Guild Wars 2

Mikhael.2391:

1sec still feels like they ll be able to be quite some time in stealth. I would agree if they did not have the huge ammount of mobility they have already. Seems thiefs still want to stealth long enought to be able to fight while using stealth. Should be a getaway button or opening damage for the surprise atack nothing else.

Not really you have to take into account The duration of BP being only 4 sec, the cast time of HS being 3/4sec and all of this uses Initiative which is a highly Finite resource and each stealth application only being 3-4 secs total in duration. So if they have to wait 1 second in between each stack of stealth the thief will not be able to stack stealth using BP combo or Bound combo.

I think there should be some changes made with the entire profession.

1- Remove heartseeker from dagger 2
2-No stealth + traps cheese
3- Add an f3 button for stealth (as it is the bloody trademark of the profession) with an adjusted amount of duration/cd.
4-Remove too much invis stacking from mesmer. Thief should be the best one in stealth-ing.
5- Adjust the other utilities and damages accordingly, no power or condi creep.

Ta daaaa. No more problem. Now apply this kind of attitude to every other profession.

alain.1659:

I think there should be some changes made with the entire profession.

1- Remove heartseeker from dagger 2
2-No stealth + traps cheese
3- Add an f3 button for stealth (as it is the bloody trademark of the profession) with an adjusted amount of duration/cd.
4-Remove too much invis stacking from mesmer. Thief should be the best one in stealth-ing.
5- Adjust the other utilities and damages accordingly, no power or condi creep.

Ta daaaa. No more problem. Now apply this kind of attitude to every other profession.

That will never happen this late in the game

I’m not going through every response… but just wanted to say the vids were too long for me. I DID enjoy them, in fact, i give you props for using unique music in vid 1. I’ll watch more later, but was fun to see.

Thief high access to stealth is kinda the point. Ghost thief thread kinda gave that away… should we get rid of war access to weapons? Maybe remove swapping elements from eles? Who cares, just a game.

Thanks for sharing videos… nice break every now and then. You got a lot of patience too.

Offair.2563:

apharma.3741:

No guys, you have it all wrong, thief is a high skill floor ultra high skill ceiling class. What you see here isn’t a thief it’s…er…well you don’t see it.

Stealth is perfectly balanced and has plenty of counterplay, never mind that someone that hasn’t been lobotomised can still stack stealth by doing it away from people. Just stand in the red circles!

Thief has the lowest DPS and burst and everything with lowest survivability so it needs stealth.

Just cleanse and run away, it only kills bad players.

All this and more when “thief mains” see the thread.

That’s pretty much what teef mainers come and tell ya when you have valid concerns about broken kitten.

That’s pretty unfair considering the number of times the existence of permanent stealth uptime has been requested to be removed by the thief community at the expense of other improvements, and depending on the format, the validity of such arguments like damage and defense varies astronomically, and most suggestions to nerf the thief’s access to stealth made by others are typically heavy-handed, put nicely (like suggestions on removing the leap from HS altogether), so people get defensive, considering ANet’s track record with the profession and making totally unjustified changes to it (stealth attack ICD’s, condi buffs, support nerfs, daredevil buffs, core trait nerfs, etc.).

As I said above, I don’t think anyone with a reasonable understanding of the game admits that this build is fun or fair to play against. I don’t really think stealth itself needs a rework, rather I think the thief weapon skills do. OH pistol is invaluable while OH dagger is horrible, and the decision of the OH weapon changes the dual skill which often changes a whole build/style of play.

alain.1659:

I think there should be some changes made with the entire profession.

1- Remove heartseeker from dagger 2
2-No stealth + traps cheese
3- Add an f3 button for stealth (as it is the bloody trademark of the profession) with an adjusted amount of duration/cd.
4-Remove too much invis stacking from mesmer. Thief should be the best one in stealth-ing.
5- Adjust the other utilities and damages accordingly, no power or condi creep.

Ta daaaa. No more problem. Now apply this kind of attitude to every other profession.

You can’t just remove a dire skill from thief weapon without breaking the weapon and build entirely. HS is a great way to gain stealth and escape, not just gank a low health player. I agree thief should be the masters of stealth but a while back thief was the problem with permanent stealth with no consequence of being revealed.

I main a zerk thief and BP+HS is how I and many other thieves survive in WvW. It is the quickest stealth gain besides blinding powder. Dropping an SR in the middle of a duel is an instant DUH moment and reveals my location- I can only hope to walk to the edge of SR and hope I don’t get AoE bombed.
HS is vital to thief stealth play /escapes.
[I don’t know of an anet staffer that plays thief as a main, so they only read the complaints and compile them together match up the most alike ones and decide from there, is what it seems like ]- such as putting a CD on Backstab…. which is freaking stupid imo and was completely pointless and more of a punishment.

These vids come off more trollish and not so much as a play style.
I really don’t think the majority of the downed players are that experienced.
What leads me to believe that is how gullible they are and how dumbfounded they seem just standing around.

A one second cooldown on all stealth applications would fix a number of issues without destroying weapon sets. Removing finishers does not do that. Added to that it a fix that can be used for stacking from Bounding Dodger into smoke as well.

It still allows stealth gameplay and the ability to enter stealth when needed. One just can not stack up 5 consecutive heartseekers or multiple bounds in smoke to pile it on.

1 second is plenty. The current system allows a good player to stack from 4 to 5 stealths off one blinding powder. While 4 more frequent some can get 5 for some 20 seconds total stealth if traited SA minus the time it takes to do the leaps into the field.

With 1 second added the first stealth off a 4 second smoke field would get 4 seconds at a cost of about .75 for the HS. The second would cost 1.75 added on top of that for a total of 2.50 seconds. Another stealth application will push you to 3.50 seconds with the ICD and .75 to execute the HS meaning the smoke field now gone.

In other words rather then 4 to 5 one can now get 2 to 3 consecutive apps. That a significant difference.

Now in theory one can shoot another BP and try and get more stealth but you are then pushing INI limits and the total amount of time just stacking the stealth is not going to gain you much as the first ones you stacked start to run down.

This would also put the off hand x/d users in the thief profession on a more even footing when it comes to gaining stealth and in fact add a bit more skill to the use of the d/p set from a timing to maximize effects perspective.

We do not have to break weapon sets or traps to get there and I see few downsides outside those few d/p users that like to stack long lasting stealth.

There certainly might be something I overlooked and I am perfectly willing to accept that.

Mikhael.2391:

babazhook.6805:

Mikhael.2391:

I d suggest those traps do damage that reveals from stealth. Just a small amount of direct damage.

Bad idea. The trap will become unusable as it was before.

They had direct damage before and no thief used them because they could get the thief killed . In that respect they were very much like that forced “last refuge”.

The issue is not traps. There only one trap used in this build. Again I can lay down 11 confusion stacks from stealth without using a single trap.

But if a dh deals damage using trapper runes or ranger druid it breaks stealth aswell. No class should be able to do damage while in stealth i say that again.

You compare apples to oranges. A thief build relies on stealth for defenses, health gain, condition cleanses and to set up their number 1 stealth attacks. Stealth is an integral part of a thief build and an entire traitline and numerous skills and traits provide it.

The DH has advantages all of its own. Stealth is just a bonus they can garner through a set of runes. It not integral to their build.

babazhook.6805:

Mikhael.2391:

babazhook.6805:

Mikhael.2391:

I d suggest those traps do damage that reveals from stealth. Just a small amount of direct damage.

Bad idea. The trap will become unusable as it was before.

They had direct damage before and no thief used them because they could get the thief killed . In that respect they were very much like that forced “last refuge”.

The issue is not traps. There only one trap used in this build. Again I can lay down 11 confusion stacks from stealth without using a single trap.

But if a dh deals damage using trapper runes or ranger druid it breaks stealth aswell. No class should be able to do damage while in stealth i say that again.

You compare apples to oranges. A thief build relies on stealth for defenses, health gain, condition cleanses and to set up their number 1 stealth attacks. Stealth is an integral part of a thief build and an entire traitline and numerous skills and traits provide it.

The DH has advantages all of its own. Stealth is just a bonus they can garner through a set of runes. It not integral to their build.

But a thief can also run runes of the trapper and spam traps to get more stealth right?those traps dont deal damage.

Mikhael.2391:

1sec still feels like they ll be able to be quite some time in stealth.

That’s why the thieves in this thread advocate this solution.

Svarty.8019:

Mikhael.2391:

1sec still feels like they ll be able to be quite some time in stealth.

That’s why the thieves in this thread advocate this solution.

Apparently people can’t do simple math.

Black Powder duration 4 Seconds
Heartseeker 3/4 second cast time plus after cast

Now if stealth stacking has a 1 sec ICD it would stop stealth stacking and would only allow for 2 leaps through BP tops but hey I guess not every can figure that out which means the Thief will only get 4-5 seconds of stealth from those two leaps much wow such stacks many stealths…

Trapper runes don’t add that much to stealth time mainly due to the longer cooldowns on traps.

BP is expensive to cast. Reducing the effective number of times a thief can apply stealth means having to recast BP. This is inefficient and means the thief will be unable to maintain permanent stealth.

Thief core class is stealth based. Of course thieves are going to promote a change that doesn’t ignore this.

Mikhael.2391:

babazhook.6805:

Mikhael.2391:

babazhook.6805:

Mikhael.2391:

I d suggest those traps do damage that reveals from stealth. Just a small amount of direct damage.

Bad idea. The trap will become unusable as it was before.

They had direct damage before and no thief used them because they could get the thief killed . In that respect they were very much like that forced “last refuge”.

The issue is not traps. There only one trap used in this build. Again I can lay down 11 confusion stacks from stealth without using a single trap.

But if a dh deals damage using trapper runes or ranger druid it breaks stealth aswell. No class should be able to do damage while in stealth i say that again.

You compare apples to oranges. A thief build relies on stealth for defenses, health gain, condition cleanses and to set up their number 1 stealth attacks. Stealth is an integral part of a thief build and an entire traitline and numerous skills and traits provide it.

The DH has advantages all of its own. Stealth is just a bonus they can garner through a set of runes. It not integral to their build.

But a thief can also run runes of the trapper and spam traps to get more stealth right?those traps dont deal damage.

You can not “spam traps”. Only one trap does direct damage. Trip wire does no damage nor does it apply conditions. The ambush trap needs for the thief to come out of hiding and attack to trigger the summoned theif attack.

There is no damage component in shadowtrap. There no point in filling your utility bar with traps because only ONE does damage.

The only trap used by these builds is Needle trap and that is a 30 second cooldown base. in other words you get 2 seconds stealth every 30 seconds base or 3 seconds stealth every 24 seconds base if you trait for SA and deadly trapper with those runes.

You can of course trait trappers respite and gain a second neelde trap off the heal but this is still locked on that 30 second cooldown.

Now keep this in mind as well. Most ghost thieves take Hide in shadows and many on a lower cooldown as their heal. This in fact gives more stealth then a person using trappers rune and a trap (same cooldown longer stealth)

Under the current mechanics if a person uses HIS and wears trappers runes he will extend the stealth by stacking the trap stealth on top the HIS stealth. With my proposed changes this will no longer happen and that build will lose significant seconds of stealth.

babazhook.6805:

A one second cooldown on all stealth applications would fix…

Why would thief need any stealth stacking? Other than to support this troll build or to hide in keeps in WvW?

DeceiverX.8361:

Offair.2563:

apharma.3741:

No guys, you have it all wrong, thief is a high skill floor ultra high skill ceiling class. What you see here isn’t a thief it’s…er…well you don’t see it.

Stealth is perfectly balanced and has plenty of counterplay, never mind that someone that hasn’t been lobotomised can still stack stealth by doing it away from people. Just stand in the red circles!

Thief has the lowest DPS and burst and everything with lowest survivability so it needs stealth.

Just cleanse and run away, it only kills bad players.

All this and more when “thief mains” see the thread.

That’s pretty much what teef mainers come and tell ya when you have valid concerns about broken kitten.

That’s pretty unfair considering the number of times the existence of permanent stealth uptime has been requested to be removed by the thief community at the expense of other improvements, and depending on the format, the validity of such arguments like damage and defense varies astronomically, and most suggestions to nerf the thief’s access to stealth made by others are typically heavy-handed, put nicely (like suggestions on removing the leap from HS altogether), so people get defensive, considering ANet’s track record with the profession and making totally unjustified changes to it (stealth attack ICD’s, condi buffs, support nerfs, daredevil buffs, core trait nerfs, etc.).

As I said above, I don’t think anyone with a reasonable understanding of the game admits that this build is fun or fair to play against. I don’t really think stealth itself needs a rework, rather I think the thief weapon skills do. OH pistol is invaluable while OH dagger is horrible, and the decision of the OH weapon changes the dual skill which often changes a whole build/style of play.

I understand what you’re saying and we’ve all seen this style of needing across all classes. Heck the most recent SoI/quickness stacks being a great example of nerfs to things that were objectively too strong but handled in such a fashion it’s left everyone with a bad taste.

However ANets lousy record of offering alternatives for what is nerfed is still no excuse for things being too strong and staying that way.

An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)

1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.

2. Condition Damage.
It is too easy to stack a lot of conditions on people that do a lot of damage, for a whole range of classes. On top of this the standard condition clearing options take longer to get off cooldown vs the condition applying ones. So the game highly favours those using conditions.

However, I do find that many people complaining simply don’t have enough clears in their build and then start to complain about conditions being out of control.

This style of playing combines both of these topics into an annoying and possibly deadly combination. So even though I agree that this type of gameplay shouldn’t be available it is not so easy to fix.

Both these issues should be discussed, for all classes, not just for this particular build or class. Because imo this isn’t a thief problem, in fact I do believe this type of thief play is in use because the class lacks in other departments. But that is the thief in me speaking. :P

Hanza.6872:

An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)

1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.

2. Condition Damage.
It is too easy to stack a lot of conditions on people that do a lot of damage, for a whole range of classes. On top of this the standard condition clearing options take longer to get off cooldown vs the condition applying ones. So the game highly favours those using conditions.

However, I do find that many people complaining simply don’t have enough clears in their build and then start to complain about conditions being out of control.

This style of playing combines both of these topics into an annoying and possibly deadly combination. So even though I agree that this type of gameplay shouldn’t be available it is not so easy to fix.

Both these issues should be discussed, for all classes, not just for this particular build or class. Because imo this isn’t a thief problem, in fact I do believe this type of thief play is in use because the class lacks in other departments. But that is the thief in me speaking. :P

But even if someone equips reveals and cleansing condis, a good thief still has enought mobility to run away for 5sec and restart the atack while burning the cds on the reveals and condi clearing. It is as it is no point defending this anymore.

Mikhael.2391:

Hanza.6872:

An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)

1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.

2. Condition Damage.
It is too easy to stack a lot of conditions on people that do a lot of damage, for a whole range of classes. On top of this the standard condition clearing options take longer to get off cooldown vs the condition applying ones. So the game highly favours those using conditions.

However, I do find that many people complaining simply don’t have enough clears in their build and then start to complain about conditions being out of control.

This style of playing combines both of these topics into an annoying and possibly deadly combination. So even though I agree that this type of gameplay shouldn’t be available it is not so easy to fix.

Both these issues should be discussed, for all classes, not just for this particular build or class. Because imo this isn’t a thief problem, in fact I do believe this type of thief play is in use because the class lacks in other departments. But that is the thief in me speaking. :P

But even if someone equips reveals and cleansing condis, a good thief still has enought mobility to run away for 5sec and restart the atack while burning the cds on the reveals and condi clearing. It is as it is no point defending this anymore.

Hence why fixing stealth stacking fixes the main issues of this playstyle, but I guess you are just going to keep failing to understand that, the best way to prevent stealth stacking is the ICD since it stops a thief from stack any real amount of stealth.

Hanza.6872:

An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)

1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.

Mesmers don’t have much use for long duration stealth. Glass cannon base mesmer may need some seconds to recharge the mantras and wait for Mind Wrack/Prestige cooldown. Other mesmer builds just lose damage if hovering in stealth.

What thief build (other than this ghost) absolutely needs stealth stacking in combat?

Korgov.7645:

Hanza.6872:

An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)

1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.

Mesmers don’t have much use for long duration stealth. Glass cannon base mesmer may need some seconds to recharge the mantras and wait for Mind Wrack/Prestige cooldown. Other mesmer builds just lose damage if hovering in stealth.

What thief build (other than this ghost) absolutely needs stealth stacking in combat?

PU Mesmers require long duration Stealth since it effectively shortens all their Torch CDs which means more Condis and faster access to stealth so their condis can do all the work. No otherThief build uses stealth stacking unless escaping people or hiding from Zergs.

A lot of D/P thieves stack stealth a few times to get an advantage over other thieves that can’t or don’t stack enough stealth. First strike advantage essentially.

Other than that, staff daredevil is more about evade spam, and offhand dagger uses stealth very briefly, at most 4 seconds at a time (single stack from CnD). P/P builds, unless they are using BD in Daredevil, also don’t have good stealth stacking access.

Stealth stacking is very effective counter to other thieves because thieves do rely on targets for steal, in D/P for Shadowshot, and other targeted abilities like Unload/Sneak Attack on pistol(s). That is part of why some thieves really want to see stealth stacking nerfed because it would make fighting D/P thieves somewhat more balanced as a non-D/P thief. It might also open up other parts of the class to buffs if D/P weren’t such a preferred set for most thieves.

saerni.2584:

A lot of D/P thieves stack stealth a few times to get an advantage over other thieves that can’t or don’t stack enough stealth. First strike advantage essentially.

Other than that, staff daredevil is more about evade spam, and offhand dagger uses stealth very briefly, at most 4 seconds at a time (single stack from CnD). P/P builds, unless they are using BD in Daredevil, also don’t have good stealth stacking access.

Stealth stacking is very effective counter to other thieves because thieves do rely on targets for steal, in D/P for Shadowshot, and other targeted abilities like Unload/Sneak Attack on pistol(s). That is part of why some thieves really want to see stealth stacking nerfed because it would make fighting D/P thieves somewhat more balanced as a non-D/P thief. It might also open up other parts of the class to buffs if D/P weren’t such a preferred set for most thieves.

Just Curious, is the X/D your speaking of using SA? If not the. It would be 3 seconds.

Yeah, 3 without and 4 with. I think anyone who uses a lot of stealth attacks should use SA. More time to land hits, 50% movement speed in stealth, etc. That said, it is just 4 seconds as opposed to much longer on D/P stealth stacking.

I can pull marginally even if there are targets around for me to CnD off of. This includes the supply depot in camps in WvW, walls, gates, etc. Otherwise D/P stealth stacking puts me at a relative disadvantage.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Korgov.7645:

Mesmers don’t have much use for long duration stealth. Glass cannon base mesmer may need some seconds to recharge the mantras and wait for Mind Wrack/Prestige cooldown. Other mesmer builds just lose damage if hovering in stealth.

PU Mesmers require long duration Stealth since it effectively shortens all their Torch CDs which means more Condis and faster access to stealth so their condis can do all the work.

Extra 1.5 seconds off torch cooldowns in exhange for doing nothing for 1 second hardly justifies taking Prismatic Understanding trait. PU condi mesmers have upgraded to chronomancer condi which does not even take Chaos trait line. Besides PU delays the Prestige damage by 1.5 seconds.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Korgov.7645:

Hanza.6872:

An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)

1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.

Mesmers don’t have much use for long duration stealth. Glass cannon base mesmer may need some seconds to recharge the mantras and wait for Mind Wrack/Prestige cooldown. Other mesmer builds just lose damage if hovering in stealth.

What thief build (other than this ghost) absolutely needs stealth stacking in combat?

PU Mesmers require long duration Stealth since it effectively shortens all their Torch CDs which means more Condis and faster access to stealth so their condis can do all the work. No otherThief build uses stealth stacking unless escaping people or hiding from Zergs.

Not entirely true, it does reduce torch cool downs the longer you’re in stealth however torch itself is generally a bad offhand used mostly for its stealth. The conditions it applies, the way they get applied are pretty poor and the phantasm has one of the longest cool downs for mesmer for no reason at all when you consider it’s so bad it can’t hit dolyaks a lot.

Many mesmers spoke out against the trait that enabled this, the pledge, saying they wanted it changing as it promoted a bad play style of stealth camping. While some love their overpowered stuff stealth stacking on mesmer is as much a problem as on thief.

Whatever solution is come up with thief would need a large number of traits to go from “while in stealth” to “when entering stealth” and mesmers would need to see a sizable increase to their ability to pressure or avoid being hit between bursts with many weapon skills needing a full rework.

Honestly, the only mesmers is see using torch nowadays are power ones going for a burst (Similar to how a thief goes BP+HS unto steal and BS)… I don’t know why condi mesmer came in this discussion when Condi-Chronophatasma without Chaos is far more ridiculous and have nothing to do with stealth.

Let’s go back on the Ghost thief and stealth stacking, yes?

Korgov.7645:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Korgov.7645:

Mesmers don’t have much use for long duration stealth. Glass cannon base mesmer may need some seconds to recharge the mantras and wait for Mind Wrack/Prestige cooldown. Other mesmer builds just lose damage if hovering in stealth.

PU Mesmers require long duration Stealth since it effectively shortens all their Torch CDs which means more Condis and faster access to stealth so their condis can do all the work.

Extra 1.5 seconds off torch cooldowns in exhange for doing nothing for 1 second hardly justifies taking Prismatic Understanding trait. PU condi mesmers have upgraded to chronomancer condi which does not even take Chaos trait line. Besides PU delays the Prestige damage by 1.5 seconds.

They are very prevalent in WvW. You do see variants but it still doesn’t mean PU and stealth stacking isn’t needed/Used by them. I know with Chronomancer they don’t need to use it since they can reset their CDs and use Alacrity which fills similar roles of increasing stealth access

Jeknar.6184:

Honestly, the only mesmers is see using torch nowadays are power ones going for a burst (Similar to how a thief goes BP+HS unto steal and BS)… I don’t know why condi mesmer came in this discussion when Condi-Chronophatasma without Chaos is far more ridiculous and have nothing to do with stealth.

Let’s go back on the Ghost thief and stealth stacking, yes?

Well to be honest stealth stacking and the mechanic of stealth is very pertinent to the discussion as is classes balanced around stealth in general which includes non ghost thieves and mesmers. Additionally while condi mesmer isn’t quite as bad as the ghost thief it is still horrible for many to fight and drops in and out of stealth far too much.

I consider myself a pretty terrible WvW player. Anybody decent player watching me play would laugh. Despite this, I have no major concerns about this ghost thief build. I bet half the people who play WvW could not roll a thief and play the build skillfully enough to be effective and kill many people with it, certainly not as well as the OP uses it in these videos. On top of this, even bad WvW players like me should be able to at least clear condis and get away from a ghost thief. I only recall being killed by one of these on one occasion and that was in a 2-on-2 with the ghost thief laying on condis while his partner (a condi druid, IIRC) also attacked. I haven’t played as much WvW lately so maybe these thieves are all over the place right now. If so, maybe I’d change my mind, but I have not experienced that. Yes, the build is trolly and annoying, but people really should not be raising such a ruckus over it. Even if I got killed by one of these on occasion, so what? I get killed in WvW all the time. :-)

William Bradley Knight.2609:

I consider myself a pretty terrible WvW player. Anybody decent player watching me play would laugh. Despite this, I have no major concerns about this ghost thief build. I bet half the people who play WvW could not roll a thief and play the build skillfully enough to be effective and kill many people with it, certainly not as well as the OP uses it in these videos. On top of this, even bad WvW players like me should be able to at least clear condis and get away from a ghost thief. I only recall being killed by one of these on one occasion and that was in a 2-on-2 with the ghost thief laying on condis while his partner (a condi druid, IIRC) also attacked. I haven’t played as much WvW lately so maybe these thieves are all over the place right now. If so, maybe I’d change my mind, but I have not experienced that. Yes, the build is trolly and annoying, but people really should not be raising such a ruckus over it. Even if I got killed by one of these on occasion, so what? I get killed in WvW all the time. :-)

Lol what exactly do you find skillful about his play?
Drop 2 traps on a semi afk player, run away to stack stealth, rinse and repeat until they die, edit out all the footage where it doesn’t work.

The only thing I’ll give him props on is running sylvari so he can use the elite to counter reveal.

All damage application should proc reveal with the exception of traps. Pain Inverter, Rune condi application, Steal with confusion, etc should all pop a reveal and put a player into combat.

Skills and finishers should extend stealth 1s less if the player is already stealthed. Example: first leap finisher through Black Powder is 3s and the second would add 2s.

To counter these “nerfs” the ICD should be removed from stealth attacks.

Stealth should not stack at all. You get syealth for x time and thats it like regular games with stealth. Want more stealth? use the other abilitie that also gives stealth and wait for the mext cooldowns to get it back. This way no thief would ever get in and out of fights when they feel like it. If im a necro in wvw and a see a thief or warr or dh or any other class that has more mobility i either choose to fight or i choose to fight because theres no escaping as a necro. But also as many classes without stealth i wont be able to run in to a group of 2 to 4 or 5 and annoy them try to kill someone and then run away, sure you can say dh and warriors can do that but eventually cooldowns will kill them and cc. As thief with just a few stacking (not perma stealth) you can still do this due to best mobility in game and stealth and burst damage. What i would like to see is stealth being used as opening for surprise atack and another stealth to run away if things go south without getting back in and out as they please with 9 reliable dodges plus stealth plus cc.

Mikhael.2391:

Stealth should not stack at all. You get syealth for x time and thats it like regular games with stealth. Want more stealth? use the other abilitie that also gives stealth and wait for the mext cooldowns to get it back. This way no thief would ever get in and out of fights when they feel like it. If im a necro in wvw and a see a thief or warr or dh or any other class that has more mobility i either choose to fight or i choose to fight because theres no escaping as a necro. But also as many classes without stealth i wont be able to run in to a group of 2 to 4 or 5 and annoy them try to kill someone and then run away, sure you can say dh and warriors can do that but eventually cooldowns will kill them and cc. As thief with just a few stacking (not perma stealth) you can still do this due to best mobility in game and stealth and burst damage. What i would like to see is stealth being used as opening for surprise atack and another stealth to run away if things go south without getting back in and out as they please with 9 reliable dodges plus stealth plus cc.

Apparently you think that thieves have unlimited Initiative which they don’t you can’t stack stealth and have super high mobility, since both require a very huge amount of Initiative and subject to Weapon swap CDs. Thieves best mobility comes in the form of SB 5 a spammable 6 Initiative 900 range Shadowstep, guess what if he is doing that he isn’t stacking stealth, the main way Thieves abuse stealth Stacking is D/P with BP and HS which costs 8 Initiative total (so no spamming SB 5 for mobility going on) with multiple instances to interrupt them because precasts and after casts.

Also as stated before every other mmo has stealth that lasts indefinitely till canceled and does not have a 3-4 second base duration. Aso there is the revealed mechanic which locks Thieves out of stealth from anywhere from 3-30 seconds depending on how the thief is revealed, also stealth can only be stacked up to a maximum of 5 times at any given time.

Now if the games Stealth had a 1 sec ICD on stealth application then it completely neuters Stealth stacking all it takes is a little simple math comprehension and knowing the ways Thieves enter Stealth you would see that.

It seems like you just don’t know how to handle Thieves and they are a counter to Reapers/necro in general if played well so I can see why you are being a little salty, (every class in game has at least one very strong counter to them. )

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Apparently you think that thieves have unlimited Initiative which they don’t you can’t stack stealth and have super high mobility, since both require a very huge amount of Initiative and subject to Weapon swap CDs.

I agree with your post in principle but you left out skills and traits from the stacking. Thieves can indeed stack a significant amount of stealth and keep their mobility with stealth on steal, Blinding Powder and HiS added onto the init based versions.

If they also travel via staff rather than SB, each Vault gens endurance which feeds Bound allowing them to stack stealth on the move. Add on a signet along with Rejuvenation and thieves have high mobility and a solid stealth up time.

Straegen.2938:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Apparently you think that thieves have unlimited Initiative which they don’t you can’t stack stealth and have super high mobility, since both require a very huge amount of Initiative and subject to Weapon swap CDs.

I agree with your post in principle but you left out skills and traits from the stacking. Thieves can indeed stack a significant amount of stealth and keep their mobility with stealth on steal, Blinding Powder and HiS added onto the init based versions.

If they also travel via staff rather than SB, each Vault gens endurance which feeds Bound allowing them to stack stealth on the move. Add on a signet along with Rejuvenation and thieves have high mobility and a solid stealth up time.

Yes I was just fighting his argument of Omg Teefz so OP, with showing the blatant flaws and even with Bound there are big flaws most importantly the Aoe damage Bound has which can easily negate the stealth stacking/gained. And if they implemented the 1second ICD per application it would reduce those skills stacking effects even further especially since they have CDs to not allow spamming of stealth

Love it!

/10char

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Mikhael.2391:

Stealth should not stack at all. You get syealth for x time and thats it like regular games with stealth. Want more stealth? use the other abilitie that also gives stealth and wait for the mext cooldowns to get it back. This way no thief would ever get in and out of fights when they feel like it. If im a necro in wvw and a see a thief or warr or dh or any other class that has more mobility i either choose to fight or i choose to fight because theres no escaping as a necro. But also as many classes without stealth i wont be able to run in to a group of 2 to 4 or 5 and annoy them try to kill someone and then run away, sure you can say dh and warriors can do that but eventually cooldowns will kill them and cc. As thief with just a few stacking (not perma stealth) you can still do this due to best mobility in game and stealth and burst damage. What i would like to see is stealth being used as opening for surprise atack and another stealth to run away if things go south without getting back in and out as they please with 9 reliable dodges plus stealth plus cc.

Apparently you think that thieves have unlimited Initiative which they don’t you can’t stack stealth and have super high mobility, since both require a very huge amount of Initiative and subject to Weapon swap CDs. Thieves best mobility comes in the form of SB 5 a spammable 6 Initiative 900 range Shadowstep, guess what if he is doing that he isn’t stacking stealth, the main way Thieves abuse stealth Stacking is D/P with BP and HS which costs 8 Initiative total (so no spamming SB 5 for mobility going on) with multiple instances to interrupt them because precasts and after casts.

Also as stated before every other mmo has stealth that lasts indefinitely till canceled and does not have a 3-4 second base duration. Aso there is the revealed mechanic which locks Thieves out of stealth from anywhere from 3-30 seconds depending on how the thief is revealed, also stealth can only be stacked up to a maximum of 5 times at any given time.

Now if the games Stealth had a 1 sec ICD on stealth application then it completely neuters Stealth stacking all it takes is a little simple math comprehension and knowing the ways Thieves enter Stealth you would see that.

It seems like you just don’t know how to handle Thieves and they are a counter to Reapers/necro in general if played well so I can see why you are being a little salty, (every class in game has at least one very strong counter to them. )

If they ever change that ICD to 1sec and it works ill agree with you. I dont actually die that much to thiefs in wvw as a ppwer reaper mainly because they r bad. But the same happens in my main DH, till i find that one good thief that has mechanichs that allows him to burst down a dh trough exausting their cds. I ve tried duelling such good thiefs and it comes down to luck even with reveal trap. Ots so much easier to counter a DH as soon as u know wich weapons he s using.

Mikhael.2391:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Mikhael.2391:

Stealth should not stack at all. You get syealth for x time and thats it like regular games with stealth. Want more stealth? use the other abilitie that also gives stealth and wait for the mext cooldowns to get it back. This way no thief would ever get in and out of fights when they feel like it. If im a necro in wvw and a see a thief or warr or dh or any other class that has more mobility i either choose to fight or i choose to fight because theres no escaping as a necro. But also as many classes without stealth i wont be able to run in to a group of 2 to 4 or 5 and annoy them try to kill someone and then run away, sure you can say dh and warriors can do that but eventually cooldowns will kill them and cc. As thief with just a few stacking (not perma stealth) you can still do this due to best mobility in game and stealth and burst damage. What i would like to see is stealth being used as opening for surprise atack and another stealth to run away if things go south without getting back in and out as they please with 9 reliable dodges plus stealth plus cc.

Apparently you think that thieves have unlimited Initiative which they don’t you can’t stack stealth and have super high mobility, since both require a very huge amount of Initiative and subject to Weapon swap CDs. Thieves best mobility comes in the form of SB 5 a spammable 6 Initiative 900 range Shadowstep, guess what if he is doing that he isn’t stacking stealth, the main way Thieves abuse stealth Stacking is D/P with BP and HS which costs 8 Initiative total (so no spamming SB 5 for mobility going on) with multiple instances to interrupt them because precasts and after casts.

Also as stated before every other mmo has stealth that lasts indefinitely till canceled and does not have a 3-4 second base duration. Aso there is the revealed mechanic which locks Thieves out of stealth from anywhere from 3-30 seconds depending on how the thief is revealed, also stealth can only be stacked up to a maximum of 5 times at any given time.

Now if the games Stealth had a 1 sec ICD on stealth application then it completely neuters Stealth stacking all it takes is a little simple math comprehension and knowing the ways Thieves enter Stealth you would see that.

It seems like you just don’t know how to handle Thieves and they are a counter to Reapers/necro in general if played well so I can see why you are being a little salty, (every class in game has at least one very strong counter to them. )

If they ever change that ICD to 1sec and it works ill agree with you. I dont actually die that much to thiefs in wvw as a ppwer reaper mainly because they r bad. But the same happens in my main DH, till i find that one good thief that has mechanichs that allows him to burst down a dh trough exausting their cds. I ve tried duelling such good thiefs and it comes down to luck even with reveal trap. Ots so much easier to counter a DH as soon as u know wich weapons he s using.

Yeah right now the only problem with Stealth is how it is able to be stacked unchecked besides the 5 stack limit, it used to not have a limit a couple years ago which was even more broken. I am very confident that if they used a 1 second ICD on stealth applications that it would fix almost all issues with Stealth in this game. Especially with the low Cd reveals 6 out of 9 classes have 3 of those being Aoe non targeted.

apharma.3741:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Korgov.7645:

Hanza.6872:

An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)

1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.

Mesmers don’t have much use for long duration stealth. Glass cannon base mesmer may need some seconds to recharge the mantras and wait for Mind Wrack/Prestige cooldown. Other mesmer builds just lose damage if hovering in stealth.

What thief build (other than this ghost) absolutely needs stealth stacking in combat?

PU Mesmers require long duration Stealth since it effectively shortens all their Torch CDs which means more Condis and faster access to stealth so their condis can do all the work. No otherThief build uses stealth stacking unless escaping people or hiding from Zergs.

Not entirely true, it does reduce torch cool downs the longer you’re in stealth however torch itself is generally a bad offhand used mostly for its stealth. The conditions it applies, the way they get applied are pretty poor and the phantasm has one of the longest cool downs for mesmer for no reason at all when you consider it’s so bad it can’t hit dolyaks a lot.

Many mesmers spoke out against the trait that enabled this, the pledge, saying they wanted it changing as it promoted a bad play style of stealth camping. While some love their overpowered stuff stealth stacking on mesmer is as much a problem as on thief.

Whatever solution is come up with thief would need a large number of traits to go from “while in stealth” to “when entering stealth” and mesmers would need to see a sizable increase to their ability to pressure or avoid being hit between bursts with many weapon skills needing a full rework.

I’m not even saying the build (D/P) or stealth (mostly for D/P) don’t need nerfs/changes. I’m just saying that generalizing the thief community to those who defend these kinds of things is kind of rude, particularly when the subject is pertinent to something that the profession is so deeply entrenched in. Kinda like when non-mesmers ask for nerfs or changes to shatters, even if there can be argued reasons to change and tweak shatters to enable the mesmer more consistent use throughout the game (the discussion on subjects like innate weapon DPS/Shatter burst balance and clone/AI dependency issues, for example).

Unfortunately the sad truth is most of what is left of the thief community are those types of people who vehemently defend these kinds of builds thinking they’re fine. Though this seems to be the case with most professions as most people not aiming for maximum faceroll left with HoT.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Lol what exactly do you find skillful about his play?
Drop 2 traps on a semi afk player, run away to stack stealth, rinse and repeat until they die, edit out all the footage where it doesn’t work.

The only thing I’ll give him props on is running sylvari so he can use the elite to counter reveal.

It’s not that I find his play skillful, but more that there are a lot of really bad players in WvW. Of course he is doing this in T1, but still…look at how those players reacted to him. Or rather how they did not react.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Lol what exactly do you find skillful about his play?
Drop 2 traps on a semi afk player, run away to stack stealth, rinse and repeat until they die, edit out all the footage where it doesn’t work.

The only thing I’ll give him props on is running sylvari so he can use the elite to counter reveal.

It’s not that I find his play skillful, but more that there are a lot of really bad players in WvW. Of course he is doing this in T1, but still…look at how those players reacted to him. Or rather how they did not react.

Was thinking that as well. Most of them just stood there doing nothing competent. I’ve played this build a bit and it’s pretty effective for the most part. If you mess up you can get annihilated at times, but for the most part it is fun to troll with.

In my experience, competent players will know quickly how to fight this build, t1 zerglings will never have a chance as the video shows. Hence why the lower tiers are more fun IMO, better fights.

RodOfDeath.5247:

Hence why the lower tiers are more fun IMO, better fights.

There is quite a discussion in the canc… errrr… Alternative forums about Higher Tier players being more skilled than lower tier ones. Funny enough, the players that defend that are from the very server we see getting killed in these videos.

You find a lot of bad players in any tier.

And I disagree with Deceiver about all the good thieves leaving. I run into a number of decent and skilled thieves on a regular basis.

I think the ghost thief is a problem for most players who lack condition cleanse or who want to blame the ghost thief in 2 or 3 v 1 situations where the ghost thief helped push their hp low or immobilized them with a trap.

That said I think that stealth stacking permanently isn’t healthy as far as creating counterplay when a lot of skills require some target. Stealth is a strong target breaking tool but shouldn’t be used to permanently avoid being targeted. Stealth stacking limitations as described above might do a lot of good without overdoing it.

Pelto.9364:

BTW, playing commercial music as background music for video is not fair use. All movie makers pay royalties when they play commercial music.

The key is “non-profit”. Movie makes are making movies for profit. But I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know all the finer details. At least one of his vids is blocked in the US (rightfully or wrongfully).

“This video contains content from WMG, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.”

Regardless of the legal analysis, slapping on a fair use statement of any kind won’t be of much help.

Youtube lets copyright owners assert takedown claims automatically. This is done through the software that processes videos for Youtube. Youtube detects that xyz song, copyright held by A, is in your video. This lets A assert a claim to Youtube for infringement and they will mute the audio on behalf of A.

You are free at that time to assert fair use back to Youtube. This can get messy because the right holder can just send another takedown request to Youtube—which doesn’t have the time or manpower to check into it, so they will just reblock the video in that event.

At no time will a disclaimer in your video matter. It’s like those “I withdraw my consent for Facebook to do X” posts people were making on facebook a while back.

And people wonder why I use trickster and withdraw + another trick/stun breaker. You won’t die from this if you have reliable condi clears.

You see the condi on you. Get rid of it.

RodOfDeath.5247:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Lol what exactly do you find skillful about his play?
Drop 2 traps on a semi afk player, run away to stack stealth, rinse and repeat until they die, edit out all the footage where it doesn’t work.

The only thing I’ll give him props on is running sylvari so he can use the elite to counter reveal.

It’s not that I find his play skillful, but more that there are a lot of really bad players in WvW. Of course he is doing this in T1, but still…look at how those players reacted to him. Or rather how they did not react.

Was thinking that as well. Most of them just stood there doing nothing competent. I’ve played this build a bit and it’s pretty effective for the most part. If you mess up you can get annihilated at times, but for the most part it is fun to troll with.

In my experience, competent players will know quickly how to fight this build, t1 zerglings will never have a chance as the video shows. Hence why the lower tiers are more fun IMO, better fights.

Everyone knows that the legitimate claims to Mag having a particularly good small-scale playerbase generally speaking ended years ago, especially now that they’re bandwagoned by wannabes attracted to the glory of high KDR from other just as cancerous builds in massive gank groups that quite frankly carry the players.

In essence, Mag is kept up by its reputation alone and its playerbase being rewarded for trolling based on the mechanics of WvW.

There are some great players still in Mag, but like any T1 server, they’re in the minority.
And the respectable ones are fewer-found :P

DeceiverX.8361:

RodOfDeath.5247:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Lol what exactly do you find skillful about his play?
Drop 2 traps on a semi afk player, run away to stack stealth, rinse and repeat until they die, edit out all the footage where it doesn’t work.

The only thing I’ll give him props on is running sylvari so he can use the elite to counter reveal.

It’s not that I find his play skillful, but more that there are a lot of really bad players in WvW. Of course he is doing this in T1, but still…look at how those players reacted to him. Or rather how they did not react.

Was thinking that as well. Most of them just stood there doing nothing competent. I’ve played this build a bit and it’s pretty effective for the most part. If you mess up you can get annihilated at times, but for the most part it is fun to troll with.

In my experience, competent players will know quickly how to fight this build, t1 zerglings will never have a chance as the video shows. Hence why the lower tiers are more fun IMO, better fights.

Everyone knows that the legitimate claims to Mag having a particularly good small-scale playerbase generally speaking ended years ago, especially now that they’re bandwagoned by wannabes attracted to the glory of high KDR from other just as cancerous builds in massive gank groups that quite frankly carry the players.

In essence, Mag is kept up by its reputation alone and its playerbase being rewarded for trolling based on the mechanics of WvW.

There are some great players still in Mag, but like any T1 server, they’re in the minority.
And the respectable ones are fewer-found :P

Can’t argue with that, I was a little surprised last time my server was matched up with Mag. It was just one giant zerg after another and havoc crews were large, just wasn’t the Mag from the good ole days but hey, the game has changed so whatever.

I miss the 1v1 versus a mag player because I knew I’d get an epic fight, now it’s 1v5 with them and T1 can keep em, just another great server gone vanilla.

RodOfDeath.5247:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Lol what exactly do you find skillful about his play?
Drop 2 traps on a semi afk player, run away to stack stealth, rinse and repeat until they die, edit out all the footage where it doesn’t work.

The only thing I’ll give him props on is running sylvari so he can use the elite to counter reveal.

It’s not that I find his play skillful, but more that there are a lot of really bad players in WvW. Of course he is doing this in T1, but still…look at how those players reacted to him. Or rather how they did not react.

Was thinking that as well. Most of them just stood there doing nothing competent. I’ve played this build a bit and it’s pretty effective for the most part. If you mess up you can get annihilated at times, but for the most part it is fun to troll with.

In my experience, competent players will know quickly how to fight this build, t1 zerglings will never have a chance as the video shows. Hence why the lower tiers are more fun IMO, better fights.

That’s the beauty of video editing, you can pick and choose the fights that make you look good and leave out the rest.

I actually watched every one of the videos he posted (except the last because it was blocked for copyright kitten), because I ran into the op several times and he died or ran off. I didn’t see any of those fights pop up in the vids.
The majority of his targets were zerglings that rely on group cleanse, afk players, players trying to rez, harvest, etc. , or super low rank players. He omitted all of the fights against roamers with adequate cleanse.