

Quells.2498:

Dee Jay.2460:

Quells.2498:

It is a good mechanic with some very small drawbacks but Solstice, you’re too busy dissecting the bad to even take note of what it offers.

It doesn’t offer anything good except a way to get around the fact that we don’t have healers in this game.

Then adapt or keep dying. I’m really not sure what else to tell you. It has lots of benefits but clearly I’m not going to make any ground here. Minds have been made up.

Adapt to what? Downed-state has been there from the begging. Nothing has changed about it so there’s nothing to adapt to.

Unless you mean simply avoid fighting larger groups, which seems to be what you’re proposing. Which again, makes PvP just bad, let alone not being able to pick your fights.

Just because you don’t have an argument don’t attack those who do.

Draygo.9473:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Downed state/Rallying is a top 3 issue in WvW. But since it is an ANET implemented idea, somewhat unique in comparison to other games, and caters to bad players who need a crutch to get along….It will not go away.

That said there is little more frustrating then when solo roaming you come across 3-4 enemies, down 1-2 of them and the others just keep reviving the downed ones.

At least slow the revive speed down considerably.

Umm no. Coordinated groups use the rallying mechanic, often to strong effect. If you solo roam, you cannot effectively use the rally mechanic, and that’s something you have to live with (unless you are a ranger, but not too many of those in wvw these days)

The thing I want anet to do is nerf the rally mechanic for large groups. Limit the number of people rallied per kill would be a good start. 5 closest valid enemies should rally instead of infinite.

Player based rallying is awesome, you can really feel battles turn when organized groups use rally skills to bring up their downed and are able to finish off a few enemies in the meantime and turn that fight around. I feel that fights would be far more bland if the rally mechanic was removed.

I agree on everything you said, people who complain about downed state are the ones who actully don’t pay enough attention on team work.

I really think rezzing the fully dead in WvW in combat should be eliminated. And if there is an AoE cap, why not a rally cap?

Dee Jay.2460:

Quells.2498:

Dee Jay.2460:

Quells.2498:

It is a good mechanic with some very small drawbacks but Solstice, you’re too busy dissecting the bad to even take note of what it offers.

It doesn’t offer anything good except a way to get around the fact that we don’t have healers in this game.

Then adapt or keep dying. I’m really not sure what else to tell you. It has lots of benefits but clearly I’m not going to make any ground here. Minds have been made up.

Adapt to what? Downed-state has been there from the begging. Nothing has changed about it so there’s nothing to adapt to.

Unless you mean simply avoid fighting larger groups, which seems to be what you’re proposing. Which again, makes PvP just bad, let alone not being able to pick your fights.

Just because you don’t have an argument don’t attack those who do.

Nothing needs to have changed in order for adaptation to take place but I digress. I do have an argument but I also understand the futility of arguing with people who have no intentions of considering anything but their own problems.

I like the downed state idea, but it has issues, it is ridiculous when you kill someone and he hits a dying mob to get up… maybe the rally should be you get up if you kill the one person that downed you or someone else kills the person… I dont think it is fair that you hit someone in the middle of the zerg, than you are downed by other player… for some reason the guy you hit dies… and you are alive!!!

Other issue is it is too fast to recover someone from downed state, it had to be harder at least in WvW.

albotelho.2931:

I like the downed state idea, but it has issues, it is ridiculous when you kill someone and he hits a dying mob to get up… maybe the rally should be you get up if you kill the one person that downed you or someone else kills the person… I dont think it is fair that you hit someone in the middle of the zerg, than you are downed by other player… for some reason the guy you hit dies… and you are alive!!!

Instead perhaps you should gain lifeforce(or what ever you want to call the bar when you are downed) whenever a players you hit dies and it helps you revive instead of insta rally?
Maybe even scale it with healing power or something.

Sounds incredibly boring.

Draygo.9473:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Downed state/Rallying is a top 3 issue in WvW. But since it is an ANET implemented idea, somewhat unique in comparison to other games, and caters to bad players who need a crutch to get along….It will not go away.

That said there is little more frustrating then when solo roaming you come across 3-4 enemies, down 1-2 of them and the others just keep reviving the downed ones.

At least slow the revive speed down considerably.

Umm no. Coordinated groups use the rallying mechanic, often to strong effect. If you solo roam, you cannot effectively use the rally mechanic, and that’s something you have to live with (unless you are a ranger, but not too many of those in wvw these days)

The thing I want anet to do is nerf the rally mechanic for large groups. Limit the number of people rallied per kill would be a good start. 5 closest valid enemies should rally instead of infinite.

Player based rallying is awesome, you can really feel battles turn when organized groups use rally skills to bring up their downed and are able to finish off a few enemies in the meantime and turn that fight around. I feel that fights would be far more bland if the rally mechanic was removed.

I am sorry but rally mechanic is a crutch for bad players plain and simple…It is also a junkpile statement that people use to justify losing fights. I am sorry ANET feels the need to cater to Carebears. If I take on a 1v4 and I down 2 bad players, having the 2 half-decent players “out-rez” them back up before I can:

A. Finish one of the downed
or
B. Kill one of the rezzers

is simply a poor design. The scenarios I am listing really dont matter number-wise, the thing about this game is that most of the numbers translate in applicable ratios anyway. So whether it be 1v2 or 10v20, the higher number will always have the advantage, and not just because of simply having more people, they will also have the advantage due to the downed mechanic as well. The fact of the matter is, that downed state/rallying is just another design that caters to the zergling and punishes the outmanned party in the fight. It allows the larger group to win due to attrition likely just as often as they would win due to skill.

Downed state is OK till the 1st downed, everything that happens after is a meh (rally, hard ress, no auto respawn, Downed penalty)

Dee Jay.2460:

Ok OP I was with you until you suggested changes.

I’m absolutely behind reworking downed-state/revives/rally and I agree they are detrimental to WvW.

But your suggestions are bollux. Why would a standard only affect NPCs? What’s the point of having a 5 minute penalty for dying? All that seems unnecessarily harsh for not reason.

Most issues with the aforementioned mechanics are simply fixed by:

• Implement 1 kill = 1 rally mechanic (dodgeball rules).
• No resurrections of defeated players while in combat.
• Slow down the revive speed of downed players.

Those changes alone would fix all the problems with the mechanic without being overly harsh or intrusive or even trying to change the game fundamentally.

^This^

Bad players should not be shunned away for fear of them rallying the enemy and skilled teams should not have that as an excuse to use if they wipe.

A larger group should not be given an advantage just because they can push “F”

I can’t think of a solution that involves downed state, thus why I suggest just removing the state from WvW and going straight to dead. It would defeat the purpose if you could still insta-hard-rez them so I suggested the OOC requirement and an auto-respawn timer which would prevent dead scouting as well as mesmers being rezzed through doors and/or by stealthed thieves.

I said banners would only affect NPCs because currently they affect NPCs and downed players, with no downed players, that leaves just NPCs. I didn’t suggest a change to banner just pointed that out. It would still be an extremely useful elite skill in WvW to rez lords with.

I wouldn’t mind a compromise, however, where players had a daily “rally” available, where once per day when dead they have 10 seconds to click rally and come back to life. It would have to be once per account I would think as per player may be abused.

Solstice.1097:

Bad players should not be shunned away for fear of them rallying the enemy and skilled teams should not have that as an excuse to use if they wipe.

A larger group should not be given an advantage just because they can push “F”

I can’t think of a solution that involves downed state, thus why I suggest just removing the state from WvW and going straight to dead. It would defeat the purpose if you could still insta-hard-rez them so I suggested the OOC requirement and an auto-respawn timer which would prevent dead scouting as well as mesmers being rezzed through doors and/or by stealthed thieves.

I said banners would only affect NPCs because currently they affect NPCs and downed players, with no downed players, that leaves just NPCs. I didn’t suggest a change to banner just pointed that out. It would still be an extremely useful elite skill in WvW to rez lords with.

I wouldn’t mind a compromise, however, where players had a daily “rally” available, where once per day when dead they have 10 seconds to click rally and come back to life. It would have to be once per account I would think as per player may be abused.

Thing is … rally mechanics is gw2. you cant have gw2 w/o rally, no matter game mode. But some changes must be made. Like no rally for all zerg from 1 dead player, longer ressing while downed and no ressing dead ppl in combat.