Guild Wars 2

As far as I know, all MMO’s have stat/gear progression. How has, for example, WoW’s PvP been affected by it? Do new players get instantly killed by veteran players? And if so, how does the PvP remain fun?

Looking at how PvP has been affected by vertical progression in other MMO’s, how do you see vertical progression (stats/gear/WXP abilities) affecting WvW in the long run?
(Assuming there is a long run, and that leagues don’t completely kill it, of course.)

I know there has been complaints about this recently in GW2 with ascended weapons out now, but believe me as a MMO pvper for the last 14 years in numerous MMO’s (Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and World of Warcraft mainly). This game has done a great job of not letting gear progression dominate their PvP.

Really it’s been over a year…and weapon stats went up a couple points per stat. Hell if this was WoW you would have had a 150+ increase on weapon stats. So for those complaining about the measly boost ascended gives please stop and realize how good you really have it. IT IS a lot worse everywhere else.

Wraistlin.6072:

I know there has been complaints about this recently in GW2 with ascended weapons out now, but believe me as a MMO pvper for the last 14 years in numerous MMO’s (Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and World of Warcraft mainly). This game has done a great job of not letting gear progression dominate their PvP.

Really it’s been over a year…and weapon stats went up a couple points per stat. Hell if this was WoW you would have had a 150+ increase on weapon stats. So for those complaining about the measly boost ascended gives please stop and realize how good you really have it. IT IS a lot worse everywhere else.

Still doesn’t make it acceptable.

The main difference is that in a game like WoW, the difference is so massive so that someone with lower tier gear CAN’T even defeat the other guy, unless the other guy is afk.

Excalibur.9748:

Wraistlin.6072:

I know there has been complaints about this recently in GW2 with ascended weapons out now, but believe me as a MMO pvper for the last 14 years in numerous MMO’s (Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and World of Warcraft mainly). This game has done a great job of not letting gear progression dominate their PvP.

Really it’s been over a year…and weapon stats went up a couple points per stat. Hell if this was WoW you would have had a 150+ increase on weapon stats. So for those complaining about the measly boost ascended gives please stop and realize how good you really have it. IT IS a lot worse everywhere else.

Still doesn’t make it acceptable.

So you would rather have no progression what so ever?

I do not have ascended weapons yet, and I run a D/D elementalist, which apparently the majority feels are weak to begin with, and I can still compete with guys rolling with ascended weapons. Any other MMO I would have no chance.

WvW gives players an actual end game objective. If we all used “balanced” stats with no player progression there would be no real investment in any of your toons. That’s how I see it at least. I love using my jacked stats lol.

lordkrall.7241:

The main difference is that in a game like WoW, the difference is so massive so that someone with lower tier gear CAN’T even defeat the other guy, unless the other guy is afk.

This is what I don’t get. How is it that PvP in WoW survives with this type of situation?

Wraistlin.6072:

So you would rather have no progression what so ever?

I do not have ascended weapons yet, and I run a D/D elementalist, which apparently the majority feels are weak to begin with, and I can still compete with guys rolling with ascended weapons. Any other MMO I would have no chance.

I would rather have no progression whatsoever.

Do you have Guard Leech and Applied Fortitude? With all these forms of vertical progression combined, the difference becomes quite significant.

Lord Kuru.3685:

lordkrall.7241:

The main difference is that in a game like WoW, the difference is so massive so that someone with lower tier gear CAN’T even defeat the other guy, unless the other guy is afk.

This is what I don’t get. How is it that PvP in WoW survives with this type of situation?

Because WoW started with a very different mind set. Any one that played in vanilla knows how hard it was to get gear and set up everyone to be very “hardcore” and time consuming. As time past it got more and more casual things became easier. GW2 doesn’t have that luxury, It started very casual, people had full exotics 1-2 weeks after release. The only way for GW2 to change is either give easy pointless gear progression or make it time consuming and harder. Problem is a vast majority will complain about things becoming harder. The mind sets between veteran WoW players and Gw2 players are much different.

That’s the way I see it at least. Anet made everyone feel entitled to easy content.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Wraistlin.6072:

So you would rather have no progression what so ever?

I do not have ascended weapons yet, and I run a D/D elementalist, which apparently the majority feels are weak to begin with, and I can still compete with guys rolling with ascended weapons. Any other MMO I would have no chance.

I would rather have no progression whatsoever.

Do you have Guard Leech and Applied Fortitude? With all these forms of vertical progression combined, the difference becomes quite significant.

In which aspect?
I came back after a 5 month break, no Ascended gear that matched my WvW build. WXP rank 1. I still managed to play and be competitive. Is the aspect of competitiveness comes from comapring identical builds and gear, but one person have a few more stat points? are both players equally skilled and it’s absolutely certain that the 100 extra power from Guard Leech is the reason why one won over the other. The negativity from every post on gear progression is similar to the one on SWTOR, they basically put into assumption that every player on side A has all the best gear (approximately 10% total better stats if you have full ascended), and every player on side B has the tier lower gear (aka the crappiest gear the game has to offer) and that basically everyone on side B is so much more skilled and the only reason they lose is because they don’t have the top gear like everyone else on the other team.

At this point 5/6 trinket slot is available to WvW. That leaves a weapons and a back piece, so no way are you even close to being 10% underpowered. Further more WvW is not a 1v1. No game will be even, GW2 is most evenly matched I’ve seen, if you know of another, then tell me and then go play that game.

Just because it is the most balanced so FAR to date… does not mean we should not always and continue to try and get more balance.

If you buy a car that gets only half the listed gas mileage, then buy another car that gets 3/4 of the listed gas mileage… you would STILL want that full gas mileage right?

Professor Sensei.2941:

WvW gives players an actual end game objective. If we all used “balanced” stats with no player progression there would be no real investment in any of your toons. That’s how I see it at least. I love using my jacked stats lol.

this is what is wrong with MMO players. Everyone treats it like a second job and thinks higher stats is necessary, when all it does is raise enemy levels to make it all pointless too.

All it does for PvP is ruin it

Wraistlin.6072:

Excalibur.9748:

Wraistlin.6072:

I know there has been complaints about this recently in GW2 with ascended weapons out now, but believe me as a MMO pvper for the last 14 years in numerous MMO’s (Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and World of Warcraft mainly). This game has done a great job of not letting gear progression dominate their PvP.

Really it’s been over a year…and weapon stats went up a couple points per stat. Hell if this was WoW you would have had a 150+ increase on weapon stats. So for those complaining about the measly boost ascended gives please stop and realize how good you really have it. IT IS a lot worse everywhere else.

Still doesn’t make it acceptable.

So you would rather have no progression what so ever?

I do not have ascended weapons yet, and I run a D/D elementalist, which apparently the majority feels are weak to begin with, and I can still compete with guys rolling with ascended weapons. Any other MMO I would have no chance.

Progression can occur, it can be horizontal progression versus vertical. Imagine for a moment if instead of new “numbers” for the gear, you crafted better skins. People seem to have this idea that if you can’t have more skill than the other person, you can have higher numbers. Even Anet has admitted this with the reference to how only spvp is balanced. I get it, I even accept it, what aggravates me though is when people who rely on those higher numbers refuse to admit it. Why not just say (and I’m not talking directly to the guy I quoted) “hey, yeah I’m not that great. I did however grind my butt off getting high end gear while you were working to get better. So sure I may win because of the numbers, it just means I put effort into the right choice”.

For anyone that says it’s a small increase, I dare you to say that when comparing the numbers. First off it’s a flat 5% increase to damage, AND a 5% increase to all stats. Except to things like crit damage, and then it’s over a 5% increase. Those bonus stats add to things like coefficients for skills, and most skills also take your weapon damage into the equation. Now this is ONLY for an ascended weapon. Comparing a person in just exotics versus ascended (amulet, rings, accessories, weapon) is a big difference. If you go lower than exotic the increase is much larger than people above would have anyone believe.

If anyone wants I will be happy to compare a set of rare, vs a set of exotic, vs a set of ascended to show you just how big the difference is.

Posting a link so people can see for themselves the differences.
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/

Just go there open up whatever class you are interested in. Set one up with exotic gear, then the other with ascended.

CrassBippy.4619:

Professor Sensei.2941:

WvW gives players an actual end game objective. If we all used “balanced” stats with no player progression there would be no real investment in any of your toons. That’s how I see it at least. I love using my jacked stats lol.

this is what is wrong with MMO players. Everyone treats it like a second job and thinks higher stats is necessary, when all it does is raise enemy levels to make it all pointless too.

All it does for PvP is ruin it

A million times this. I too have been playing Mmo’s since the days of UO and I know how bad it can be. Vertical progression is pointless. All it does is give workaholics and basement dwellers the chance to be better then everyone else for awhile by virtue of their mindless grinding. Certainly not by their skill or intelligent builds.

All we ask for is a skill based game, not a “how many hours can you invest into the game” based game.

As far as I care the golden age of this game came and went. Around the time of the Karka Queen, before ascended gear became omnipresent and no one had the wxp to gain guard buffs. When Karma was plentiful and exotic gear was cheap and easy to get. When people focused on their builds, their strategy, their outfit, and just generally logged on every day to score some kills. Every one was on a even footing and if you lost to someone, it was on you, not your or their gear/server buff/wxp traits.

Anet had a chance to capitalize on this time. They could have offered more stat combos, more skins, more skills, better traits, better balanced game play. They could have refined GW2’s game play to an elite tier, the kind of game play people talk about years later. But no, they decided to just add more barriers to entry. Like wxp, bloodlust, vertical progression and heavily gated ascended gear.

It’s just another wow clone now and it will go the way of every wow clone before it….

Zikory.6871:

Lord Kuru.3685:

lordkrall.7241:

The main difference is that in a game like WoW, the difference is so massive so that someone with lower tier gear CAN’T even defeat the other guy, unless the other guy is afk.

This is what I don’t get. How is it that PvP in WoW survives with this type of situation?

Because WoW started with a very different mind set. Any one that played in vanilla knows how hard it was to get gear and set up everyone to be very “hardcore” and time consuming. As time past it got more and more casual things became easier. GW2 doesn’t have that luxury, It started very casual, people had full exotics 1-2 weeks after release. The only way for GW2 to change is either give easy pointless gear progression or make it time consuming and harder. Problem is a vast majority will complain about things becoming harder. The mind sets between veteran WoW players and Gw2 players are much different.

That’s the way I see it at least. Anet made everyone feel entitled to easy content.

Well, farming is not hard. I’d agree if it was like Dark Souls: you’ll have a 100% chance to find most of the equipment. But you have to get there, by defeating hard bosses and stuff like that. Something you earn by overcoming a difficulty, not by doing clerk job for too much time.

Ostra.3927:

Just because it is the most balanced so FAR to date… does not mean we should not always and continue to try and get more balance.

If you buy a car that gets only half the listed gas mileage, then buy another car that gets 3/4 of the listed gas mileage… you would STILL want that full gas mileage right?

I completely agree, we shoould always push for improvements in every aspect of the game. But when 80%+ of the post on gear is basically screaming like it’s the worst system ever and starts cherry picking from other games to “prove” their points. It’s pretty lame. Gear right now doesn’t affect much unless you are literally 1v1 with the same exact builds, skill and communication still is king for wins. even in WoW a well played team can dominate much of the Arenas to get gear faster, none of those guys bother to complain or cried.

I’m not worried about Ascended, because I know eventually those gear will be implemented in WvW and a year down the road people will complain about lack of end game content.

CrassBippy.4619:

Professor Sensei.2941:

WvW gives players an actual end game objective. If we all used “balanced” stats with no player progression there would be no real investment in any of your toons. That’s how I see it at least. I love using my jacked stats lol.

this is what is wrong with MMO players. Everyone treats it like a second job and thinks higher stats is necessary, when all it does is raise enemy levels to make it all pointless too.

All it does for PvP is ruin it

+1

GW1 lasted a good, solid 6 years with activity in most PvP formats. At the rate things are going, I will be completely shocked if sPvP or WvW can be described as healthy on the 2 year anniversary of this game. It’s difficult to enjoy all your treadmill progression in an empty game.

I kinda, sorta had empty calorie type fun with crafting and hunting down gear for the first few months, but I finally realized that I was spending almost, if not more time out of WvW doing things that were increasingly laborious just to play. I would go months at a time in GW1 without stepping into PvE, or messing around with the gear game to enjoy ALL the PvP formats with any profession or build I wanted to. That was what made the game fun and created infinite replay value. This game has become a grindy mess like every other MMO, with no direction on top of that.

Have you tried to craft an ascended weapon from scratch? I mean starting at Zero weapon smithing. Its impossible to do in a reasonable time frame… say a month. It is a grind set up to do nothing but sell gems. Anet has lost all credibility in my books… what little they had left.