Guild Wars 2

I have been lurking on the forums for a few days, and it looks like almost everyone who does not main a Thief is asking for a nerf of the so-called “perma stealth thief”.
Now, I main an Ele and have just started a Thief whom I use in sPvP mostly, just to learn the basics of the class.
I would like to share my thought (and my experience) with you, so that every Elementalist could learn how to approach an encounter with a thief in WvWvW correctly. Not only that: what I am about to write will be of help to many people, not only Eles.

Now, why do thieves annoy other classes so much?
Easily answered: because of stealth.
Stealth removes conditions.
Stealth grants regen.
Stealth enables the thief to reset the fight whenever he wants.
Stealth makes the opponent to lose the lock on the thief.
Stealth enables the average thief to backstab enemies, dealing a huge amount of damage.
Stealth enables the thief to perform the finisher without worrying much about the downed player actions.
Stealth enables the thief to resurrect its allies (to an extent).

To cut it short, stealth is OP.
Correct. To me, at least: an average/good perma-stealth thief IS able to take down small groups of 3+ people, provided he doesn’t make mistakes and makes good use of their stealth/disables during takedowns.

So, in order to increase the chances of beating a thief, you should put him in a position when he cannot use stealth.
Stealth traps are NOT the way to go: they are too expensive and they do not assure your kill, since a good thief could still get away after activating a trap.
My solution is Water. Water combat, to be precise.

Some of the best weapons an Elementalist has, are his Trident skills.
As an Elementalist, you can kill almost every class during water combat, because you have some of the best single target CC skills in the entire game when it comes to water combat.
Use Arcane Shield as soon as the enemy touches water, so that you won’t be killed if you are close to death.
Air #4 combined with Earth #4 are amazing at rendering the enemy target incapacitated for 2-3 seconds. You could also add Air #5 for 2 more seconds of stun. In the meantime, nuke your target down with Air #2, Fire #2 and Fire #4. And if the enemies tries to run away, just use Earth #3 to close your distance, paired with a quick Earth #5 to blind him for a few seconds. You could also use your elite after Earth #3, to finish him in a cool way.
And guess what? In water, thieves cannot use stealth. So they will not be able to cleanse their conditions, they will not be able to escape and they will not be able to counter your combos.

Roaming thieves can be a pain to deal with, right, so you must avoid fights in the open.
If you spot a thief coming at you, start running towards the nearest water pool. In order to do that, i usually roam with a build like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJArYhImebuxywjFAkCmEKQwoQIiCWUegzM2A

Pay attention to the traits “Final Shielding” from Arcane 10 and “Earth’s Embrace” from Earth 10: with those 2 traits, you WILL be able to cast FGS to quickly escape the fight. I use FGS ONLY to run away. You could also use RTL (the nerf was huge, but remember that you can cast it on ambient animals too, which are killed in one shot and do not draw aggro, halving the cooldown).
If you get stunlocked, use Signet of Air. If you are incapacitated, switch to water attunement. If you get incapacitated again just evade (Evasive Arcana will cast Cleansing Wave automatically, curing a condition). If immobilized WHEN in Water attunement, use Cleansing Wave.
If FGS is in cooldown and the water pool is far away, odds are against you. The best way to escape if the thief is running at you, though, would be a quick RTL (hopefully to an ambient animal) (remember to ALWAYS stay in Air Attunement when roaming) then pop Earth #2 for extra protection and, if he manages to shorten the distance between you, pop to water, Evade, Heal, Water #4, then go to fire and cast a Phoenix (which grants extra Vigor). Unfortunately, as an Elementalist, there is very little you can do against a SKILLED thief (I have won many fights against weak ones, but recently I have been starting to avoid any sort of combat with thieves.

If the thief is so greedy as to follow you in the water, then nuke him down. If he doesn’t then you are alive (at least).
They say that Thieves are always in a win-win situation, because either they kill their opponents or they escape the fight through stealth.
I’d say that, as an Ele, we too are always in a win-win situation, because either we escape the fight (through FGS) or we kill the thief underwater.

So, yes: if you see a thief, start running, either towards water (in which you could kill the thief) or towards one of your outposts or comrades (if you have any).
The worst case scenario would be if you are near the north-eastern corner of each Borderlands or EB, which is far from water, in a location which is completely controlled by the enemy. But in this situation, if you get killed, you are the only one to blame, since it is not safe to wander carelessly in enemy territory in WvW.

TL;DR: if you are an Ele and see a thief, start running towards the nearest water pool. If the thief follows you, he is dead. If he doesn’t you are still alive.

Hope it helps you guys. I still believe stealth is really powerful in this game, especially in 1v1-1v2 fights, but don’t forget that thieves still have many weaknesses which you can exploit by fighting them underwater. I have never EVER lost a fight underwater against a thief, whereas I have a hard time in sPvP when I have to kill someone underwater when I am using my thief alt.

Not sure if this is serious. Thief underwater is terrible and a waste of time. On my thief I never fight underwater and always leave the water ASAP with speargun 5 shadowsteps. Then again I don’t really focus on killing or chasing people 1v1 either.

Thief underwater is just as bad as perma stealth on land.

Evade
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TL;DR don’t even bother with thieves and their op stealth and burst. Water combat is better !!!

Caffynated.5713:

Thief underwater is just as bad as perma stealth on land.

Evade
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This. It’s just pressing 5,5,5,5,5 instead of 2,2,2,2,2 though, so pretty hard for a lot of thieves to master.

So the proposed solution, to a problem that isn’t really all that bad, is ‘run for the nearest pool of water’? o.O Is this fo serious?

When I play my Ele, I ALWAYS try to drag a fight into water if I can, whatever class I’m facing.

If the guy has any sense at all, he avoids it. You do NOT want to fight an Ele underwater.

to get any of those benefits you have to invest heavily into shadow arts. 30 points for regen.

OP

You’re the 1,000+ person to confirm and not be in-denial of theif being OP because of their Intentionally OP Reward Mechanic; Stealth.

I’m glad you’re able to come about this strategy as an Elementalist against OP thief.

I Hope you keep it up..

I Hope all goes well in your favor.

It does get boring of all the people that constantly cry about stealth being a broken mechanic. STEALTH IS NOT INVINCIBILITY. Use your head a little bit and place down some aoe or set up for their next attack so you can lock them down.

Personally as a D/D ele I find that I never lose against thieves! Their attack patterns are just too predictable. Using shocking aura just after they go into stealth means they either have to wait out their time or attack you and become stunned allowing you to dish out more damage, use updraft for the knockdown, switch to fire for the burst then switch to earth and keep them in place with magnetic grasp (just first part of the skill) then if they re stealth or use shadow refuge aoe the kitten out of that area and prepare for their next attack with frost/shocking aura so they can’t get away. Be aggressive don’t just keep backing up and running away.

When they go stealthed don’t just give up and think ‘doh they are there I can’t attack them.’ Even on my guardian I don’t feel like thieves are a threat, are people that constantly moan about them being ‘OP’ little cry babies that get jumped by them and due to lack of skill can’t learn how to deal with them?

They are one of the most predictable classes to duel!

Caffynated.5713:

Thief underwater is just as bad as perma stealth on land.

Evade
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Mmm. Someone missed the patch notes.

Immolator.5640:

So the proposed solution, to a problem that isn’t really all that bad, is ‘run for the nearest pool of water’? o.O Is this fo serious?

I am dead serious, yes.
If you are good at countering thieves on land, please, do so.

My “guide” is for those who have problems against perma stealth thieves. Shift the fight into water, and watch as your enemy melts.
Thieves are the worst class when it comes to water combat. Crappy range, no defense, no condition cleaning.

hihey.1075:

Immolator.5640:

So the proposed solution, to a problem that isn’t really all that bad, is ‘run for the nearest pool of water’? o.O Is this fo serious?

I am dead serious, yes.
If you are good at countering thieves on land, please, do so.

My “guide” is for those who have problems against perma stealth thieves. Shift the fight into water, and watch as your enemy melts.
Thieves are the worst class when it comes to water combat. Crappy range, no defense, no condition cleaning.

I wouldnt say they are the worst underwater. But the contrast with on land is massive. For starters they have pretty much NO stealth underwater. I think they just have Hide in Shadows (their heal). No combofields, no Shadowrefuge, none of that.

Ofcourse of they go Spear they are still very hard to take down because they have an evade or a block on just about every skill. They nerfed it a bit by upping the initiative cost, but they will still be evading and blocking a crapton of your attacks.

They seem to be the worst at fighting underwater (not sure maybe guardians are worse). Spear which was heavily nerfed (not even good before nerf) has an evade and a block while speargun has a shadow step so they’re good at running and mobility (to get out of water).

So the post is really a tactic for every class, not just eles. But then why not say run to the neariest tower, or small roaming group? That’s a much more common tactic, and more successful.

stop reading when I saw “water” …

Daendur.2357:

stop reading when I saw “water” …

This is a valid tactic for players/classes that are weak against thiefs. Attack your enemy where he is weak, avoid him where he is strong. Basic strategy.

Glennage.6273:

It does get boring of all the people that constantly cry about stealth being a broken mechanic. STEALTH IS NOT INVINCIBILITY. Use your head a little bit and place down some aoe or set up for their next attack so you can lock them down.

Personally as a D/D ele I find that I never lose against thieves! Their attack patterns are just too predictable. Using shocking aura just after they go into stealth means they either have to wait out their time or attack you and become stunned allowing you to dish out more damage, use updraft for the knockdown, switch to fire for the burst then switch to earth and keep them in place with magnetic grasp (just first part of the skill) then if they re stealth or use shadow refuge aoe the kitten out of that area and prepare for their next attack with frost/shocking aura so they can’t get away. Be aggressive don’t just keep backing up and running away.

When they go stealthed don’t just give up and think ‘doh they are there I can’t attack them.’ Even on my guardian I don’t feel like thieves are a threat, are people that constantly moan about them being ‘OP’ little cry babies that get jumped by them and due to lack of skill can’t learn how to deal with them?

They are one of the most predictable classes to duel!

Its not that people think thieves are invulnerable when in stealth but that once they get into stealth loads of people become instantly confused about the thief’s location until it backstabs someone, nearly kills them and goes back into stealth… rinse repeat.

For anyone that’s never played a thief fighting one is the least fun fight you could have because stealth is a cheese mechanic. Yeah thieves can be countered by CC and aoe but the difference of player skill needed to win between the thief and their opponent is huge.

basically your strategy is to run away — isn’t that what Anet more or less recommended in one of the live streams? While this strategy may prevent your death, you’re still not going to be able to kill a good thief.

That’s the real reason why fighting thieves are no fun: if they’re good, then no matter how good you are, they can ALWAYS escape before you kill them. You won, but didn’t really win. The only saving grace is that many (most?) players who play thief overestimate their own abilities (perhaps because it’s just too easy for them so they don’t really learn to play properly) and come back prematurely after having escaped only to be killed because of that.

you know the old saying you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t force it to drink.
its the same with GW2.
you can lead a thief to water but you can’t force it to fight.

all he’ll do is wait till you come out and just backstab press 1 a couple times and then press 2, then he wins.
unless the thief is kill hungry stupid he won’t go in the water, same can be said for the eles bunker build to since its boon stacking doesn’t work underwater

Much more rewarding to just level up your own Thief.

hihey.1075:

Immolator.5640:

So the proposed solution, to a problem that isn’t really all that bad, is ‘run for the nearest pool of water’? o.O Is this fo serious?

I am dead serious, yes.
If you are good at countering thieves on land, please, do so.

My “guide” is for those who have problems against perma stealth thieves. Shift the fight into water, and watch as your enemy melts.
Thieves are the worst class when it comes to water combat. Crappy range, no defense, no condition cleaning.

Hmm fair enough then I can see why you called it a ‘soft’ counter now xD I haven’t really come across any effective ‘permastealth’ thieves at all, the best thief I ever fought was just teleporting half way across the map with Infiltrator’s Strike every time you got him to half health, along with a decent amount of stealth. However I am quite often sent into retreat in small scale battles when my health starts going down in chunks from an indistinguishable source; when I say indistinguishable I mean take me about a millisecond to guess and 2 seconds to spot, still not too bad, but I fight these battles a lot and spec my build around smallscale, so it’s to be expected. Just as long as they don’t omgteleporttrebrange anymore I am happy.

I don’t know why you guys are saying eles are so powerful underwater. A good ranger will always win a 1v1 underwater no matter who he is fighting since downed #3 is guaranteed to rez him.

And taking thieves underwater to fight him is not a valid strategy since the thief can just leave. He doesn’t have to chase you. The thief can also outrun you underwater with harpoon gun #5

I think this thread was supposed to help eles, but I main a theif and now I know not to follow you into the water. :P

Archon.6481:

I don’t know why you guys are saying eles are so powerful underwater. A good ranger will always win a 1v1 underwater no matter who he is fighting since downed #3 is guaranteed to rez him.

And taking thieves underwater to fight him is not a valid strategy since the thief can just leave. He doesn’t have to chase you. The thief can also outrun you underwater with harpoon gun #5

you do know if the pet isn’t dead you can just stop the rez with the many floats, sinks and stuns that the ele has.
not to mention even if he does manage to survive you can just switch to water attunement and press 5 to face roll

yeah I kill thiefs at the underwater map all the time

Dagraan.2854:

Archon.6481:

I don’t know why you guys are saying eles are so powerful underwater. A good ranger will always win a 1v1 underwater no matter who he is fighting since downed #3 is guaranteed to rez him.

And taking thieves underwater to fight him is not a valid strategy since the thief can just leave. He doesn’t have to chase you. The thief can also outrun you underwater with harpoon gun #5

you do know if the pet isn’t dead you can just stop the rez with the many floats, sinks and stuns that the ele has.
not to mention even if he does manage to survive you can just switch to water attunement and press 5 to face roll

Ummm, no. The pet actually continues to rez even if he is dead. If you CC the pet, he’ll just run back and continue to rez as soon as the CC ends.

Not to mention that ranger has quite decent underwater skills.

Main problem here is that thieves suck underwater and we know it, so good luck actually finding us in water.

Archon.6481:

Dagraan.2854:

Archon.6481:

I don’t know why you guys are saying eles are so powerful underwater. A good ranger will always win a 1v1 underwater no matter who he is fighting since downed #3 is guaranteed to rez him.

And taking thieves underwater to fight him is not a valid strategy since the thief can just leave. He doesn’t have to chase you. The thief can also outrun you underwater with harpoon gun #5

you do know if the pet isn’t dead you can just stop the rez with the many floats, sinks and stuns that the ele has.
not to mention even if he does manage to survive you can just switch to water attunement and press 5 to face roll

Ummm, no. The pet actually continues to rez even if he is dead. If you CC the pet, he’ll just run back and continue to rez as soon as the CC ends.

Not to mention that ranger has quite decent underwater skills.

no you’re wrong there, i have a ranger at level 80, the pet will only rez the ranger if he has enough time to to press 3 on the downed skills, if you kill the pet mid revive then the pet will stop, if you interrupt the pet mid revive then he’ll stop. the pet rez is a skill that can be stopped just like every other skill and put back on a CD.

if you kill the pet and he presses 3 then theres nothing you can do but switch to water and press 5 to down him again, and the ranger may be better than a thief underwater but he’s no ele or mesmer.

Dagraan.2854:

Archon.6481:

Dagraan.2854:

Archon.6481:

I don’t know why you guys are saying eles are so powerful underwater. A good ranger will always win a 1v1 underwater no matter who he is fighting since downed #3 is guaranteed to rez him.

And taking thieves underwater to fight him is not a valid strategy since the thief can just leave. He doesn’t have to chase you. The thief can also outrun you underwater with harpoon gun #5

you do know if the pet isn’t dead you can just stop the rez with the many floats, sinks and stuns that the ele has.
not to mention even if he does manage to survive you can just switch to water attunement and press 5 to face roll

Ummm, no. The pet actually continues to rez even if he is dead. If you CC the pet, he’ll just run back and continue to rez as soon as the CC ends.

Not to mention that ranger has quite decent underwater skills.

no you’re wrong there, i have a ranger at level 80, the pet will only rez the ranger if he has enough time to to press 3 on the downed skills, if you kill the pet mid revive then the pet will stop, if you interrupt the pet mid revive then he’ll stop. the pet rez is a skill that can be stopped just like every other skill and put back on a CD.

if you kill the pet and he presses 3 then theres nothing you can do but switch to water and press 5 to down him again, and the ranger may be better than a thief underwater but he’s no ele or mesmer.

Unless a patch in the last few weeks fixed it, then I can confirm that interrupting the pet will NOT stop him from rezzing. I watched an engie vs ranger downed fight in an spvp match. Ranger used #3, Engie used #2 on the pet. Pet ran right back the to the ranger and continued rezzing.

Archon.6481:

Dagraan.2854:

Archon.6481:

Dagraan.2854:

Archon.6481:

I don’t know why you guys are saying eles are so powerful underwater. A good ranger will always win a 1v1 underwater no matter who he is fighting since downed #3 is guaranteed to rez him.

And taking thieves underwater to fight him is not a valid strategy since the thief can just leave. He doesn’t have to chase you. The thief can also outrun you underwater with harpoon gun #5

you do know if the pet isn’t dead you can just stop the rez with the many floats, sinks and stuns that the ele has.
not to mention even if he does manage to survive you can just switch to water attunement and press 5 to face roll

Ummm, no. The pet actually continues to rez even if he is dead. If you CC the pet, he’ll just run back and continue to rez as soon as the CC ends.

Not to mention that ranger has quite decent underwater skills.

no you’re wrong there, i have a ranger at level 80, the pet will only rez the ranger if he has enough time to to press 3 on the downed skills, if you kill the pet mid revive then the pet will stop, if you interrupt the pet mid revive then he’ll stop. the pet rez is a skill that can be stopped just like every other skill and put back on a CD.

if you kill the pet and he presses 3 then theres nothing you can do but switch to water and press 5 to down him again, and the ranger may be better than a thief underwater but he’s no ele or mesmer.

Unless a patch in the last few weeks fixed it, then I can confirm that interrupting the pet will NOT stop him from rezzing. I watched an engie vs ranger downed fight in an spvp match. Ranger used #3, Engie used #2 on the pet. Pet ran right back the to the ranger and continued rezzing.

that is impossible unless the engineer killed the pet underwater before he pressed 3 then the pet will stop if it dies or is interrupted, i can confirm that since iv’e used the kitten skill before and its just like every other skill (bar underwater combat and a dead pet)

the pet will go back to the ranger by default most of the time but he won’t rez him.

Contiguous.1345:

When I play my Ele, I ALWAYS try to drag a fight into water if I can, whatever class I’m facing.

If the guy has any sense at all, he avoids it. You do NOT want to fight an Ele underwater.

Who chases an ele period? I honestly see them as that one class you are better off blowing off a cliff than actually attempting to fight. I even avoid them on my regen ranger and I don’t have much trouble against them.