Downed state helps both sides alike (even the most prominent guild groups take at least 2 banner warriors with them, if we are talking about large scale combat)
AoE limits are there for some reasons, and abandoning such limits would hurt “organized” groups even more (because most guild groups know how to leverage the capping, which wouldn’t be possible with unlimited AoE effects). If you’d implement uncapped AoE, it would outperform every kind of cleave and would also require unlimited boon application, condition removal and combo effects. That would make for some interesting fights… yeah… no. It wouldn’t lead to anything but even more mindless spamming and bunkering.
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If the zerg really was mindless then they would have melted instantly to aoe. It looks like the zerg you fought was an organized one, which Anet has no problems with.
If the zerg really was mindless then they would have melted instantly to aoe. It looks like the zerg you fought was an organized one, which Anet has no problems with.
can’t melt a zerg when you can only hit 5 with an AOE, and THATS the problem
Organized … if you want to call following one player around in a giant zerging blob organized … ok then you must be part of one of these casual zerging blob guilds. this type of gameplay rewards bad mechanics
in any other PVP game if you were to blob up on one person you would get destroyed and then probably told to learn to play better by your enemy. but because of the mechanics i mentioned the game is dumbed down to running around in a non thinking blob.
Zergs/blobs are reality. To counter the zergs/blobs you need to form one too. Sure there are smaller guild groups roaming around but they seem to be less common than the zerg or blob from my experience. Whether we like it or not its part of the game.
Making CC more prominent = more CC (aka more players) wins.
Removing downed = more burst (aka more players) wins.
Removing aoe caps = more aoes (aka more players) wins.
Your suggestions would just allow large groups to wipe out their opposition even more effectively than they do now. What chance would a smaller group have against an 80 man zerg with perma all boons, near complete condi immunity and insanely high heal rates (at least 50k hps)?
Making CC more prominent = more CC (aka more players) wins.
Removing downed = more burst (aka more players) wins.
Removing aoe caps = more aoes (aka more players) wins.
Your suggestions would just allow large groups to wipe out their opposition even more effectively than they do now. What chance would a smaller group have against an 80 man zerg with perma all boons, near complete condi immunity and insanely high heal rates (at least 50k hps)?
what 80 man zerg do you know that has condi immunity. if you are talking about fields with the AOE cap removed it would be extremely dangerous for that large amount of people to stand near each other long enough to get a condi immunity field going.
AOEs aren’t everything GOOD groups will learn to move away from each other so they limited the amount of people hit by the AOE, but still be able to support each other. this is how it was in Dark Age of camelot where a memorize could last up to a minute long … yes you heard that right imagine being CCed for a minute. it sucked but good groups learned how to avoid it zerger blob players got destroyed by it.
now I am not saying CC should be that long here but it definitely should be much much more prominent
honestly if you go up against an 80 man zerg it probably wont be for the best but what my suggestions do get rid of is this stupid blobbing strategy where you just see a mass of players stacked as close as they can on top of one another.
Casual zerg blobs get absolutely wrecked by aoe. Even some semi-decent, mostly guild groups (especially ones running the hammer meta and blindly stacking on the driver) get wrecked by aoe groups that know how to play. Yes, if you are the lone guy dropping heavy aoe on a zerg you are going to have a bad time.
@Khallis This isn’t the first time this idea has been discussed. What your suggesting will only make more number more powerful. Say you remove you AoE cap, so 10 people can hit the whole zerg…BUT that whole zerg can hit your whole 10 man group. Wiping them almost instantly… So AoE is gone, now the zerg can drop a water field and heal the whole zerg at 1 time rather then 5 people at a time, making the zerg stronger. This will only make more numbers more powerful.
Devs have already stated that they will not increase the AoE cap because it will add to many calculations to the fields thus increasing skill lag exponentially. The servers can’t handle it…
Currently an organised group can achieve 1 condi cleared for each member of the group approximately once every five-sixths of a second. This is with capped aoe condi clears. If you remove this cap it could easily get so fast that it may as well be immunity, and since a large portion of current condi clears convert those condis to boons you would struggle greatly to strip/corrupt their boons to prevent their stability and retaliation from ruining your day.
make Crowd control more prominent, get rid of the down state in WvW and get rid of the limit on amount of people an AOE skill can hit.
AOE should destroy mindless Zergs yet in guild wars 2 you are actually rewarded for this dumbed down style of gameplay
CC is insane at the moment, to the point it needs to be reduced. Downstated i think needs to be redesigned for all classes it is to strong on some classes and to weak on others.
What do you consider to be a “mindless zerg” Thanks to all the AoE healing, condition removal, boons and everything it is more of a AoE, CC nightmare and the one side that has more CC and AoE is the side that will win in most cases.
make Crowd control more prominent, get rid of the down state in WvW and get rid of the limit on amount of people an AOE skill can hit.
AOE should destroy mindless Zergs yet in guild wars 2 you are actually rewarded for this dumbed down style of gameplay
CC options are numerous, significant and very effective.
The downed state actually adds another dimension to gameplay: e.g res’ing the downed, and commanders deciding if they should defeat downed or keep pressing. It also requires discipline to stay focused on target and not have your ‘casual’ blobbers chasing stomps.
Unlimited AoE targetting. <shrug> In WAR:AoR, Bright Wizards (and Sorcs) and their Rain of Fire reduced gameplay to ‘I win’ builds and one dimensional positional gameplay that centered around choke points.
In short, I suggest what you’re proposing would:
1. Reduce the complexity of current gameplay
2. Promote a limited range of OP builds (mass cc and ranged AoE).
3. Be adapted by the zergs, resulting in them cc’ing into helplessness and melting smaller groups.
Bright wizards destroy kittenty casual players which is what AOE does, it destroys those players that suck at the game and are just there to spam one skill over and over because they can’t think for themselves.
GW2 WvW promotes skilless mindless kittenty casual oriented … follow one guy and win gameplay.
I played Chaos in WAR my small group had no problem dealing with Bright wizards, we didn’t blob up like mindless zergers so their AOE that could hit everyone was nullified. you are all scared of mass AOE because honestly you guys probably suck at this game and are those skill-less casuals that need to blob to win.
all arenanet needs to do now is add a follow command and you guys will really not need to think about positioning and playing the game.
Anyone that thinks they can follow one guy and win is about to get killed by a group half their size, guaranteed.
You could mindlessly aoe spam all you want but a large enough zerg would be able to use its uncapped aoe support to just facetank through it – no skill involved on either side and the larger group gets an autowin, exactly what you’re trying to claim happens now.
except thats exactly what happens in this garbage as game, you follow one guy around stack as close as possible to him and spam and you win.
AOE would kill Idiots who stand in its circles which are shown on the god kitten ground thats how dumbed down this game is, you don’t even have to predict where an AOE lands the game will tell you.
oh no you might have to move away from each for a second instead of running around with your kittens up each others kitten. god forbid.
smart GOOD players will move when they see an AOE targeter so they might get hit by the first hit but bad players will get destroyed which is what AOE does. it destroys bad players.
Given that I’m usually in that smaller group that wipes a larger pug zerg I can tell you that aoe killzones are a massive part of what gets the job done.
You’re forgetting that attacks aren’t the only aoes in this game. There are ways to get around 1k heal per second using only aoe heals. If every member of an 80 man zerg was using this kind of heal, all 80 players would be getting 80k heals per second. On top of this they would all have retaliation being reapplied much more rapidly than you could remove it so any aoe attacker would suffer over 20k damage per hit that they cannot do a single thing about.
Your suggestions would turn numbers into an absolutely insurmountable advantage. There would be no possible strategy to beat such a zerg that doesn’t require similar numbers on your own side.
Zergs are a part of any game with open world objective based PvP. It is normal to have them and beneficial to have them as they provide a welcoming introduction to WvW for new or casual players.
The issue with GW2 is that unlike other games it never proceeded beyond that point. The reward structure and combat system simply rewards zerging so much that very few move beyond balling up for a game of follow the leader.
Guilds are not forming into tactical units, just slightly more coordinated zergs. There is very little tactics, very little strategy and the meta of the game is stagnant and boring.
One of the core issues in my opinion is the entire lack of raid frames and grouping requirements when the game was released. With no tools to help grouping, we ended up with balls of ungrouped people. With no 20 man squad limit to guide them, they just got bigger and bigger evolving from the zerg of past games to the blob of GW2. I think it is likely too late, even if they actually deliver on the promised raid frames, but it would be a start.
Casual or not has nothing to do with zergs, and who is exactly “a casual” player? I mean get real.. Zergs will always be a part of this game type, if you want to avoid zergs then you must play structured PvP.
WvW, or RvR isn’t for you if you don’t like zergs.
As far as AOE goes, I think most people have enough sense to get out of the way of a big red circle if they can it doesn’t take some elite skill master to do that.
OP has never been part of a smaller zerg busting guild. Either that, or he’s in a server with very few good commanders and no centralised VOIP.
A 20-25 man organised guild can easily take on a pug zerg 2-3 times their size. Seen it happen. Been on both sides of it as well. (edit: depends on the situation and the commander. Once got wiped by a group of 20~ish TKG when I was in a group of 35~ish. Agg also regularly wipes zergs double their number.)
I guess l2p is my advice. A mindless pug is the first to die in any engagement, unless they’re the ones that run away.
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Everytime someone says “if you remove caps on AOE and CC, it’ll just make Zergs stronger cause they’ll have more of both then the smaller group” I can’t help but laugh.
DAOC didn’t have caps on AOE or CC, and you could easily kill mega zergs in that game with 8 people..
Know why? Because having more people to AOE and CC means nothing if you get side wiped by a group who instant kills half the people you’re with.
They should reduce the thoughness benefit in WvW by half. That would promote skilled, reactive glass cannon play styles over the silly face tanking & blobbing that we have now.
Very few of the pvt spammers out there could actually pull a proper gc.
Without aoe cap defending keeps and towers would take some serious skill. At least now you can take keep against larger force and you can defend against larger force.
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Sorry OP, you would bring about the resurgence of the “Bright Wizard” from Warhammer fame, AoE would become THE kill method for every group in every situation. Warriors run Stun, Everyone AoE’s stunned targets down, rinse and repeat.
You know anet are against anti-zerging, they want the zerg.
Remember when aoe skills were actually aoe. If 50 players stood in a red circle they would all get damaged.
But people complained that all 50 of them were so stupid that they didnt realise that all 50 of them standing in a red circle would mean they would get hit. So anet decided to limit aoe to 5 players. Now zergs can stand in one spot all day and laugh at the red “aoe” circles as only 5 of them will be hit now whilst the other 45 can dance the night away.
Yes this made necros and eles OP in wvw, but then the enemy have necros and eles as well; and other profs have aoe skills they can use.
So yeah never gonna happen.
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WvW, we only care if it affects the servers we play on.
If the zerg really was mindless then they would have melted instantly to aoe. It looks like the zerg you fought was an organized one, which Anet has no problems with.
can’t melt a zerg when you can only hit 5 with an AOE, and THATS the problem
Organized … if you want to call following one player around in a giant zerging blob organized … ok then you must be part of one of these casual zerging blob guilds. this type of gameplay rewards bad mechanics
in any other PVP game if you were to blob up on one person you would get destroyed and then probably told to learn to play better by your enemy. but because of the mechanics i mentioned the game is dumbed down to running around in a non thinking blob.
Maybe because PvP is about capping points.
Maybe WvWers enjoy wiping people capping points.
Bad players blame mechanics.
Good players use mechanics.
Do the math.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
Please don’t. Abbadons Mouth drop so many loot bags against such inferior numbers. These casual zergers need to be encouraged, it’s the only lucrative farm we have left in the game now .
I am fine with the offensive AoE cap, but I would like to see a defensive one as well….You know if 10 people wanna jump me while I am solo, if I can only hit 5, I should only be able to be hit by 5 as well.
Remove AoE… problem solved. The game would perform better for everyone, no reason to zerg stack and attacks that are coordinated/skilled would be vastly more effective.
The problem is GW2 is a heavy spam to win game. Classes that do not require targeting rule the zerg stacks. Best AoE/bunker setup wins.
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Anything bigger that what your group/guild is running at that very moment is a zerg on these boards. I’ve seen people claiming 10m being the zerg group that chased down their 5m team.
Small groups can still take on big groups, though I disagree with the OP completely. There is an organised and non-organised zergs. You shouldn’t be getting wrecked by casuals, they are easy target for an organised guild. If you haven’t learn to cut and kill then your small man is probably as mindless as the zerg.
Imo there should be only a cap on defensive aoes and not on offensive. If a group is outnumbered, the “extra” damage they RECEIVE will be nothing compared to the extra damage they GIVE.
If defensive aoe’s (water fields) didn’t cap either, the bigger group can just outheal them ofcourse. With a cap on only 1 type of aoe’s, it’ll be a lot more dangerous to blob up too much, but in certain circumstances still a viable tactic (hides the amount of players you have for example)
We need hard limits or diminishing returns on cc like in wow. But the aoe caps are kittened, I’d give anything for them to be removed so the mindless zergs would dissipate. People think they are “pvping” as they run the Zerg train, it’s a shame.
Given that I’m usually in that smaller group that wipes a larger pug zerg I can tell you that aoe killzones are a massive part of what gets the job done.
You’re forgetting that attacks aren’t the only aoes in this game. There are ways to get around 1k heal per second using only aoe heals. If every member of an 80 man zerg was using this kind of heal, all 80 players would be getting 80k heals per second. On top of this they would all have retaliation being reapplied much more rapidly than you could remove it so any aoe attacker would suffer over 20k damage per hit that they cannot do a single thing about.
Your suggestions would turn numbers into an absolutely insurmountable advantage. There would be no possible strategy to beat such a zerg that doesn’t require similar numbers on your own side.
+1 to this.
Imagine a small organized group with some ele backliners that drop meteor shower on a zerg with not aoe capped retaliation. Not just the ele would die instantly in a second but the not aoe capped water fields, shouts, condi removal would negate every dmg that the smaller group does.
Also, if you love the skillag in SM 3 way fight imagine it with no aoe cap.
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