Guild Wars 2

ngdani.9482:

If a thief resets the fight, the opponent also gets the reset.
That would only make sense if there are other enemy players that have also engaged and are still in range or NPC mobs around.

Did I mention Golanta yet in this discussion? That’s the “beauty” of the system … thief hides amongst skales, when things become a bit tough thief stealthes … Skales will immediately break aggro on him and as soon as bleed or poison is off of him he will be out of combat. The player he attacked still has like 5 skales attackign him so he won’t get out of combat. Once fully healed (or 3/4 healed) thief will say hello again to the enemy who now is lower on health than before and also has a few skills on cooldown …

If you play against a smart thief (that is one who knows when to break off) it’s next to impossible to kill him because they can distance themselves out of your range easily and will heal/cleanse while in stealth.

Easy thief kills are only those against a player who pushes too much.

Many classes have target-only skills and those are at a dire disadvantage against a thief. Every class that can use untargeted skills (life blast, well dropping, 100 Blades, etc.) has an advantage in thief fights over those who don’t.

In addition to that thieves also have bugged escape skills. Take #3 on D/P. Got the thief paralyzed/rooted … doesn’t matter -#3 will get him away. Have a ranger use SB #3 under the same conditions … the ranger will stay where he is. So #3 offers a thief an almost unlimited amount of stunbreakers because they’re initiative based, not cooldown based …

ngdani.9482:

Please tell me how you’re able to perma stealth.

Not sure if troll…

I usually run D/P D/D with SB thrown in when needed. P #5, Heartseeker, Heartseeker, Heartseeker (I never manage 4 jumps though I have seen other players being able to do it) and if critical on initiative use Sanctuary or your heal in you took the right one and not the evade one … if NPCs/monsters nearby … D/D and #5 and since doors seem to be proper stealth creators again … hello, door – have a D/D #5.

As a thief I coose where I fight and trust me, where I fight I have lots of things around me to make targetting me a real chore and I’ll have lots of things around me that’ll keep attacking you when I’m breaking off and those things will give me stealth as well.

coglin.1867:

I cannot think of the last time I didn’t know where the damage came from. Do not forcefully apply inability to locate a thief onto the rest of the community please.

Well, so you’ve never been in a fight inside a keep then? Arrow carts firing at you, AoE from the enemies in front of you and, of course, you have no problem to detect the thief that’s backstabbing you and probably isn’t even rendering because the game engine is somehwat at its limits in certain conditions.

Solo roaming on a wide open pasture – hey – I can fight thieves easily. When already engaged vs 5+ players … much more difficult …

When I am playing a thief … do I go after targets in a wide open pasture … rarely. I go where fights are and pick off the backline and – all but you must be bad players because they almost never saw me coming and they almost always have had to use a few of their eveades against the players they are fighting, wich makes it a lot easier for me.

coglin.1867:

this is a learn to play issue in my opinion. If you take damage for 2s and never dodge or even double dodge, your at fault, not the game, the profession, or the mechanics.

Smart guy that you are … so you have extra dodges available just for when thieves show up? We’re not talking sPvP here but WvW. And it happens that there may be other players around who might be a tad hostile and who may have had you require to dodge a bit.

In a 1vs 1 situation, yes, learn to dodge, absolutely.

But in my experience thieves almost never start a fight, they join exisiting ones and that makes things way more difficult for their targets.

Jim Hunter.6821:

If you really think thieves are OP then whisper me in game and 1v1 me. You bring a thief and I’ll play whatever profession you want me to.

That’s a nice strawman argument because most encounters with good (!) thieves are not 1 vs 1, far from it. If you want to go 1 vs 1 on him try to see if you can get together in WvW and then meet him in Skale infested Golanta and then see how easy it is to kill a thief with mutliple targets around so that “nearest enemy” does not give you the thief when revealed and you have like 15+ tabbing options regarding enemies so you that mouse click is the best way of selecting your target.

The only times I died there was when other players joined at a very, er, unfortunate moment or when I continued pressure although I knew I should have backed off – oh, and once when I didn’t pay attention and the camp flipped and I ended up right next to Mr. just-spawned-to-say-hello Campboss … my, that hammer did hurt. I still feel the grass tickling in my nostrils. Shadow-return can be unsafe ….

HtFde.3856:

Jim Hunter.6821:

If you really think thieves are OP then whisper me in game and 1v1 me. You bring a thief and I’ll play whatever profession you want me to.

That’s a nice strawman argument because most encounters with good (!) thieves are not 1 vs 1, far from it. If you want to go 1 vs 1 on him try to see if you can get together in WvW and then meet him in Skale infested Golanta and then see how easy it is to kill a thief with mutliple targets around so that “nearest enemy” does not give you the thief when revealed and you have like 15+ tabbing options regarding enemies so you that mouse click is the best way of selecting your target.

The only times I died there was when other players joined at a very, er, unfortunate moment or when I continued pressure although I knew I should have backed off – oh, and once when I didn’t pay attention and the camp flipped and I ended up right next to Mr. just-spawned-to-say-hello Campboss … my, that hammer did hurt. I still feel the grass tickling in my nostrils. Shadow-return can be unsafe ….

Maybe the better argument is that they should remove all the random npc’s that get in the way of combat. I personally hate when I’m fighting 1vX and I watch someone rally off a firefly because I can’t get in for the stomp. Who knows, it might even take some strain off the servers and make WvW a little less laggy.

Jim Hunter.6821:

HtFde.3856:

Jim Hunter.6821:

If you really think thieves are OP then whisper me in game and 1v1 me. You bring a thief and I’ll play whatever profession you want me to.

That’s a nice strawman argument because most encounters with good (!) thieves are not 1 vs 1, far from it. If you want to go 1 vs 1 on him try to see if you can get together in WvW and then meet him in Skale infested Golanta and then see how easy it is to kill a thief with mutliple targets around so that “nearest enemy” does not give you the thief when revealed and you have like 15+ tabbing options regarding enemies so you that mouse click is the best way of selecting your target.

The only times I died there was when other players joined at a very, er, unfortunate moment or when I continued pressure although I knew I should have backed off – oh, and once when I didn’t pay attention and the camp flipped and I ended up right next to Mr. just-spawned-to-say-hello Campboss … my, that hammer did hurt. I still feel the grass tickling in my nostrils. Shadow-return can be unsafe ….

Maybe the better argument is that they should remove all the random npc’s that get in the way of combat. I personally hate when I’m fighting 1vX and I watch someone rally off a firefly because I can’t get in for the stomp. Who knows, it might even take some strain off the servers and make WvW a little less laggy.

Amen – right from public beta I have not been a friend of downstate, quite the opposite to be true. It’s yet another pro-zerg feature favouring the stronger party and it can reverse a fight when the one downed is lucky enough to find a white creatue (lucky because there is one and lucky because the blasted camera actually allows them to target it).

But even if you take out the monsters/NPCs and white creatures (which would be good for 1 vs 1 or small group fights) the problem of re-aquiring a stealthed target remains. One of the reasons I love to fight at the edge of battles is because I know how difficult it is for those I attack to select me in the brief amount of time I am visible when there are many “enemies” (from my target’s point of view) around. And many classes need a target for their skills … maybe that’d be another option to change —- why can a thief use shadowstep without a target (allowing for the skill to be used as a get-away utility) but have the Guardian’s Judge’s Intervention be targeted and thus offering no escape option (unless you have a monster/NPC in the vicinity that you can use it on).

Why does D/P #3 shadowstep you even when paralyzed or rooted and similar skills from other professions keep you securely in place …

I came into GW 1 rather late and after a rather detestable start in Prophecies with a ranger my second character was a Sin. I don’t actually have mains in games like this but my GW 1 sin has the hoghest playtime … and I remember well how often Sins got completely worked around by ANet (and not just Shadowform).

Aparently ANet has a problem balancing burst classes – and the GW 2 changes to thief are nowhere as extensive or radical as those applied to the GW 1 Assassin – which didn’t even have stealth … I guess the main reason is that most changes to Sin were caused by sPvP players comlaining. Thief in sPvP, however, is nowhere near as powerful as in WvW and I guess that’s why the badly needed rebalance of that class remains undone because ANet seems to lack a clear vision of what WvW should be. So it remains an unloved and pretty much uncared fore stepchild – a hybrid somewhere between PvE und unbalanced PvP with no clearly defined rules other than: Unbalanced is intentional, have fun.

coglin.1867:

You mean from DoTs? because if your claiming they can attack and not break stealth, you would be fibbing good sir.

Most of what you write is correct but in this you’re wrong … it’s yet another broken mechanic. If you go D/P and use #5 and then #2 the stealth will be applied after the damage from heartseeker … so they have done damage but are not punished with “revealed” but can either kite a bit and regen initiative or immediately use a backstab.

The mechanism would be less broken if they’d gain stealth from executing heartseeker but would become revealed if HS did damage anything.

Tecnically, though, yes – they have not done damage while being stealthed … they just managed to gain stealth when they should be revealed instead

Re targeting a thief wouldn’t be a problem if they removed all the random rally bait npc’s, and if the thief reset the fight you would also be out of combat because the stupid npc’s wouldn’t be there to keep you in combat.

As for picking off zerglings that strayed too far from their tag… That’s really not a ”thief op” thing, I can do that with any profession. I especially love doing it with my ranger because I know they are raging.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Re targeting a thief wouldn’t be a problem if they removed all the random rally bait npc’s, and if the thief reset the fight you would also be out of combat because the stupid npc’s wouldn’t be there to keep you in combat.

As for picking off zerglings that strayed too far from their tag… That’s really not a ”thief op” thing, I can do that with any profession. I especially love doing it with my ranger because I know they are raging.

Hehe – I love that as well. But – big but – if they’re on TS and say … “There’s a ranger downing our rear” you stand out bright as red paint on a white wall and then it’s time to run(which – depending on weapon set – might not be very successful) … as a thief, however … you might run (and will most probably succeed) … or just disengage a bit and wait before re-attacking.

More or less unlimited Stealth (which a Mesmer does not have) + high burst damage + super high mobility working as gap closers or openers = broken

A Mesmer can do a lot of the same but will then have a ton of cooldowns to deal with so it’s not rinse and repeat.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Maybe the better argument is that they should remove all the random npc’s that get in the way of combat. I personally hate when I’m fighting 1vX and I watch someone rally off a firefly because I can’t get in for the stomp. Who knows, it might even take some strain off the servers and make WvW a little less laggy.

this so much. Or, if a-net doesn’t want to, at least limit the rally-up mechanic to deaths of enemy players

phirefox.2568:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Maybe the better argument is that they should remove all the random npc’s that get in the way of combat. I personally hate when I’m fighting 1vX and I watch someone rally off a firefly because I can’t get in for the stomp. Who knows, it might even take some strain off the servers and make WvW a little less laggy.

this so much. Or, if a-net doesn’t want to, at least limit the rally-up mechanic to deaths of enemy players

I think that retargeting may be the biggest issue with stealth enemies, esp with NPCs around. Many times by the time I cycle back through all the targets the thief is stealthed again.

One easy solution to that is to have automatic retargeting once stealth comes off (ie you target a thief and he stealths, your targeting of him will pop back up automatically when he comes back out as long as you don’t retarget anything else.)

MaximillianVonSchatten.6278:

phirefox.2568:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Maybe the better argument is that they should remove all the random npc’s that get in the way of combat. I personally hate when I’m fighting 1vX and I watch someone rally off a firefly because I can’t get in for the stomp. Who knows, it might even take some strain off the servers and make WvW a little less laggy.

this so much. Or, if a-net doesn’t want to, at least limit the rally-up mechanic to deaths of enemy players

I think that retargeting may be the biggest issue with stealth enemies, esp with NPCs around. Many times by the time I cycle back through all the targets the thief is stealthed again.

One easy solution to that is to have automatic retargeting once stealth comes off (ie you target a thief and he stealths, your targeting of him will pop back up automatically when he comes back out as long as you don’t retarget anything else.)

Which would be horrible for Mesmers because it would render all clones and illusions worthless since you’t be targetting the real Mesmer immediately. And Mesmers cannot outheal or cleanse conditions like thieves can – so they kind of require you to take your sweet time to get the real mesmer targeted again …

xihorus.2804:

In WvW I hate it when….

….I am on my warrior who only has melee weapons and a ranged class attacks me. All ranged weapons should be disabled when a ranged class initiates a fight with me.

….I am roaming on my thief and am attacked by three people at once. Two of them should be automatically disconnected at the start of the fight to make it more even.

….I am on my support guardian and the enemy stops focusing me and switches to my teammates instead because of my high defenses. The game should force enemies to be only able to attack me.

….I am on my elementalist and enemies don’t stand in my meteor shower after I cast. The game should force enemies to stand in the red circle and soak up the damage, like in PvE.

….I am on the WvW forums listening to people complain about stealth mechanics, because they haven’t spent enough time in WvW to learn how to deal with them.

I think xihorus should be in charge of balance patches.

Yes, thief cannot instakill but the thief took 95% of my mesmer’s health – full zerk mesmer.

And why full zerk: I just ran after a ranger a few minutes hitting with greatsword – my zerk mesmer could do damage only 5% – or less – on one hit. To get enemy down, it has to be zerk. I could have ran over the whole EB after ranger, but still not get him down.

Otherway it is different, when I have ran away from a ranger, the ranger has got me in a couple of seconds. I have tried the suggested double dodge, but too soon the pew pew has started again and I have no more dodges left.

I have tried non-zerk: rapid and soldier, but they have not helped. Zerk is good because I often support our zerg using the ranged greatsword – both gs2 and gs4 does a kind of area damage which is good in enemy zerg.

It’s not just the stealth. Losing target when your opponent has stealthed, combined with the absolutely horrid targeting system does not help.

AnniMira.2506:

Yes, thief cannot instakill but the thief took 95% of my mesmer’s health – full zerk mesmer.

And why full zerk: I just ran after a ranger a few minutes hitting with greatsword – my zerk mesmer could do damage only 5% – or less – on one hit. To get enemy down, it has to be zerk. I could have ran over the whole EB after ranger, but still not get him down.

Otherway it is different, when I have ran away from a ranger, the ranger has got me in a couple of seconds. I have tried the suggested double dodge, but too soon the pew pew has started again and I have no more dodges left.

I have tried non-zerk: rapid and soldier, but they have not helped. Zerk is good because I often support our zerg using the ranged greatsword – both gs2 and gs4 does a kind of area damage which is good in enemy zerg.

In this case, however, I feel you should give your Mesmer a bit more attention. In WvW there’s 2 major playstyles for Mesmers:

Shatter Mesmer
PU Condi Mesmer

The Condi Mesmer takes a while to kill things (like all condition based builds) but is – in return, so to say – quite sturdy. A nice thing against fleeing opponents in any condition build is Superior Sigil of Torment.

Shatter Mesmer is – like a thief – a melee build. It requires a bit of training to pull the shatters off.

Greatsword is … meh … it can be useful when defending a tower/keep (it’s usually not a great idea to jump down and engage a zerg in melee) or when attacking (taking oil down, attacking archers, etc.) but when roaming, GS kind of sucks because all GS attacks can be easily avoided and it has a pretty narrow cone of attack, making it easy for an opponent, to outflank you.

As to not being able to catch a someone … yes … Mesmers are lame ducks. That’s why many people like burt builds. You approach stealthed and burst them down before they can run. Once an enemy is running from a Mesmer he’s away (unless … see PU build and Sigil of Torment) …

As for you not being able to run … (a) Mesmers don’t run Against a ranger you have quite good chances – stay at his back. If the ranger is better than you, though, it is time to run away. (b) If you didn’t manage to escape you must have packed the wrong skills … when roaming you usually have Decoy, Veil, Blink and Mass Invisibility.

These – when used appropriately amd together with Staff 2 – will let you break combat from anyone and anything and in 90% of the cases should allow you to reappear behind a hill or rock or somethign else blocking the sight of your opponent so that they cannot re-engage.

They’re not the best but if you continue to have problems, consider using runes of the traveler or similar to boost your base speed.

Valentin.2073:

msalakka.4653:

Valentin.2073:

I main a rangfer and thieves are the least of my concern. I suggest investing on your armor.

Yeah but your pew pew channels into the Thief even if he stealths. The rest of us have to be able to see him to deal damage. As far as armor, I wear full ascended armor and trinkets and still take close to 7k per Backstab alone. That’s a third of my health pool in one hit, and followed by whip this whip that, Heartseeker, all within a second or two. Stealth itself isn’t the problem, it’s the completely ridiculous damage that goes with it.

i did mention that i play a heavy condition build so that means I don’t use a longbow. i use axe+warhorn and shortbow.

what set are you running? berserker, soldier, celestial, settler, or rabid? wvw is not the same as pve. thief is only scary when you are fighting them as a beginner but as you learn stuff to deal with them, you’d be laughing about that post that you just made.

btw, why would you let a thief land a backstab on you? once, a thief stealths maximum time that he can stay there is 4-5 seconds unless he used shadow refuge. just count 1 and 2, and prepare to dodge or block and if you have access to an aoe burst, drop it on your feet. always look at your back when you are roaming alone. if you see a thief following you, you can either prepare to go defensive or try to nuke him down first.

i am sure a lot of wvw players on your server can give you a lot more tips on handling zerker thieves.

Dire. Took over 10k from a Backstab just a few days ago. It is broken in my opinion. If you have the ability to reset the fight at any given time (= no risk) then the path to reward should be appropriately harder to climb.

msalakka.4653:

Valentin.2073:

msalakka.4653:

Valentin.2073:

I main a rangfer and thieves are the least of my concern. I suggest investing on your armor.

Yeah but your pew pew channels into the Thief even if he stealths. The rest of us have to be able to see him to deal damage. As far as armor, I wear full ascended armor and trinkets and still take close to 7k per Backstab alone. That’s a third of my health pool in one hit, and followed by whip this whip that, Heartseeker, all within a second or two. Stealth itself isn’t the problem, it’s the completely ridiculous damage that goes with it.

i did mention that i play a heavy condition build so that means I don’t use a longbow. i use axe+warhorn and shortbow.

what set are you running? berserker, soldier, celestial, settler, or rabid? wvw is not the same as pve. thief is only scary when you are fighting them as a beginner but as you learn stuff to deal with them, you’d be laughing about that post that you just made.

btw, why would you let a thief land a backstab on you? once, a thief stealths maximum time that he can stay there is 4-5 seconds unless he used shadow refuge. just count 1 and 2, and prepare to dodge or block and if you have access to an aoe burst, drop it on your feet. always look at your back when you are roaming alone. if you see a thief following you, you can either prepare to go defensive or try to nuke him down first.

i am sure a lot of wvw players on your server can give you a lot more tips on handling zerker thieves.

Dire. Took over 10k from a Backstab just a few days ago. It is broken in my opinion. If you have the ability to reset the fight at any given time (= no risk) then the path to reward should be appropriately harder to climb.

I once took at 14k Killshot, and now they are making that skill 40% faster (thanks to some twisted game intentional unbalancing). If a warrior is stealthed there is no way to even see it coming. No skill should do more than 8k at full max berserker. In comparison it take 400% more time to cast a churning earth that does 50% less damage with a class that has 50% less hp.

Xillllix.3485:

msalakka.4653:

Valentin.2073:

msalakka.4653:

Valentin.2073:

I main a rangfer and thieves are the least of my concern. I suggest investing on your armor.

Yeah but your pew pew channels into the Thief even if he stealths. The rest of us have to be able to see him to deal damage. As far as armor, I wear full ascended armor and trinkets and still take close to 7k per Backstab alone. That’s a third of my health pool in one hit, and followed by whip this whip that, Heartseeker, all within a second or two. Stealth itself isn’t the problem, it’s the completely ridiculous damage that goes with it.

i did mention that i play a heavy condition build so that means I don’t use a longbow. i use axe+warhorn and shortbow.

what set are you running? berserker, soldier, celestial, settler, or rabid? wvw is not the same as pve. thief is only scary when you are fighting them as a beginner but as you learn stuff to deal with them, you’d be laughing about that post that you just made.

btw, why would you let a thief land a backstab on you? once, a thief stealths maximum time that he can stay there is 4-5 seconds unless he used shadow refuge. just count 1 and 2, and prepare to dodge or block and if you have access to an aoe burst, drop it on your feet. always look at your back when you are roaming alone. if you see a thief following you, you can either prepare to go defensive or try to nuke him down first.

i am sure a lot of wvw players on your server can give you a lot more tips on handling zerker thieves.

Dire. Took over 10k from a Backstab just a few days ago. It is broken in my opinion. If you have the ability to reset the fight at any given time (= no risk) then the path to reward should be appropriately harder to climb.

I once took at 14k Killshot, and now they are making that skill 40% faster (thanks to some twisted game intentional unbalancing). If a warrior is stealthed there is no way to even see it coming. No skill should do more than 8k at full max berserker. In comparison it take 400% more time to cast a churning earth that does 50% less damage with a class that has 50% less hp.

That’s another part that’s often overlooked in the “thieves are op” discussion – the ability to grant that blasted stealth to other party members. The most fun I ever had were 2 thieves + 1 mesmer + 1 engi at Golanta. That group downed 12 people before they had to run (only to be back a few minutes later and farming everything but the main zerg which ran by them). Now do that with, say, 1 ranger, 1 necro and 2 guardians …

Xillllix.3485:

I once took at 14k Killshot, and now they are making that skill 40% faster (thanks to some twisted game intentional unbalancing). If a warrior is stealthed there is no way to even see it coming. No skill should do more than 8k at full max berserker. In comparison it take 400% more time to cast a churning earth that does 50% less damage with a class that has 50% less hp.

You can reflect it.

SoulSin.5682:

Xillllix.3485:

I once took at 14k Killshot, and now they are making that skill 40% faster (thanks to some twisted game intentional unbalancing). If a warrior is stealthed there is no way to even see it coming. No skill should do more than 8k at full max berserker. In comparison it take 400% more time to cast a churning earth that does 50% less damage with a class that has 50% less hp.

You can reflect it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Might

Ok, there are certain classes in this game you can be certain that they are new/inexperienced players.
There is also a class which is chosen by those who are experienced/good. And that class is thief.
So if anyone is new to this game and wonders about thieves they should ask an equally skilled friend to create a thief – I’m certain that the non thief will win. It takes skill to play thief; you don’t lose to thief, you lose to the player.

Jim Hunter.6821:

SoulSin.5682:

Xillllix.3485:

I once took at 14k Killshot, and now they are making that skill 40% faster (thanks to some twisted game intentional unbalancing). If a warrior is stealthed there is no way to even see it coming. No skill should do more than 8k at full max berserker. In comparison it take 400% more time to cast a churning earth that does 50% less damage with a class that has 50% less hp.

You can reflect it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Might

when you see a gold norn with a large charzooka aiming at you, expect a 15k killshot!

Jana.6831:

Ok, there are certain classes in this game you can be certain that they are new/inexperienced players.
There is also a class which is chosen by those who are experienced/good. And that class is thief.
So if anyone is new to this game and wonders about thieves they should ask an equally skilled friend to create a thief – I’m certain that the non thief will win. It takes skill to play thief; you don’t lose to thief, you lose to the player.

Problem to other class is how can thief kill and other instant kill damage class; engineer, elementalist kill so fast? The other class who don’t instant kill damage is the one using skill-skills; not other way around.

Why can they not use same instant kill damage and say, “take skill”? Take skill is to be challenge; what is challenge when a class instant kill with high damage? Should be take skills< with s= more skills…. so that why other class see thief, elementalist, ranger and engineer not take skill or use skill.

Other challenge class is skills< with s— using skills to play. Using skills to win= challenge, using skill or a skill to instant win= no challenge.

Example; 1 hour car race— cars are ready to race.. Annoucement “get ready… go”.. cars race than sudden.. see some cars go very fast and win in 1 second-10 seconds. How possible? Investigation; find cars that win race in 1 seconds-10 seconds have a super engine to win.

So did cars used skill or skills to win? Did cars was challenge for other cars in race? Point is, thief, elementalist and engineer class etc… are not create to be challenge like other class. They are not create to win with skill like other class. Today i see thief instant kill some class in seconds; did not give other class chance to challenge because all thief do was repeat same “skill” over and over to instant kill other class.

Last; only way to make instant kill damge class to use skills and be challenge is for arena net to recreate their class over; not nerf but recreate-redesign. Like example car; only way for super engine cars to be challenge and be challenge like other car is to take remake car all over because other car part help super engine. Nerf thief, engineer and elementalist is not enough; it is joke for class and other class who want challenge and fun.

Thief, elementalist and engineer are Super Class; No Competition, No Challenge, No Fun; that is all!!

Example; it is like rich blaming poor for not be rich. Rich have more and blame poor for have little. Rich say to poor, “learn to make more”, “it is your fault for not have more” but who control more? Rich.

If Thief, elementalist and engineer want continue blame other class for not using “skill” and be competition; they should ask arena net to delete other class and make guild wars 2 have only elementalist, thief and engineer; every clss will be same= same instant kill creation, same instant kill design, same instant high damage+same "skill"+Super Class= same challenge.

DarkSyze.8627:

Problem to other class is how can thief kill and other instant kill damage class; engineer, elementalist kill so fast? The other class who don’t instant kill damage is the one using skill-skills; not other way around.

Again, have you played glass builds? If anyone so much as sneezes on you, you’re dead. If a race track analogy can be applied, it’s more like shortening the track for both sides so that the race isn’t mind-numbingly drawn out.

It’s impossible to instantly down anyone with tanky gear, they’d have to sit there and eat the damage. If a player is prone to doing that then it doesn’t matter what build they play against, they will lose.

HtFde.3856:

That’s another part that’s often overlooked in the “thieves are op” discussion – the ability to grant that blasted stealth to other party members. The most fun I ever had were 2 thieves + 1 mesmer + 1 engi at Golanta. That group downed 12 people before they had to run (only to be back a few minutes later and farming everything but the main zerg which ran by them). Now do that with, say, 1 ranger, 1 necro and 2 guardians …

Not sure if you’re implying that comp should wreck a zerg or suggesting that it’s impossible… Because I’ve seen videos where TCHU does that (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFJ_ycKw76w and they’re not the only guild that does this). They regularly take apart small zergs with a 4-5 man comp like that (often 2 guardians, 1 necro, 1-2 of another class like warrior, ele, ranger) because they have huge AoE burst potential paired with high sustain.

Regarding thief burst damage/claims by OP and general complaints about thief/demands for thief nerfs, either you were not geared to take any damage whatsoever and one snuck up behind you/you were not paying full attention to your surroundings, or you were taken down by someone using something like my build.

I would suggest you look at the thief sub-forum or do some digging through my posts for my build. Yes, it hits hard. Actually, it’s the second hardest hitting build on the game (aside from burst damage ele which doesn’t really work in PvP environments though), but I’m going to state a fact in that the build is harder to play effectively than any other class or build in pretty much every scenario outside of getting the jump on a glassy opponent. This build also should be facing a 75%-90% stealth downtime; so it’s not like there isn’t a way to fight back/know where or when the next is attack is coming from.

Dire condition roaming generally speaking is far more low-risk : high reward than anything playing for burst damage. I’ve had a lot of people ask me in-game and on the boards about my build, many of which moving from P/D conditions, and most of them either do not succeed and revert back to P/D conditions because it’s too hard, or change their class altogether because of the sheer difficulty and lack of durability in anything but assassinations.

I’ve had help requests ranging in probably the hundreds of people now, and I can safely say I can count those who have stuck with the build/play it well on my fingers alone.

At least the WvW community can agree on #thiefscum

AnniMira.2506:

To me WvW is too often instant “Game Over!”. E.g., just before posting this, a thief got 95% of my health with one hit. I had been 3 minutes in WvW. I rather would like to play the game longer.

Classes should be modified so that nobody can do instakills. Longer fights. Longer gameplay.

Alternatively the game should have a difficulty level. Those who like instakills would play with level “hard” and we the rest would play with level “casual”. Perhaps in different WvW maps if the idea causes somebody to rage.

This is why Edge of the Mists exists.

/thread

Bertrand; So you say tanky gear is answer for not instant kill? Do Super Class use tanky gear for not instant kill? No! So it is ok for them to not use tanky gear and wrong for other class to not use them? I find funny because like rich example; rich say to poor, “It is fault for not have more”? who control instant damage? Thief, Elementalist and Engineer.

Where in heavens name does Ele and Engi come into this debate?
Neither of them have significant “instakill” out of nowhere mechanics.
Rangers and Mesmers do have this mechanic but no mention? LOL

Clearly the people QQing here about these “SUPER DUPER” classes have a L2P issue.

FYI, there have had been successive nerfs to the thief and I find them balance, if not under powered for the role they play in WvW.

Learn to deal damage with a build that can not just be blasted down.
Learn to MITIGATE damage via SO many ways that the game provides.
Learn to REACT to your opponent.

I laugh at thieves. They engage out of invis, I hit back, they run away or DIE.
They are an extremely predictable class since their weapons will tell you EXACTLY how they will react to what.

DarkSyze.8627:

Bertrand; So you say tanky gear is answer for not instant kill? Do Super Class use tanky gear for not instant kill? No! So it is ok for them to not use tanky gear and wrong for other class to not use them? I find funny because like rich example; rich say to poor, “It is fault for not have more”? who control instant damage? Thief, Elementalist and Engineer.

1 more thing JUST for you.

MOST WvW roaming builds are EXACTLY that, OFFTANKY.
Meaning they have 1 or sometimes even 2 of their stats are either vitality or toughness or BOTH.

I run Rabid gear on my engi at the moment and alternate it with Celestial gear, which both have SIGNIFICANT tanky stats.
With these stats I and pretty much any regular roamer is fully capable of stomping newbies to WvW in seconds.
That is just the nature of any form of Player to Player fighting. Do not go to WvW if it bothers you.

DarkSyze.8627:

Bertrand; So you say tanky gear is answer for not instant kill? Do Super Class use tanky gear for not instant kill? No! So it is ok for them to not use tanky gear and wrong for other class to not use them? I find funny because like rich example; rich say to poor, “It is fault for not have more”? who control instant damage? Thief, Elementalist and Engineer.

There is no “super class”, there is only your personal inability to handle a glass cannon build. You should really learn to accept some responsibility here.

No, some do not use tanky gear, and they can die just as fast as you. Any profession can make a very quick killing glass cannon. It is about builds, not professions.

Your analogy is horrible in my opinion, this is nothing like comparing a wealthy person to a poor person.

You should either gear for more defense, or trait for more defense. Otherwise, you get a build with little defense, and hence, your problem.

coglin.1867:

DarkSyze.8627:

Bertrand; So you say tanky gear is answer for not instant kill? Do Super Class use tanky gear for not instant kill? No! So it is ok for them to not use tanky gear and wrong for other class to not use them? I find funny because like rich example; rich say to poor, “It is fault for not have more”? who control instant damage? Thief, Elementalist and Engineer.

There is no “super class”, there is only your personal inability to handle a glass cannon build. You should really learn to accept some responsibility here.

No, some do not use tanky gear, and they can die just as fast as you. Any profession can make a very quick killing glass cannon. It is about builds, not professions.

Your analogy is horrible in my opinion, this is nothing like comparing a wealthy person to a poor person.

You should either gear for more defense, or trait for more defense. Otherwise, you get a build with little defense, and hence, your problem.

Or build and trait for more offense and learn to outplay your opponent. Either way there is no instant win super profession, there are simply builds that counter yours and players with different levels of skill.

DarkSyze.8627:

Bertrand; So you say tanky gear is answer for not instant kill? Do Super Class use tanky gear for not instant kill? No! So it is ok for them to not use tanky gear and wrong for other class to not use them? I find funny because like rich example; rich say to poor, “It is fault for not have more”? who control instant damage? Thief, Elementalist and Engineer.

Knowledge of different classes, anticipation, and quick responses are the answer for not being instantly killed. Since you can’t seem to handle that, I recommend running something tankier. When you play tanky, you aren’t punished as severely for your mistakes as when playing something glassy.

Unlike the rich vs. poor argument, you can actually try out being a so-called “Super Class”. Tell me how playing a glass cannon build as thief, engi, or ele works out for you.

coglin.1867:

DarkSyze.8627:

Bertrand; So you say tanky gear is answer for not instant kill? Do Super Class use tanky gear for not instant kill? No! So it is ok for them to not use tanky gear and wrong for other class to not use them? I find funny because like rich example; rich say to poor, “It is fault for not have more”? who control instant damage? Thief, Elementalist and Engineer.

There is no “super class”, there is only your personal inability to handle a glass cannon build. You should really learn to accept some responsibility here.

No, some do not use tanky gear, and they can die just as fast as you. Any profession can make a very quick killing glass cannon. It is about builds, not professions.

Your analogy is horrible in my opinion, this is nothing like comparing a wealthy person to a poor person.

You should either gear for more defense, or trait for more defense. Otherwise, you get a build with little defense, and hence, your problem.

Thief Traits http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_traits

Shadow Arts

1. 10 stealth efect. < source of many stealth; why so many?

Acrobatics

1. 3 Dodging efect
2. 2 Swiftness effect

Trickery < source of Instant High Damage

1. 6 stealing effect
2. 4 increase effect

Elementalist Traits http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_elementalist_traits

Fire Magic; <source of high damage 1

1. 4Damage effect
2. 4 Burn effect
3. 2 might effect

Aire Magic <source of high damage 2

1. 3 Gain effect
2. 2 Grant effect
3, 2 Reduce effect
4. Critical effect

Earth Magic

1. 5 Gain effect
2. 3 Damage effect
3. 2 Reduce Effect
4. 4 Condition effect

Water Magic <sourse of high defense

1. 3 Heal Effect
2. 2 Damage Effect
3. 3 Reduce Effect
4.2 Remove Effect
5. 3 Regeneration Effect

Arecane Magic

1. 4 Gain Effect
2. 2 Critic Effect
3. 2 Condition Effect

Engineer http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_engineer_traits

Explosive;

1. 2 Gain Effect
2. 3 Condition Effect

Fire Arms; <source of high damage

1. 6 Critic Effect
2. 3 Damage Effect

Inventions;

1. 5 Gain Effect

Alchemy;

1. 2 Gain Effect
2. 3 Damage Effect
3. 4 Condtion Effect

Tools;

1. 2 Reduce Effect
2. 4 Condition Effect

No Super Class? take look! why not give same to other class?

I have leveled every profession to 80 in WvW, and play them regularly depending on my need and my mood.

All your listing is a bunch of traits in which I can offer a comparative list on every profession. Your list means absolutely nothing.

Please, link what build your running so we can help you. You have refused to do so thus far, if you really want help, stop complaining about what everyone is pointing out as irrelevant, and open yourself up to assistance. As of now, it seems more as if you are here to pointlessly complain and cry nerf, and not really make any positive changes and learn.

Yep, Super Classes also have infinite trait points!

Look, you can either spend all your time crying that certain classes are broken (you’re wrong, but it’s impossible to convince you otherwise because you’re a selective reader and won’t acknowledge legitimate counterpoints), or you can actually learn how to play against those classes. Plenty of people would be happy to offer you advice, if you’d just take it.

THINK ABOUT IT WE ARE OFFERING YOU A WAY TO PLAY YOUR CLASS LIKE A SUPER CLASS AND BEAT ALL THE OTHER SUPER CLASSES

DarkSyze.8627:

No Super Class? take look! why not give same to other class?

This is just… Wow… I do not know how to express myself here………

xihorus.2804:

In WvW I hate it when….

….I am on my warrior who only has melee weapons and a ranged class attacks me. All ranged weapons should be disabled when a ranged class initiates a fight with me.

….I am roaming on my thief and am attacked by three people at once. Two of them should be automatically disconnected at the start of the fight to make it more even.

….I am on my support guardian and the enemy stops focusing me and switches to my teammates instead because of my high defenses. The game should force enemies to be only able to attack me.

….I am on my elementalist and enemies don’t stand in my meteor shower after I cast. The game should force enemies to stand in the red circle and soak up the damage, like in PvE.

….I am on the WvW forums listening to people complain about stealth mechanics, because they haven’t spent enough time in WvW to learn how to deal with them.

DUDE I THINK I JUST DIED FROM LAUGHING SO HARD… Handled (MFer)

HAPPIETHYME

OP: Go 5/6/0/0/3 build with all zerker and signet in WvW. Now come and tell me it is over powered. That build is literally the only build available that can effectively kill anyone in one single combo. But what happens if the target has a stun break and can evade the burst? The poor thief is left dead a few seconds later.

More on topic: People have yet to understand how to counter thieves? We are over two years into this game, and people are still complaining about getting ganked by a roaming thief that is built for duels, while you are built for team fights and zergs….

I have all professions at lvl 80 and exotic geared (haven’t bothered with full ascended because I mainly play sPvP). When I meet a thief in wvw I school that poor thing. With. Every. Single. Profession. How you say? I know the thief. I know how he thinks, what defensive utilities he have and how he’s positioning himself. I just act on instinct and slay that poor man. If I fail to kill it and it run away – I technically won. I have time to retreat or group up with allies while that thief runs off in shame.

When I roam with my thief I am still baffled by the amount of people standing completely still when I go invisible. They literally just hand it over because they have no clue how I work. L2P is the main problem. Not the thief.

xihorus.2804:

In WvW I hate it when….

….I am on my warrior who only has melee weapons and a ranged class attacks me. All ranged weapons should be disabled when a ranged class initiates a fight with me.

….I am roaming on my thief and am attacked by three people at once. Two of them should be automatically disconnected at the start of the fight to make it more even.

….I am on my support guardian and the enemy stops focusing me and switches to my teammates instead because of my high defenses. The game should force enemies to be only able to attack me.

….I am on my elementalist and enemies don’t stand in my meteor shower after I cast. The game should force enemies to stand in the red circle and soak up the damage, like in PvE.

….I am on the WvW forums listening to people complain about stealth mechanics, because they haven’t spent enough time in WvW to learn how to deal with them.

lol… that’s too funny…. yes it would be awesome if people would stand still and stay in my shower of arrows and wait while I pummel them with arrow rapid fire!

-The reason i am bumping this thread because this problem still is being ignored and is destroying wvw and pvp very fast. Also, for the new problem: Condition that is doing the same damage and need serious change fast-

(This thread include many other threads are genuine, honest and sad because many players continuously asking is for arena net to make wvw fights to be challenging, fun, with skill-play, using hard-work and hard-effort to rewarded for it, in result in longer fights. Why is that wrong? Is that wrong for any businesses for customers asking to spend more time in the company product and to have fun? Shouldn’t that be a good thing? )

This is the most question many players from mmo games i play always ask me, “Are the fights challenging”? “Are the fights long”? in wvw?

I always give the same answer, “no”. In the end, they ask me, “that’s it”? Yes, that’s it!!

This Power Creep including the new Condition Creep need serious change for Guild Wars 2 long term.

Players want to play a challenge, fun game. Not to play a game that destroy their fun, challenge and their preparation in 0> seconds. That Should Never Be Tolerated!

What is the point for preparing for combat than if you are never given a chance use strategies? What is the point for preparing for war than if you are never given a chance to use your skills? What is the point of preparing skills, builds, gears if you are never given a chance to use them?

I know Arena net will continue to ignore this but it is ok… in the end: this thread including many other threads will be evidence in history to why gw2 fail.

" Remember, the past reflects the present. The present reflects the future "

That is all.

What the hell are you playing, if you have proper build for wvw roaming (and no, a full zerk is not that unless playing thief or so), skills and such, you can stay alive for a pretty kitten long. Also wvw is not fair and is not supposed to be, play spvp if you want fair games.

What class/build/utilities do you run? You seem to scream no challenge blabla only and lots of people offered their help but you refuse to do something with that. Simply ask other people what build they run and be open for suggestions.

It’s hard to justify necroing a thread complaining about pre-patch thief.
Hijacker has l2p issues