Guild Wars 2

I preface this by stating that I am not a hardcore WvW player anymore, my commander tag gathers dust and WvW days are long over from launch and time spent on NS, FA, EB, etc..

But why did I quit commanding and being so active in WvW?

Because for me its incredibly stale, it lacked any serious impact and persistence and I lost my drive to attempt Tactical movement beyond Lead Blob to door/wall…

But later anet added in WxP and such and EoTM but yet it never drew me back in.

I tried EoTM and I had fun with it for a time but it doesn’t impact my servers standing nor does it really matter for the actual WvW maps, yet it was still more fun than what “Core” wvw was…

So my question to you all is, How would you feel if EoTM transferred its system into the core of WvW?

More specifically, What if WvW became a Like colored team match with multiple Overflows that encompassed all servers? Would it effect your server loyalty or pride levels?

If this were the case How would servers be ranked and gain individual points inside of each match up? Would this cause a Toxic environment or a healthy / friendly competitive spirit between allied servers?

Here’s the thinking that lead me to these questions.

I have fun in EoTM, why?

Because It’s always populated and I can ALWAYS find a group to do things with no matter my server.

Because there’s no Que Time and I can join my guild-mates or party in their “overflow” version of it rather easily.

I’m not fighting the Same 3 to 5 servers every 2 or 3 weeks while making 0 headway in the overall ranking board.

I don’t have to worry if guild are migrating to or from my server.

What if WvW core did this as well? What if players could earn base points from captures/holds depending on a set back end measurement like, let’s say, Server members present at capture or present in map while item is held (per tick).

But I’m more curious to the hardcore WvW players thoughts on this matter. Could EoTM actually revitalize your WvW experience or would it remove and destroy all fun for you?

Remove as many rewards from capping objectives in EotM as possible and maybe EotM would be a palatable replacement to WvW. Probably not, since organization would still be nearly impossible and it would undoubtedly be incredibly zergy. Roaming would be fine, but say goodbye to small scale. 15v15 would turn rather quickly into 80v80, and that’s just a lagfest where one group gets 1-pushed by the other.

Fact is, no one goes to EotM for the fights except guild groups looking to troll the EotM ktrain. So unless they closed the distances and removed all the champion/karma/experiece farms, it’ll still be a place for ktrain pug zergs that utterly avoid each other as much as possible.

The way to save wvw is to make some changes to the match ups and the maps- there is no need to have three identical BL and a redesigned and improved and expanded series of EB (maps vary each week, some include much more water).

There are a huge number of map types and restrictions they could add in to make wvw much better than it is, but they just don’t see it as core to the game hence the lack of development over two years. Which is sad because it could have been great.

Quite frankly, I believe WvW needs serious improvement on any level (XP, maps, match-ups, Seasons, etc.) and not just a re-design of EotM.
WvW / PvP were supposed to be the core part of this game and they receive very little attention from Devs in terms of variety. After this horrible format for Season 3, I wonder who really is gonna stick to this old-fashion system and will not move to other games.

There’s a couple reasons why I go to EotM.

The first major reason why I play EotM is that I just don’t play during the peak hours. I’m a few hours earlier than peak, which happens to coincide with being heavily outmanned. Being outmanned in WvW isn’t fun.

Being outmanned in EotM doesn’t limit your fun as much.

The second reason why I go is because my server is rarely green. In fact it’s mostly blue. Being blue and having a Necro main is perfect for EotM. I’d be lucky to tag 10 green players while outmanned as blue in WvW, but in EotM I hunt zergs. I don’t look to pick off the trailers. I want to kill the entire “We’re better because we have better organization” players, otherwise known as the OG zerg.

The third main reason why I go into EotM is that I’m an Altaholic. When I get bored of killing zergs with my Necro I’ll try one of the other seven classes, all lvl 80, and just get used to them. Since WvW has made me not care about the score I have way more freedom in EotM to experiment.

Other reasons why I go to EotM:

You can actually use Oil, even Mortars.
Siege disablers are more fun, even if you never get reinforced.
You can always take something back, and then prepare defenses knowing that you will get attacked.
Anything that slows down the Ktrain is it’s own reward.

Some of you seem confused..

I’ll rephrase the question.

What if you played with All like color allied Servers in all the BL and EB maps just like you do in EoTM?

putting a lot of the mechanics that are in EoTM (no upgrades, smarter/tougher npcs, terrain, objective defensibility) into WvW and the 3 opposing sides for everyone would be great.

it will bring “fun” back to a “game” when people get all kitteny cause they are losing and/or can’t get enough people to flip a paper tower it is no longer “fun”

but selfish people who want the game their way will always oppose anything like that.

so what you have to do is make a whole new system to appease the minority and let them play in that system, so you’d have WvW, EoTM, and GvG “worlds”

so how about server transfers to not a more populated/active WvW server but transfers to different playstyle worlds.

people like me can put their money where their mouth is and since I love WvW I would transfer to a wvw “world” and not care about what I’m missing in the PvP Eotm GvG worlds

then I can bug the devs about a specific part of the game and not demand them to make me happy about every little thing I think should be implemented

signed
(getting tired of all the CDI and CDI and CDI……just do something)

Swish.2463:

Some of you seem confused..

I’ll rephrase the question.

What if you played with All like color allied Servers in all the BL and EB maps just like you do in EoTM?

EotM, like WvW is not balanced. Unbalanced WvW is fine if all you want to do is PvD, but when you want to PvP it is one of the reasons why players don’t participate in WvW as the week goes on.

The other thing that EotM doesn’t have that WvW has is coordination. When your group, regardless of size, follows the commands in teamspeak and moves as one and turns into a killing machine, that’s the best feeling in WvW. It’s what brings players back day after day.

The ZvZ that happens in EotM doesn’t even come close to the intensity found in WvW.

However, if you could even the numbers (coverage AND population) between red, green and blue while still having the coordination of group teamspeak, it wouldn’t matter if it’s WvW or EotM. It would be better than what we have now.

Swish.2463:

I preface this by stating that I am not a hardcore WvW player anymore, my commander tag gathers dust and WvW days are long over from launch and time spent on NS, FA, EB, etc..
[…]

But I’m more curious to the hardcore WvW players thoughts on this matter. Could EoTM actually revitalize your WvW experience or would it remove and destroy all fun for you?

It would be nice of people with “great revolutionary ideas about WvW”to AT LEAST read the huge thread about it initiated by a red that just “finished” like 2 days ago ????

And forcing people in an EotM side would basically kill WvW in no time. The ORGANIZATION and “pride” behind it is what makes WvW that interesting, and you can’t have that in a “let’s put random people from random servers together under one color with a painful and long as Hell work/taxi job anytime you want to play with your guild with other organized people instead of random jim and joe and jane number 43543363 to 43576457456547345”…..

And on top of that, we must not play the same EotM at all, since it’s basically dead every single day of the week from 00 UK time till mid morning both on Red and Blue side for over a month, with (when you are lucky, tagged up and such) AT MOST 10/15 people on those side (to the “only” 30+ on green).

People keep explaining EotM got “ruined” by the ktrain people, it never was. EotM was played by the “serious” players for like a month during queues… even the rewards (they didn’t realized it was that good) weren’t enough to keep them there, they preferred to go afk in LA till queue popped.

That place is a mess and a nightmare of cheesy chokepoints, totally unbalanced sides/objectives/match ups, and can never be anything serious, the day you remove rewards in there is the day it dies for good (as in : nobody will play there, since there is 80% upscalled leveling most of the time, and the few lvl80 are mostly there farming Wxp/badges/xp/karma/items/champ bags, doing dailies/monthlies, outside of the handful of people coming to grief as organized forces or do 20vs50+ upscalled people).

Put that sort of things in WvW and it’s Game Over, as simple as that. Right now, the only things still keeping WvW alive is that server and guild “pride” and the fact you know the people on the other side and love to “hate” them.

With random sides like with EotM that’s gone for good. No way to log in a place where you basically “know” everyone on your side and the ennemy’s side in one mu, recognize tags, build up “rivalries” or “friendships”.

People LOVE to face the same guilds regularily, because it builds up “attachment” and “meaning” (as much as a game can), same thing, people like being able to recognize the people they play with even if they aren’t guildies but from other guilds.

The EotM system makes that impossible or really really really terribly hard, time consuming and painfull to do.

The only things from EotM that should be transfered should be rewards (because WvW shouldn’t be a chore having 1/10th or less of anyone else rewards WHILE spending 10times+ if you actually do the job no one does like upgrading, buying siege for your guild and such), sentries consumables, and the tougher npcs (so we stop seeing solo/duo caps of Keeps/SM so easily, and caps become a bit of a challenge if you are low on numbers).

Rest should stay there, specially the throng of chokepoints, biased terrains, massive unbalance between sides, all the cheesy ledges for stupid fear walls/aoe knockdowns and such (and i abuse it too when outnumbered on my necro for lulz and income).

There is quite some ways to solve the population balance problem (but it’ll take time if Anet don’t grow a pair and remove all servers and redo a new list of servers only for WvW, without any PvE/PvP pop influence on it AND hard capping the pop on servers AND reducing the number of servers AND making transfert price free for the last 2 tiers and more and more expensive as you go up, with a penalty for transfering to a higher pop server, while totally locking out transferts to T1 AND blocking the creation of new accounts there).

Having the faceless and identity-less EotM system in WvW isn’t one at all…..

The addition of EotM to the game is a real head shaker on many levels:

• EotM is, but isn’t really, WvW..so right from the start things are a little bit ambiguous.

• Minute for minute, EotM is more rewarding in every tangible way for the participating player: Badges, Coin, Loot (bags and chests!), XP and Karma.

Corollary:
The WvW Map requires far more time and effort while offering less rewards than EotM; I see this as a major issue.

• EotM can be a largely PvP-less, the incentives will drive opposing sides to avoid the entanglements of direct combat. Now, this is not to say it doesn’t happen but generally speaking, the the trains run on separate tracks and hardly ever collide.

• The player-base becomes further split and segmented and vying sub-culture/play-styles arise that are often in conflict with each other.

Example:
What you learn in EotM is not necessarily applicable to general WvW, and the inverse is also true.

• Poor design is poor design. Submarine meet Screen Door. Screen doors are awesome! Submarines are cool! Put together, not so much.

While some design elements in EotM could have been used for improvements in WvW, ANet decided on a parallel system running in competition for the most part with a core system.

What I want/wish from ANet:

• Rebuild the WvW Maps from scratch:

-add unique faction geography instead of revolving generic cloned maps, a sense of persistence would make the fight and the setting more meaningful (DAoC illustrated this concept well)

-less throttling via obstacles but more choke-points; enemy players should be the obstacles not 10 minute runs around a huge cliff or impenetrable wall

• Put thought into what player behavior to encourage:

- defending territory should be more rewarding

- newly acquired holdings should have a period of vulnerability (gate strength, wall strength, Lord strength, etc.) for a certain time after being captured

-allow players to transport supplies, in other words, players can deposit supplies at any location capable of storage; current NPC supply caravans could be adjusted accordingly

after readomg the above post more carefully and considering the staleness of the current WvW map selection, I had an epiphany to prelude what I posted previously that follows.

WvW maps, new ones, could have drop in geodomes. Portions of the map could have geodomes that can be replaced by others, repositioned to other locations of the map, and/or rotated with different facing. This can occur at the start of each new week and the geodomes be placed randomly. New geodomes can be designed in the future and just dropped into a table of possible geodomes for a given week’s play.

Currently the reward rate in EotM is quite high. Granted most of it quickly becomes nearly useless or just trash, but it is far more rewarding item wise than WvW.

Sadly the items are underwhelming.

Now, that said, WvW needs a lot of work. Rewards being one of them. Something that alters game play often enough it doesn’t become so stale. I honestly don’t know what can be done, I can say this, until this Tournament I hadn’t played WvW for more than a few days of game time in the 2+ years since launch. At least the weapon skins were enticing.

Now that the tournament is ending I will likely not be doing much WvW, if I even continue to play the game much. I will return once something interesting happens, like Raids, but I expect that to be years into the future.

EOTM…..

waste of such a beautifully designed map.

I would quit the game.

GOSU.9574:

after readomg the above post more carefully and considering the staleness of the current WvW map selection, I had an epiphany to prelude what I posted previously that follows.

WvW maps, new ones, could have drop in geodomes. Portions of the map could have geodomes that can be replaced by others, repositioned to other locations of the map, and/or rotated with different facing. This can occur at the start of each new week and the geodomes be placed randomly. New geodomes can be designed in the future and just dropped into a table of possible geodomes for a given week’s play.

Currently the reward rate in EotM is quite high. Granted most of it quickly becomes nearly useless or just trash, but it is far more rewarding item wise than WvW.

Sadly the items are underwhelming.

Now, that said, WvW needs a lot of work. Rewards being one of them. Something that alters game play often enough it doesn’t become so stale. I honestly don’t know what can be done, I can say this, until this Tournament I hadn’t played WvW for more than a few days of game time in the 2+ years since launch. At least the weapon skins were enticing.

Now that the tournament is ending I will likely not be doing much WvW, if I even continue to play the game much. I will return once something interesting happens, like Raids, but I expect that to be years into the future.

Hooray for inspiration for ideas. It can come from strange discussions and places. Love the general idea personally to help change up the maps. Sounds difficult to implement tho.

The problem with “different maps” by bl, “geodomes” randomly (or not) moved around on each mu is the basic imbalance behind it.

The ONLY way to have something somewhat balanced is for all bl to be the same. Otherwise the slightest change (as seen is EB) creates problems.

The “best” thing you can have if you want “changes” is having multiple bl maps and change them once a week/month for ALL bls at the same time (and even then it’s probable there will be some imbalance between defenders/attackers, attackers on one side or another, it’s just, mostly, corrected by the fact bls are the same for all).

You could get various “versions” of the current bl maps with different graphisms/landscape inspired by regions in the World (like a sandy version, a Jungle version and so on) but even that could be too much.

Tekyn.5376:

EOTM…..

waste of such a beautifully designed map.

EotM isn’t “beautifully designed” it’s one of the worst possible mess for a WvW/RvR map ever designed, with everything that shouldn’t exist in those kinds of maps there.

It didn’t become a leveling/ktrain place because people took over, it become that way because it’s the only way to use it, PERIOD.

Filovirus.6258:

It didn’t become a leveling/ktrain place because people took over, it become that way because it’s the only way to use it, PERIOD.

Filovirus.6258:

That place is a mess and a nightmare of cheesy chokepoints,

Soooooo which is true ?
Chokepoints can destroy zergs or not ……
Englih not good huh ??? :P

I like EotM/WvW because of my specific subjective biases and preferences and if you made EotM/WvW more like WvW/EotM I would not be happy.

Am I doing it right?

I wish they would bring back some of the old GW1 systems and apply it to wvw. People are reward driven, so if it were me, i would do something like:

1. Add a new area (kinda like FotM) that is only accessible if you have x amount of points for your server (or win the map for a day). Of course you would have to balance the teams a bit better, but if it were per day rather than per week, that might help a bit cycling through off-times for different servers and whatnot.

2. Have this new area give unique skins/equipment, etc that will be in demand from the community. Have unique pvp finishers available here off drops from mobs. Have mobs drop better loot/money/karma here.

3. Each player kill drops a champion bag. Create more pvp finishers that have a chance as drops in these bags. The higher the rank of player that is killed, the higher chance of getting better loot (finishers, precursors, t6 mats, more money, etc)

This applies to WvW and not EotM. EotM is good for what its designed to be. Low key karma farming, etc. WvW is what is stale and needs more incentive to pvp and ‘win’.

Filovirus.6258:

Tekyn.5376:

EOTM…..

waste of such a beautifully designed map.

EotM isn’t “beautifully designed” it’s one of the worst possible mess for a WvW/RvR map ever designed, with everything that shouldn’t exist in those kinds of maps there.

It didn’t become a leveling/ktrain place because people took over, it become that way because it’s the only way to use it, PERIOD.

Sure it is. If you don’t see it that way that’s your opinion, I think you’re wrong.

The detail that EOTM has far surpasses what you see in the borderland maps. The multiple routes and paths you can take in EOTM outnumbers the paths in the borderlands and EB map. The complexity of the events and the mechanics of EOTM are more interesting then the other WvW maps. I mean seriously, Air Strikes, Sentry Turrets, Wurm tunnels? what compares to those on the normal WvW maps?

And for the record I didn’t say anything about how it was or was not a karma train. Don’t troll my post with nonsense that I didn’t bring up. I was only talking about the design of the map, not the way it gets used.

EoTM single handedly destroyed WvW – At the time we had ques and there was a need to relieve that so players had something to do while they waited
The issue is that there is no longer ques and there is no longer an incentive to do regular WvW

-Constantly outmanned because you are on low pop. server? Goto EoTM
-Wanna level up your alt? Goto EotM
-Want better rewards? Goto EotM
-Want to just follow a huge zerg around? Goto EotM

It has divided a dwindling population and creates too many incentives especially for newer players – it is killing WvW

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Filovirus.6258:

It didn’t become a leveling/ktrain place because people took over, it become that way because it’s the only way to use it, PERIOD.

Filovirus.6258:

That place is a mess and a nightmare of cheesy chokepoints,

Soooooo which is true ?
Chokepoints can destroy zergs or not ……
Englih not good huh ??? :P

My english is good actually, and i said exactly what i wanted to say, not my problem you can’t understand 20 basic words….. and yet come running your mouth with foam at your lips.

Once again, EotM is not used as a ktrain place because people took over from “legit” players, it became a ktrain/leveling place because nobody could stand that nightmare place for remotely serious WvW with it’s massive built in imbalance, insane advantages/handicaps to certain professions/specs, and so on.

Oh and the problem isn’t that chokepoints destroy zergs or not, it’s that there is FAR too much chokepoints/cheesy force passages, on top of pretty much the whole map being reduced to : “i’m first to build siege with the same or more people, i win, you won’t ever go through there as long as 10% of our force is there”.

If you can’t see the problem with that, i feel for you, you have a major problem……

(hint : it has to do with Game Design 101 and Balance 101 concepts)

EotM is probably the most rewarding train out there by a longshot. Karma, Gold, WXP and Badges beyond belief? Badges especially because it takes FOREVER to get in WvW. I got 2 the other day just for capping my own garrison, really? I would assume most people are there just to ktrain and many of them are PvE players trying to get to 80 as fast as possible. People tend to flock to the most rewarding game mode and that’s EotM. They really should haven’t added wxp and Badges to EotM, just more reasons not to play WvW.

Mizu.4508:

EotM is probably the most rewarding train out there by a longshot. Karma, Gold, WXP and Badges beyond belief? Badges especially because it takes FOREVER to get in WvW. I got 2 the other day just for capping my own garrison, really? I would assume most people are there just to ktrain and many of them are PvE players trying to get to 80 as fast as possible. People tend to flock to the most rewarding game mode and that’s EotM. They really should haven’t added wxp and Badges to EotM, just more reasons not to play WvW.

That’s why EotM is popular/there is people using it yes. (that and the change of pace/difference with regular WvW, where you don’t need to organize, where it’s more fast paced and something different)

That’s not why EotM isn’t used as a “real” WvW map. WvW players wouldn’t mind the income for most (there is still weirdos wanting to crush the rewards to put them inline with WvW ones instead of the other way around, still don’t know why, they must consider earning income is “shameful” or something xD), but that map (and the way players/guilds/servers/whatever are matched to it) is just not tolerable for any sort of “serious”/competitive WvW.

It’s what the people pretending ktrain ruined EotM don’t get. There was roughly 2/3 weeks with people using it as a “real” WvW map at start. That the time it took for people to find all the cheesy chokepoints/ledges to fear people to death, kill bridges to death, AoE knockback to death, while realizing some sides had a MASSIVE advantage over other sides, and some objectives were simply not capable if there was just 5/10 defenders with siege in it(cough blue keep), with an insanely painful movement around the maps, far too much verticality, and so on and so on, and then totally lost interest in it.

Then for nearly a month EotM was empty on all sides… before people realized how profitable/easy to get xp it was in this place, wich made people come back there to level up and farm badges/karma/whatever.

That’s what happens, not ktrain people “forcing out” real WvW players out of EotM. Those ones took EotM exactly for what it was (not “serious” WvW and only a place to screw around for “lulz” once in a blue moon) and moved to back to WvW (specially with queues mostly disappearing at that time with players moving to other games and not coming back), and the maps were empty.

Oh and most WvW players don’t play for the rewards at all, they play because it’s fun as Hell when it’s not totally unbalanced (and even then you can find your fun here and there sometimes).

Putting the EotM rewards level in WvW would be a first step to bring people back in WvW too.
Right now, who in their right mind that aren’t in GW2 for the RvR/WvW (those players started GW2 AGGGGGGGGGGGGEEESSS ago and are on WvW already, or left already) would start and stay regularily in WvW outside of a couple people “falling in love” with WvW with the abysmal level of rewards and the insane gold sink that sieging/upgrading is ???

Anyone see really fast that you easily do, without effort at all, more gold in 1h of (bad) dungeon running than in 3/4h of WvW (far more).

That’s a problem. WvW shouldn’t have 10% of the rewards other modes gives, while having 10000 times the gold sink…..

Filovirus.6258:

Mizu.4508:

EotM is probably the most rewarding train out there by a longshot. Karma, Gold, WXP and Badges beyond belief? Badges especially because it takes FOREVER to get in WvW. I got 2 the other day just for capping my own garrison, really? I would assume most people are there just to ktrain and many of them are PvE players trying to get to 80 as fast as possible. People tend to flock to the most rewarding game mode and that’s EotM. They really should haven’t added wxp and Badges to EotM, just more reasons not to play WvW.

That’s why EotM is popular/there is people using it yes. (that and the change of pace/difference with regular WvW, where you don’t need to organize, where it’s more fast paced and something different)

That’s not why EotM isn’t used as a “real” WvW map. WvW players wouldn’t mind the income for most (there is still weirdos wanting to crush the rewards to put them inline with WvW ones instead of the other way around, still don’t know why, they must consider earning income is “shameful” or something xD), but that map (and the way players/guilds/servers/whatever are matched to it) is just not tolerable for any sort of “serious”/competitive WvW.

It’s what the people pretending ktrain ruined EotM don’t get. There was roughly 2/3 weeks with people using it as a “real” WvW map at start. That the time it took for people to find all the cheesy chokepoints/ledges to fear people to death, kill bridges to death, AoE knockback to death, while realizing some sides had a MASSIVE advantage over other sides, and some objectives were simply not capable if there was just 5/10 defenders with siege in it(cough blue keep), with an insanely painful movement around the maps, far too much verticality, and so on and so on, and then totally lost interest in it.

Then for nearly a month EotM was empty on all sides… before people realized how profitable/easy to get xp it was in this place, wich made people come back there to level up and farm badges/karma/whatever.

That’s what happens, not ktrain people “forcing out” real WvW players out of EotM. Those ones took EotM exactly for what it was (not “serious” WvW and only a place to screw around for “lulz” once in a blue moon) and moved to back to WvW (specially with queues mostly disappearing at that time with players moving to other games and not coming back), and the maps were empty.

Oh and most WvW players don’t play for the rewards at all, they play because it’s fun as Hell when it’s not totally unbalanced (and even then you can find your fun here and there sometimes).

Putting the EotM rewards level in WvW would be a first step to bring people back in WvW too.
Right now, who in their right mind that aren’t in GW2 for the RvR/WvW (those players started GW2 AGGGGGGGGGGGGEEESSS ago and are on WvW already, or left already) would start and stay regularily in WvW outside of a couple people “falling in love” with WvW with the abysmal level of rewards and the insane gold sink that sieging/upgrading is ???

Anyone see really fast that you easily do, without effort at all, more gold in 1h of (bad) dungeon running than in 3/4h of WvW (far more).

That’s a problem. WvW shouldn’t have 10% of the rewards other modes gives, while having 10000 times the gold sink…..

Just because you repeat the same thing over and over doesn’t make it true. Seems like you are pretty mad about these “cheesy” choke points and getting feared off of ledges. When I can find an overflow with actual fights it’s fun. I will never get the lets run in a circle avoiding fights and fighting doors style of play. I’m pretty sure Anet didn’t intend for the map to be used the way it is currently being used.

I enjoy WvW immensely.

Conversely, I find EotM painfully boring and only venture in if I have absolutely nothing better to do, or need some quick karma that for some odd reason can’t be obtained at the moment in WvW.

Thus, if all of WvW became like EotM I would probably cease to play this game.

EotM, as it exists currently, has 0 goals, 0 objectives, and 0 purpose other than to run around and cap points repeatedly. It is a mindless scramble across all ends of the map.

It has nothing to do with the map design, and everything to do with the fact that there is no identity or ‘team’ (arbitrary colors like red, blue, and green do NOT count as teams) to play for, and thus no need to employ tactics or attempt to hold territory, and no record to keep track of.

In short, EotM was a decent idea that has been terribly implemented and now only detracts from the game as a whole.

EotM = total, 100% fail.

It’s not even used as the “testing ground for new features” that Anet claimed it was for.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Filovirus.6258:

Mizu.4508:

EotM is probably the most rewarding train out there by a longshot. Karma, Gold, WXP and Badges beyond belief? Badges especially because it takes FOREVER to get in WvW. I got 2 the other day just for capping my own garrison, really? I would assume most people are there just to ktrain and many of them are PvE players trying to get to 80 as fast as possible. People tend to flock to the most rewarding game mode and that’s EotM. They really should haven’t added wxp and Badges to EotM, just more reasons not to play WvW.

That’s why EotM is popular/there is people using it yes. (that and the change of pace/difference with regular WvW, where you don’t need to organize, where it’s more fast paced and something different)

That’s not why EotM isn’t used as a “real” WvW map. WvW players wouldn’t mind the income for most (there is still weirdos wanting to crush the rewards to put them inline with WvW ones instead of the other way around, still don’t know why, they must consider earning income is “shameful” or something xD), but that map (and the way players/guilds/servers/whatever are matched to it) is just not tolerable for any sort of “serious”/competitive WvW.
[…]

Just because you repeat the same thing over and over doesn’t make it true. Seems like you are pretty mad about these “cheesy” choke points and getting feared off of ledges. When I can find an overflow with actual fights it’s fun. I will never get the lets run in a circle avoiding fights and fighting doors style of play. I’m pretty sure Anet didn’t intend for the map to be used the way it is currently being used.

Just because you can’t read don’t mean what you say is true…..

The whole cheesy fear/kb, chokepoints all over with loooonnng space to cross, with multiple vertical layers, with total side umbalance and so on and so on is the basics of “bad design 101”, with the total inability to balance anything, wich means in return, it can’t be used in any sort of “competitive” way (that part REQUIRES balance, otherwise it’s like matchin a pro team against the physically challenged 12years old from your neighborhood and pretending they are playing in the “same league”…..) and that’s the (main) problem with EotM.

All the rest of the behaviours comes from that.

Once a gain it’s a FACT that EotM failed to attire the WvW players and despite massive queues all over around EotM release, and far lower rewards in WvW they prefered to sit on their kitten in LA than to keep playing EotM after a few weeks, and it’s when the EotM went basically empty for a couple weeks, before altoholics/ktrainers realized it could be profitable and made it into what it is now.

And, once again, i don’t play EotM much (only to level alts actually, wich i don’t really do much, i do my dailies in EotM and not much more), i spend most of my time in WvW, and on top of that, i’ve used and abused the cheesy Necro Fear Wall for kitten and giggles too (and for income when there is like 5/10 people on the map for our side, wich is pretty much most of the time i can play EotM when my server isn’t green, wich means most of the time for the past few months).

That doesn’t make it less terrible design at all.

A design that advantages, by design, certain professions/builds and make it so ONE player can take out/stop/block/kill MASSIVE numbers of opponents, not through skills but just through unbalanced design is a TERRIBLY BAD DESIGN.

And EotM is a place that make relatively organized WvW totally impossible (by that i mean “organized side against organized side” not “let’s grab 15/20 guildmates over TS with WvW builds/gear and let’s go farm unorganized upscalled to prove we have a bigger one in our pants lulz”), between the shape of the land, the way sides are made, the way overflows are managed, and all the other things in it.

You can pretend all day long that it is a ktrain (with far more fights overall than you pretend, because usually zergs fight each others when they encounter each others, unless they aren’t green and are tired of being farmed 1v5 all day long) because “PvEers ruined it” (the motto of dumb self appointed “l33t” WvWers with no clue out there), but it’s not the case at all, it was abandoned by the WvW community in no time, because it’s not what they want and THEN it became a ktrain/leveling map (and actually it’s a good thing, you don’t want those upscalled people/ktrain people in WvW all day long, they are free to do what they want in EotM, without impacting the more “serious” play in WvW, and without being rallybots/liability that partially ruins the fun of people in WvW. Ie : it’s a win-win situation).

Filovirus.6258:

You can pretend all day long that it is a ktrain (with far more fights overall than you pretend, because usually zergs fight each others when they encounter each others, unless they aren’t green and are tired of being farmed 1v5 all day long)

It is a ktrain. And these so-called “fights” you’re talking about consist of 30-50 PvE uplevel zerglings that have never stepped foot in real WvW, and thus get facerolled by anyone that has, or one person just fearing entire zergs off cliffs. Even a group of 5-10 skilled WvWers in an EotM zerg can easily wipe out the better part of another side’s zerg…I don’t call that particularly fun. Give me the real fights in WvW any day.

EotM =/= WvW. It comes nowhere close, and it is a glorified karma train. Pretending it’s anything else is ridiculous. Turning WvW into the monstrosity that is EotM is the best way to kill the game mode.

storiessave.3807:

Filovirus.6258:

You can pretend all day long that it is a ktrain (with far more fights overall than you pretend, because usually zergs fight each others when they encounter each others, unless they aren’t green and are tired of being farmed 1v5 all day long)

It is a ktrain. And these so-called “fights” you’re talking about consist of 30-50 PvE uplevel zerglings that have never stepped foot in real WvW, and thus get facerolled by anyone that has, or one person just fearing entire zergs off cliffs. Even a group of 5-10 skilled WvWers in an EotM zerg can easily wipe out the better part of another side’s zerg…I don’t call that particularly fun. Give me the real fights in WvW any day.

Lets be truthful here and stop exaggerating. The only reason why 5-10 ‘skilled’ WvWers can take out a zerg in EotM is either the zerg is all uplevel and/or the 5-10 players are in voice chat, whereas the pug zerg has to rely on text chat. I’ve seen these so-called zerg buster guilds jump into EoTM to troll. And they have all sorts of success. Until they run into a pug zerg that actually knows how to stack might/dodge/pvp/etc. Then guess what? The troll guild leaves EoTM with their tail between their legs, and the zerg keeps on in EoTM.

Basch.1347:

Remove as many rewards from capping objectives in EotM as possible and maybe EotM would be a palatable replacement to WvW. Probably not, since organization would still be nearly impossible and it would undoubtedly be incredibly zergy. Roaming would be fine, but say goodbye to small scale. 15v15 would turn rather quickly into 80v80, and that’s just a lagfest where one group gets 1-pushed by the other.

Fact is, no one goes to EotM for the fights except guild groups looking to troll the EotM ktrain. So unless they closed the distances and removed all the champion/karma/experiece farms, it’ll still be a place for ktrain pug zergs that utterly avoid each other as much as possible.

It sounds to me that you want to turn it into Guild Wars 1’s Alliance Battle.

Filovirus.6258:

If you can’t see the problem with that, i feel for you, you have a major problem……

(hint : it has to do with Game Design 101 and Balance 101 concepts)

Dont throw at my face , such silly words …
Even ppl with 25% math score and 0% programmer skills like myself , can use their left over brain cells to think properly …

You are telling me that Eotm are is full of zergs , and that is the fault of the company for not disigning otherwise …
Then you are telling others that 1 simply Necro can throw a ZERG in the cliffs ….

So if 1 SIMPLY NECRO CAN KILL A 50 MAN ZERG = then Eotm is still a zerg map or karma train map ?

What kind of logic is that ?
By that logic Eotm wouldnt ever be a zerg-train map as you proclaim … but a DEAD MAP that no1 would play that unfun map , where every brighe would have a Necro or Enginner , and NOT A SINGLE TOWER would be flipped ……

Try to use some logic and think what you have typed ……

Edit: I am sorry i am kittened agry with the leave of a dev in the pvp side …

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Filovirus.6258:

If you can’t see the problem with that, i feel for you, you have a major problem……

(hint : it has to do with Game Design 101 and Balance 101 concepts)

Dont throw at my face , such silly words …
Even ppl with 25% math score and 0% programmer skills like myself , can use their left over brain cells to think properly …

You are telling me that Eotm are is full of zergs , and that is the fault of the company for not disigning otherwise …
Then you are telling others that 1 simply Necro can throw a ZERG in the cliffs ….

So if 1 SIMPLY NECRO CAN KILL A 50 MAN ZERG = then Eotm is still a zerg map or karma train map ?

What kind of logic is that ?
By that logic Eotm wouldnt ever be a zerg-train map as you proclaim … but a DEAD MAP that no1 would play that unfun map , where every brighe would have a Necro or Enginner , and NOT A SINGLE TOWER would be flipped ……

Try to use some logic and think what you have typed ……

Edit: I am sorry i am kittened agry with the leave of a dev in the pvp side …

You are proving with every post you have negative maths scores and zero logic….

Actually everyday one silly necro push half/entire zergs of edges/bridges/cliffs in EotM…
Now there is FAR less necros (and others) doing that than people playing/overflows/mus and so on for once.

And then, it’s fun 10 mins (the time to do a video) then it’s gone because it basically means you spend a LOOONNGG time (and even longer with massively unbalanced mu like now with green stomping everything else) for a zerg to show up IF you chose the right place.

That doesn’t change the fact that despite chokepoints and cheesy points, the rest of the map isn’t adapted for any sort of remotely “serious” and organized WvW, wich means there is 2 possible outcomes :
- income (as in "everything you can get from it, xp, wxp, badges, karma, items, gold, whatever) is high enough to entice people to play there as long as it’s remotely playable (ie : not trolly/painfull enough to make them go do that elsewhere instead) and it’s playable
- income don’t overcome the drawbacks/problems, and the map is empty (what happens 12/16+h a day on Red/Blue side currently in EU, with people considering the little income they can muster in between Green’s sessions of farming them 80+vs15)

That doesn’t change the fact that the map is so poorly designed it won’t sustain organized WvW ever without MASSIVE change, and hence it became a ktrain/zerg map (because it’s the only enjoyable/benefitable way to use that map).

Remove that and EotM dies in under a week, you’ll have the cheesy bullies there for about a week after, top, then they’ll realize they don’t have the easy kitten stroking/back padding from killing upscaled with cheesy builds on a badly designed map, and they’ll leave too (they aren’t there for the “good fights”, like all the guilds pretending so but handholding/forming blobs to outnumber opponents the second they can’t roflstomp a group nearly their size aren’t).

EotM is pretty fine as it is (it needs a bit of a balance pass, a bit of bug fix), and the last thing it needs is :
- trying to make it a WvW map
- removing the rewards/putting them in line with WvW rewards

Changes that could be nice is if it actually really became a “testing ground” for some WvW developements/mechanics, because it would have far less impact there, and you would have the time to test it (granted not everything could be tested there but quite some).

Same way, Sentries and the Vet/Lords the level of EotM would be nice in WvW, same with rewards (so you aren’t running at a loss H24 in WvW, even when you are PvDing for hours without opposition….it’s still less benefitable than an underpar EotM map).

Once again, you twart things to fit what you pretend it is, when you don’t understand a bit about it.
You really want to take 2s to think for once (and apply the ghost of the logic you pretend to have to it…..).

I’m not l33t at all and not pretend to be.
I just state a simple fact, ktrain didn’t “push out” “real” WvW from EotM, WvW players did by leaving the game mode as soon as they started getting the “feel” of the map, due to it’s insane levels of built in unbalance and cheesy tactics and chokepoints, added to ridiculously long running trips.

You can pretend whatever you want in your head, that’s what happened when EotM was released.
It’s weeks later than people realized it was good income/ways of leveling toons without wanting to kill yourself every 5 mins doing the exact same maps once more (after 3/4/8+ toons and multiple map completion it’s just impossible).

All your list of things being the “best” way to get x or y is nice and dandy… but has no bearing there.

Once again, people aren’t in EotM to farm karma OR items OR gold… they are there because it is the best place to farm everything at all.
Nothing compares to that.

Nowhere else you can get xp/Wxp/karma/gold/items/mats at that pace.

On top of that there is a reason the VAST majority of EotM are upscaled (ie : leveling their toons you know, things you don’t do in level 75+ zones….), it’s because it’s interesting for them to be there.

The need for better rewards in WvW have been expressed dozens of time already btw, wich proves you have no clue.

EotM won’t become what you “dream” it would be without massive changes, and the day it happens, you’ll go cry in a corner because it won’t be what you want.

For better or worse, we have something WORKING there, and fulfilling a need from the community, let’s not break them because of kitten envious angry kiddos like you ?

The map is used by the community the way it is now, because there is no other interesting way to use it for.

As a “real” WvW maps it becomes a nightmare in a couple hours, one you never want to go back again, making look current WvW in bronze leagues and thieves/mesmer’s roamers in WvW “balanced” in comparison, and it is why it’s not used like that.

It’s not, once again, like you pretend and people forced WvW’ers out. They took the door on their own because they didn’t like it (there is dozens of threads on the forums around EotM release voicing the fact that “Anet screwed up with EotM it’s a bad WvW map” in there, and other variations, with explanations of people to why they’ll never come back, and the ktrain flipping objectives wasn’t even a theorical concept at that time….

Remove the rewards, and EotM dies, it’s as simple as that because it’s what brings people there.
Remove the incentive/“ability” to be there and profit from the people leveling toons (the vast majority of EotM players, once again) and EotM dies.

I don’t know for you, but i’m not one that want to destroy other’s way of having fun/playing the way they want just because i don’t like it and i’m kitten about it, what about you ?

I’m all for EotM existing, I agree it is filling a desire/need of the community at this point, I didn’t read more than some of the later replies of this topic however. I think they could just as well take the PvP out of it at this point granted. Take it out of the Mists, or at the very least not associate it with WvW (Ranks). EotM could have been a WvW map, but it is excluded from the matchup, and it is as such, not interesting to those interested in WvW as a war effort. Who in their right mind cares that it places a supply source in your home border? Oh, I better leave my other map and get some Supply from there, it sure helps that it can’t be made +5 too, right?

EotM got turned into a PvE map, because PvP players interested in WvW, aren’t interested in running around in a map that doesn’t help win the war against two other servers. Since they never took interest, PvE’ers has taken over the map, turning it into some silly (disgusting when thinking about what it could have been) pseudo-PvP thing, where servers run around in circles avoiding each other most of the time.

You could “Karma-train” Eternal Battleground or any of the copy-pasta Borderland maps as well. It just doesn’t happen, because there is an actual struggle going on there to win. You win nothing granted (3x hoorah for empty rewards!), but some seem to still have their fun being on the winning side of a matchup. I get a bit sad when I see Edge of the Mists. I’d play on it, if it had PvP, if it had been a part of the matchup. It’s a beautiful map after all. Shame they ended up implementing it how they did.

Again though, take out WXP from Edge of the Mists. It’s not a WvW map, not a part of the matchup and war effort, you shouldn’t be able to get WvW Ranks there in my humble opinion.

Wxp and badges in EotM are fine, it actually keep all the players that are there just for farming those outside of Wvw while allowing regular WvW players to farm those efficiently without making the whole WvW maps too much zerg PvD ktrains.

On top of that, it allows low populated servers/servers that are being decimated to still grab those without going to full PvE maps (there is still some WvW in there, even if not much).

Add the fact it gives a first impression/try of WvW to lots of people (basic mechanics once again, nothing fancy, but enough to make them part of pretty much any WvW pub zerg if they want to, and then evolve from there if they feel like it) and it’s a pretty nice place filling up a need in the game.

And everyone seems to regret how “great” it could have been but you surely didn’t play it around release then, because it become insanely stupidly boring, frustrating and bad for “serious” WvW in under a week for most people (and not only because it didn’t count towards PPT/helping your server win, but because all the map design is a nightmare WvW wise).

Please no, why would you transfer EotM to WvW? Just go to EotM and leave WvW alone. Thanks

Instead of wasting their resources and our time on something like EOTM, players should be placed in a 2×4 cubicle and a steady stream of rewards (badges, karma, materials, etc.) should be mailed to us for each minute that one is in the cubicle.

This way we go AFK could do something more fun or useful like watch TV, read a book, exercise, cook, etc,

so basically you are proposing to take the world out of world vs world. It would then be red vs blue vs green. Not world(server) vs world vs world.

Thanks to social media most of the easy mode players have relocated to one server. They just map hop and take everything at will.

This frustrates the people that stay and they give up and quit making the situation worse.

The NPC keep taking contest that is EOTM is really a model of what is happening now in WvW. So why not just eliminate WvW and make EOTM primary?

lets not be awful fun ruiners. i love EotM, i com there, roam there and level alts there (my whole guild lvls alts there). but i also play a hell of a lot of WvW, and roam, zerg, havok squad all of it. there are positive things about both maps that people love, so i say keep them like they are. go to eotm for the uplvl ktrain, go to EB for the havok group. don’t try and ruin other people’s fun just because it’s not your type of fun.

tldr: go to the map you like and don’t go to the one you don’t. gosh.