Guild Wars 2

It’s fairly clear to me that Anet at least reads what is posted here, and sometimes uses the ideas. In a way this worries me because I fear there is a bias in way WvW is portrayed. I have yet to see an ANET labelled player in T7 or T8, and I doubt I will unless they play “off peak” as I do. So I want to share with you what WvW means to me, and to give an open invite to ANET for anyone to come and join me for a couple of hours: walk a mile in my shoes and see the world you’ve given me.

Anet themselves talk about WvW as a place of “epic battles” and describe the large scale play that I assume is the sort of experience people get in T1 or T2 (never been that high – I’m on IoJ). I can see the fun in this, and respect the idea that many people enjoy it, however this is most definitely not the WvW I know.

There are plenty of reasons why people play WvW away from “prime” time including shift work, different time zones, personal choice. To suggest that the contribution these people bring to the game is somehow less important or less useful simply because they play at this time is just plain wrong.

World vs World off peak is a place of courage and tenacity. It is often a place of long hours, of hard graft, and of hope. I’ve seen so many small but important encounters that you would miss in a zerg. For me the real heroes are people like:
The Kaineng recruit who stayed under fire to res his mentor.
The Eradon Terrace defender who stayed to defend his keep against our attacking party – despite being out numbered 4 to 1.
The Devona’s Rest mesmer desperately trying to find somewhere safe to hide in Hills so he could port his team back in when we left.
The Gate of Madness elementalist who led us on a merry but mortal chase so his team could sneak in past our defending party.

These are the forgotten stories, where one person makes the difference, where bravery and a bit of luck can win the day for your side. These are our epic battles – off peak and often less than 5 people.

It makes me angry when people try to label those of us who play off peak as “just karma training” or “shouldn’t be allowed to affect the score”. This belittles the fact that we are here and trying to do the same as “prime time” players – but without the same level of support. WvW is a 24/7 matchup, and that 24 hours includes players like the heroes above. There is no reward for spending hours running around your home Borderlands upgrading things – in fact those of us who do have to pay for it – but we make the time to do it anyway so the next team can come on to a decent base.

So my few final thoughts:
Everyone on WvW is equally important and their contribution to the game should be respected (except maybe the trolls!).

Anet – I’m serious – spend some time off peak, and some time in the lower tiers. If you already do this then tell us and make sure we have some way to continue playing. Hint: bigger more challenging maps with more PvE mobs and minimum numbers to achieve things is not the answer we need! For higher tiers – yes, for lower tiers or off peak – you come and play it and show us how it should be done. (I’ll happily follow an ANET roamer while he/she shows me how two players can be effective in the new maps ….)

For all those people complaining about “night capping” I don’t see anyone complaining about their own off peak players giving their own server an unfair advantage… maybe, just maybe, we’re appreciated after all. So next time you log in, and find your home BL upgraded and the right colour, just remember the forgotten few who made this possible.

Finally, Anet – if only 10% of players post their views in these forums, prime time and queued servers would always be more vocal. Aim to find a balance that lets us ALL play when and how we can.

Lots of good points here, like the post.

Regarding population in "off-hours", I think the only way they can (and probably will) solve that is either MegaServer/EotM style, or a partial solution. For example group together all servers during off-time into 6 or so Alliances. No idea about how all the details would work. But I can’t see any other ways to fill out the population outside of the "prime-time".

Anyways, the idea of reducing the number of actual maps as the population decreases also has some good merits.

That’s what I propose. Timezone locked WvW servers you can then get matchups that make sense for your own timezone no matter what or nearly! You can also scale the number of servers as needed.

+1 to OP
The server that I call home (AR) has a small off-peak population. We all respect them for their valiant efforts and the fact that they don’t give up-EVER. They are “ROCKS” and very talented players despite the fact that they are usually outnumbered especially when playing against certain servers. They are very precious to us, and a large part of keeping us in the fight.
I have been around-as high as T2 on my main account which I don’t play now. But, I chose a lower server for my second account. Communities are much closer and one’s contributions actually seem to matter.
As for the solution to the off-hours capping& PVD’ing gates? I will leave that to those that are much more informed than I. Maybe there is no real solution with a 24/7 global game.

+1 to all who play non “prime times” and keep upgrades going on towers, keeps, supply camps, and SMC. Also shout out to those playing off times for their “servers” who havoc, and take things, and those who fight as well.

So many of us “non prime time” players are drowned out, and forgotten by “prime time players” to where our voices are barely heard. <3 the OP.

Please Anet do not break WvW down to “set” time zones for severs. It would nix a lot of us who do play odd hours due to not working the typical “day time” jobs from being able to play with our friends. (And yes some of us play both NA prime time, and off times. )

Nobody is belittling your contribution. Most players realize that your contribution is immense, holding waypoints when outnumbered, etc.

With respect to PPT/score, it is difficult to make a decent argument as to why off hours scoring should be equal across time zones since the vast majority of players on NA servers play during NA time. A server gets 15 new NA players and it is no big deal. A server gets 15 new OCX or SEA and the balance of power shifts.

This is why JQ has been the number 1 server for years. They’re rarely ahead after reset (at least when I was in tier 1 on TC), but they cap stuff when everybody else goes to bed.

To rephrase the question, scorewise – why should 15 players in Australia, Taiwan or Singapore count more than 15 players in the US or Canada? California and Ontario have more legislative seats than Delaware and Nove Scotia – so why not weigh the scoring by time period?

@OP

Well said…

I feel ya!

I play mostly from 9pm PST to midnight PST. Over a year ago now on my server I was the last commander tag on all four maps most nights. I dealt with all the NA logging off and no one logging in to replace them since OCX Prime was still 3-4 hours away. The hours between NA Prime and OCX Prime are the longest between primetimes that no other timezone deals with. I’d witness all our waypoints lost as we were 2v1’d almost every night because we didn’t have enough people on and no guilds whatsoever.

Some of my servermates and I still recall fondly a defense of our home bl garrison during Season 2 from around 11pm PST to 3am PST. We stayed up so late, even the EST players with me, because we were having so much fun with the intense 2v1 fights to defend the last remaining thing we had on all maps. A newish commander even tagged up and took over to continue and she did quite well.

Today, my server is the strongest in the match during this timeslot. We tick close to 400 during my rally hours. TBH it sucks, especially if one of the EST commanders decide to stay up late because he’s having fun. Late PST is such a sensitive timezone. There aren’t very many guilds and what there is usually are under 10-man havoc guilds. Most of the West Coast players with more flexible schedules all join EST or CST guilds because the fights are much more balanced during NA Prime. I may need to scale back my raids again.

For the record I am for “Time-Slice” scoring rather than “Weighted” scoring. I do think that everyone contributes in their way, and that it doesn’t feel good for anyone to have their efforts marginalized.

My problem, and the problem that is making so many NA players irritated, is that we feel like our efforts are marginalized. NA servers are somewhat NA-balanced, and the biggest fights are during NA time. Since most every server can muster decent forces during NA prime the scores tend to be relatively close during that time slice.

Now we have some divergence. Some servers have almost no coverage outside NA prime. That’s okay, boring for the other servers, but still okay. Some servers though dominate so heavily outside of NA that the servers just runaway from the others without any struggle. Think about a server that is heavily weighted to OCX and still decent during SEA.

All the NA players go to bed sitting on a small lead, or in a close match. During NA no server was able to keep tick higher than 300-ish. The OCX crew from server B goes to work, takes everything with little resistance, overcomes the efforts of the entire NA time zone, and passes off homeland T3 structures and opposing structures with advanced upgrades as well as high tick to their own SEA crew. SEA crew from server B just has to maintain. Maybe they have some resistance, and lose much of the other BLs, but it’s far easier to fight off that resistance in a T2/T3 structure than it is to from a paper structure, which is what the NA group has to do all evening. So you have a 400 plus tick from OCX through early SEA with most, if not all, of your own BL sitting at T3 and some of each of Server A and Server C structures happily at T2. EU crew logs in, and loses what they hold on the other BL’s, but keeps most of what they own on home BL ticking around 175-200. In this scenario server B ticks over 300 for 12 hours, and 400+ for 8 of those hours. You can’t do that during NA. No server does that during NA.

There are not many servers in the situation above, but the ones that are there completely minimalize the efforts of the majority of the players from all three servers. If a guild moves into the NA time slot it makes a few PPT difference, but if that same guild moves into OCX/SEA/EU time slot it can throw the entire balance of power out the window. Mainly OCX and SEA though due to longer ability to maintain high tick.

Thank you Kaiser for your thoughts.

I understand your points. I would expect that if a large non-prime presence is so influential then the servers that benefit from this will rise through the tiers until they reach a server or tier that can cope. In this way the current system should be self balancing – and it is – albeit very slowly. I’ve been on the receiving end of this when IoJ dropped from T3 to T8 because some of our guilds moved on. For those of us who stuck with our server it has taken a painfully long time for us to reach a level where we were matched more evenly.

My original post however was not about this, nor whether this is right or wrong. My point was, and still is, that the many prime time players have a louder voice than the fewer non-prime players: simply because there are more of them.

I have no issue with when people play. Perhaps you might read my final thoughts again in the original post, as well as the examples I mentioned. For those of us who play non-prime time, and also for players in low tiers, a group of 10 can be a sizeable zerg, and groups of 2 or 3 are much more likely. I’ve seen heroic actions from players of all experiences, and from small guild groups, that show both a dedication to their server and a willingness to risk all for the team that will be on later.

I don’t want the voices of these dedicated players to be lost in the noise of prime time. I have a worry that so many posts here, and comments by Anet themselves, refer to epic battles between huge blobs. That new developments will be geared to the vocal many with no thought of balance for non-prime or lower tier players. This is what lies behind my open invitation for any Anet player to join me, or any of the lower tier servers, and experience WvW the way we do. I hold hope against the doubt that I will see this challenge met.

We see a different side to WvW compared with the top tiers or the prime times. If we don’t get the chance to tell our stories how will Anet understand just how different this game can be for us? How will they find the balance that can make this game mode work for all of us prime and non-prime players alike?

Oh I agree with you Yuffi that the lower tiers are generally ignored, and even if vocal their thoughts aren’t lent as much credence due to pure numbers. Also as on most NA servers the trend is for more NA population than non-NA, and so the NA tends to be more heard than the non-NA. Even servers that dominate non-NA prime trend toward having more NA, just not more NA than the other servers they fight. Non-NA are most definitely appreciated by those that have them, and reviled by those that don’t, which is why the NA players are crying for more, and/or less of them.

I’m not sure the solution, as numbers tend to win out in most instances. I would kind of wonder though if ANet would introduce pure low cap BL tiers for players that enjoy that style of gameplay, and move the players that don’t to higher pop tiers for free would that solve some issues. If this kind a system were introduces you could have a tier with BL caps at 30 for instance. The players that enjoy low cap WvW would stay, and the others would get a free move to a higher cap tier.

There will be no pleasant solution to this problem. There is no win/win here. People don’t like compromise, because compromise means no one wins. At best we can hope for a solution that only makes everyone mildly irritated, or it will just be more of what we are dealing with now.

As someone who does play off-peak, I think the score should be roughly proportionate to the number of players online.

Samis.1750:

Nobody is belittling your contribution. Most players realize that your contribution is immense, holding waypoints when outnumbered, etc.

With respect to PPT/score, it is difficult to make a decent argument as to why off hours scoring should be equal across time zones since the vast majority of players on NA servers play during NA time. A server gets 15 new NA players and it is no big deal. A server gets 15 new OCX or SEA and the balance of power shifts.

This is why JQ has been the number 1 server for years. They’re rarely ahead after reset (at least when I was in tier 1 on TC), but they cap stuff when everybody else goes to bed.

To rephrase the question, scorewise – why should 15 players in Australia, Taiwan or Singapore count more than 15 players in the US or Canada? California and Ontario have more legislative seats than Delaware and Nove Scotia – so why not weigh the scoring by time period?

I would dare to say that on a Majority of servers if NA primetime got 15 consistent players it woild be a shift in power. Since id probably say t3/4? and below most servers dont hvae enough coverage for the maps. And 15 is more then enough to take a map with little to no opposition.

Samis.1750:

Nobody is belittling your contribution. Most players realize that your contribution is immense, holding waypoints when outnumbered, etc.

With respect to PPT/score, it is difficult to make a decent argument as to why off hours scoring should be equal across time zones since the vast majority of players on NA servers play during NA time. A server gets 15 new NA players and it is no big deal. A server gets 15 new OCX or SEA and the balance of power shifts.

This is why JQ has been the number 1 server for years. They’re rarely ahead after reset (at least when I was in tier 1 on TC), but they cap stuff when everybody else goes to bed.

To rephrase the question, scorewise – why should 15 players in Australia, Taiwan or Singapore count more than 15 players in the US or Canada? California and Ontario have more legislative seats than Delaware and Nove Scotia – so why not weigh the scoring by time period?

You are very much inaccurate in your statements here, as well as contradictory. Are your claims based on personal experience and conversations in TS with the players?

My guild has general 20-25 players on all night, who work night shift. I know because 15+ of them are my coworkers. We play late at night in the time your inaccurately claiming Australia, Taiwan or Singapore players are making the only difference. We have others we play with who are late night players due to their work schedule.

dancingmonkey.4902:

My guild has general 20-25 players on all night, who work night shift. I know because 15+ of them are my coworkers. We play late at night in the time your inaccurately claiming Australia, Taiwan or Singapore players are making the only difference. We have others we play with who are late night players due to their work schedule.

I live in New Zealand so my prime time is pretty much everyone else’s off-peak. Yes, there are a number of OCX / SEA players on at that time but I would say that there are an equal number of insomniacs and early birds from the across the NA timezones. After all – NA is a big place over I don’t know how many timezones.

As a lower tier player I think that an extra 15 people at ANY time would make a huge difference to our server.

joneirikb.7506:

Lots of good points here, like the post.

Regarding population in “off-hours”, I think the only way they can (and probably will) solve that is either MegaServer/EotM style, or a partial solution. For example group together all servers during off-time into 6 or so Alliances. No idea about how all the details would work. But I can’t see any other ways to fill out the population outside of the “prime-time”.

Anyways, the idea of reducing the number of actual maps as the population decreases also has some good merits.

I would love to see some type of server balancing, I usually play PvE but when I do go to WvW it seems like I am alone and always encountering the brave souls that like to gang up 2,3, or more on a single player. I realize this is WvW and they are trying to get their points but to someone attempting to learn and not finding much help online for my server (Isle of Janthir) it is frustrating to always be solo and getting attacked by groups.