After a jaunt out with my thief last night it occurred to me that there is an easy fix (more of an adjustment) to the thief perma-stealth issue in WvW. That is to simply switch around two skills on the weapon bar. That would be to swap Heartseeker and Death Blossom.
This simple change would effectively eliminate the single biggest issue with thieves since D/P would no longer have direct access to Heartseeker. They could Heartseeker if they ran D/P and D/D but they would be stuck in D/D after going stealth for 10 seconds making it difficult to spam Blinding Powder/Heartseeker. For players seeking this style of play, it would also lock them into a more restrictive weapon set.
It would not eliminate this style of play but it would open up counter play more which is what many players really want (including many thieves).
So you are going to totally ignore the fact that the most annoying perma-stealth thieves are already running d/d and d/p so that wouldn’t change anything?
Besides that the problem with permastealth thieves as everyone calls it is not that they go in stealth for 20 hours and do nothing but that they jump in and out of stealth constantly breaking target. If a thief permastealths he isn’t doing ANYTHING ELSE how hard can that be for people to understand after over a year?
So you are going to totally ignore the fact that the most annoying perma-stealth thieves are already running d/d and d/p so that wouldn’t change anything?
They can only jump in out of stealth because Heartseeker is on the same weapon set skills as Black Powder. If they want to stealth with this change they would have to drop Black Powder, weapon swap, Heartseeker then be on cooldown for 10s before they could do that combo again. It isn’t a huge change but it effectively eliminates perma-stealth since players could no longer sit in D/P for weapon stealth. They also couldn’t chain weapon switches because they would go on swap cooldown when they went back to D/P. The fastest a person could do this combo without taking weapon swap reductions is every 20s or so.
D/P currently is too flexible with a built in stealth, teleport, daze and backstab. Almost all the thieves I know that go D/P run sword or shorbow since both give a lot more utility. Why would someone pick up D/D when they are D/P aside from the slightly cheaper CnD which is more risky to pull off?
(edited by Straegen.2938)
Here are 2 options
Remove leap finisher from heartseeker. Problem fixed.
Reduce movement speed when stealthed by 30-50% (would need testing).
Here are 2 options
Remove leap finisher from heartseeker. Problem fixed.Reduce movement speed when stealthed by 30-50% (would need testing).
Removing the leap finisher would fix this specific problem but it does penalize D/D which is fairly well balanced right now. Still think swapping the two weapon skills makes more sense. It is a minor adjustment that is likely easy to develop and doesn’t mess with any other existing builds.
Slowing stealthers wouldn’t change much since D/P and S both have blinks.
Why not split stealth in 2 types offensive stealth and defensive stealth. Offensive stealth would not be stackable and used for backstab ect. And then defensive stealth which is known as the stealth we have now and all merits from traits will only apply to this kind. Attacks from defensive stealth will do reduced dmg and 2 sec longer revealed. Of course the balance between having access to offensive and defensive stealth has to be balanced.
while we at it can we also remove invul, blocks, aegis etc.? just to make it fair..tnks
while we at it can we also remove invul, blocks, aegis etc.? just to make it fair..tnks
LOL everytime i see thief thread this guy has to show up to protect it.
Thief in spvp dont need perm steath to survive. i dont see why in wvw they cant do.
ofc unless they are not as skill as …
while we at it can we also remove invul, blocks, aegis etc.? just to make it fair..tnks
LOL everytime i see thief thread this guy has to show up to protect it.
Thief in spvp dont need perm steath to survive. i dont see why in wvw they cant do.
ofc unless they are not as skill as …
i don’t defend perma stealth, i am all up to nerf that (i pvp mostly actually)
the problem is, the suggestions ppl make would completely ruin the class/entire weapon sets in pvp and pve as well
as a side note, last perma stealth thief i ran into ended up in stealth trap…you can paint the rest :P
The funny thing is that Anet thought permastealth would be dealt with in the Dec 10 balance update.
the problem is, the suggestions ppl make would completely ruin the class/entire weapon sets in pvp and pve as well
How does my suggestion ruin the entire class or weaponset? D/P currently has a lot of utility AND the ability to stay stealthed almost an entire fight. My change essentially swaps one skill around on one weapon set. It doesn’t even remove the ability to use the combo just not spam it.
perma stealth was already nerfed as Lord Kuru said
Here are 2 options
Remove leap finisher from heartseeker. Problem fixed.
you mean… d/p set fixed (sort of not really…) d/d set broken? :>
Reduce movement speed when stealthed by 30-50% (would need testing).
i’m sorry but… what? how would a thief catch up to someone let alone get behind them for a backstab? it would sorta make sense if stealth lasted like 30 seconds… you could slowly get into range, guess where they are going, and land your backstab… but in the 4 seconds that we have now? if it was 50% movement speed… counterplay to backstab just became “hold s”… really?
Perma stealth was already “fixed” on Dec 10. Its not possible with the heart seeker smoke field combo anymore
while we at it can we also remove invul, blocks, aegis etc.? just to make it fair..tnks
LOL everytime i see thief thread this guy has to show up to protect it.
Thief in spvp dont need perm steath to survive. i dont see why in wvw they cant do.
ofc unless they are not as skill as …i don’t defend perma stealth, i am all up to nerf that (i pvp mostly actually)
the problem is, the suggestions ppl make would completely ruin the class/entire weapon sets in pvp and pve as well
as a side note, last perma stealth thief i ran into ended up in stealth trap…you can paint the rest :P
To add to that…
Every suggestion to nerf/change stealth, has been ONLY about stealth… It’s like stealth is on it’s own little planet, and if they change it, it won’t have any other impact other then their intended change on the thief…
:| It’s like… well let me cut off your hand because I want to stop you from typing this B.S. … Well if that was to happen, not only would you stop typing, but a lot of your other aspects of life will change… (how you eat, how you open doors, how you dry yourself after a shower, how you drink…. But hey, I just proposed that so you could stop typing)
… but that they jump in and out of stealth constantly breaking target….
Which isn’t “permastealth”… :/ I guess “permastealth” is catchy and they attribute it to what you’re saying… Kind of ticks me off since it shows they don’t really understand what permanent means and what the thief is doing… Rather it shows that they’re annoyed, frustrated, and irritated enough to QQ (not you Dark, just people really DO miss that)
(edited by Zero Day.2594)
The need to have something, to make it more like the gw1 assassin attack speed or attack chains could be reused. Although I do not think this is possible in the current game. But I dont know how you can even defend invisibility in this game. It’s insane.
After a jaunt out with my thief last night it occurred to me that there is an easy fix (more of an adjustment) to the thief perma-stealth issue in WvW. That is to simply switch around two skills on the weapon bar. That would be to swap Heartseeker and Death Blossom.
This simple change would effectively eliminate the single biggest issue with thieves since D/P would no longer have direct access to Heartseeker. They could Heartseeker if they ran D/P and D/D but they would be stuck in D/D after going stealth for 10 seconds making it difficult to spam Blinding Powder/Heartseeker. For players seeking this style of play, it would also lock them into a more restrictive weapon set.
It would not eliminate this style of play but it would open up counter play more which is what many players really want (including many thieves).
This is actually a brilliant idea, without breaking the weapons or the class. It will be balancing (to some degree) the brokenly skewed risk vs reward factor of the current d/p set, but still allow its use. BUT then all dagger thieves will be stuck with a useless number 2 skill, frankly death blossom needs to be deleted and replaced with something else.
the problem is, the suggestions ppl make would completely ruin the class/entire weapon sets in pvp and pve as well
How does my suggestion ruin the entire class or weaponset? D/P currently has a lot of utility AND the ability to stay stealthed almost an entire fight. My change essentially swaps one skill around on one weapon set. It doesn’t even remove the ability to use the combo just not spam it.
d/p main dmg comes from bs… please tell me how d/p suppose to do dmg after your “change” … or stay alive for that matter
ooohh ya rrright, run d/d ….what about pvp? did you ever wonder why ppl bring thieves in pvp? sb is kind of mandatory
your suggestion will kill d/p for any kind of competitive pvp, it is already not as widely played as mindless 33333333 sword MH…so ya let’s kill another weapon set and force everyone into sword MH just for your own convinience since you are too lazy to try to counter so called “perma” stealth…..bad idea
(edited by Cynz.9437)
d/p main dmg comes from bs… please tell me how d/p suppose to do dmg after your “change” … or stay alive for that matter
ooohh ya rrright, run d/d ….what about pvp? did you ever wonder why ppl bring thieves in pvp? sb is kind of mandatory
your suggestion will kill d/p for any kind of competitive pvp, it is already not as widely played as mindless 33333333 sword MH…so ya let’s kill another weapon set and force everyone into sword MH just for your own convinience since you are too lazy to try to counter so called “perma” stealth…..bad idea
This is WvW discussion not pvp, calm down.
…
This is WvW discussion not pvp, calm down.
Funny you mentioned that…
The skill level, or the ability to PvP (as player versus player combat in general) of players in sPvP and WvW are on two different worlds… Yet both are PvP…
Sometimes I wonder if people playing WvW ever tried to sPvP…
d/p main dmg comes from bs… please tell me how d/p suppose to do dmg after your “change” … or stay alive for that matter
ooohh ya rrright, run d/d ….what about pvp? did you ever wonder why ppl bring thieves in pvp? sb is kind of mandatory
your suggestion will kill d/p for any kind of competitive pvp, it is already not as widely played as mindless 33333333 sword MH…so ya let’s kill another weapon set and force everyone into sword MH just for your own convinience since you are too lazy to try to counter so called “perma” stealth…..bad idea
This is WvW discussion not pvp, calm down.
yeah except those changes would have huge impact on pvp….and not just wvw
…
This is WvW discussion not pvp, calm down.
Funny you mentioned that…
The skill level, or the ability to PvP (as player versus player combat in general) of players in sPvP and WvW are on two different worlds… Yet both are PvP…
Sometimes I wonder if people playing WvW ever tried to sPvP…
they do… and then ragequit because spamming 1 doesn’t actually work in tournaments
“The simple fixes to perma-stealth are:
1. Stealth traps
2. L2P
Now if you will excuse me, please die to my 3x heart seeker"
Perma stealth…perma? Its Not perma! If you really want to get rid of easymode thieves aka d/p “ineednotargettostealth” remove dat infusion of shadows trait. Dagger offhand doesnt need it, only d/p. Just to make it clear..i Do Not want d/p thieves to be nerfed. Just wanted to share this idea to you “perma perma Evrything dudes”.
Perma stealth…perma? Its Not perma! If you really want to get rid of easymode thieves aka d/p “ineednotargettostealth” remove dat infusion of shadows trait. Dagger offhand doesnt need it, only d/p. Just to make it clear..i Do Not want d/p thieves to be nerfed. Just wanted to share this idea to you “perma perma Evrything dudes”.
You can’t fix the “perma”… It’s “perma”
:| “Perma”-QQ-ers are perma… can’t fix, sorry.
Thieves are now officially stuck with perma-stealth since it’s perma :| aint nothing gonna change that…
…
This is WvW discussion not pvp, calm down.
Funny you mentioned that…
The skill level, or the ability to PvP (as player versus player combat in general) of players in sPvP and WvW are on two different worlds… Yet both are PvP…
Sometimes I wonder if people playing WvW ever tried to sPvP…
Lol so much this. I was fairly decent at pvp, but then I took a break from WvW and for like a month all i did was constant duel servers and tpvp. After that i came back to WvW and feel like ive put on some god mode hack lol. I’ve died like 10 times in the past 2 months, 6 of which i got zerged down. (Roaming 4+ hours a day)
…
This is WvW discussion not pvp, calm down.
Funny you mentioned that…
The skill level, or the ability to PvP (as player versus player combat in general) of players in sPvP and WvW are on two different worlds… Yet both are PvP…
Sometimes I wonder if people playing WvW ever tried to sPvP…Lol so much this. I was fairly decent at pvp, but then I took a break from WvW and for like a month all i did was constant duel servers and tpvp. After that i came back to WvW and feel like ive put on some god mode hack lol. I’ve died like 10 times in the past 2 months, 6 of which i got zerged down. (Roaming 4+ hours a day)
you run a cheese bunker build. Enough said.
anyway tpvp is full of condi spam and cc spam which I hate, while I hate the bunker condi perp builds in WvW, it’s not nearly as bad as the point aoe spam.
“The simple fixes to perma-stealth are:
1. Stealth traps
2. L2PNow if you will excuse me, please die to my 3x heart seeker"
Takes to long to deploy target may be dead before that, also as a thief i sometime carry a supply trap.
Imo its not a l2p issue, it is more deep than that it is learn how the game really works instead of learned the class player is playing, and adapt that uber build that all play, thief can kill several targets as warrios can tank several zerkers and still regen or go away w/o any problem, everything working as intended.
(edited by Aeolus.3615)
d/p main dmg comes from bs… please tell me how d/p suppose to do dmg after your “change” … or stay alive for that matter
The current problem as I see it is D/P opens with a chain attack and then one of a few things happen. First the chain will kill its target. Second the chain will gravely wound it. Third the chain will have limited effect due to a variety of conditions. This is where D/P has a MASSIVE advantage over D/D. No matter the outcome, they can immediately stealth and retry. They can do this infinitely until target is dead. My change means there is a cooldown of sorts before they can pop that second combo allowing players a chance to pressure the thief. Anyone who has tried both D/D and D/P knows which is harder to pull off. D/P has all the D/D advantages with virtually none of its disadvantages. It also has two built in blinds, a blink, a daze, a spamable leap and BS. D/D has two of those.
ooohh ya rrright, run d/d ….what about pvp? did you ever wonder why ppl bring thieves in pvp? sb is kind of mandatory
I don’t know squat about sPvP so I won’t comment.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
…
ooohh ya rrright, run d/d ….what about pvp? did you ever wonder why ppl bring thieves in pvp? sb is kind of mandatory
I don’t know squat about sPvP so I won’t comment.
;) you should try it for a while…
;) you should try it for a while…
I have tried it at release but didn’t like it. Not fluid enough for my play style and I don’t like that I cannot bring the gear I spent a lot of effort acquiring with me. I understand why it is like it is just not my thing.
the problem is, the suggestions ppl make would completely ruin the class/entire weapon sets in pvp and pve as well
How does my suggestion ruin the entire class or weaponset? D/P currently has a lot of utility AND the ability to stay stealthed almost an entire fight. My change essentially swaps one skill around on one weapon set. It doesn’t even remove the ability to use the combo just not spam it.
d/p main dmg comes from bs… please tell me how d/p suppose to do dmg after your “change” … or stay alive for that matter
You dont find it weird that your main source of damage is a skill that people cannot see, even the name of backstab says enough.
The attack chain(s) that d/d thiefs use 5 -1 is something they can implement as a non stealth skill. Like the full damage attack chains of the gw1 assassin.
…
This is WvW discussion not pvp, calm down.
Funny you mentioned that…
The skill level, or the ability to PvP (as player versus player combat in general) of players in sPvP and WvW are on two different worlds… Yet both are PvP…
Sometimes I wonder if people playing WvW ever tried to sPvP…Lol so much this. I was fairly decent at pvp, but then I took a break from WvW and for like a month all i did was constant duel servers and tpvp. After that i came back to WvW and feel like ive put on some god mode hack lol. I’ve died like 10 times in the past 2 months, 6 of which i got zerged down. (Roaming 4+ hours a day)
you run a cheese bunker build. Enough said.
anyway tpvp is full of condi spam and cc spam which I hate, while I hate the bunker condi perp builds in WvW, it’s not nearly as bad as the point aoe spam.
Funny based purely on my signature you think thats the only class or build ive ever used. I havent played that build since November.
You play guardian main. Im sure you have some other classes you play from time to time. And while my engi build may be a kitteneesy on that you literally never die, good luck killing people with it. I’ve moved on to glassier builds
What if it took a slight time to become completely invisible, like one second?
d/p main dmg comes from bs… please tell me how d/p suppose to do dmg after your “change” … or stay alive for that matter
The current problem as I see it is D/P opens with a chain attack and then one of a few things happen. First the chain will kill its target. Second the chain will gravely wound it. Third the chain will have limited effect due to a variety of conditions. This is where D/P has a MASSIVE advantage over D/D. No matter the outcome, they can immediately stealth and retry. They can do this infinitely until target is dead. My change means there is a cooldown of sorts before they can pop that second combo allowing players a chance to pressure the thief. Anyone who has tried both D/D and D/P knows which is harder to pull off. D/P has all the D/D advantages with virtually none of its disadvantages. It also has two built in blinds, a blink, a daze, a spamable leap and BS. D/D has two of those.
The current problem you describe comes from ppl standing still and spamming key 1. There are 100 ways of preventing d/p even going in stealth and there are many ways to stop/avoid backstab. That is not stealth issue, the issue is between monitor and chair.
Now i truly don’t believe you know how d/p or thieves for that matter work. You say that d/p can immidiately go stealth but that is a lie, revealed wouldn’t allow it unless thief didn’t attack at all. If thief didn’t attack, he didn’t do any dmg so where is that grave dmg you talking about?
D/P can’t always and freely go in stealth as you claim, if they are actually fighting they are using their initiative. If that thief actually managed to go stealth and leave you at low HP it means he did good job at managing initiative and you simply got outplayed.
As far as pvp goes, i highly recommend you to roll d/p and try to play vs top 100-200 players. You will be happy if you get 1 “chain” off. You know why? Because pvp doesn’t spoil players with key 1 spam like wvw does. The average wvw player (not all of course) is complete noob compared to a person who spent equal amount of time in pvp.
You say you don’t pvp nor apprently care. How can you be so arrogant to propose changes that would heavily affect all areas of the game: pvp, wvw and pve?
What if it took a slight time to become completely invisible, like one second?
Sure as long as any other defensive and offensive spell of every class in game has 1 sec delay as well.
(edited by Cynz.9437)
I think this belongs on the thief nerf wish list thread…Stealth trap trolololol, kill and be on your way.
As annoying as I find them, I’m fine with permanent-stealth being a thief’s thing. I don’t have the patience to play it or fight them most of the time but I can normally simply escape them and if they are really good or annoying, anti-stealth traps and calling in more people are ways to deal with them. I’d use Sic ‘Em more if it lasted longer, but I’m OK with the annoyance as a style of play for those who enjoy it.
That said, I don’t think thieves should be able to stake downed players while in stealth. This makes them impossible to interrupt and means that going down with a thief in the battle is almost a guaranteed stake. Let them keep doing damage to get the kill from stealth or become visible and vulnerable like everyone else. The becomes even more of an issue when staking is worth points with the Bloodlust mechanics.
I think this belongs on the thief nerf wish list thread…Stealth trap trolololol, kill and be on your way.
Feel free to add…
Link’s in my signature…
:| Make sure to link back to the thread and the original person…
Permastealth thief is dead. They are just annoying now. Once they’ve stacked invis they have no initiative to actually open more than once. If you really think they are bad now and not just annoying you need to spend some more time fighting them.
Permastealth thief is dead. They are just annoying now. Once they’ve stacked invis they have no initiative to actually open more than once. If you really think they are bad now and not just annoying you need to spend some more time fighting them.
Sorry… it’s permastealth… it’s perma… you can’t get rid of it. it will always be around because it’s perma…
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