Guild Wars 2

Hey guys, I was thinking a lot about it and discuss with WvW MMO vet very often on how GW2 WvW promote and encourage the Zerg.

How Anet could remove the Zerg mentality in their WvW maps ? Is it possible ? Well I think I got an easy solution that would change all the mentality of WvW with a small change.

Solution:

1) AoE damage and CC effect aren’t limited by a target number (5 for most skill atm)
2) AoE healing and boon buffing should stay limited at 5 target.

Explanation:

This small change in the game mechanic will change the philosophy of WvWers. At this moment, small group of 5-10 pro guys cannot kill a group of 30+. Well you’ll tell that is normal, because 30+ guys should win over 5-10 guys. Your wrong and that’s how we need to change this mentality. The 30+ group should fear the 5-10 guys group like a 30+ guys group.

Now, with the limit on AoE effect on damage and CC, the impact of small group on a big group is limited. I remember doing rush with a premade of 5 on a stacked group of 15 from behind. The burst was spread on 15, but if they were 5 they will just melt. The number in the mass mitigate the damage and this is the reason why the biggest group get a big advantage.

But with the change I suggest the group of 5 will get a chance. Here an example:

Situation 1 (Actual game mechanic):

Group 1 (5 roamers)
Group 2 (25 random zerg guys)

The brave roamers group decided to charge the zerg in mind that they could blast enough this group. They ambush the zerg and hit it in the middle to maximise the damage. At the end, they only downed 7 targets due of their AoE limitation and the zerg kill easily the 5 men group because all their attacks hit this small group.

Situation 2 (Solution game mechanic):

Group 1 (5 roamers)
Group 2 (25 random zerg guys)

The brave roamers group decided to charge the zerg in mind that they could blast enough this group. They ambush the zerg and hit it in the middle to maximise the damage. At the end, they downed 18 person of the zerg on the ambush push, and the 7 others flee from seeing this rampage and fear for their precious life.
——————————————

This is just a small example on how this game would be more fun to play and how people would feel less safe in a zerg.

This kind of change will change the way the zerg attack keep and tower. Again a small group could put enough AoE in the door when it break to wipe half of the zerg. It will be harder to cap towers and keep and this will promote their defense.

A lot of people complain that GW2 WvW meta is about zerg vs zerg. The problem is people know that they are protected in a zerg by the AoE limited effect and they use the mass to mitigate the damage. With this change, they won’t be able to hide in the zerg.

What do you think about this change in WvW?

*Note : Downed state is another thing that need to be remove in WvW but this is another thing we shall discuss later.

I agree.

I was trying to advocate this solution for at least six months…

that’s the logical thing to do.

but the problem is technical,
GW2 devs coded all conditions and damage over time in a way that there is a continuous link between the initiator of the attack and the target.

if the initiator of the attack applies might, then the target suffer more damage.
also, if another attacker put similar condition on the target, the stronger condition overrides and the weaker goes to que. this also goes back to the attackers to calculate the damage.

all this generate lots of traffic and server calculations., this is also why there is a cap of 25 condition stacks, because each condition stack is calculated independently and connected to a specific attacker.

now, as we are aware of that, and we all remember the skill lag in WWW when zerg clashes zerg, and that only when each player have to maintain 5*5 matrix of data.
if the AOE cap is removed each player will have to maintain dynamic infinite matrix of data (or at least 100*100). since it is impossible from both server calculation and traffic limits we stuck with AOE cap of 5 people.

but.
if Anet will simply scrap this horrendous mechanism that tie each tic of damage and condition stack back to the source, and will calculate everything ONLY by the state that it was fired. so the server will have to calculate a single number each time, and no additional traffic is involved. then we can
1) remove skill lag
2) remove AOE cap
3) remove condition cap on stacks ( or raise it to 50 or 100 which will solve the condition PVE issue)

and GW2 will be officially the best game on the market…

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

spike build a few superior ac’s atack blob, problem solved

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

I played WvW since day one.. and I remember something called a “turtle tactic” group up as a ball and no one dies because there was no max for aoe heals and buffs… I imagine damage is considered the same thing as heals for the engine (except that one of them is positive and the other is not). Make of that what you will just my 2 cents.

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

This is sad then. All good WvW game didn’t have this AoE Cap. DAOC and Warhammer.

IMO this aoe cap reduce the skill cap between a good group and a mindless zerg.

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

Rendolphe.5086:

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

This is sad then. All good WvW game didn’t have this AoE Cap. DAOC and Warhammer.

IMO this aoe cap reduce the skill cap between a good group and a mindless zerg.

In DAoC the zergs only had the advantage of numbers. However in this game they have the advantage of:

AOE cap (A 5 man team can only put damage into 33% a 15 man group while the 15 man group can put damage int 100% of the 5 man group)
Downed State
Small Maps
Defense points being able to hit one another
Mass Swiftness

Theres so many things that need to be fixed with WvW =(

sjatzkov braskav.3689:

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

I played WvW since day one.. and I remember something called a “turtle tactic” group up as a ball and no one dies because there was no max for aoe heals and buffs… I imagine damage is considered the same thing as heals for the engine (except that one of them is positive and the other is not). Make of that what you will just my 2 cents.

I have also played since day 1 and I remember heals always having max targets. Anyone else remember this? Because I’m fairly certain its always been 5 targets max on all things

Karolis.4261:

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

I agree with you. The thread topic said Remove Zergs, but I think blobbing is the bigger issue. DAoC made you strategically move around in a zerg, far enough apart to not be AoE bombed, but close enough together to keep large scale fights going. The AoE cap cripples WvW in this game, and promotes the blob mentality.

EDIT: To the poster above, several heal effects on Guardian effect the entire zerg, not just 5 people.

Aeonblade.8709:

Karolis.4261:

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

I agree with you. The thread topic said Remove Zergs, but I think blobbing is the bigger issue. DAoC made you strategically move around in a zerg, far enough apart to not be AoE bombed, but close enough together to keep large scale fights going. The AoE cap cripples WvW in this game, and promotes the blob mentality.

EDIT: To the poster above, several heal effects on Guardian effect the entire zerg, not just 5 people.

Name them please.

Rendolphe.5086:

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

This is sad then. All good WvW game didn’t have this AoE Cap. DAOC and Warhammer.

IMO this aoe cap reduce the skill cap between a good group and a mindless zerg.

Pretty much. Unfortunately, the flaws in GW2 WvW are things that can’t be fixed. It’s a shame because without those flaws equal number fights in this game can be really fun. Unfortunately, it’s getting harder and harder to find good fights because almost everyone, and I mean everyone zergs it up.

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Seige lacks an AoE cap, and as someone who’s worked with game engines in the past, it’s all code. An engine isn’t some monolithic piece of hardware that runs the game. It can be edited, tweaked, and changed on a whim. What COULD be an actual problem is package sending between the clients and servers, which would increase tremendously if they were to lift the cap from individuals. It’s all speculation though, I don’t have access to the source code to confirm, obviously.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Seige lacks an AoE cap, and as someone who’s worked with game engines in the past, it’s all code. An engine isn’t some monolithic piece of hardware that runs the game. It can be edited, tweaked, and changed on a whim. What COULD be an actual problem is package sending between the clients and servers, which would increase tremendously if they were to lift the cap from individuals. It’s all speculation though, I don’t have access to the source code to confirm, obviously.

They have stated that their current system could not handle raising the AOE cap for players. Take it up with Anet.

Dynnen.6405:

Aeonblade.8709:

Karolis.4261:

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

I agree with you. The thread topic said Remove Zergs, but I think blobbing is the bigger issue. DAoC made you strategically move around in a zerg, far enough apart to not be AoE bombed, but close enough together to keep large scale fights going. The AoE cap cripples WvW in this game, and promotes the blob mentality.

EDIT: To the poster above, several heal effects on Guardian effect the entire zerg, not just 5 people.

Name them please.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_guardian_skills

Read through them, several of the ones that heal an area, unless specified to a limit of 5 people, heal everyone in the target area. Not just 5 people in the target area.

Also, as it is not quite the same but I feel worth mentioning, some of the shouts that add the Regen boon affect everyone around you, not just 5 people as well.

I am aware however, that boons =/= straight healing, so take that as you may.

I am also aware that some of the abilities that DO only heal 5 allies do not state so, such as Empower in the staff skill set. However, there are others, such as heal area, that I have seen heal more than 5 people myself using the ability.

Oozo.7856:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Dynnen.6405:

They CAN’T remove the AOE cap. Its part of the engine and can’t be changed. They’ve said this plenty of times. If they could change it, at this point its kinda like stealth mechanics…too late to fix it.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Seige lacks an AoE cap, and as someone who’s worked with game engines in the past, it’s all code. An engine isn’t some monolithic piece of hardware that runs the game. It can be edited, tweaked, and changed on a whim. What COULD be an actual problem is package sending between the clients and servers, which would increase tremendously if they were to lift the cap from individuals. It’s all speculation though, I don’t have access to the source code to confirm, obviously.

They have stated that their current system could not handle raising the AOE cap for players. Take it up with Anet.

See, there you go. “Current system” =/= “Engine”.

The current system involves everything, including packages which I already said would be a more likely issue.

EoTM will break up zerging in regular wvw pretty well, server losing bad? Outmanned on all maps? See ya later EoTM here we come.

The blobbing also is in part due to the fact you take 2 steps and you are out of buff/heal range in this game. But as people have noted the 5 people is an engine limit that cannot be altered, not a specific design decision. Which to be honest coming from DAoC that is 10 years old(or more) that had no cap whatsoever seems kind of odd.

In DAoC the heals and buffs had a nice range to promote a more open field combat feel and flow, in GW2 it’s all about stacking up for buffs then pushing in and staying tight. This is due to the no targeted heals and whilst i admire what they have tried to accomplish. I miss the trinity and targeted heals, thats just my personal preference, and when a game comes out that does it right i will be playing it.

One of the key strokes of genius, or luck, for DAoC’s combat mechanics was the healing range being greater than the basic nuke range slightly. This simple mechanic underpinned so much of what was good about DAoC. It meant that the tank classes could push with support from their healers at decent range. And outside of amnesia(which wasnt damage) if you wanted to push up and deal damage on the support classes you would have to pick ur window as a caster to do so.

and of course the CC to give smaller well organised numbers a modicum of a chance against larger numbers.

I played DAoC roaming 8 man on Classic for ages and it was hands down the most fun i had in any PvP environment.

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

The 5 person AoE cap limit needs to be fixed or WvW will always be flawed.

Ozoug.4158:

The 5 person AoE cap limit needs to be fixed or WvW will always be flawed.

Spike build superior AC….

Aeonblade.8709:

Dynnen.6405:

Aeonblade.8709:

Karolis.4261:

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

I agree with you. The thread topic said Remove Zergs, but I think blobbing is the bigger issue. DAoC made you strategically move around in a zerg, far enough apart to not be AoE bombed, but close enough together to keep large scale fights going. The AoE cap cripples WvW in this game, and promotes the blob mentality.

EDIT: To the poster above, several heal effects on Guardian effect the entire zerg, not just 5 people.

Name them please.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_guardian_skills

Read through them, several of the ones that heal an area, unless specified to a limit of 5 people, heal everyone in the target area. Not just 5 people in the target area.

Also, as it is not quite the same but I feel worth mentioning, some of the shouts that add the Regen boon affect everyone around you, not just 5 people as well.

I am aware however, that boons =/= straight healing, so take that as you may.

I am also aware that some of the abilities that DO only heal 5 allies do not state so, such as Empower in the staff skill set. However, there are others, such as heal area, that I have seen heal more than 5 people myself using the ability.

Virtues: 5 targets
Weapon skills: 5 targets
Symbols: 5 targets
Utilites: 5 targets

Which ones specifically were u referring to?

Chorazin.4107:

The blobbing also is in part due to the fact you take 2 steps and you are out of buff/heal range in this game. But as people have noted the 5 people is an engine limit that cannot be altered, not a specific design decision. Which to be honest coming from DAoC that is 10 years old(or more) that had no cap whatsoever seems kind of odd.

In DAoC the heals and buffs had a nice range to promote a more open field combat feel and flow, in GW2 it’s all about stacking up for buffs then pushing in and staying tight. This is due to the no targeted heals and whilst i admire what they have tried to accomplish. I miss the trinity and targeted heals, thats just my personal preference, and when a game comes out that does it right i will be playing it.

One of the key strokes of genius, or luck, for DAoC’s combat mechanics was the healing range being greater than the basic nuke range slightly. This simple mechanic underpinned so much of what was good about DAoC. It meant that the tank classes could push with support from their healers at decent range. And outside of amnesia(which wasnt damage) if you wanted to push up and deal damage on the support classes you would have to pick ur window as a caster to do so.

and of course the CC to give smaller well organised numbers a modicum of a chance against larger numbers.

I played DAoC roaming 8 man on Classic for ages and it was hands down the most fun i had in any PvP environment.

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

WvW should of been an updated version of RvR. Instead we have siege and PvD shoved down our throats, with no attention to actual fighting other people. At this point the game is what is it, a place holder until a real PvP game comes a long. Hurry up Camelot unchained! :pThe devs seem so out of touch on how to make a game fun that I have lost any hope of WvW being more than zergfest.

So close A-net, better luck next time.

Aeolus.3615:

Ozoug.4158:

The 5 person AoE cap limit needs to be fixed or WvW will always be flawed.

Spike build superior AC….

Arrow Carts are terrible. Siege is unfun. Don’t want to use siege to make up for the fact that WvW is broken.

Dynnen.6405:

Aeonblade.8709:

Dynnen.6405:

Aeonblade.8709:

Karolis.4261:

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

I agree with you. The thread topic said Remove Zergs, but I think blobbing is the bigger issue. DAoC made you strategically move around in a zerg, far enough apart to not be AoE bombed, but close enough together to keep large scale fights going. The AoE cap cripples WvW in this game, and promotes the blob mentality.

EDIT: To the poster above, several heal effects on Guardian effect the entire zerg, not just 5 people.

Name them please.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_guardian_skills

Read through them, several of the ones that heal an area, unless specified to a limit of 5 people, heal everyone in the target area. Not just 5 people in the target area.

Also, as it is not quite the same but I feel worth mentioning, some of the shouts that add the Regen boon affect everyone around you, not just 5 people as well.

I am aware however, that boons =/= straight healing, so take that as you may.

I am also aware that some of the abilities that DO only heal 5 allies do not state so, such as Empower in the staff skill set. However, there are others, such as heal area, that I have seen heal more than 5 people myself using the ability.

Virtues: 5 targets
Weapon skills: 5 targets
Symbols: 5 targets
Utilites: 5 targets

Which ones specifically were u referring to?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heal_Area

I already gave you an example with the Heal Area skill. It has been a long time since I have used it, so there is a chance I could be wrong on this at this point, as the GW2 Wiki is less than helpful with it’s skill descriptions. But I am fairly certain it does, or at least used to heal more than 5 targets in said area.

I’ll test out which abilities do and do not affect more than 5 targets tonight just to be sure, and I’ll get back to you. You might be right on this.

Dynnen.6405

Its never hit more than 5. Maybe you hit virtue of resolve at the same time and you saw more than 5 targets being healed?

That is a good possibility. Like I said, I’ll look into it when I get off work and let you know what I find out. I’m not always right, and I have been known to make mistakes in my lifetime haha.

Chorazin.4107:

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

I have seen that specific video before in this type of discussion and its a ridiculous comparison. Seriously, its a matter of precision. That video just shows how bloody low res old MMOs are – and I’m not talking about graphics. I’m talking about the core math behind everything. The most obvious thing being detail in movement. GW2 is 100x more detailed in how a character behaves, compared to your moving sticks with nametags and a static animation with flailing legs. This is going to be reflected in the netcode as well.

Hell, even the numbers in that video is small compared to the megablobs seen in WvW, where a battle between all 3 servers can cover the entire width of the area between east bay and garrison and last 20 minutes.

Comparing GW2 to DoAC and saying “if they did it why cant you, its almost the same game!” is a bloody insult to the developers and the achievement that is fluid WvW.

Ozoug.4158:

Aeolus.3615:

Ozoug.4158:

The 5 person AoE cap limit needs to be fixed or WvW will always be flawed.

Spike build superior AC….

Arrow Carts are terrible. Siege is unfun. Don’t want to use siege to make up for the fact that WvW is broken.

Siege can be fun as is the only way to beat those blobs, castle/map design is bad, and yes WvW is broken by many, many aspects of the game mechanics.

Dawdler.8521:

Chorazin.4107:

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

I have seen that specific video before in this type of discussion and its a ridiculous comparison. Seriously, its a matter of precision. That video just shows how bloody low res old MMOs are – and I’m not talking about graphics. I’m talking about the core math behind everything. The most obvious thing being detail in movement. GW2 is 100x more detailed in how a character behaves, compared to your moving sticks with nametags and a static animation with flailing legs. This is going to be reflected in the netcode as well.

Hell, even the numbers in that video is small compared to the megablobs seen in WvW, where a battle between all 3 servers can cover the entire width of the area between east bay and garrison and last 20 minutes.

Comparing GW2 to DoAC and saying “if they did it why cant you, its almost the same game!” is a bloody insult to the developers and the achievement that is fluid WvW.

If GW2 played like DaoC but with GW2 graphics and character movements, it would be a much much better game.

The fact that the designers of this game didn’t have the foresight to realize that the way they’re making the game, the way things work, would only allow AE spells to hit 5 targets shows that WvW was an afterthought.

Issues like the AE cap need to be designed around. If the game can’t handle AEs hitting more than 5 targets, then it wasn’t designed properly. GW2 is flawed to it’s core because of this.

Ozoug.4158:

(…)
Issues like the AE cap need to be designed around. If the game can’t handle AEs hitting more than 5 targets, then it wasn’t designed properly. GW2 is flawed to it’s core because of this.

^Touche

:(was about to put a picture of that Touche cartoon but that would get thread lock or get me banned…)

Am I the only one who feels that zerging has nothing to do with the 5-man caps for AOE/buffs? Maybe my server is different, but over here, we have basically three kinds of groups: roamers, guild zergs, and pub zergs.

Roamers cap a camp or maybe even a tower every now and then, skirmish with other roaming groups, and get wiped by zergs. Not a lot of people roam because there’s not much reward for it (can’t cap big things or as fast as a zerg), and if you really want to fight in small groups, SPvP is a better place to do that.

Guild zergs do two things: fight other zergs, and cap everything from camps to stonemist. And the latter is usually just a way to get to the former. I would call it “riding the bag train,” as bags are what they’re concerned with for the most part.

Last, and anything but least, are the pub zergs. By far most players on my server fall into this category. They do one thing, and one thing only—follow the public commanders who drive the karma train. Basically, it’s flip camps, flip towers, flip keeps, etc., as long as we don’t ever upgrade them, because that would slow down the karma gain. The whole idea of PPT is lost as the reward for defending anything in WvW is less karma (as opposed to being on the karma train) and less money/loot (upgrades aren’t free, you aren’t completing as many events, and not killing as many champions). Naturally, the bigger the karma train, the more desirable it is to be on, as the PvD goes faster (you have more total supply to build siege, and more people to DPS the door down after siege is built).

Basically, the reward for roaming in a small group just isn’t there. The band-aid “fix” (i.e. Righteous Indignation) just serves to redirect or slightly slow the karma train, and not to encourage roaming.

Dawdler.8521:

Chorazin.4107:

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

I have seen that specific video before in this type of discussion and its a ridiculous comparison. Seriously, its a matter of precision. That video just shows how bloody low res old MMOs are – and I’m not talking about graphics. I’m talking about the core math behind everything. The most obvious thing being detail in movement. GW2 is 100x more detailed in how a character behaves, compared to your moving sticks with nametags and a static animation with flailing legs. This is going to be reflected in the netcode as well.

Hell, even the numbers in that video is small compared to the megablobs seen in WvW, where a battle between all 3 servers can cover the entire width of the area between east bay and garrison and last 20 minutes.

Comparing GW2 to DoAC and saying “if they did it why cant you, its almost the same game!” is a bloody insult to the developers and the achievement that is fluid WvW.

Fluid WWW? Plz… You call those “megablobs” clashing into each other facerolling their keyboards, causing all the skill lag (because obviously game cant handle that) fluid gameplay?

Removing Zerg mechanics would be as easy as adding more capture points and making it harder to go from on to the other. As it stands, one zerg with a decent commander can pretty much hold Garrison, Hills, and Bay. Make that not possible.

Guys… Even though you keep posting ideas on how zergs could be stopped, it wont help. Anet doesn’t care. It gets people to pay for gems to xfer to high servers because they think they’ll have fun and be good, then it gets them to pay to xfer off.

Orum.6597:

Am I the only one who feels that zerging has nothing to do with the 5-man caps for AOE/buffs? Maybe my server is different, but over here, we have basically three kinds of groups: roamers, guild zergs, and pub zergs.

Roamers cap a camp or maybe even a tower every now and then, skirmish with other roaming groups, and get wiped by zergs. Not a lot of people roam because there’s not much reward for it (can’t cap big things or as fast as a zerg), and if you really want to fight in small groups, SPvP is a better place to do that.

Guild zergs do two things: fight other zergs, and cap everything from camps to stonemist. And the latter is usually just a way to get to the former. I would call it “riding the bag train,” as bags are what they’re concerned with for the most part.

Last, and anything but least, are the pub zergs. By far most players on my server fall into this category. They do one thing, and one thing only—follow the public commanders who drive the karma train. Basically, it’s flip camps, flip towers, flip keeps, etc., as long as we don’t ever upgrade them, because that would slow down the karma gain. The whole idea of PPT is lost as the reward for defending anything in WvW is less karma (as opposed to being on the karma train) and less money/loot (upgrades aren’t free, you aren’t completing as many events, and not killing as many champions). Naturally, the bigger the karma train, the more desirable it is to be on, as the PvD goes faster (you have more total supply to build siege, and more people to DPS the door down after siege is built).

Basically, the reward for roaming in a small group just isn’t there. The band-aid “fix” (i.e. Righteous Indignation) just serves to redirect or slightly slow the karma train, and not to encourage roaming.

Roaming get you the best reward in the game and by far.

When you roam in EB, just kill all the guard on the way you pass, so when the zerg will cap it later you will get the cap and the points. So you are really more effective then a zerg, because you get guard killing, cap and all the supply camp you ’’steal’’ from the karma train.

Anyway, rewards aren’t the motivation to roam. There is a lot of people that need that carrot at the end of the stick to force them to do PvP. They don’t do WvW because they like it, but to grind mindlessly in karma train … (i.e. Righteous Indignation)

My post is to give more power to roamers, as it should be in every good WvW game. For now, the limit on AoE act like a damage mitigation through a big group.

Dawdler.8521:

I have seen that specific video before in this type of discussion and its a ridiculous comparison. Seriously, its a matter of precision. That video just shows how bloody low res old MMOs are – and I’m not talking about graphics. I’m talking about the core math behind everything. The most obvious thing being detail in movement. GW2 is 100x more detailed in how a character behaves, compared to your moving sticks with nametags and a static animation with flailing legs. This is going to be reflected in the netcode as well.

Hell, even the numbers in that video is small compared to the megablobs seen in WvW, where a battle between all 3 servers can cover the entire width of the area between east bay and garrison and last 20 minutes.

Comparing GW2 to DoAC and saying “if they did it why cant you, its almost the same game!” is a bloody insult to the developers and the achievement that is fluid WvW.

DAoC had crazy megablobs, hell it was the game that started it, and it was not without issues just like GW2 when the megablobs got stupendously large. But overall it handled it much better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkl_fAjmLmA
And im sorry but fluid GW2 zerg warfare, maybe im playing a different game but i lag all over the place and the most success i have is pushing 1, even Jesus cant get off his abilities in massive zerg fights.

Yes the animation and graphics isnt the best for DAoC(all rendered locally) but it’s what 10 yo+, and whats that got to do with netcode? You could run forward, strafe, jump, all had its own animation just like GW2.

Where GW2 differs is the amount of co-ordinate checking id imagine due to all the leaps/rushes and ‘action based’ MMO combat maneuvres. You would want something inbetween an old school MMO like DAoC and a modern FPS.

This works great in sPvP which is where this game really shines, it’s just i dont dig sPvP overly much and coming from DAoC i prefer the open field WvW battles. As do a lot of people apparently.

But that was the key of building a combat engine based around RvR(large numbers open field warfare) and not sPvP(small numbers action based combat).

DAoC had it’s problems sure, but for what it was, when it was, to say anything other than praise is a bloody insult to the developers and the achievement that is fluid WvW(RvR).

Here is your solution!
Get out of wvw and go play pvp!
All the small team you can handle!
Not everyone wants to have small scale battles all the time.
In fact, most people that play wvw want zerg vs zerg.
Get over it.

Lalangamena.3694:

I agree.

I was trying to advocate this solution for at least six months…

that’s the logical thing to do.

but the problem is technical,
GW2 devs coded all conditions and damage over time in a way that there is a continuous link between the initiator of the attack and the target.

if the initiator of the attack applies might, then the target suffer more damage.
also, if another attacker put similar condition on the target, the stronger condition overrides and the weaker goes to que. this also goes back to the attackers to calculate the damage.

all this generate lots of traffic and server calculations., this is also why there is a cap of 25 condition stacks, because each condition stack is calculated independently and connected to a specific attacker.

now, as we are aware of that, and we all remember the skill lag in WWW when zerg clashes zerg, and that only when each player have to maintain 5*5 matrix of data.
if the AOE cap is removed each player will have to maintain dynamic infinite matrix of data (or at least 100*100). since it is impossible from both server calculation and traffic limits we stuck with AOE cap of 5 people.

but.
if Anet will simply scrap this horrendous mechanism that tie each tic of damage and condition stack back to the source, and will calculate everything ONLY by the state that it was fired. so the server will have to calculate a single number each time, and no additional traffic is involved. then we can
1) remove skill lag
2) remove AOE cap
3) remove condition cap on stacks ( or raise it to 50 or 100 which will solve the condition PVE issue)

and GW2 will be officially the best game on the market…

GIVE THIS MAN A MEDAL PLEASE HE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!

also to all these people saying you cannot remove AOE restrictions due to engine that is bogus. The game was released without AOE restrictions and the “lag” generated from it actually was not as bad as people claim to say it was. (I got about 10 frames per second on my old crappy computer in a huge blob vs blob)
Particle effects can be blamed MUCH more than the calculations (mere bytes of data) that wvw servers must deal with every server tick.

People are afraid of the removal of the AOE cap. This is not a taboo. it can still be changed. Anet should be looking at the removal of AOE cap as a goal to strive for because if they can do that without any “lag” then the reward for their effort would be amazing.
I for one hate that there is random choosing of who gets hit by these AOEs rather than the cap itself (because I have adapted). The RNG aspect of who lives and who dies just kittenes me off because it could be the difference between melting the zerker ele trying to cast meteor shower, and hitting the useless pug that is wearing full sent and clicks his skills to cast.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Here is your solution!
Get out of wvw and go play pvp!
All the small team you can handle!
Not everyone wants to have small scale battles all the time.
In fact, most people that play wvw want zerg vs zerg.
Get over it.

DAoC was balanced around 8 man. The only advantage a zerg had was numbers.
This is the correct way to balance it.

No aoe cap, huge maps, not that many waypoints, your faction gained access to a dungeon if you controlled most of the keeps (this ate away at zerg sizes). Just about everything in that game took away from the zergs. It forced them to play smart. They had to spread out and push at the right time while protecting their main DPSers/bombers/healers.

This game its all “STACK STACK STACK, OK MIGHT STACK MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT, PUSH PUSH PUSH, DOUBLE DODGE DOUBLE DODGE, WATER FIELD BLAST BLAST, OMG BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB, WTF WHY DON’T YOU LISTEN?!?!?!”

You can’t tell me that listening to ^THAT^ kitten and spamming auto attacks is fun. Double dodge in small man and you’re dead, double dodge in zerg and you’re fine. Makes sense…

Honestly I’m on the fence here.
On one side, I like running with 20-30 and facing greater numbers, as well as an equal force.
On the other, it does bother me that numbers will win pretty much everytime. I think removing the aoe cap will incentivize small groups to the point where it would be unwise to run with anything greater then ~15.
I want to have huge clashes of carnage.
I dont want to be forced to pvp like scale and pace.

The best possible solution, one that should have been included with the launch of the game, is gvg. It was such a huge thing in gw1 that it practically made the game. I think many of the people that wvw are looking for the gvg answer somewhere but just dont find it. Of course there is the unofficial gvg tourney thing, but a lot of people either arent that competetive or are looking for something more casual in gaming.

Btw not all drivers shout and repeat like idiots.
Raising the condition cap to 50 or 100 is a very bad idea. Fine for pve, but thats pve.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Here is your solution!
Get out of wvw and go play pvp!
All the small team you can handle!
Not everyone wants to have small scale battles all the time.
In fact, most people that play wvw want zerg vs zerg.
Get over it.

Did I force anyone here to do small scale roaming with the solution I propose ? No. For sure the zerger will feel uncomfortable, because the mass will not act like a meat shield on him.

‘’In fact, most people that play WvW want zerg vs zerg.’’ Well they can still do their thing and karma train, but I would like to have the ability to wreck a karma train with 10 guys. At this point now with the AoE cap, you dumb the skill level of the game really low, and it’s bad, because WvW in GW2 could be much better then what we’ve got now.

Even the zerg will need to be more strategic in a Zerg vs Zerg. If you bring this new mechanic, the zerg will need to split to be more effective in combat.

Capping a tower or a castle with this new mechanic will be a real achievement now, because the commander will probably need to access the objective into 2 or 3 way to split the AoE.

If the enemy team turtle, then use Siege (Without AoE cap) and push progressively. If you look at the history, a real siege was all about patience and opportunism. Not just bang the door and run through arrow cart like nothing happened.

Video-lag induced queue vs queue isn’t fun. Winning and getting loot is. When the skill lag kicks in, then it’s not fun at all. Those are the issues.

Having less people out in open-field combat would reduce this, but to do that, they need to have something else they can fight for. That’s what the quaggan nodes did. But bloodlust didn’t make it any easier. It just made defense easier, because losing siege to lightning was a problem. And losing camps to npcs was also a problem. The bloodlust should unlock something other than raw stats for the server. Or you could have underground areas on the map for maze like battles that we used to enjoy in Obsidian Sanctum. Kiting to choke-points is one of the only options an out-numbered server can do right now, but there’s not enough of them to balance it out. Being able to cross distances without just waypointing or jumping off a cliff should also be made available. Suchas those teleporters in skyhammer, or jump plates at tequatl. You could put stuff like that near bloodlust, and random places that can only be unlocked if you own things near them.

Chorazin.4107:

Yes the animation and graphics isnt the best for DAoC(all rendered locally) but it’s what 10 yo+, and whats that got to do with netcode? You could run forward, strafe, jump, all had its own animation just like GW2.

I mean on the whole and in terms of amounts and precision of these thing – not just the fact they exist.

As a comparison, ~17s into that video the player is targetted by what I presume is a ranged attack. Its simple, it goes from Player A to Player B. Its just a local render thing. DAoC has lots of such attacks right? Its hard to tell in the video and I never played it. I cant even see any ground AoE, just player targetted attacks.

Sure in GW2 you have simple attacks like that as well, but there are more complicated ones. Compare in GW2 when a Mesmer toss a ranged attack such as a iWarlock which has its own location, direction, a tiny bit of AI, health, etc. That alot of things transmitted over the network even if its seemingly simple. Then that phantasm will fire a physical projectile which also has its own location, direction, speed, damage depending on boons of the target it may hit, etc. That projectile is obviously also checked against if a player dodges (or if anyone cross its path for that matter).

So the Mesmer and of course Necro is actually a pretty decent examples of how you cant compare them. Each of them in terms of network load probably equal 10-15 daoc player characters. Even the Guardian has complex summons.

Hell if you really think about it, not even melee weapons in GW2 is player targetted – they are AoE. Which means alot of calculations and checks against other players based on what’s in front of you.

Do we really want to remove all that for the sake of having more AoE targets? Even if we could get 1000 players into a border running around with a melee weapon that can only hit whatever is targetted even if its there are 5 more players standing in front of you kind of goes against the point.

However… If you where to say that some attacks could be tweaked in terms of the amount of people they can hit, then yes I can agree with that. Arrowcarts definetly need to have their limit reduced to 5 while some player AoE attacks should have it increased to 10.

“As a comparison, ~17s into that video the player is targetted by what I presume is a ranged attack. Its simple, it goes from Player A to Player B. Its just a local render thing. DAoC has lots of such attacks right? Its hard to tell in the video and I never played it. I cant even see any ground AoE, just player targetted attacks.”

DaoC has both ground target and AoE attacks that don’t need a target. Not all skills are targeted.

“As a comparison, ~17s into that video the player is targetted by what I presume is a ranged attack. Its simple, it goes from Player A to Player B.”

-And what is wrong with that? That is how it should be. Take a guardian sceptre autoattack if they’re casting it on me, I literally just have to strafe right and left(tap q and e) and every single attack with sail past me. Just another broken mechanic, which works well for PvE, but not for PvP. This once again shows that WvW was an afterthought.

“Sure in GW2 you have simple attacks like that as well, but there are more complicated ones. Compare in GW2 when a Mesmer toss a ranged attack such as a iWarlock which has its own location, direction, a tiny bit of AI, health, etc. That alot of things transmitted over the network even if its seemingly simple. Then that phantasm will fire a physical projectile which also has its own location, direction, speed, damage depending on boons of the target it may hit, etc. That projectile is obviously also checked against if a player dodges (or if anyone cross its path for that matter).”

-In DaoC there was a class, the animist, that could castup to 20 pets, that are placed with a ground target. These pets would attack targets on their own, and had their own health bars. That’s a lot of things being transmitted over the network, even if it’s seemingly simple.

“Hell if you really think about it, not even melee weapons in GW2 is player targetted – they are AoE. Which means alot of calculations and checks against other players based on what’s in front of you.”

-DaoC also had melee attacks, that could hit as many targets in range, and didn’t need a target.

“Do we really want to remove all that for the sake of having more AoE targets? Even if we could get 1000 players into a border running around with a melee weapon that can only hit whatever is targetted even if its there are 5 more players standing in front of you kind of goes against the point.”

-In a word. Yes.
I would give up everything that makes GW2 not able to hit more than 5 targets(pets included) in exchange for the ability to hit as many targets as are in my AoE. Granted you nor I don’t know for sure what changes would need to be made, maybe barely anything needs to be changed.

One other thing that makes me feel like GW2 took a step back from DaoC (10+ year old game) is the combat log. Right now in WvW all I get is Blackgate invader hits you for yadda yadda, or you hit blackgate invader for yadda yadda. In DaoC the combat log told you everything you did. You healed (persons name) for this much, you hit (enemys name) for this much. You interupted (persons name) You killed (persons name). You rezzed (persons name) You casted such and such spell. You want to know what happened in a fight? Check the log. GW2 log is sadly incomplete.

Furthermore, there are a ridiculous amount of skills and buttons to push in DaoC, compared to very little in GW2. My ele (class with the most skills in the game) has 21 to cast at any given time. In DaoC it was not uncommon to have upwards of 50 skills on your hotbars.

DaoC was a better PvP game, and GW2 would do it self a favor by stealing the good things about RvR, instead of the crap.

no aoe cap? enjoy retaliation then

I have a better idea, a health debuff if your group runs more than 30 within a cetain radius

Dynnen.6405:

Aeonblade.8709:

Dynnen.6405:

Aeonblade.8709:

Karolis.4261:

Aeonblade.8709:

I do not think they should remove zerg combat, but it would be nice if the AoE cap was removed and 10-15 had a chance against 20-25.

WvW was meant for large scale combat, and they already have stated they won’t be changing that. However, I would not be adverse to doubling the AoE cap from 5 to 10 to give superior players a chance against more numbers.

Zerg =/= blob. Gw2 doesn’t have issues with zerging, Gw2 has issues with blobing. In every other mmorpg i played, players were directly punished for stacking up. Take “Rift” conquest for example- total zerg fest: but players that were stacking up was getting totally wiped by groups that spread out in the field, circle them up and fry their blob with aoes till the y get nice and crispy and thats how it should be.

I agree with you. The thread topic said Remove Zergs, but I think blobbing is the bigger issue. DAoC made you strategically move around in a zerg, far enough apart to not be AoE bombed, but close enough together to keep large scale fights going. The AoE cap cripples WvW in this game, and promotes the blob mentality.

EDIT: To the poster above, several heal effects on Guardian effect the entire zerg, not just 5 people.

Name them please.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_guardian_skills

Read through them, several of the ones that heal an area, unless specified to a limit of 5 people, heal everyone in the target area. Not just 5 people in the target area.

Also, as it is not quite the same but I feel worth mentioning, some of the shouts that add the Regen boon affect everyone around you, not just 5 people as well.

I am aware however, that boons =/= straight healing, so take that as you may.

I am also aware that some of the abilities that DO only heal 5 allies do not state so, such as Empower in the staff skill set. However, there are others, such as heal area, that I have seen heal more than 5 people myself using the ability.

Virtues: 5 targets
Weapon skills: 5 targets
Symbols: 5 targets
Utilites: 5 targets

Which ones specifically were u referring to?

Guardian staff skill 4 (empower)

WvW=Large Scale Battles aka Zergs, simply remove ressing while in combat and forced respawn when you die xtimes in a short period

Offair.2563:

WvW=Large Scale Battles aka Zergs, simply remove ressing while in combat and forced respawn when you die xtimes in a short period

You will still see big group with this mechanic, but maybe they wouldn’t stack as much as now.

This mechanic will give a chance to skilled group of 10 guys to wipe a zerg of 40.

A coordinated group of 40 will not failed against a group of 10 with this new mechanic, because they will split to avoid bomb burst. With the current mechanic, the group of 40 don’t mind of the bomb zerg because the number will mitigate the AoE (AoE max 5 target).

It’s just to easy now and people stack mindlessly into zerg.

Maybe the tittle is misleading, but the concept is there.

Rendolphe obviously knows what hes talking about over little zergers. I cant believe anet cannot see past the terribly obvious that they should not be balancing around the bad players but rather around the ones like Rendolphe and other players that practice organized teamwork.
Im getting sick of peoples only excuses for not having a counter to zergs being “well its called WvW its meant to be massive battles go to spvp”
This isnt a good enough excuse. If we wanted to play sumo wresting we would go play god kitten sumo wrestling. Some people actually enjoy the random encounter and threat of outnumbered fights on an open map (AMAZINGLY ENOUGH!) The problem with this is not the zergs, its the mechanics allowing the zergs to gain waayy too much from them. Sure I can avoid a zerg but its not fair they have every advantage in the world on top of numbers. Wouldnt you agree that balance would be a fair playing field for both sides and the imbalance should ONLY come from numbers and tactics? of course it should. AOE caps, res mechanics and all that other crap is only hindering skill play. We arent talking about nerfing zergs… This is about making them feel a little less invincible because they know a 5 or 10 man can send them back to spawn in a body bag.