Guild Wars 2

Why are they still allowed to enter towers and keeps portals when downed?

You’re breaking (fixing) everything else, why not this?

Running out of things to spam-complain about.
Wasted my time a lot tonight due to being stupidly outnumbered so if you have to delete/lock/forumban for these, I hope it wastes a tiny bit of someone elses time to do so.

It might make you feel better to know, we can also pick up our loot bags or grab supply.

Cheers!

I could be wrong, but I think you can also gather from nodes and interact with chests while in Vapor form. I don’t mean loot, as Neko mentioned, but real chests like the circular ones in Orr, for example.

By the way, Mist Form is a Cantrip utility skill. You mean Vapor Form. That’s the down state skill.

cause one does not simlpy mess with the king/queen of elements

I used to think ele vapor form was bullkitten but having mained an ele for a while now I can say seriously that ele down state is underpowered. The only time vapor state is OP is in wvw, close enough to a friendly portal. The rest of the time ele down state is junk.
Lure eles far enough from the portal that they can’t slip through in down state, or have immobilize ready. It’s not a huge problem that you miss out on one bag.

eyestrain.3056:

I used to think ele vapor form was bullkitten but having mained an ele for a while now I can say seriously that ele down state is underpowered. The only time vapor state is OP is in wvw, close enough to a friendly portal. The rest of the time ele down state is junk.
Lure eles far enough from the portal that they can’t slip through in down state, or have immobilize ready. It’s not a huge problem that you miss out on one bag.

It’s the strongest downed state. It 100% without fail stops the first stomp attempt of just about any number of people and lets you reposition yourself.

Aberrant.6749:

eyestrain.3056:

I used to think ele vapor form was bullkitten but having mained an ele for a while now I can say seriously that ele down state is underpowered. The only time vapor state is OP is in wvw, close enough to a friendly portal. The rest of the time ele down state is junk.
Lure eles far enough from the portal that they can’t slip through in down state, or have immobilize ready. It’s not a huge problem that you miss out on one bag.

It’s the strongest downed state. It 100% without fail stops the first stomp attempt of just about any number of people and lets you reposition yourself.

A thief can prevent 2 stomps something no other profession can do.
Possibly the best downed state.

Ele can be CC, can be killed, still get condition damage ticks and worst of all often it bugs in conjunction with MIST form.

Tom.8029:

By the way, Mist Form is a Cantrip utility skill. You mean Vapor Form. That’s the down state skill.

Yup, was tired when I posted this. You’re correct!

eyestrain.3056:

Lure eles far enough from the portal that they can’t slip through in down state, or have immobilize ready. It’s not a huge problem that you miss out on one bag.

Smart eles don’t stray far from the portal though and immobilize only works if you hit them with it before they go into vapor form as they’re immune to any damage in that form. As far as I’m aware, only skills such as guardians ‘line of warding’ can stop them entering the portal.

Also, the lootbag isn’t the issue. Having a potential zerker staff ele inside a tower is – they can ruin your day in there.

LordByron.8369:

A thief can prevent 2 stomps something no other profession can do.
Possibly the best downed state.

Thief isn’t much of an issue, their teleport works similarly to the mesmers downed ability and you have more than enough time after they move to stomp them before they use their invisibility – usually.

This is a bit like asking ‘why are guardians allowed to tag everything with one hit of a staff in an arc in front of them and not die from retal’.

Playing a staff ele in wvw isn’t easy, cut them some slack.

This is nothing but a thin silver lining among all the horrors elementalists have to suffer because of the overzealous handicap effect the mists are forcing on them, reducing their power to an infinitesimal portion of what it is.

If elementalists had their real full power, they would just open sinkholes and take out entire enemy zergs, keeps and all; remove the air around the enemies suffocating them, or make their blood boil to death.

So be thankful we are so greatly limited. And considering this negligible advantage as a payment for what we lost.

By the way, Vapor Form is not immune to snares or crowd control.

psizone.8437:

Smart eles don’t stray far from the portal though and immobilize only works if you hit them with it before they go into vapor form

wall skills like guardians works on vapour form.
Vapour form is not istant cast also.

Thief isn’t much of an issue, their teleport works similarly to the mesmers downed ability and you have more than enough time after they move to stomp them before they use their invisibility – usually.

No you have not.
In a balanced fight you can t lose 10-15 second to stomp a thief.
And they can be ressed faster unless you keep attacking.

baically most thieves are best to be killed than stomped in most situations.

Baldrick.8967:

This is a bit like asking ‘why are guardians allowed to tag everything with one hit of a staff in an arc in front of them and not die from retal’.

Playing a staff ele in wvw isn’t easy, cut them some slack.

I have a staff ele that I play in WvW, too. I know it can be hard at times, but it’s really not that bad! They have their strengths and weaknesses like any other class.

LordByron.8369:

psizone.8437:

Smart eles don’t stray far from the portal though and immobilize only works if you hit them with it before they go into vapor form

wall skills like guardians works on vapour form.
Vapour form is not istant cast also.

Thief isn’t much of an issue, their teleport works similarly to the mesmers downed ability and you have more than enough time after they move to stomp them before they use their invisibility – usually.

No you have not.
In a balanced fight you can t lose 10-15 second to stomp a thief.
And they can be ressed faster unless you keep attacking.

baically most thieves are best to be killed than stomped in most situations.

I point out the guardian thing in an above post.

I feel like if you’re in a fight that you can’t afford the 5 seconds (not 10-15) to stomp a thief then you should just focus on attacking other enemies or keep attacking the downed thief as you say.

psizone.8437:

Why are they still allowed to enter towers and keeps portals when downed?

You’re breaking (fixing) everything else, why not this?

Running out of things to spam-complain about.
Wasted my time a lot tonight due to being stupidly outnumbered so if you have to delete/lock/forumban for these, I hope it wastes a tiny bit of someone elses time to do so.

Don’t forget elementalists are the only class with the lowest HP pool AND the lightest armor.

They have to sacrifice so much of their offensive capabilities just for survival issues that if they had to run back every time they were down half of them would just stop playing the game or roll another class.

It’s like the thief, learn to play one and you’ll realize they are not OP.

Also learn to counter it:
immobilize, walls, chills, all of those work against it; it has already been nerfed.

[quote=4414634;Xillllix.3485:
It’s like the thief, learn to play one and you’ll realize they are not OP.

Also learn to counter it:
immobilize, walls, chills, all of those work against it; it has already been nerfed.[/quote]

Thieves are one of the strongest classes in the game, bordering on OP with certain builds (I have 2 thieves) and elementalists can be insanely defensive if they trait for it, the healing, condi-removal and dodges (with high vigor uptime) can make eles very difficult to kill. (also, I have an elementalist, so I’m not saying all of this from an enemy standpoint)

Like any class, if you spec for pure damage and no defense, you’ll die at some point – but you shouldn’t be able to spec purely for damage knowing you can just float away into a tower if you’re downed beside it.

Also, like I said earlier, if they get into the form, only guardians can stop them, leaving the other classes with a potential movable AC inside a tower.

But… A “smart” ele should never get off the wall willingly.
Seriously if you down an ele outside the tower chances are you ripped him off the wall, vapor just gives us the chance to get back in. It’s up to you to get us off the wall, downed, and dead.

Dasenthal.6520:

But… A “smart” ele should never get off the wall willingly.
Seriously if you down an ele outside the tower chances are you ripped him off the wall, vapor just gives us the chance to get back in. It’s up to you to get us off the wall, downed, and dead.

That’s the issue, no other classes have a chance to go back into the tower. If you pull an ele off the walls and down him, you shouldn’t have to watch as he floats back inside again and gets back up.

So because we have 1 thing we can do that others can’t we should have taken away? That’s like complaining about a thief (who for some reason decided the wall is where he belongs) getting pulled off and stealthing before he even hits the ground and running back in. Except we’re dead! (Basically at least)

psizone.8437:

[…]
That’s the issue, no other classes have a chance to go back into the tower. If you pull an ele off the walls and down him, you shouldn’t have to watch as he floats back inside again and gets back up.

If you don’t want that to happen, use immobilize right after or before they go down so it takes while they are not invulnerable.

LordByron.8369:

A thief can prevent 2 stomps something no other profession can do.
Possibly the best downed state.

Ele can be CC, can be killed, still get condition damage ticks and worst of all often it bugs in conjunction with MIST form.

The thief is still easily stomped with a teleport in most cases. Also if the player is fast on the down the thief will never get a chance for the second invis to come up. Vapor Form runs long enough that a stomp generally cannot be started and teleported before VF is done.

By far VF is the best downed skill but not unfair in my book. IMO other classes need a bump in their downed state skills long before we start nerfing others.

We have to give up an offensive skill for vapor form. It takes time for most form to be ready when we are downed. Learn to kill / control faster when pulling elementalists.

MithranArkanere.8957:

psizone.8437:

[…]
That’s the issue, no other classes have a chance to go back into the tower. If you pull an ele off the walls and down him, you shouldn’t have to watch as he floats back inside again and gets back up.

If you don’t want that to happen, use immobilize right after or before they go down so it takes while they are not invulnerable.

Not every class has easy access to immobilise.

Dasenthal.6520:

So because we have 1 thing we can do that others can’t we should have taken away? That’s like complaining about a thief (who for some reason decided the wall is where he belongs) getting pulled off and stealthing before he even hits the ground and running back in. Except we’re dead! (Basically at least)

If that one thing includes being able to evade death entirely from a downed state (unless by some miracle someone hits them with a long duration immobilise or a guardian is around to block the portal with a line of warding) then yes. Also, if the thief lives, he can stealth. We’re talking about being able to run in after being downed, if the thief is downed outside, he won’t get in.

Seera.5916:

We have to give up an offensive skill for vapor form. It takes time for most form to be ready when we are downed. Learn to kill / control faster when pulling elementalists.

What are you talking about? Vapor form is ready to use almost immediately after being downed. It’s not a learn to play issue if certain classes can’t counter it.

The offensive skills of every other class is a “block one stomp” attack, whereas mist form blocks all attacks for 3 seconds… and you can move… and you can go into a tower if it’s close… and then you can get back up.

psizone.8437:

if it’s close…

So get us(full time staff ele) away from the tower and if we won’t play your game, bring your own eles to beat us back off the wall with their equally imposing meteor showers. Seriously nothing will stop me from getting on the ledge faster than getting smashed in the face before I can get there.

Just get rid of downed state in WvW.

psizone.8437:

MithranArkanere.8957:

psizone.8437:

[…]
That’s the issue, no other classes have a chance to go back into the tower. If you pull an ele off the walls and down him, you shouldn’t have to watch as he floats back inside again and gets back up.

If you don’t want that to happen, use immobilize right after or before they go down so it takes while they are not invulnerable.

Not every class has easy access to immobilise.

But this is a group play game mode. Somebody in your group should have access to immobilize… And if you’re stupid enough to fight an ele at their tower gate, then you deserved to lose.

My fav is to go mist form as a spike someone….

rhapsody.3615:

And if you’re stupid enough to fight an ele at their tower gate, then you deserved to lose.

Little aggressive. Sometimes you can’t avoid fighting in front of a tower. Also, not everyone fights in groups and with 8 classes, there’s no guarantee that someone will have immobilise at that time.

psizone.8437:

Seera.5916:

We have to give up an offensive skill for vapor form. It takes time for most form to be ready when we are downed. Learn to kill / control faster when pulling elementalists.

What are you talking about? Vapor form is ready to use almost immediately after being downed. It’s not a learn to play issue if certain classes can’t counter it.

The offensive skills of every other class is a “block one stomp” attack, whereas mist form blocks all attacks for 3 seconds… and you can move… and you can go into a tower if it’s close… and then you can get back up.

So I switched Mist Form and Vapor form. Sue me.

I have to give up an offensive skill for Mist Form.

So what do you propose to give to the Ele to help it out with its situation. We have the lowest HP pool and we use the least protective armor.

Warriors on the other hand, have the highest HP pool, have access to the best protective armor, and have wonderful regen capabilities. Rangers pets can heal them while they continue to try to rally.

We have our escapes, warriors have their regen to keep them out of downed, rangers have their pets. When you can convince the majority of the warriors to give up their regen and the rangers to give up their pet heals, then come talk to use elementalists about giving up our escapes.

psizone.8437:

rhapsody.3615:

And if you’re stupid enough to fight an ele at their tower gate, then you deserved to lose.

Little aggressive. Sometimes you can’t avoid fighting in front of a tower. Also, not everyone fights in groups and with 8 classes, there’s no guarantee that someone will have immobilise at that time.

Then treat this as a learning experience. When roaming, equip some immobilize skills. When in groups and nearing a tower, ask about those and make sure someone equips one.

The game shouldn’t have to adjust because you don’t want to have to counter elementalists.

LordByron.8369:

Aberrant.6749:

eyestrain.3056:

I used to think ele vapor form was bullkitten but having mained an ele for a while now I can say seriously that ele down state is underpowered. The only time vapor state is OP is in wvw, close enough to a friendly portal. The rest of the time ele down state is junk.
Lure eles far enough from the portal that they can’t slip through in down state, or have immobilize ready. It’s not a huge problem that you miss out on one bag.

It’s the strongest downed state. It 100% without fail stops the first stomp attempt of just about any number of people and lets you reposition yourself.

A thief can prevent 2 stomps something no other profession can do.
Possibly the best downed state.

Ele can be CC, can be killed, still get condition damage ticks and worst of all often it bugs in conjunction with MIST form.

You can tele to the thief after his tele (mid stomp) and kill him on the first stomp. Can’t do that against ele unless they are very very very bad and push 2 as soon as they are downed. Every other class can be stomped on the first attempt in some way… other than ele. That’s what makes it the best downed state. Having 2 ways of stopping a stomp is meaningless if your first way gets countered (just look at eng’s bad downed state).

Aberrant.6749:

LordByron.8369:

Aberrant.6749:

eyestrain.3056:

I used to think ele vapor form was bullkitten but having mained an ele for a while now I can say seriously that ele down state is underpowered. The only time vapor state is OP is in wvw, close enough to a friendly portal. The rest of the time ele down state is junk.
Lure eles far enough from the portal that they can’t slip through in down state, or have immobilize ready. It’s not a huge problem that you miss out on one bag.

It’s the strongest downed state. It 100% without fail stops the first stomp attempt of just about any number of people and lets you reposition yourself.

A thief can prevent 2 stomps something no other profession can do.
Possibly the best downed state.

Ele can be CC, can be killed, still get condition damage ticks and worst of all often it bugs in conjunction with MIST form.

You can tele to the thief after his tele (mid stomp) and kill him on the first stomp. Can’t do that against ele unless they are very very very bad and push 2 as soon as they are downed. Every other class can be stomped on the first attempt in some way… other than ele. That’s what makes it the best downed state. Having 2 ways of stopping a stomp is meaningless if your first way gets countered (just look at eng’s bad downed state).

I feel like I should mention this. I’ve been in a fight before where I’m about to press a skill and just before I do press it, I go down and instead press the skill that replaces it in down state. Said skill replacement can sometimes be Vapor Form. So I have gone down before and immediately Vapor Formed because of this. So if you see an Elementalist do this, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re bad. It’s more of an unfortunate turn of events. Haha.

Tower defense is hazardous enough with all the pulls available. It’s more dangerous to defend a tower than to attack it, and less forgiving if you do die as you’ll likely not get back in.

I say let elementalists keep this little trick. They run with the lowest health and armor in the game and are suppose to be compensated with a lot of defensive tricks and good ranged spells. Seems tower defense is where an elementalist should really shine.

Theres a trick: you can immobilize them befor going vapor.

psizone.8437:

Thief isn’t much of an issue, their teleport works similarly to the mesmers downed ability and you have more than enough time after they move to stomp them before they use their invisibility – usually.

Only if you down them in melee. Down them at range and the time spend running to their body to stomp often enough to tick down the cooldown to double interupt.

But honestly the downed states are a mess and completely unbalanced. Some professions have their only “interupt” countered by almost everything that can counter something (blind, aegis, los, stability, stealth, projectile reflection/destruction, 2+ stompers). And other professions are less bothered by this, because they aoe interupt or splash through los, or cannot be body blocked. And some simply displace/stealth, which has only very few, highly specific counters. Or litteraly no counters at all.

Is this a troll thread?

Seera.5916:

So I switched Mist Form and Vapor form. Sue me.

I have to give up an offensive skill for Mist Form.

So what do you propose to give to the Ele to help it out with its situation. We have the lowest HP pool and we use the least protective armor.

Warriors on the other hand, have the highest HP pool, have access to the best protective armor, and have wonderful regen capabilities. Rangers pets can heal them while they continue to try to rally.

We have our escapes, warriors have their regen to keep them out of downed, rangers have their pets. When you can convince the majority of the warriors to give up their regen and the rangers to give up their pet heals, then come talk to use elementalists about giving up our escapes.

I didn’t call you out on the wrong skill name, but the time it takes to use it…
Neither the ranger or the warrior can just up and leave the situation by going inside a tower whilst downed and then get back up again. The problem isn’t that the elementalist can move when downed, it’s that they can go inside towers or keeps using it.

You want to know how you should avoid getting stomped outside a tower? Don’t be outside a tower on a glasscannon elementalist. If you go outside to fight enemies and are downed, you should be dead(able to be stomped), you shouldn’t be able to float back inside the tower again. You could float to allies, or around a corner, but not inside a tower with no risk involved.

as if such things as glasscannon ele existed in gw2 WWW.

If you talk about risk, its time to speak about stealth.
Its time to speak about HP and ARMOR difference.
And about healing signet
Traits and mobility comes after.
And then Cooldowns.

Just considering RISK/REWARD on 1 skill is not balance is asking to remove ANY decent skill from a profession-

Global RISK/reward is hard to obtain….but since anet refuses to use guidelines on skill design as possibly the game developers did in the beginning, what you say is pointless.

You can t come here to say… ele has ONE skill better than mine (NB has counterplay, you just refuse to accept it)…… NERF it.
You can get to WWW and just count the number of elementalist you see opposed to thieves, warriors and guardians to have an idea on current WWW balance.

You can immobilize Vapor Form.

LordByron.8369:

as if such things as glasscannon ele existed in gw2 WWW.

If you talk about risk, its time to speak about stealth.
Its time to speak about HP and ARMOR difference.
And about healing signet
Traits and mobility comes after.
And then Cooldowns.

You can t come here to say… ele has ONE skill better than mine (NB has counterplay, you just refuse to accept it)…… NERF it.
You can get to WWW and just count the number of elementalist you see opposed to thieves, warriors and guardians to have an idea on current WWW balance.

Glasscannon elementalists are in WvW, they make perfect tower/keep defenders.

I’m here to complain about one skill that does something no other class can do and frankly, it shouldn’t be able to do. I have no problem with the skill making the elementalist immune to damage and allow them to move, it’s the “getting inside towers” part that I believe is broken. There are other issues with other classes, and other people can set up posts to complain about them, they’re not what this post was about.

“Oh, if you use this class with this specific ability you can counter that” is not a good response for a skill that can stop an elementalist from dying if they stay outside a tower.

Nokaru.7831:

You can immobilize Vapor Form.

You can’t, if you use a long duration immobilise on the elementalist BEFORE he uses vapor form then the condition sticks, but you can’t attack them whilst in the form.

Cool nobody else can vapour form?
What about portal?
What about invulnerabilities?

Its better to be able to defend a tower from FEW opponents BEFORE they built a siege (any other situation ele is not a threat) or being able to just stand under enemy fire for long, disengage at will, port a zerg into a tower and so on?

So you want to nerf the only feat of a profession better than Others because they are better in an extremely situational case?

Fair give me 20.000 HP and we have a deal…stealth would go also.

LordByron.8369:

Cool nobody else can vapour form?
What about portal?
What about invulnerabilities?

Its better to be able to defend a tower from FEW opponents BEFORE they built a siege (any other situation ele is not a threat) or being able to just stand under enemy fire for long, disengage at will, port a zerg into a tower and so on?

So you want to nerf the only feat of a profession better than Others because they are better in an extremely situational case?

Fair give me 20.000 HP and we have a deal…stealth would go also.

Why would you even need 20k hp?! Eles with the right gear and traits are tanky enough as it is, they can outheal and clear more conditions than any other class.

This conversation has gone from “I don’t think they should be allowed to go inside a tower and get back up if they’re downed” to “omg don’t nerf that, we need it because thieves can stealth and warriors can swing a sword and also heal passively”

The problem isn’t that they can do something better than others, it’s that they can do it. Period.

How would you react if every class when downed could just get back up, go inside a tower and then stand back up? How about if a mesmer could do it? A thief? Wouldn’t be nice, would it? Why should an ele, with access to some of the highest aoe damage in the game be allowed to?

You’re making this sound like I’m out to nerf elementalists to the ground, but I personally play a glasscannon staff ele in WvW and I think it’s beyond overpowered, it’s borderline cheating.

Again, I state, THE PROBLEM ISN’T THAT ELEMENTALISTS CAN GO INTO VAPOR FORM, IT’S THAT THEY CAN USE IT TO GO INSIDE TOWERS AND KEEPS AND SURVIVE FROM A DOWNED STATE.

I guess you are serious about this cause caps and bold.

Here is my oppinion about the problem:

It’s not a problem.

Bubi.7942:

I guess you are serious about this cause caps and bold.

Here is my oppinion about the problem:

It’s not a problem.

I used caps and bold because people seemed to argue saying that I thought the ability itself was broken and needed removed rather than the one issue with the ability. They just need to block access to the tower portals when downed, you wouldn’t notice any other difference other than in that one instance.

I disagree that it’s not a problem, but to each his own.

to be honest it’s a pretty well designed skill for the ele. The ele has the lowest HP+armor ingame and therefore is the squishiest character unless geared&traited up differently. Since the ele is naturally the squishiest character you can expect Anet to compensating them by doing either heavier damage or giving them a last backup. Since the damage of the ele isn’t superior to all the other classes they should be rewarded with a last backup.
It is still very well possible to keep an ele outside the tower by immobilizing him. It is a pretty good skill but not really OP

To paraphrase psizone comment with minute changes:

I’m here to complain about one skill that does something no other class can do and frankly, it shouldn’t be able to do. I have no problem with portal skill making the mesmer move around the map, it’s the “getting inside keeps” part that I believe is broken. There are other issues with other classes, and other people can set up posts to complain about them, they’re not what this post is about.

Wait… Is there any feasible reason why a warrior can’t do exactly what the ele can? If there’s people inside they’re effectively the same. (We’ve already discussed why the time isn’t an issue regarding thieves)

Belorn.2659:

To paraphrase psizone comment with minute changes:

I’m here to complain about one skill that does something no other class can do and frankly, it shouldn’t be able to do. I have no problem with portal skill making the mesmer move around the map, it’s the “getting inside keeps” part that I believe is broken. There are other issues with other classes, and other people can set up posts to complain about them, they’re not what this post is about.

Pretty much, the issue is getting inside whilst downed. Mesmers need to be alive to use portals.

Dasenthal.6520:

Wait… Is there any feasible reason why a warrior can’t do exactly what the ele can? If there’s people inside they’re effectively the same. (We’ve already discussed why the time isn’t an issue regarding thieves)

There’s a delay of 5 or so seconds before a warrior can use Vengeance and once the skill ends, the warrior is fully dead so either he’s in the tower alone or someone has to res him from a fully downed state (takes longer than a downed res)

Can someone confirm if warriors can still enter towers in Vengeance? I witnessed one last night and he couldn’t get inside his keep (he might have just gotten unlucky)

That could be I assumed they could but idk. My point was that we’re not the only class that can, we just do it better.

psizone.8437:

MithranArkanere.8957:

psizone.8437:

[…]
That’s the issue, no other classes have a chance to go back into the tower. If you pull an ele off the walls and down him, you shouldn’t have to watch as he floats back inside again and gets back up.

If you don’t want that to happen, use immobilize right after or before they go down so it takes while they are not invulnerable.

Not every class has easy access to immobilise.

Yes, they have.

I’ve played all 8 professions in WvW.
All with immobilizes

All with easy access, as every single one has an immobilize in either non-weapon skills or weapons, or both.

Rangers and warriors shine the most there, but no no exceptions.

psizone.8437:

[…]Again, I state, THE PROBLEM ISN’T THAT ELEMENTALISTS CAN GO INTO VAPOR FORM, IT’S THAT THEY CAN USE IT TO GO INSIDE TOWERS AND KEEPS AND SURVIVE FROM A DOWNED STATE.

It is not a problem.
They can also be defeated way before they reach the door, while other professions can endure much more punishment.
It isn’t very different to a warrior just running through with endure pain or or a necromancer with death shroud.

And if they don’t get far enough inside and there’s no one to help them, you can still hit them with long cleaves like Flame Jet.