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Posted by: briggah.7910

briggah.7910

Has any dev really been far as decided to use even go want to do Arrow Carts look more like?

+1

Has any dev really been far as decided to use even go want to do Arrow Carts look more like?

lol I can’t stop laughing at this horrible horrible sentence.

I’m in tears…

What is so funny? Its a legit question. Come on devs! Answer the question! I must know before I go to sleep.

:P

Player Vs Everyone
youtube channel - twitch channel

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Posted by: kefro.9312

kefro.9312

Has any dev really been far as decided to use even go want to do Arrow Carts look more like?

lol I can’t stop laughing at this horrible horrible sentence.

I’m in tears…

LOLOLOL

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Posted by: Blix.8021

Blix.8021

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Posted by: slingblade.1437

slingblade.1437

Please REVERSE the latest changes. I thought the changes to LOS were supposed to make things better for defenders, but instead of a sometimes problem, now we have a new, all-the-time problem.

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Posted by: kefro.9312

kefro.9312

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Posted by: Marseee.2938

Marseee.2938

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

If you need any testers I would be willing to help and test the normal locations of offensive and defensive ACs. This patch proves you need WvW players to test these locations.

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Posted by: Dancing Face.4695

Dancing Face.4695

If we keep going this way players will stop asking anything to anet, each time they handle something they screw it up.

Being on topic. Remove AC, is better for everyone, it’s a bad behaviour using ac especially with this rate of fire or at least lock the location at some places.

While you there remove golems and let’s play GW2 not siege wars. Do you Want more time for defending structure? Increase Doors and Walls health.

Gandara

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Posted by: Sich.7103

Sich.7103

Remove ac and the ability to defend and I will leave GW2…. as lot of people I think…
Defending is the only “RTS” aspect of the game…. Including defending supply line.

If it’s only to play some FPS style game then I have plenty of other game with less bug and lags…

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Posted by: Shadow.3475

Shadow.3475

Reading what Zachary Stiers wrote it sounds like they try to fix it as it should be but failed this time, so i still have hope, other fix would be so nothing Treb, Cat normal attacks from players don’t damage through wall, gate, roof, so a treb behind a gate need to lob ko over the gate to damage (drain) enemy’s and to remove rams you need to place Treb so it can shoot on the side were the enemy is. In lord room players can’t just AOE on roof to remove AC on top off roof and so on.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

Please REVERSE the latest changes. I thought the changes to LOS were supposed to make things better for defenders, but instead of a sometimes problem, now we have a new, all-the-time problem.

Why did defenders need things to be better?

What defenders need is more rewards for defending.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

Please REVERSE the latest changes. I thought the changes to LOS were supposed to make things better for defenders, but instead of a sometimes problem, now we have a new, all-the-time problem.

Why did defenders need things to be better?

What defenders need is more rewards for defending.

Then go post that in a thread for it. This thread is about ACs.

And yes, they needed to get better. There were issues with ACs being too strong for offensive use.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

Then go post that in a thread for it. This thread is about ACs.

And yes, they needed to get better. There were issues with ACs being too strong for offensive use.

Tell it to the guy I was responding to. As for strength they are too strong whether used for offense or defense.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Delta.2093

Delta.2093

The AC is still very bad currently because backline can’t stand in AC fire and there’s no way to avoid it, no way to fight under AC fire — it’s the end of PvP (unless siege wars are considered PvP too, a different kind anyway). It’s very unfair, because shooting with an AC requires no knowledge, and still wipes out even the most skilled players, thus encourages unskilled play. IF the AC was meant as a way to end fights, then should be fixed weapon (like the cannon for example), well thought out why and where, and tested of course. Allowing it to be placed anywhere, it’s just a huge failure. Was tolerable in the first months, because the damage was low, but the game needed more ingenious solutions – the opposite to the increase in siege damage that followed.

Defending can be helped by adjusting wall & gate HP (if it’s about giving more time), limiting how many siege is allowed to hit it (so having 20 golems or 15 rams wouldn’t do go through faster than 5 golems or 5 rams for example), creating better, fixed to objective defensive solutions (protected cannons, oils, new items, placed in useful positions), giving +20% (or higher) health and damage to defenders inside the Lord room circle + debuffs to attackers if the group size ratio between attacker/defender is higher than 2x times, adding more defensive tools inside the walls (deadly traps, static buff/debuff circles), … and so on. Then test these and adjust.

Delta | Spell (M) | Bold (W) | Conde (N) | Sky (El) | Flames (G) | Heart (T)
[FUG/SG/TDT] on the Jade Quarry

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Posted by: NaotsuguLH.8915

NaotsuguLH.8915

I have a suggestion. Either:
a) Arrow carts do no damage to seige
b) Remove Arrow Carts
c) Hide everything that’s behind a wall

I’m more in favour of option a

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Posted by: slingblade.1437

slingblade.1437

Please REVERSE the latest changes. I thought the changes to LOS were supposed to make things better for defenders, but instead of a sometimes problem, now we have a new, all-the-time problem.

Why did defenders need things to be better?

What defenders need is more rewards for defending.

The issue they were supposedly trying to address with the new LOS rules was that an attacker could place an AC on the ground outside a wall and clear all siege on the other side of the wall, which was terrible for defenders. That’s what needed to “get better.” You could spend a lot of time and effort perfectly sieging up a keep and have it ruined by an AC outside the wall, built in 10 seconds. This happened_sometimes_. Now, with the new LOS rules, it seems it’s most often impossible to build defensive ACs on walls that aren’t within easy reach of attackers’ AOE.

This is a kick to the crotch of defenders. It’s baffling how Anet could not test for nor foresee these problems. There are players on most every server who could have quickly discovered and explained why the changes would break defensive ACs, had Anet bothered to consult the people who actually build and use them.

(edited by slingblade.1437)

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

The issue they were supposedly trying to address with the new LOS rules was that an attacker could place an AC on the ground outside a wall and clear all siege on the other side of the wall, which was terrible for defenders.

But before this change defenders could build ACs to counter that.

And anyway as suggested above the answer is ACs should not be able to damage siege not LOS changes. ACs are meant to be anti personnel siege.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

The issue they were supposedly trying to address with the new LOS rules was that an attacker could place an AC on the ground outside a wall and clear all siege on the other side of the wall, which was terrible for defenders.

But before this change defenders could build ACs to counter that.

And anyway as suggested above the answer is ACs should not be able to damage siege not LOS changes. ACs are meant to be anti personnel siege.

This would only benefit the ktrain.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

Just make it so you can’t build an ac outside an objective with walls and your server has to control the structure to build one inside the structure.

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Just make it so you can’t build an ac outside an objective with walls and your server has to control the structure to build one inside the structure.

Then good luck getting trebs in briar or SM out – there’s currently no counter to a third floor treb in SM (other than an AC).

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

Balli in ruins for Briar.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Balli in ruins for Briar.

Yeah, I know – you can also put a balli in front of the tower – but it was about ACs and that there’s no other counter for a upper floor treb in SM.
It’s easier to build an AC at briar though as they have to get out for it – a balli from the ruins doesn’t work if they’ve already got one up themselves.

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Posted by: Jizmak.1489

Jizmak.1489

Just make it so you can’t build an ac outside an objective with walls and your server has to control the structure to build one inside the structure.

Then good luck getting trebs in briar or SM out – there’s currently no counter to a third floor treb in SM (other than an AC).

Not that I agree with abolishing AC’s outside walls. Actually could give 2 craps either way… but this statement is untrue.

Trebs on 3rd floor SM can be countered via another treb, or even a bally with proper position. Just a FYI.

Battle Commander – [JINX]

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Posted by: Holland.9351

Holland.9351

How about reducing the max range of the AC depending on how many obstacles are in the way?

This way a defensive AC can still cover a door and an offensive AC can still clear siege on the wall near it, but not into the courtyard or even all the way to an inner wall.

The idea is that with obstacles in the way the AC would have to aim more upwards to make a high vertical arc and therefore have less horizontal range.

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Not that I agree with abolishing AC’s outside walls. Actually could give 2 craps either way… but this statement is untrue.

Trebs on 3rd floor SM can be countered via another treb, or even a bally with proper position. Just a FYI.

Balli if you’re already in SM, treb, no – you can’t build a counter treb. Nothing is higher than 3d floor SM – you can’t even reach a treb with a counter treb from the tower of power.

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Posted by: Synosius.9876

Synosius.9876

careful what you wish for, you just might get it!

sry to gloat a little.

simple solution might be to calculate the los check 3-4 character lengths above the AC. high enough to get a line over the edge below but low enough to not go over walls.

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Posted by: Jizmak.1489

Jizmak.1489

Not that I agree with abolishing AC’s outside walls. Actually could give 2 craps either way… but this statement is untrue.

Trebs on 3rd floor SM can be countered via another treb, or even a bally with proper position. Just a FYI.

Balli if you’re already in SM, treb, no – you can’t build a counter treb. Nothing is higher than 3d floor SM – you can’t even reach a treb with a counter treb from the tower of power.

Funny… i been doing it from the ground outside of SM for over 2 years. But w/e. Just sharing info, no biggie to me.

Battle Commander – [JINX]

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Just get rid of this poorly thought out LOS change completely

…and have it so that whenever you get on an AC, your camera is fixed at a certain height with only the ability to rotate. How high? That can be tweaked.

This would put us roughly back in the state before the camera position changes (with the bonus of getting rid of "zoomhacking).

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Funny… i been doing it from the ground outside of SM for over 2 years. But w/e. Just sharing info, no biggie to me.

If you build outside trebs then you can take out 3d floor trebs direction QL, not sure if you can also get klov and durios side out with that – but I’m really sure that you can’t get either of them out with an outside balli. You might be able to get a 3d floor treb out which is facing red keep with a balli, or even treb build on the hill between red keep and SM – but no one ever builds a treb there, I think.
AC outside SM to get the treb facing QL out was the easiest and fastest way – you need a lot of people to get a treb up.

Edit: I might be wrong, yes – it’s really hard to experiment with siege around SM

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

You can use a balli hon for SM upper trebs. Depends on where they place them (if too far back towards inner then no). Basically anything you can click on can be balli-d.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Alright, one day gunnars will be against piken – I’ll send you some trebs then

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

Sounds like a plan!

I have some of your server-mates to annoy with my duelling anyhow :p I’m practising my /bows.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

(edited by Jayne.9251)

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

I’m trying to encourage our blob leaders to roll over the PvPers

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: Xeno.4610

Xeno.4610

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

I really like this change Always considered WvW as large scale player vs. player areana, not siege wars simulator. You want to defend, then fight like a fighter instead of hiding behind walls and pressing 1 for devastating damage…

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Posted by: Black Frog.9274

Black Frog.9274

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

I really like this change Always considered WvW as large scale player vs. player areana, not siege wars simulator. You want to defend, then fight like a fighter instead of hiding behind walls and pressing 1 for devastating damage…

Then why have walls at all? Or objectives for that matter?

I Like to Run Randomly Around the Map

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Posted by: One Prarie Outpost.4860

One Prarie Outpost.4860

This is a complex problem. The intention was to make it harder to fire from the ground onto and over walls while still being able to fire from walls downward, but trying to get such behavior is not simple. I do agree that the cases displayed in the screenshots are not great though.

Should be easy – If you can’t – an an Ele or Ranger, pull back on your camera and hit the ground on the other side of a keep/tower wall with Barrage or Meteor Shower, then you should use the same code logic for the AC.
Seems pretty straight forward (sorry for the pun).

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Posted by: Pink Ninja Man.4375

Pink Ninja Man.4375

Should be easy – If you can’t – an an Ele or Ranger, pull back on your camera and hit the ground on the other side of a keep/tower wall with Barrage or Meteor Shower, then you should use the same code logic for the AC.
Seems pretty straight forward (sorry for the pun).

Just think about defending… Where do you have to stand to hit anywhere outside the tower? You think an arrow-cart will last on the front edge of a wall long? Now if ArenaNet tweaked how AoE LoS worked for players so that defenders can AoE below the walls better, this would be an easy and good solution in my opinion.

Twitch – PinkNinjaMan [/\///\/_//\]
Main Class – Ranger [Bezerker/Trapper Hybrid]
Main Mode – WvW [Gate of Madness]

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Posted by: slingblade.1437

slingblade.1437

You want to defend, then fight like a fighter instead of hiding behind walls and pressing 1 for devastating damage…

When there are only 5-10 people on your BL and a 30-man enemy zerg comes to your map and starts attacking your T3 stuff, can we assume you and the 5-10 rush into the field to fight and defeat the zerg of 30?

People who hide behind walls and siege when they have roughly equal numbers to the attackers, yeah, they’re not great fighters and are maybe even cowards, but walls and siege are essential for those many times when the defenders are vastly outnumbered. There’s no point in trying to defend anything if you don’t have a force multiplier like a well-placed AC when you’re greatly outnumbered. Defensive siege serves to level the playing field in such times. The attackers still have the advantage. They usually just lack the patience/knowledge/foresight to utilize their advantage.

(edited by slingblade.1437)

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

People who hide behind walls and siege when they have roughly equal numbers to the attackers, yeah, they’re not great fighters and are maybe even cowards, but walls and siege are essential for those many times when the defenders are vastly outnumbered. There’s no point in trying to defend anything if you don’t have a force multiplier like a well-placed AC when you’re greatly outnumbered. Defensive siege serves to level the playing field in such times. The attackers still have the advantage. They usually just lack the patience/knowledge/foresight to utilize their advantage.

In that situation siege should balanced around being used to buy time to allow a larger force to get there, not successfully defend because then when the conflict is scaled up to equal numbers siege becomes too powerful.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

People who hide behind walls and siege when they have roughly equal numbers to the attackers, yeah, they’re not great fighters and are maybe even cowards, but walls and siege are essential for those many times when the defenders are vastly outnumbered. There’s no point in trying to defend anything if you don’t have a force multiplier like a well-placed AC when you’re greatly outnumbered. Defensive siege serves to level the playing field in such times. The attackers still have the advantage. They usually just lack the patience/knowledge/foresight to utilize their advantage.

In that situation siege should balanced around being used to buy time to allow a larger force to get there, not successfully defend because then when the conflict is scaled up to equal numbers siege becomes too powerful.

The state of population/coverage means that for almost every matchup, there’s maybe 4 hours a day when there’s even close to equal numbers. So basically you’re advocating K-train for the other 20 hours a day.

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Posted by: Engelsstaub.4356

Engelsstaub.4356

Not long ago it was very possible for 15 people to defend a T3, fully sieged keep against a huge blob. Arrow carts were the main part of such defence.

But now ACs are virtually useless. Now you can’t defend anything if you are outnumbered because ACs can’t reach rams.

Thanks then for making karma train blobbing even more easy peasy effortless.

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Posted by: ScionKai.4907

ScionKai.4907

Not long ago it was very possible for 15 people to defend a T3, fully sieged keep against a huge blob. Arrow carts were the main part of such defence.

But now ACs are virtually useless. Now you can’t defend anything if you are outnumbered because ACs can’t reach rams.

Thanks then for making karma train blobbing even more easy peasy effortless.

It was also possible for a large zerg to kill all defensive siege with 1 offensive AC. Let’s not kid ourselves and pretend ACs were perfect before. Higher walls seems to be a fix for this in HoT. I hope if /when (hopefully when!) they bring back alpine borderlands, they make all the walls much higher and thicker.

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Posted by: Engelsstaub.4356

Engelsstaub.4356

Before, they could not have built an offensive AC because of being under fire of several superiors.

Now ACs can’t reach many spots including places where rams are placed to destroy doors. Not all doors, but at the ones at EB keeps.

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Posted by: funghetto.1584

funghetto.1584

line of sight in general -

acs got fixed? nice

fix player line of sight

elementalist – necromancer – rangers lb – they are movable acs

“There’s no such thing as balance, fairness or honor.”
a Fissure Of Woe player that has no home.

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Posted by: Xeno.4610

Xeno.4610

Not long ago it was very possible for 15 people to defend a T3, fully sieged keep against a huge blob. Arrow carts were the main part of such defence.

But now ACs are virtually useless. Now you can’t defend anything if you are outnumbered because ACs can’t reach rams.

Thanks then for making karma train blobbing even more easy peasy effortless.

If you believe, that a huge blob shall not be able to take a fully upgraded keep defended by few people, my questions are:

1. In what circumstances do you think an enemy server shall be able to flip a fully upgraded keep?
2. Maybe do you believe that upgraded keeps shall not be possilble to take? Just upgrade on match reset then sit in this keep a week till another reset, and the enemy shall not even bother?
3. Don’t you think, that increasing keeps defence just promotes train blobbing instead of discouraging it?

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

15 vs a big blob should be able to effectively delay, not stop, a big force. Enough time to call for help, if available.

I’ll wager smaller groups, on opposite sides of the big blob will be more effective in the new maps, but I guess we shall see.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Sorry, I had to “Necro” this thread because I’m very tired of this.
We complained about this issue because defending was made really hard with ACs placed right next to the tower and destroying everything within = no defense. Turns out the “fix” left us again with no defense.
No offense, but please consider removing first person view from wvw – I don’t have a clue how many people will object to this but I guess those who want to defend applaud it.
But it’s good to know that you now can destroy catas at NE tower of the borderlands. You can’t get the rams and PvG crowd down though, sorry.

Attachments:

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Posted by: Serious.7083

Serious.7083

I have a suggestion. Either:
a) Arrow carts do no damage to seige
b) Remove Arrow Carts
c) Hide everything that’s behind a wall

I’m more in favour of option a

Half of the value of an arrowcart is that it can destroy siege. Effectively an arrowcart cannot do much damage to a tightly packed group because finishing water fields can heal far more damage than they should.
Removing them won’t cure anything.
Hiding everything behind the wall would be the preferred option with a line of sight limit.
Another option is put a clear area outside walls where siege, except for rams, cannot be placed.

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

Sorry, I had to “Necro” this thread because I’m very tired of this.
We complained about this issue because defending was made really hard with ACs placed right next to the tower and destroying everything within = no defense. Turns out the “fix” left us again with no defense.
No offense, but please consider removing first person view from wvw – I don’t have a clue how many people will object to this but I guess those who want to defend applaud it.
But it’s good to know that you now can destroy catas at NE tower of the borderlands. You can’t get the rams and PvG crowd down though, sorry.

Isn’t that the NW tower in your pix?

I have a day off tomorrow, I’ll do some testing and see if I can’t find a fix.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

(edited by Jayne.9251)

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Isn’t that the NW tower in your pix?

I have a day off tomorrow, I’ll do some testing and see if I can’t find a fix.

Yeah it is NW sorry.
That would be great but question is when the next patch will hit and what will change then.
As you can see I also built an AC behind the one I was on and even that didn’t reach the gate.

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

Jana, left you a pm (my inbox is full tho, so sorry you can’t reply, lol).

Hope that helps a bit, will try out more later today.

L’enfer, c’est les autres