Guild Wars 2

Here is to hoping that they fix Dragons Tooth before the launch of the expansion after Heart of Thorns!

Nokaru.7831:

Here is to hoping that they fix Dragons Tooth before the launch of the expansion after Heart of Thorns!

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

Spurnshadow.3678:

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Today, Arena net took some serious actions against The AC Exploit: they should be appreciated for the effort and hard-work. Any serious actions taken with effort and hard-work should be appreciated

Any serious actions against: High Bursts, high mobility, Reward-No Risk, Zero-Low Cool-down on Powerful Skills, Instant Kill, Power Creep, Condition Creep, d/d elementalist, Thief, mesmer, guardian, burning conditions and stealth professions hiding in keep after players sacrificed their time in working hard with great effort to take the keep?

DarkSyze.8627:

Any serious actions taken with effort and hard-work should be appreciated

Please yes.

We’ve had more red name posts in this thread than in any other time in recent history: primarily because people haven’t been in attack mode.

I can totally appreciate that HoT took up a huge amount of time and resources, and it’s nice to see some crucial issues being addressed.

KURU TIME FOR THE WHITE KNIGHT! chop chop

Jayne.9251:

KURU TIME FOR THE WHITE KNIGHT! chop chop

A fix that isn’t even complete yet and everyone’s kittening themselves. That shows how neglected WvW has been.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Jayne.9251:

KURU TIME FOR THE WHITE KNIGHT! chop chop

A fix that isn’t even complete yet and everyone’s kittening themselves. That shows how neglected WvW has been.

DON’T MAKE ME HUG YOU!!!!

C’mon! :p

Kamara.4187:

That’s wonderful news, and its always nice to see a red name in the wvw forum.

However that is only part of the problem. Players can still hit siege without having a true LOS with ground targeting specials, or attack the “underside” of a bridge/walkway that siege is sitting on and still be able to destroy it.

If those issues are not addressed as well then defending just became much more difficult.

On the same note I would much prefer seeing engineers having an expanded role in being able to take out siege and gates. I do not have a engineer avatar, but it just makes sense that the class would be specialized for such a thing in wvw. And rangers should be able to use barrage when defending from the top of a wall. In fact they are easier to kill than an arrow cart LOL.

Hi remember this?

Well its happening and defenders are getting crunched because player ground targeting specials can still hit the top of walls. Now they are sitting ducks.

The LOS needed to be addressed for both AC and player ground targeting specials where keep walls were concerned :S.

morrolan.9608:

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

Yeah, and I really don’t understand why some skill don’t need LOS….
Like the line with the staf on the guardian… Swiftnes need LOS, but not the ligne….

Each skill should use LOS all the time. And the camera should be change each time you take siege (like treb). The best way to fix ac (except for cheater who need to be ban) is to lock the camera when you are on siege.

Thank-you for these changes.

Welcome to this forum Zach!

Kamara.4187:

Kamara.4187:

That’s wonderful news, and its always nice to see a red name in the wvw forum.

However that is only part of the problem. Players can still hit siege without having a true LOS with ground targeting specials, or attack the “underside” of a bridge/walkway that siege is sitting on and still be able to destroy it.

If those issues are not addressed as well then defending just became much more difficult.

On the same note I would much prefer seeing engineers having an expanded role in being able to take out siege and gates. I do not have a engineer avatar, but it just makes sense that the class would be specialized for such a thing in wvw. And rangers should be able to use barrage when defending from the top of a wall. In fact they are easier to kill than an arrow cart LOL.

Hi remember this?

Well its happening and defenders are getting crunched because player ground targeting specials can still hit the top of walls. Now they are sitting ducks.

The LOS needed to be addressed for both AC and player ground targeting specials where keep walls were concerned :S.

Personally I don’t feel that negative about some skills that don’t requite line of sight – like the dragon tooth or the guardian staff.

In case of skills, they both have relatively short range, and because of that limited use – taking down siege with dragon tooth while possible takes considerately long time, and a tanky character can still operate the attacked siege quite safely.

The guardian staff 1 does rather weak damage, and in practice cannot be used to take siege. (Imagine if it would be, then people could just take enemy rams from inside with that)

Just overdoing things is just as bad as not fixing them. I would rather have fixed things that are clearly wrong than risk breaking balance the other way around.

Though the one thing that has always bothered me is how the defenders ability to shoot from the walls is crippled.
You would expect to have some tiny range bonus, and also you should be able to shoot enemy without standing directly on the edge of the wall.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

X T D.6458:

Id like to ask about the other part of todays update, regarding killing players in spaces they are not allowed to be, does that include spawn sites because that would be doubly great.

Rather than being killed, players should always get teleported out of hostile spawn areas now.

Thanks that clears things up.

X T D.6458:

Zachary Stiers.1879:

The change I mentioned previously is multi-part. The change that makes all arrow carts use line-of-sight did indeed go out today, but the second part about the arrow cart line-of-sight checks being too forgiving was not part of today’s build. The changes to the way arrow cart line-of-sight is calculated is set for an upcoming patch.

Thanks for the update and help, many of us appreciate the effort.

Id like to ask about the other part of todays update, regarding killing players in spaces they are not allowed to be, does that include spawn sites because that would be doubly great.

And cant wait to get the rest of the ac update, please dont take to long

I thought citadel, but spawn would be good as well. Even better would be under the map…….

morrolan.9608:

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

I didn’t say it was bugged. Something working as intended (not bugged) doesn’t mean it’s functioning the way it was designed. Fiery Rush wasn’t bugged either, but it’s pretty safe to say the changes they made fixed it.

DarkSyze.8627:

Spurnshadow.3678:

I’ll believe it when I see it.

and stealth professions hiding in keep after players sacrificed their time in working hard with great effort to take the keep?

You made the mistake of thinking the job was done when the circle was capped. That’s YOUR fault, not any mesmer’s “fault” that may be hiding in a keep you just “captured”. If you leave without a thorough sweep, you seriously DESERVE to lose anything you took as soon as RI wears off.

Doesn’t sweep? What a lazy tush….

Oh, and I logged in specifically to say that either nothing has changed or someone is camera hacking, because Ebay just lost all siege at south Hills when an enemy group put an AC in the outside niche of the wall and killed a lot of siege they couldn’t see on inner Hills. NSP group.

They basically fixed that you can’t shoot through walls anymore, but have to next adjust how far the LOS should be (the inner siege killers with an outer ac) for next patch. It’s a two-part fix.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Jayne.9251:

KURU TIME FOR THE WHITE KNIGHT! chop chop

A fix that isn’t even complete yet and everyone’s kittening themselves. That shows how neglected WvW has been.

You need to forgive people who have been walking in the dark tunnel for 3 years and see a glimpse of light at the far end. Naturally they would run to embrace the hero …

SkyChef.5432:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Jayne.9251:

KURU TIME FOR THE WHITE KNIGHT! chop chop

A fix that isn’t even complete yet and everyone’s kittening themselves. That shows how neglected WvW has been.

You need to forgive people who have been walking in the dark tunnel for 3 years and see a glimpse of light at the far end. Naturally they would run to embrace the hero …

Considering the last few glimpses of light were trains coming head on, they might want to be a little careful running towards it.

Liston.9708:

X T D.6458:

Zachary Stiers.1879:

The change I mentioned previously is multi-part. The change that makes all arrow carts use line-of-sight did indeed go out today, but the second part about the arrow cart line-of-sight checks being too forgiving was not part of today’s build. The changes to the way arrow cart line-of-sight is calculated is set for an upcoming patch.

Thanks for the update and help, many of us appreciate the effort.

Id like to ask about the other part of todays update, regarding killing players in spaces they are not allowed to be, does that include spawn sites because that would be doubly great.

And cant wait to get the rest of the ac update, please dont take to long

I thought citadel, but spawn would be good as well. Even better would be under the map…….

I asked about spawn site, because I assume citadel is considered spawn site. Considering the other changes in the update like making vendor npcs noncombative so they cant be killed by people using exploits/stealth to get into the citadel, and now people cant sneak into spawn/citadel areas to troll/break siege etc. So this is a nice fix to both, hopefully it prevents flying/underground exploits as well

Nokaru.7831:

morrolan.9608:

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

I didn’t say it was bugged. Something working as intended (not bugged) doesn’t mean it’s functioning the way it was designed.

Working as intended but not as designed is contradictory. How was it designed to function?

morrolan.9608:

Working as intended but not as designed is contradictory. How was it designed to function?

It’s not contradictory. Fiery Rush is a good example of working as intended, but not functioning as designed. The skill works exactly the way it was supposed to, but players use it in a way that designers did not foresee. If you had a skill that was supposed to remove 3 conditions, but it only removed 1, this would be not working as intended; it would be bugged.

it seems nothing has changed for the AC fix. was defending hill yesterday, and red circle can still reach the ground inside the keep although the enemy AC was very close to the wall.

Nokaru.7831:

morrolan.9608:

Working as intended but not as designed is contradictory. How was it designed to function?

It’s not contradictory. Fiery Rush is a good example of working as intended, but not functioning as designed. The skill works exactly the way it was supposed to, but players use it in a way that designers did not foresee. If you had a skill that was supposed to remove 3 conditions, but it only removed 1, this would be not working as intended; it would be bugged.

OK as I asked how was DT designed to function?

Ths ac’s are always broken atm… You can always place offensive ac and destroy everything inside, arrow going through the wall…
But I have see some no LOS yesterday, place 1 ac defending lake tower against SR cata, just bellow the lord room (between lord room and supply hut). And I wasn’t able to shoot on cata because no LOS…

Apparently the first patch begin to correct some thing… But not all…. Apparently a second patch will be out to complete the first one.

morrolan.9608:

Nokaru.7831:

Here is to hoping that they fix Dragons Tooth before the launch of the expansion after Heart of Thorns!

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

Dragons Tooth should be checked by Line of sight. Dragons Tooth or any other skill from players for that matter should go off on a player that is “safe” behind their walls, out of Line of sight. Be it a bug or an exploit, it should be looked into.

isylum.6425:

morrolan.9608:

Nokaru.7831:

Here is to hoping that they fix Dragons Tooth before the launch of the expansion after Heart of Thorns!

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

Dragons Tooth should be checked by Line of sight. Dragons Tooth or any other skill from players for that matter should go off on a player that is “safe” behind their walls, out of Line of sight. Be it a bug or an exploit, it should be looked into.

I posted these in one of the past AC threads that got locked but the wonderful wvw community basically told me it was a l2p issue I was having..

If you place it next to the wall and use the window over the gate to hit them, they can’t target and dragon tooth you.

Best way to test out any AC is to stand out side the tower. If you can click on it from outside, then the enemy can do that too.

This thread should be renamed to “LoS bugs and fixing” :<

my 2 cents.

quit paying for upgrades and placing defensive siege. Its pointless anyway. Waist of gold.

mikoe.6574:

quit paying for upgrades and placing defensive siege. Its pointless anyway. Waist of gold.

Sounds good. Lets just turn WvW into EoTM.

Jayne.9251:

If you place it next to the wall and use the window over the gate to hit them, they can’t target and dragon tooth you.

Best way to test out any AC is to stand out side the tower. If you can click on it from outside, then the enemy can do that too.

I think you failed to understand what the problem is. Dragon’s Tooth has no line of sight check. This means that if you place and Arrow Cart within 900 range of the place the enemy can stand, they can destroy it with Dragon’s Tooth. Just because somebody can’t see it through legitimate means doesn’t mean there aren’t people that can’t see it using zoom hacks or large field of view “adjustments”.

In fact, it only takes one person with this “special sight” to be in a group of “legitimate” elementalist and they merely have to just call target on the Arrow Carts and let the Dragons Tooth do the work.

Nokaru.7831:

Jayne.9251:

If you place it next to the wall and use the window over the gate to hit them, they can’t target and dragon tooth you.

Best way to test out any AC is to stand out side the tower. If you can click on it from outside, then the enemy can do that too.

I think you failed to understand what the problem is. Dragon’s Tooth has no line of sight check. This means that if you place and Arrow Cart within 900 range of the place the enemy can stand, they can destroy it with Dragon’s Tooth. Just because somebody can’t see it through legitimate means doesn’t mean there aren’t people that can’t see it using zoom hacks or large field of view “adjustments”.

In fact, it only takes one person with this “special sight” to be in a group of “legitimate” elementalist and they merely have to just call target on the Arrow Carts and let the Dragons Tooth do the work.

Dragons tooth requires a click target to work. If you cannot click on the siege, you cannot use it. And there are plenty of spots to drop an AC inside a tower or keep to do so.

I think you failed to understand placement. Go experiment. I’ve tested and found the spots.

isylum.6425:

morrolan.9608:

Nokaru.7831:

Here is to hoping that they fix Dragons Tooth before the launch of the expansion after Heart of Thorns!

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

Dragons Tooth should be checked by Line of sight. Dragons Tooth or any other skill from players for that matter should go off on a player that is “safe” behind their walls, out of Line of sight. Be it a bug or an exploit, it should be looked into.

Its not a bug or exploit its how the ability functions as Jayne said you have to have LOS to click it. If you think the functionality should be changed fine but its not bugged.

You do not need line of sight to click on something when you can zoom out 300% extra and see over the wall. This is a pretty ridiculous statement to make; this whole thread was about arrow carts and zoom hacking. The only limitation the targeting something is you need to be within 3000 units of it; that it.

Only thing limiting you is your ability to see the targets, and something that can see more than you through FoV manipulation or zoom hacking will see more and target something they shouldn’t.

You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.

• Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)
• Then, walk out of line of sight of it.
• If you then acquire your target, regardless of line of site you will get target.

By the way, calling something “not an exploit” is really funny. This whole thread is about adjusting something, to add more limitations to it. Sure, it’s “not an exploit” to shoot arrow carts over walls; but guess what, they’re going to do something about it. Dragons Tooth is in the same boat.

Epidemic used to not be a LoS skill, then it was fixed to be a LoS skill.

What makes DT special?

Nokaru.7831:

You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.

• Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)
• Then, walk out of line of sight of it.
• If you then acquire your target, regardless of line of site you will get target.

Yes and you needed initial LOS on it, plus the range is not that long so you can’t move too far.

Nokaru.7831:

You do not need line of sight to click on something when you can zoom out 300% extra and see over the wall. This is a pretty ridiculous statement to make; this whole thread was about arrow carts and zoom hacking. The only limitation the targeting something is you need to be within 3000 units of it; that it.

I know you think you’re absolutely, undeniably right about this, but you’re wrong. Even with idiots using zoom hacks, there are still a ton of viable placements that cannot be targeted from outside, regardless of hack or just extended FOV, you just have to experiment to find them.

I know you want to stuff your fingers in your ears and say “NONONONONONO!” but please go and try. For every tower and keep there are at least 7 untouchable spots. It’s up to you to learn/find them.

Nokaru.7831:

You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.

• Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)
• Then, walk out of line of sight of it.
• If you then acquire your target, regardless of line of site you will get target.

Please re-read what you wrote and see if you can pick out where you went wrong there In your own words, too.

Edited to add: Skepticism is good. A fellow player kept telling me something was impossible when I was testing out the new placements, and it just made me work harder, and made it gratifying when it worked. He and his wife spent endless hours with me testing, I adore them both. He was my Princess Bride INCONCIEVABLE! guy.

Nokaru.7831:

You do not need line of sight to click on something when you can zoom out 300% extra and see over the wall.

Yes, you do. That is what LoS is. It is equivalent for everyone. If you can see it, so does your character for all intents and purposes.

Lest we not forget that iZerker was also just target only. Then tons of people kittened and complained about that, and they changed it to LoS. Amazing how they change those things, but never DT. Total bull.

Still no fix for this exploit, GG. How about nerfing AC damage in general if you can’t figure out how to fix it?

Spurnshadow.3678:

Lest we not forget that iZerker was also just target only. Then tons of people kittened and complained about that, and they changed it to LoS. Amazing how they change those things, but never DT. Total bull.

izerker is far to restrictive now compared to other ranged target abilities (not DT), they should loosen it up a little.

Sich.7103:

morrolan.9608:

Its not bugged, the ability doesn’t require line of sight, it just requires you to be able to target a person or object.

Yeah, and I really don’t understand why some skill don’t need LOS….
Like the line with the staf on the guardian… Swiftnes need LOS, but not the ligne….

Each skill should use LOS all the time. And the camera should be change each time you take siege (like treb). The best way to fix ac (except for cheater who need to be ban) is to lock the camera when you are on siege.

Uneven and not all the same “parameters” to all characters makes for a very lopsided fight in many cases.

Example: LOS for barrage (Ranger) doesn’t account for elevation NOR angle – how can it miss if it’s going up and over? It does… Every. Single. Time. What a waste of a skill that should work as well as Meteor Showeror any other aoe that must be angled up or down.

Jayne.9251:

I know you think you’re absolutely, undeniably right about this, but you’re wrong. Even with idiots using zoom hacks, there are still a ton of viable placements that cannot be targeted from outside, regardless of hack or just extended FOV, you just have to experiment to find them.

I knew saving this old video would I found long ago would come in handy: (Smiles!)

(Link)

But hey, apparently you think that FoV and zoom hacks are just something we need to learn to avoid and deal with!

By the way, feel free to post a video of something proving your point. (Smiley face!)

Oh yeah also, I thought it’s worth it to point out (For those in need it pointed out) that Dragons Tooth, since it has no line of sight requirement, has the same flexibility as an arrow cart; (or at least, pre-nerfed arrow carts) you just need to click on your target, which you can do if you can see what they can see!

In case you still are not following this line of thought, this is the point very simply: If you think Arrow Carts were a problem, Dragon’s Tooth is also a problem.

Nokaru.7831:

Oh yeah also, I thought it’s worth it to point out (For those in need it pointed out) that Dragons Tooth, since it has no line of sight requirement, has the same flexibility as an arrow cart; (or at least, pre-nerfed arrow carts) you just need to click on your target, which you can do if you can see what they can see!

In case you still are not following this line of thought, this is the point very simply: If you think Arrow Carts were a problem, Dragon’s Tooth is also a problem.

By your own words DT has an initial LOS requirement. If you want to argue that can be abused by zoom hacking, well sure it can be but they’re hacking, the issue then is the hacking not DT which still functions as its supposed to. As for its flexibility its range is far too short compared to ACs to be comparable. They don’t operate the same anyway with DT being a single target ability with aoe damage but AC being a ground targeted aoe.

As I’ve said all along argue that its functionality should be changed but don’t argue that its bugged.

morrolan.9608:

By your own words DT has an initial LOS requirement. If you want to argue that can be abused by zoom hacking, well sure it can be but they’re hacking, the issue then is the hacking not DT which still functions as its supposed to. As for its flexibility its range is far too short compared to ACs to be comparable. They don’t operate the same anyway with DT being a single target ability with aoe damage but AC being a ground targeted aoe.

What were my words? It doesn’t have a line of sight requirement, I don’t know what you’re talking about; it has never had a line of sight requirement. My point was just because you cannot see over the wall and target people it doesn’t mean other people can’t.

Sorry friend, but they are never going to get rid of zoom hacking. The only realistic solution is to remove any possible way they can actually use this extra field-of-view advantage. The restrictions planned for arrow carts on their line of sight hopefully addresses this.

Nokaru.7831:

morrolan.9608:

By your own words DT has an initial LOS requirement. If you want to argue that can be abused by zoom hacking, well sure it can be but they’re hacking, the issue then is the hacking not DT which still functions as its supposed to. As for its flexibility its range is far too short compared to ACs to be comparable. They don’t operate the same anyway with DT being a single target ability with aoe damage but AC being a ground targeted aoe.

What were my words? It doesn’t have a line of sight requirement, I don’t know what you’re talking about; it has never had a line of sight requirement. My point was just because you cannot see over the wall and target people it doesn’t mean other people can’t.

Your words:
“You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.
Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)”

As I said above other people might use zoom hacks, the issue is the zoom hacks not DT, and again like I said DT has a short range.

morrolan.9608:

Your words:
“You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.
Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)”

As I said above other people might use zoom hacks, the issue is the zoom hacks not DT, and again like I said DT has a short range.

You completely misunderstood the thing I was trying to demonstrate. I was trying to show that once you have a target, whether you acquire it through legitimate (which is what I was trying to demonstrate) or through illegitimate means, such as zoom hacking, the spell will still cast successfully on that target regardless of line of sight.

Also, I don’t really know what you consider “short” range, but 900 range is not short.

Nokaru.7831:

morrolan.9608:

Your words:
“You can target something without line of sight. This is a very easy thing to test.
Target something, then call target on it. (Control+T)”

As I said above other people might use zoom hacks, the issue is the zoom hacks not DT, and again like I said DT has a short range.

You completely misunderstood the thing I was trying to demonstrate. I was trying to show that once you have a target, whether you acquire it through legitimate (which is what I was trying to demonstrate) or through illegitimate means, such as zoom hacking, the spell will still cast successfully on that target regardless of line of sight.

Also, I don’t really know what you consider “short” range, but 900 range is not short.

1. Like I said if target is acquired through zoom hacking the issue is zoom hacking.
2. The range is not calculated in a straight line if there’s different heights involved. It is possible to put ACs on recessed stairs that I can’t hit with DT.

Nokaru.7831:

Jayne.9251:

I know you think you’re absolutely, undeniably right about this, but you’re wrong. Even with idiots using zoom hacks, there are still a ton of viable placements that cannot be targeted from outside, regardless of hack or just extended FOV, you just have to experiment to find them.

I knew saving this old video would I found long ago would come in handy: (Smiles!)

(Link)

But hey, apparently you think that FoV and zoom hacks are just something we need to learn to avoid and deal with!

By the way, feel free to post a video of something proving your point. (Smiley face!)

Oh yeah also, I thought it’s worth it to point out (For those in need it pointed out) that Dragons Tooth, since it has no line of sight requirement, has the same flexibility as an arrow cart; (or at least, pre-nerfed arrow carts) you just need to click on your target, which you can do if you can see what they can see!

In case you still are not following this line of thought, this is the point very simply: If you think Arrow Carts were a problem, Dragon’s Tooth is also a problem.

Lol, you are stubbornly ignoring the fact that you have to tag the siege to use DT. If you can’t see it, you can’t nuke it. Same with ACs placed outside. If you use proper placement inside, you can effectively counter without getting hit.

I was going to do a whole big post on placement but I get the feeling that would be a waste of time. People read/see what they want to, and stubbornly stick to old placements and wonder why they don’t work anymore when game changes happen.