Guild Wars 2

Nokaru.7831:

Jayne.9251:

I know you think you’re absolutely, undeniably right about this, but you’re wrong. Even with idiots using zoom hacks, there are still a ton of viable placements that cannot be targeted from outside, regardless of hack or just extended FOV, you just have to experiment to find them.

I knew saving this old video would I found long ago would come in handy: (Smiles!)

(Link)

But hey, apparently you think that FoV and zoom hacks are just something we need to learn to avoid and deal with!

By the way, feel free to post a video of something proving your point. (Smiley face!)

Oh yeah also, I thought it’s worth it to point out (For those in need it pointed out) that Dragons Tooth, since it has no line of sight requirement, has the same flexibility as an arrow cart; (or at least, pre-nerfed arrow carts) you just need to click on your target, which you can do if you can see what they can see!

In case you still are not following this line of thought, this is the point very simply: If you think Arrow Carts were a problem, Dragon’s Tooth is also a problem.

Yeah, that video is not zoom hacking. you can aim the AC over the door or through the slits. That’s why you build the treb in the corner of inner.

The LOS should be calculated when you activate your spell…. And LOS should be necessary for all spell. There is no reason that you can cast spell if you can’t see your target area…

Jayne.9251:

I think you failed to understand placement. Go experiment. I’ve tested and found the spots.

That’s nice, dear. However I don’t think it is our job to find ways to avoid being subjected to exploits, but Anet’s to plug them.

I hate the exploits as much as anyone since a big part of my game is sieging and trying to even the playing field for my server against the huge condi blobs of the day. Seeing red circles totally in the middle of the lords or to the bottom of the interior wall is just normal play now. Sitting on a cannon with a bunker guard worked 8 seconds, yes I timed it, before I was melted. Hey how about making cannon mastery and mortar mastery with a dome of some protection or something where you don’t melt.

As for the ACs. Someone tossed an AC by the rams at Ogres Watch, I don’t know why, it was really late, the tower was paper and had no siege and just a mesmer trying to hide. But I got on it just before the gate blew open and I was able to look through the top of the gate and hit all the targets in the Lords. That should not happen. Here is a screen shot of the numbers I was getting. Unbelievable, if they had people in there or siege I would have been wrecking it.

I suggested that somewhere.. Close them gaps between the gates.

briggah.7910:

I suggested that somewhere.. Close them gaps between the gates.

Yup they should . Hey the best way for casinos to catch cheats is to have ex-cheaters find them. Right? So ANET should have people that play WvW find these exploits.

Why are there gaps in the gates in the first place. Does anyone of our garages or front doors only go 3/4 of the way up?

msalakka.4653:

Jayne.9251:

I think you failed to understand placement. Go experiment. I’ve tested and found the spots.

That’s nice, dear. However I don’t think it is our job to find ways to avoid being subjected to exploits, but Anet’s to plug them.

Lol that drives me nutty.

“We aren’t going to do anything to think creatively and help ourselves, it’s THEIR job to do it for us.”

Then inevitably the rage posts over why it’s taking so long to fix.

“We are getting hit while standing inside these red circles!”

“Why not step away from them?”

“But it’s Anet’s job to STOP THE RED CIRCLES!”

P.S. For the record, I think the new camera angles are lame. I was annoyed when I came back and discovered them, too. But I guess I’m stubborn and didn’t let it beat me, and found other ways to counter.

Jayne.9251:

Lol that drives me nutty.

“We aren’t going to do anything to think creatively and help ourselves, it’s THEIR job to do it for us.”

Then inevitably the rage posts over why it’s taking so long to fix.

“We are getting hit while standing inside these red circles!”

“Why not step away from them?”

“But it’s Anet’s job to STOP THE RED CIRCLES!”

P.S. For the record, I think the new camera angles are lame. I was annoyed when I came back and discovered them, too. But I guess I’m stubborn and didn’t let it beat me, and found other ways to counter.

I never use first person view because I have motion/gaming sickness. So while I could use it when standing still, I still don’t as I just stay away from first person view. I would have to experiment with something I don’t want (and which is making me physically sick) just to counter people who are using this option- I don’t think that makes sense.

And to “just step out of red circles” good idea, but there’s so much AoE everywhere that you can’t avoid it. It has been different back in the day and it would be great if it were like that again, without us being forced to “zoom hack to catch the zoom hackers” and that is the point.

The LOS should be from the character not from what they player can se with zooming and so, cant the character se over the wall/gate then he cant shoot, only exception is skills like handgranate but then you should be safe if you stand under a roof.

Quick fix: make AC deal no damage to siege. That would remove *some* of the problems. Defenders can still swap place on the AC’s etc and shoot back.

But yes, Projectile Block/LOS limits needed, looking much forward to the rumored second part of the AC patch.

Also, it’s been 3 years, give them poor workers enough materials to build the gates all the way up. They’ve earned it.

joneirikb.7506:

Quick fix: make AC deal no damage to siege.

Oh honey, think about this

That damage goes both ways — so many rams will celebrate.

Jayne.9251:

joneirikb.7506:

Quick fix: make AC deal no damage to siege.

Oh honey, think about this

That damage goes both ways — so many rams will celebrate.

Yup I know, but this also means that you can still build cata or treb inside and shoot down the rams from inside, and those won’t be plastered by AC’s. It gives you some small room for counter play.

Or my favorite, Counter Ram from inside, with Ram mastery.

Second favorite, 5-10 guardians with staff mass spam 1 out through the gate with full might, fury and quickness.

Also, counter spam aoe’s from inside to chase the players away, the usual siege disablers, etc. Would love to recommend the Oil, but the only time I’ve ever seen that one work is against the enemies in SilverWastes when defending towers.

joneirikb.7506:

Jayne.9251:

joneirikb.7506:

Quick fix: make AC deal no damage to siege.

Oh honey, think about this

That damage goes both ways — so many rams will celebrate.

Yup I know, but this also means that you can still build cata or treb inside and shoot down the rams from inside, and those won’t be plastered by AC’s. It gives you some small room for counter play.

.

I thought they removed cats doing damage to Rams/gates defensively in 2013? Did they change it back again?

Cats do damage to gates, but not siege on the other side of gates. They also reduced AC damage to siege twice since they pumped it up a long time ago when no one asked for more damage from ACs except the cheap people who didn’t want to upgrade their ACs to superior.

Jayne.9251:

joneirikb.7506:

Jayne.9251:

joneirikb.7506:

Quick fix: make AC deal no damage to siege.

Oh honey, think about this

That damage goes both ways — so many rams will celebrate.

Yup I know, but this also means that you can still build cata or treb inside and shoot down the rams from inside, and those won’t be plastered by AC’s. It gives you some small room for counter play.

.

I thought they removed cats doing damage to Rams/gates defensively in 2013? Did they change it back again?

Sorry meant the knockback from the cata/treb.

You’re still not likely to win the fight, but at least you get the options to slow it down enough that you can either get help, or bore them so much they go take another tower instead (most likely).

Had a similair problem until i found what works for me. BIG TIP AC is an projectile. Just let that sink in abit before you place them for defense.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Yeah, that video is not zoom hacking. you can aim the AC over the door or through the slits. That’s why you build the treb in the corner of inner.

Yes, that Arrow Cart built next to the inner wall that was nowhere near the gate was able to shoot over the gap. Good job actually watching the video!

They must have done something last patch with the DT LOS. I watched several eles try and fail to nuke me from below.

It could be that I placed the siege out of reach though, too.

Anyone else noticing a difference?

maybe this thread is finally dead R.I.P

Not sure, this is from tonight:
(Since I don’t build acs in front of towers, I have no idea whether it was cheating or exploiting – but I sure know it would be great if it stopped)

Is this still on the to do list? Or was it swept under the rug? I hope it isn’t a problem that doesn’t get patched for 6 more months like the DD ele thing in PvP…

I noticed the LOS was completely fixed last night.

Usually an AC you can place at bottom of first set of steps at watergate blue keep EB used to be able to cover the entire cave .. and now getting “LOS error” messages. Completely different from last week.

Yes but still Ele and so can hit so problem is still there and all AOE hits all over the top of the wall.

@Shadow.3475, do we know if the LoS patch and fixes are all done?
One some places stil possible to extend aoe area to inner wall stairs.

Dont Think they done any fix to normal AOE attacks only to LOS on AC.

Update today:

World vs. World
Altered arrow cart line-of-sight checks to be more restrictive.

So this update has ruined ACs as defensive options, yet still allows them to be used offensively. Absolutely ridiculous and needs to be changed.

I could understand this one not being able to hit rams but it should be able to hit further out.
http://i.imgur.com/QKMpWoF.jpg

This should be allowed to hit rams but it can’t/barely could.
http://i.imgur.com/mrDjMdM.jpg

Can be AOEd easily. It can still barely reach rams.
http://i.imgur.com/I4pjBch.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PrLOZtC.jpg

Can be AOEd by just about anything…
http://i.imgur.com/SZcmdwb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OjKGgmi.jpg

Offensive AC – I can hit the back where ACs are usually placed.
http://i.imgur.com/AHcVr6o.jpg

EDIT: bay

You can barely hit rams here.
http://i.imgur.com/t1PJUod.jpg

To make it even worse, offensive ACs can be used to counter these defensive ones. The defensive ACs can’t even hit the offensive ones.

http://i.imgur.com/3yGCWn5.jpg

Well that’s not good at all.

Why are they trying to make it so hard to defend stuff?
I don’t get it.

That seems to be the exact opposite of what I was expecting them to do.

Do they ever ask WvW players or test these changes in live environments? Way to go ANet you have created the new meta, catas up against walls for which all interior siege is now useless.

lets get rid of the AC spamming looks good to me.

HOORAY!

I can think of 2 servers already that are going to be very unhappy without the LOS exploit.

I would, however, be in favor of putting a minimum range on catapults and trebs as well, and give players better LOS abilities when they are on the walls.

Not sure why AC’s are not like the rest of siege.

They should be used how they would actually be used. Hold the button down and the AoE goes further like a Catapult/Trebuchet.

Just make the AC turn fast and such. You shouldn’t need LoS for an indirect fire weapon. Just saying.

I was afraid this would happen. Defenders need non-LOS locations to place ACs to keep them from being destroyed instantly by AOE from attackers. It’s a two-part problem, at the very least. The solution in its current state is probably worse than the original problem, based on those screen shots. (I have not done much testing myself yet)

I think we have to replace line of sight by line of trajectory. But I have the feeling that this is not a trivial task.

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why AC’s are not like the rest of siege.

They should be used how they would actually be used. Hold the button down and the AoE goes further like a Catapult/Trebuchet.

Just make the AC turn fast and such. You shouldn’t need LoS for an indirect fire weapon. Just saying.

Then they’d be called a Ribauldequin

As an aside, I’m happy for any kind of siege reduction, especially ACs. It hopefully will keep the focus on fighting player vs player rather than player vs siege. I’m all for the ability to defend yourself, but being able to stack an unreachable arrow cart behind some corner because you use a zoom hack and can zoom the camera out as far as you please was just too ridiculous. Rather they err the side of siege being less powerful than more powerful.

Zachary Stiers.1879:

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

This is actually a pretty simple problem, conceptually. I can’t speak for actual implementation difficulty, but consider the following assertions:

1. An arrow cart on top of a wall (defensive AC) must be able to hit anything visible and below the arrow cart.
2. An arrow cart below a wall (offensive AC) must not be able to shoot past the nearest top edge of the nearest wall.

There is a fairly obvious solution to satisfy these conditions, assuming you have some way in your game’s code of directly calling for a line of sight check between two points:

1. Let point A be a point directly above the arrow cart, slightly higher than the height of the barriers commonly found on WvW walls relative to the arrow cart.
2. Let point B be a point directly above the target location, which is in the same horizontal plane as point A.
3. Line of sight check between point A and point B. If the check passes, fire the arrow cart and return from the function.
4. Line of sight check between point A and the target. If the check passes, fire the arrow cart and return from the function.
5. Tell the user that the arrow cart cannot be fired to the chosen location.

Using these two line of sight checks together, any arrow cart with a height advantage over a target should be able to hit the target, and any arrow cart below a target won’t be able to “see” past the appropriate barriers. Attached is a sloppy mspaint sketch illustrating the concept. While it may be an eyesore, hopefully it serves its purpose as a visual reference.

If they just fixed the camera view at a certain position (allowing rotations of course) whenever you get on an AC, it’d fix most of the problems. Instead we get half-done botched patch after botched patch.

Please take the expansion as an opportunity to rework acs to be like catas. Charge up a volley of aoe damage, release it. Require charge up time and a clear trejectory. Current ac implementation is boring and skillless.

Kodiak.3281:

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why AC’s are not like the rest of siege.

They should be used how they would actually be used. Hold the button down and the AoE goes further like a Catapult/Trebuchet.

Just make the AC turn fast and such. You shouldn’t need LoS for an indirect fire weapon. Just saying.

Then they’d be called a Ribauldequin

As an aside, I’m happy for any kind of siege reduction, especially ACs. It hopefully will keep the focus on fighting player vs player rather than player vs siege. I’m all for the ability to defend yourself, but being able to stack an unreachable arrow cart behind some corner because you use a zoom hack and can zoom the camera out as far as you please was just too ridiculous. Rather they err the side of siege being less powerful than more powerful.

But the problem now is that attackers can still place an outside AC and use it to nuke inner siege, while defenders can no longer rely on the same effect, and are, in fact, more restricted than the attackers….

Meh.

Every single patch gets worse.

It seems to be reading those little walls on the rampart as blocking the LOS instead of offering protection.

And based on the other photos posted, not the other way around — from the outside in.

Has any dev really been far as decided to use even go want to do Arrow Carts look more like?

Orochimaru.4730:

Has any dev really been far as decided to use even go want to do Arrow Carts look more like?

lol I can’t stop laughing at this horrible horrible sentence.

Orion.3812:

Zachary Stiers.1879:

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

This is actually a pretty simple problem, conceptually. I can’t speak for actual implementation difficulty, but consider the following assertions:

1. An arrow cart on top of a wall (defensive AC) must be able to hit anything visible and below the arrow cart.
2. An arrow cart below a wall (offensive AC) must not be able to shoot past the nearest top edge of the nearest wall.

Cause defending right know isn´t easy enough + the kitten no playerdmg to gates buff with hot?
Atm if you attack a defended structure in eu t1-3 you have trebs behind every door killing rams in seconds and drain all your uplly without any real counterplay so last way is trashdmg (not possible anymore in hot with the guild buff) while the defenders build ton´s of ac´s on position you cannot reach with aoe dmg. you cannot build any one siege in ac range of the walls cause defender ac´s insta kill it. so you must go on range and cata/treb it.

If you start cata/treb the most poitions are covered by deffender trebs + if not they just yolopush/die on your siege and destroy long before a wall is nearly open. things like siege disabler from mesmer/thief in stealth on your cata/treb had no real counterplay.

if you open a gate/wall after a while all you see are red circles of 4-12 ac´s shooting all on this choke/all defender cater freecating from high ground and you often have to use all defend cd´s dodges to get in there + than you have the enemy blob in there same your number on highground + siege dmg + all cd´s.

it´s way to easy to defend a garry without fighting the enemy at all. And that´s no fun at all for many many ppl.

The Defenders had enough advantages with the time to come to defend while the enemy must open the structure and than for the fight some highground /choke/a bit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! siege dmg advantages but not so op like now.
if the attacker win the fight againt defender even with this disadvantages it´ok that he flip the structure.

Bunkering and avoid fighting in wvw is way to easy and to rewarding and no fun for many many ppl.

With the new map with so many broken defending siege spots and long ways for attacking ppl + the op guildclaimbuffs flipping a structure when the defenders are at least 50 % of the attackers will become impossible. So all ppl bunkering in their objects until one side losing numbers in offhours and flipping object with equal number will be impossible. All ppl looking for some fights get bored and play pvp /guildhall gvg instead and wvw totally become a kitten boring ppt/siegewars where fight ability´s doesn´t count anything.
gg but this gamemode i doesn´t want to play

Zachary Stiers.1879:

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

Make the AoE area larger (like triple the size) when shooting from up on top of the wall and out, because when up on the wall you should be able to see a larger area. Shrink the AoE area (by half) when shooting up onto walls or inside a tower/garrison from the outside because from the ground, the view point should either be small or non-existent. When AC’s are in the open field, keep the AoE circle as it is now.

This way when aiming from on top of the walls out by the gate, the larger area should be able to hit anything in front of the gate.

HitmanHaydon.1053:

Why are they trying to make it so hard to defend stuff?
I don’t get it.

Presumably because defense will get more options with HOT, and right now ACs are absurdly strong defensively. As an opponent of YB and TC I like the change.

HitmanHaydon.1053:

Why are they trying to make it so hard to defend stuff?
I don’t get it.

Assuming equal numbers its not hard to defend, siege a tower up properly, its impossible to take all other things being equal.

Tricare.2946:

Orochimaru.4730:

Has any dev really been far as decided to use even go want to do Arrow Carts look more like?

lol I can’t stop laughing at this horrible horrible sentence.

I’m in tears…