Guild Wars 2

So anet are you ever going to fix this ghost thief crap you’ve created that made nabs spawn out of nowhere every time you fight people.

Because literally if you ever get to play a decent 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 a ghost thief will pop up and make it 3 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 if not worse and good luck putting you’re stealth disruptor kitten trap out there with that cast time.

If ANet do nerf ghost thief because of this post can we get a CS:S soundbite of “Counter-terrorists win”?

You guys mean trapper thief, right?

Jana.6831:

You guys mean trapper thief, right?

Kind of sounds like he means any thief lol.

I’d much rather have a ghost (trapper) thief +1 a fight than a power thief. All you have to do is have decent condi clear and keep moving and you can pretty much ignore them. A power thief can come in and wreck you if you are already low on health.

+1 in any fight, no matter the profession or build is pretty deadly, unless you’re running bunker, then you might have a chance.

I do agree though that they should remove rune of the trapper from the game.

Jana.6831:

+1 in any fight, no matter the profession or build is pretty deadly, unless you’re running bunker, then you might have a chance.

I do agree though that they should remove rune of the trapper from the game.

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

Power thief is fine they are totally cool man they are easy to read and not hard to counter in 1 vs x due to low health pool paired with a low toughness level in case they want to bring some real burst potential surely they can spam evades they have mobility but you’re going to be able to make em disengage away from you else if you’re half decent at playing this game they are going to get get instantly downed in a few moves, the ghost thief is just pure cancer added on top of the others damage with no real viable counter for such a situation as you’re unable to target the scrub ever and the kitten they put out is mostly going to be applied with no warning of a thief at all being present mostly as you have already used most of you’re cleansing.

Jim Hunter.6821:

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.

Adding a lot of good direct damage to trap would be a good way to go, on the other hand there is really no logical explanation as why we have these op runes that basically gives stealth to classes that shall not have it and makes classes that already has plenty of stealth get even more, not a single good player at any higher rate has used em it’s basically a troll spec that’s been working a bit over the top in WvW since release of the scrub runes.

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.

Tell me how adding direct damage to a trap will “destroy” thief.

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.

How would that destroy thief? What thief even uses traps unless they are going for a perma stealth build? All this would do is make (1 or possibly 2) thief traps function like every other trap. Hell they could even improve tripwire by giving it a nice damage spike.

Also, multiple professions use traps. If you are so worried about “destroying” professions you shouldn’t be recommending something that is going to needlessly harm multiple professions in order to fix a problem with 1 build.

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.

No, you have it wrong, 2 classes make use of this rune set with little to no problems, it’s the thief that’s the problem. You don’t nerf something that’s fine with everything but 1 class to achieve balance, you address the 1 outlying situation.

A simple change would be to add damage to the 2 traps he’s said. It doesn’t break the other 2 traps nor conflict with their intended use and it does allow some breaks in the stealth coverage of the thief. I say some, it just means they will be visible once in 30s or something.

The problem is perma stealth, notably on thief, I just hope they never add condition traps to mesmer as that would be as broken if they did no direct damage.

Of course other classes fully benefit of the rune and would furthermore benefit from it if thief the class was nerfed because of that rune.
If you add reveal on damage the dodge (caltrops) wouldn’t work anymore, traps wouldn’t work anymore and so on.

Is it really that bad that you guys have to take one for the team? “I want I want I want me me me me me!!”

Let’s remove the rune – wouldn’t be the first.

Counter Terrorist.7421:

Adding a lot of good direct damage to trap would be a good way to go, on the other hand there is really no logical explanation as why we have these op runes that basically gives stealth to classes that shall not have it and makes classes that already has plenty of stealth get even more, not a single good player at any higher rate has used em it’s basically a troll spec that’s been working a bit over the top in WvW since release of the scrub runes.

So many contradictions in this post…
Somehow the runes are OP although they are only good for trolling and no good player will use them lol.

Here’s a reason they should stay, for variety and fun. Not everything in the game has to be the uber best meta choice, the game is dying, one of the ways to keep it fun is to goof around on dumb builds.

Jana.6831:

Of course other classes fully benefit of the rune and would furthermore benefit from it if thief the class was nerfed because of that rune.
If you add reveal on damage the dodge (caltrops) wouldn’t work anymore, traps wouldn’t work anymore and so on.

Is it really that bad that you guys have to take one for the team? “I want I want I want me me me me me!!”

Let’s remove the rune – wouldn’t be the first.

Wtf are you talking about? I never said add reveal on damage, I said add direct damage (which already causes reveal)to 2 of the traps. That wouldn’t affect caltrops at all because caltrops isn’t a trap and only does condition damage.

@ Puck:
I was answering to three posts, wasn’t directed to you in particular and we’ve (all) had this discussion multiple times.

The problem with all of this is: Thief is built around stealth. We’re that squishy because of our stealth. I never used traps but I can imagine it would be very bad if a genuine trapper thief (without runes of the trapper) was revealed because someone triggered his traps. The same is with reveal skills which still needs to be adressed by anet as most of thief’s mechanics are tied to stealth.
Adding direct damage to traps would further nerf a class because of some stupid runes because rangers and guardians who’s mechanics aren’t tied to stealth want to keep running it – and I think that’s wrong.

D/P perma stealth build don´t need traps to perma stealth the problem is by traps make condi dmg without get out of stealth , not easy to balance

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.

How would that destroy thief? What thief even uses traps unless they are going for a perma stealth build? All this would do is make (1 or possibly 2) thief traps function like every other trap. Hell they could even improve tripwire by giving it a nice damage spike.

Also, multiple professions use traps. If you are so worried about “destroying” professions you shouldn’t be recommending something that is going to needlessly harm multiple professions in order to fix a problem with 1 build.

One thing all traps function completely differently, let’s take a look, Thief traps are Lines not circle have no direct damage on them ( Anet removed it because no thief would take them since it completely nullified Thieves main mechanic), only two cause damaging conditions all others are pure utility, 1 spawns Ai mobs, traps don’t persist and hit at most 1 target

DH traps large Aoe circles mostly add cc most have direct damage and persist.

Ranger are Condi based while having direct damage these ones apply more condies than any traps thieves have, smaller Aoe circle no utility traps, traps persist..

They should just remove the Runes from game be the easiest fix, or you just learn to walk away from the thief while having a Condi cleanse since they don’t apply much conditions….

The best trapper thief builds do not use Trapper runes. D/P with Bound allows for perma-stealth and opens up Plex runes which apply confusion without triggering reveal. More interesting is that these builds are centered around one trap so its hard to even call them trapper thieves.

Two of these builds together can wipe a small group and the build has high mobility so any reveals often fail to work.

It is a broke build as no build should be able to kill a player without leaving stealth.

Stealth is not thieves main mechanic (not all thief builds rely on stealth) and every thief should be able to handle a few seconds of revealed every now and then. And even though i wouldn’t call the “ghost thief” op, i think, being able to deal dmg while staying permanently stealth is terrible design and should be changed. And since it is an (trap) thief only issue, changes should affect only this build. Adding direct dmg to those traps and buffing them in some way (more dmg and/or utility), so a trap thief doesn’t rely on perma stealth, would be my solution.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Stealth is not thieves main mechanic (not all thief builds rely on stealth) and every thief should be able to handle a few seconds of revealed every now and then. And even though i wouldn’t call the “ghost thief” op, i think, being able to deal dmg while staying permanently stealth is terrible design and should be changed. And since it is an (trap) thief only issue, changes should affect only this build. Adding direct dmg to those traps and buffing them in some way (more dmg and/or utility), so a trap thief doesn’t rely on perma stealth, would be my solution.

Condi remov, regen, burst, stun is tied to stealth – that is true for all vanilla builds. You can bypass that when going daredevil but still a lot of the mechanics only work with stealth. Engi and ranger reveal are more than a few seconds and they can hit as hard as a thief and have (multiple) invulnerabilities – it was a very stupid move to bring that stuff into game.

ETA: No idea about rev reveal haven’t been hit by that for a while.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Stealth is not thieves main mechanic (not all thief builds rely on stealth) and every thief should be able to handle a few seconds of revealed every now and then. And even though i wouldn’t call the “ghost thief” op, i think, being able to deal dmg while staying permanently stealth is terrible design and should be changed. And since it is an (trap) thief only issue, changes should affect only this build. Adding direct dmg to those traps and buffing them in some way (more dmg and/or utility), so a trap thief doesn’t rely on perma stealth, would be my solution.

Really? Then why is the best thief weapon set also the one that utilizes the most stealth access, why do 3 out of 5 trait lines have stealth based traits, why is a whole Traitline dedicated to nothing but Stealth? Why are most of their sustain tied to stealth? now there is an Daredevil which is evade based but still D/P is used for all of the utility it provides on top of stealth since most builds besides gimmick builds like P/P unload spam, D/D DB spam and Staff Vault spam build rely on Stealth to be relevant.

So saying stealth is not one of Thieves main mechanics is very disingenuous, right now with Daredevil being one of the best options it removes SA from being chosen since Evades are better survivability than stealth.

And only bad players die to trapper thieves since they y have small Condi application that is nullified by a cleanse and walking away. Should it not exist yes but there are more cancerous builds from other professions out there, that actually kill a lot easier.

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.

So did you have the same feelings when Rangers used them?

They are already horribly nerfed since HOT came out and used in sPvP. What more do you honestly want? Oh yeah, throw them out. Personally, I agree with you since they are more or less neutered. However, once class found a use for them and of course the lag in the game isn’t helping any.

Fix lag, then see if you want them thrown out.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

+1 in any fight, no matter the profession or build is pretty deadly, unless you’re running bunker, then you might have a chance.

I do agree though that they should remove rune of the trapper from the game.

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

That would solve the whole issue and i am not a programmer, but am sure its done very quick.

Jana.6831:

Of course other classes fully benefit of the rune and would furthermore benefit from it if thief the class was nerfed because of that rune.
If you add reveal on damage the dodge (caltrops) wouldn’t work anymore, traps wouldn’t work anymore and so on.

Is it really that bad that you guys have to take one for the team? “I want I want I want me me me me me!!”

Let’s remove the rune – wouldn’t be the first.

What on earth are you going on about? Caltrops aren’t traps, thought you mained thief, how do you not even know this? We are talking 2 traps to add damage to, Needle trap and Tripwire, these are usually used to set up for a condi bomb in the build so it will allow a few seconds of being able to see and attack the thief if you’re ready for it.

This isn’t about taking one for the team, ganging up on thieves or anything else. This is about actually being able to see what is killing you. Stop letting your personal feelings get in the way of what is obviously something that shouldn’t be allowed.

Jana.6831:

Condi remov, regen, burst, stun is tied to stealth – that is true for all vanilla builds. You can bypass that when going daredevil but still a lot of the mechanics only work with stealth. Engi and ranger reveal are more than a few seconds and they can hit as hard as a thief and have (multiple) invulnerabilities – it was a very stupid move to bring that stuff into game.

ETA: No idea about rev reveal haven’t been hit by that for a while.

I never said, stealth is not important for many thief builds, but that doesn’t make it their main class mechanic. Even in the past not all strong thief builds were relying on stealth (old s/d for example – now daredevil has kinda replaced acro as non-stealth survival line).
And even stealth heavy builds shouldn’t have to stay in stealth permanently to be somewhat playable. Now i’m aware that adding direct dmg to traps would make trap thief even worse than it is now, that’s why i suggested buffs to traps in return. Trap thief doesn’t need any nerfs, just changes to the imo stupid design.

With “a few seconds of reveal” i was referring to the 3 seconds that would come from traps with added direct dmg, not to reveal skills from other classes (i wouldn’t call the 5/6 seconds from those skills an eternity though).

BlaqueFyre.5678:

So saying stealth is not one of Thieves main mechanics is very disingenuous, right now with Daredevil being one of the best options it removes SA from being chosen since Evades are better survivability than stealth.

There is a difference between the main mechanic and one of the mechanics. And as you even state yourself, meta daredevil relies more on evades (and blind/cc) than stealth. Of course stealth is still part of the build, but that doesn’t make it the most important part.

And yes, there are worse builds out there than trap thief, but we can still discuss about certain build designs that might be problematic, right? Btw, personally i can usually deal with trap thieves just fine, and i wasn’t suggesting straight nerfs, just changes, which might even end up as buffs, who knows?

Crapgame.6519:

So did you have the same feelings when Rangers used them?

They are already horribly nerfed since HOT came out and used in sPvP. What more do you honestly want? Oh yeah, throw them out. Personally, I agree with you since they are more or less neutered. However, once class found a use for them and of course the lag in the game isn’t helping any.

Fix lag, then see if you want them thrown out.

What are you talking about, thieves or rangers?

apharma.3741:

What on earth are you going on about? Caltrops aren’t traps, thought you mained thief, how do you not even know this? We are talking 2 traps to add damage to, Needle trap and Tripwire, these are usually used to set up for a condi bomb in the build so it will allow a few seconds of being able to see and attack the thief if you’re ready for it.

This isn’t about taking one for the team, ganging up on thieves or anything else. This is about actually being able to see what is killing you. Stop letting your personal feelings get in the way of what is obviously something that shouldn’t be allowed.

We already had that to excess – I’m a main thief but not a condi thief. You know next to nothing about thief, which you don’t have to but it would be cool if you’d (all of you) tried to understand where I’m coming from.
The reason why trapper thief works is the runes, removing the rune would solve the problem – so yeah remove it.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I never said, stealth is not important for many thief builds, but that doesn’t make it their main class mechanic. Even in the past not all strong thief builds were relying on stealth (old s/d for example – now daredevil has kinda replaced acro as non-stealth survival line).

That’s partly untrue – S/D has got CnD and a stun on Sword if stealthed – I said:

Jana.6831:

Condi remov, regen, burst, stun is tied to stealth – that is true for all vanilla builds. You can bypass that when going daredevil but still a lot of the mechanics only work with stealth.

The condi removal on other vanilla lines is subpar to what SA brings – the whole line that’s destroyed by reveal.
And not every thief can make tons of evades work and that’s the only other option to remove condis. Still, burst, stun and so on is tied to stealth even with daredevil. You can make stealthless builds “work” but still thief is built around stealth. And there is nothing on thief without stealth – you can play S/D without using CnD but your thief is weaker than it has to be (an example for a lot of mechanics, it’s not just S/D but every set).

I hope you guys get my point

And I honestly can’t remember when I saw the last trapper thief. That was a while ago. So maybe 1% of the remaining thieves are running it, but yeah, let’s nerf thief!

Trapper runes have little to do with a Ghost thief.

The runes provide 2 seconds of stealth on a 30 second cooldown. How the heck is that OP?

If you trait for respite and mastery you can get 4 seconds stealth on a 24 second cooldown.

The issue is NOT TRAPPERS runes. It is stealth stacking via DP using BP and HS.

A much more potent ghost thief would use Hide In shadows , traps with respite and Perplexity runes. They can maintain permanent stealth with DP. They can also use Torment or Balthzar again adding conditions every 15 seconds just by healing.

Now I can make a Ghost thief work using Perpexity runes, Tormenting runes , Balthazar runes, Trapper runes but can not make it work using s/d or p/p or SB or s/p. Wh ys ithat if the issue trapper runes?

Jana.6831:

That’s partly untrue – S/D has got CnD and a stun on Sword if stealthed – I said:

The condi removal on other vanilla lines is subpar to what SA brings – the whole line that’s destroyed by reveal.
And not every thief can make tons of evades work and that’s the only other option to remove condis. Still, burst, stun and so on is tied to stealth even with daredevil. You can make stealthless builds “work” but still thief is built around stealth. And there is nothing on thief without stealth – you can play S/D without using CnD but your thief is weaker than it has to be (an example for a lot of mechanics, it’s not just S/D but every set).

I hope you guys get my point

S/D has stealth access, yes, but it didn’t need that stealth to function, it was just something “nice to have”. Stealth is nice to have for any class/build. Similar is true for current D/P meta build. It needs stealth for backstab, but that’s all. And backstab is by far not as important as in the past for D/P. Shadowshot, Headshot (Pulmonary Impact) and autoattacks are often better options.

And again – even builds that rely more on stealth like SA builds shouldn’t need to sit in stealth permanently. Revealed is basically nothing but a short cooldown. If you are revealed and can’t clear condis because of it, it is like having condi remove skills on cd. Same for burst, cc and so on. It is not only revealed, that destroyed many thief builds (like your d/d build). It is not even the main issue.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

S/D has stealth access, yes, but it didn’t need that stealth to function, it was just something “nice to have”. Similar is true for current D/P meta build. It needs stealth for backstab, but that’s all. And backstab is by far not as important as in the past for D/P. Shadowshot, Headshot (Pulmonary Impact) and autoattacks are often better options.

And again – even builds that rely more on stealth like SA builds shouldn’t need to sit in stealth permanently. Revealed is basically nothing but a short cooldown. If you are revealed and can’t clear condis because of it, it is like having condi remove skills on cd. Same for burst, cc and so on. It is not only revealed, that destroyed many thief builds (like your d/d build). It is not even the main issue.

False D/P needs stealth to mitigate Single target damage by making the opponent drop target and reposition, D/P mostly doesn’t use Stealth for Backstab since the nerf to it and it not always landing, they use it as a defensive ability. And SA needs to sit int stealth at minimum 3 secs to clear a single Condi or to get a single heal/initiative tick, so to combat the Condi spam and to even benefit the thief they have to sit in there for anot 6 seconds.

Right now the builds that don’t need access to stealth are D/D Condi, P/P and Vault spam. D/P still relies on stealth a lot only bad thieves won’t try to utilize it, D/P uses the AA more than any other skill unless they know Shadowshot spam will win them the fight.

Stealth as a defensive tool to drop target/reposition applies to all classes, thats not a thief mechanic. Only additional benefits that thieves can gain from stealth are some kind of class mechanic. And just because SA is bad currently, doesn’t mean, revealed is the main issue. There are many reasons.
And again, revealed – be it from dmg dealt or from other classes skills – doesn’t make you unable to gain benefits from stealth in general – it just adds a short cooldown. Regardless of how strong or weak a build is – do you really think, dmg + perma stealth is good design?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Stealth as a defensive tool to drop target/reposition applies to all classes, thats not a thief mechanic. Only additional benefits that thieves can gain from stealth are some kind of class mechanic. And just because SA is bad currently, doesn’t mean, revealed is the main issue. There are many reasons.

Yes before Stealth gave better return on investment mainly the main mechanic only given to thieves called stealth attacks, now there is no reason to use Stealth attacks since they will most likely miss and it’s only feasible to use the 9 initiative to reposition and and drop target almost no other reason with the nerfs Thief Stealth has received since the games launch, and now other classes have just as easy access if not better in most cases.

And again back on topic Anet removed the damage from Thief traps since it worked against one of the classes main mechanics. It is even stated by the Devs in the patch note so traps do not reveal Thieves. Should perma stealth exist no I wholeheartedly agree but every class has a build that shouldn’t exist but they do this is just Thieves version and it is weaker than all the other cancerous builds and isn’t seen all that much.

So backstab works against thief mechanics? Stealth attacks work against thief mechanics?
I know, it was some sort of “fix” to make traps usable, but is it the only possible solution? I doubt it.

[…] and isn’t seen all that much.

That’s the point, right? :p

UmbraNoctis.1907:

So backstab works against thief mechanics? Stealth attacks work against thief mechanics?

Yes, actually. The only build backstab/stealth attacks was actually an import part of was power D/D, which is so worthless with the ICD on stealth attacks and re-changed BV + massive HoT defensive power creep that it’s effectively no longer functional. Weapon skills and the AA chain on D/P and other weapons out-damage backstab, and Daredevil pretty much invalidates the defensive gains from stealth since it’s just an objectively-improved SA.

As far as the condi trapper cancer build, It’s primarily offhand pistol stacking stealth (typically D/P, surprise surprise), however the traps are nothing to sneeze at considering DA enables so much more trap use via the needle trap on heal. You end up in situations where traps are being pushed out every few seconds as a result, with the target never breaking stealth.

ANet will not nerf its precious stealth-stacking D/P builds, though, since they even decided to give Daredevil a leap finisher on dodge for whatever stupid reason they thought of.

WvW needs three rune nerfs or more preferably outright removals:
Perplexity’s passive confusion
Durability – everything about it
Trapper – No stealth.

Stealth and superspeed together are more or less what break everything. I see little reason for thief traps to deal damage since the point is to stealth -> trap CC someone -> punish on power builds. Trapper runes kind of break this and reward more players for just camping stealth. The super-speed advantage is more potent and logical for trappers, anyways, as triggering a trap should provide the caster a mobility advantage in some way in most cases.

Jana.6831:

We already had that to excess – I’m a main thief but not a condi thief. You know next to nothing about thief, which you don’t have to but it would be cool if you’d (all of you) tried to understand where I’m coming from.
The reason why trapper thief works is the runes, removing the rune would solve the problem – so yeah remove it.

I main ele, I don’t play condi ele but I do at least know what every single skill and utility does, yes even earth shield which has little to no use at all for nearly every single game mode.

The reason condi trapper thief works at all is because you cannot see it in order to counter it, if you have decent condition cleansing or just enough and good reactions to clear the immobilise and stunbreak out of the caltrops burst they put down then it’s not a problem. The runes aren’t what gives the condi trapper thief ridiculous uptime of stealth either, anyone that had even spent 5 mins with a thief and the shadow arts line would know that. The problem is there being nothing that reveals the thief when it attacks and therefor it can stay stealthed the whole time.

Also I know a heck of a lot more about thief than you do going off your posts here.

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have little to do with a Ghost thief.

The runes provide 2 seconds of stealth on a 30 second cooldown. How the heck is that OP?

If you trait for respite and mastery you can get 4 seconds stealth on a 24 second cooldown.

The issue is NOT TRAPPERS runes. It is stealth stacking via DP using BP and HS.

A much more potent ghost thief would use Hide In shadows , traps with respite and Perplexity runes. They can maintain permanent stealth with DP. They can also use Torment or Balthzar again adding conditions every 15 seconds just by healing.

Now I can make a Ghost thief work using Perpexity runes, Tormenting runes , Balthazar runes, Trapper runes but can not make it work using s/d or p/p or SB or s/p. Wh ys ithat if the issue trapper runes?

^This
Removing trapper runes doesn’t get rid of the ghost thief, it’s pointless to debate that any further. The argument now is whether or not ghost thief should be allowed to exist.

I don’t personally care either way. The only time they become a threat is when they run in groups of 3 or more and even then they are a lot less of a threat than 3 power thieves coordinating their bursts.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jana.6831:

That’s partly untrue – S/D has got CnD and a stun on Sword if stealthed – I said:

you can play S/D without using CnD but your thief is weaker than it has to be

S/D has stealth access, yes, but it didn’t need that stealth to function, it was just something “nice to have”. Stealth is nice to have for any class/build. Similar is true for current D/P meta build. It needs stealth for backstab, but that’s all. And backstab is by far not as important as in the past for D/P. Shadowshot, Headshot (Pulmonary Impact) and autoattacks are often better options.

And again – even builds that rely more on stealth like SA builds shouldn’t need to sit in stealth permanently. Revealed is basically nothing but a short cooldown. If you are revealed and can’t clear condis because of it, it is like having condi remove skills on cd. Same for burst, cc and so on. It is not only revealed, that destroyed many thief builds (like your d/d build). It is not even the main issue.

Should I repeat myself once again? I only did it twice so far.
Saying “class x doesn’t need their skill” is like saying “ranger can well live without rapidfire, maul and some other skill”.
And the problem is that our survival is tied to stealth and reveal skills destroy that – I already explained that, please don’t make me repeat myself over and over again. It’s not thieves fault for using stealth it’s how the class is designed and reveal just shuts down a whole traitline – the line that is our most defensive line. And not every thief sits in stealth, only D/P and trapper rune thieves can do that.

Jim Hunter.6821:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have little to do with a Ghost thief.

The runes provide 2 seconds of stealth on a 30 second cooldown. How the heck is that OP?

If you trait for respite and mastery you can get 4 seconds stealth on a 24 second cooldown.

The issue is NOT TRAPPERS runes. It is stealth stacking via DP using BP and HS.

A much more potent ghost thief would use Hide In shadows , traps with respite and Perplexity runes. They can maintain permanent stealth with DP. They can also use Torment or Balthzar again adding conditions every 15 seconds just by healing.

Now I can make a Ghost thief work using Perpexity runes, Tormenting runes , Balthazar runes, Trapper runes but can not make it work using s/d or p/p or SB or s/p. Wh ys ithat if the issue trapper runes?

^This
Removing trapper runes doesn’t get rid of the ghost thief, it’s pointless to debate that any further. The argument now is whether or not ghost thief should be allowed to exist.

I don’t personally care either way. The only time they become a threat is when they run in groups of 3 or more and even then they are a lot less of a threat than 3 power thieves coordinating their bursts.

I don’t get why this whole game has to revolve around the “poor rangers”. Trapper thief wouldn’t exist without that rune, as simple as that. Ask any “ghost thief” about their build and they are using rune of the trapper.

apharma.3741:

I main ele, I don’t play condi ele but I do at least know what every single skill and utility does, yes even earth shield which has little to no use at all for nearly every single game mode.

Good for you, so? People also complained about caltrops not having direct damage – excuse me that I confused all the arguments brought up against thieves.

apharma.3741:

The reason condi trapper thief works at all is because you cannot see it in order to counter it, if you have decent condition cleansing or just enough and good reactions to clear the immobilise and stunbreak out of the caltrops burst they put down then it’s not a problem. The runes aren’t what gives the condi trapper thief ridiculous uptime of stealth either, anyone that had even spent 5 mins with a thief and the shadow arts line would know that. The problem is there being nothing that reveals the thief when it attacks and therefor it can stay stealthed the whole time.

The runes are what make this build possible, otherwise he wouldn’t have that much access to stealth – that’s my point. It’s no use to destroy an already bottom class even further because of a rune. If anet finally come around and have a clue what to do with thief and how to shift their survival away from stealth, then I don’t object against your suggestions. But the meta is still D/P the set that has got the most access to stealth – so seems as if stealth is still needed.

apharma.3741:

Also I know a heck of a lot more about thief than you do going off your posts here.

Dream on =)

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have little to do with a Ghost thief.

The runes provide 2 seconds of stealth on a 30 second cooldown. How the heck is that OP?

If you trait for respite and mastery you can get 4 seconds stealth on a 24 second cooldown.

The issue is NOT TRAPPERS runes. It is stealth stacking via DP using BP and HS.

A much more potent ghost thief would use Hide In shadows , traps with respite and Perplexity runes. They can maintain permanent stealth with DP. They can also use Torment or Balthzar again adding conditions every 15 seconds just by healing.

Now I can make a Ghost thief work using Perpexity runes, Tormenting runes , Balthazar runes, Trapper runes but can not make it work using s/d or p/p or SB or s/p. Wh ys ithat if the issue trapper runes?

^This
Removing trapper runes doesn’t get rid of the ghost thief, it’s pointless to debate that any further. The argument now is whether or not ghost thief should be allowed to exist.

I don’t personally care either way. The only time they become a threat is when they run in groups of 3 or more and even then they are a lot less of a threat than 3 power thieves coordinating their bursts.

I don’t get why this whole game has to revolve around the “poor rangers”. Trapper thief wouldn’t exist without that rune, as simple as that. Ask any “ghost thief” about their build and they are using rune of the trapper.

2 seconds stealth every 30 seconds does not make the build. I do not have to ask anyone. I can play a perma stealth thief now and have played it without trappers runes.

its a limited build with little real ability to do damage to people who know how to play.

D/P (or x/p bound) is the key and perpelxity/tormenting/balthazar do more damage.

Most ghost thieves trait one trap that being needle. tripwire does not do a lot, caltrops is used in most builds and is not a trap. traiting SA with some combo of SR BP and HIS and lower cooldown on deceptions will get more stealth than trapper runes.

It will still exist without trappers as it can be played without trappers.

Jana.6831:

Ask any “ghost thief” about their build and they are using rune of the trapper.

Errr, no.

Jana.6831:

And I honestly can’t remember when I saw the last trapper thief. That was a while ago. So maybe 1% of the remaining thieves are running it, but yeah, let’s nerf thief!

far shiverpeaks[EU], desolation[EU], gandara[EU] and Riveside[EU] have plenty of them.
just today i had the pleasure of being annoyed for at least 3 of them.

Obiously you don’t see them because they are perma-stealthed but they were there for sure.

That mechanic need to be addressed as a whole, all classes should have a mean to build to deal with stealth and permanent indivisibility while dealing damage should not be possible.

there are a lot of complains and videos im reddit and here, it’s time for Anet to take action.

Rotteny.8743:

Jana.6831:

Ask any “ghost thief” about their build and they are using rune of the trapper.

Errr, no.

Precisely that. Very much like the one I tested save I took torment over perplexity. The Asura trait also does not reveal when used.

babazhook.6805:

Rotteny.8743:

Jana.6831:

Ask any “ghost thief” about their build and they are using rune of the trapper.

Errr, no.

Precisely that. Very much like the one I tested save I took torment over perplexity. The Asura trait also does not reveal when used.

I took perplexity more for the confusion duration than for the procs itself… The only way to apply torment will be through the 30s CD heal, so I feel the torment duration is somewhat wasted. Perplexity benefit Pain Inverter, Bewildering Ambush and also the proc from the heal aswell the proc of when you get hit.

I also thought about Krait runes, as you can apply Basilisk Venom near your target to proc the (6), and their cooldowns are pretty close (Basi 40, Rune is 45) but Perplexity add the extra flavor of Cheddar.

Tormenting runes would be better on an actual P/D condi thief imo (not ghost).

Jim Hunter.6821:

babazhook.6805:

Trapper runes have little to do with a Ghost thief.

The runes provide 2 seconds of stealth on a 30 second cooldown. How the heck is that OP?

If you trait for respite and mastery you can get 4 seconds stealth on a 24 second cooldown.

The issue is NOT TRAPPERS runes. It is stealth stacking via DP using BP and HS.

A much more potent ghost thief would use Hide In shadows , traps with respite and Perplexity runes. They can maintain permanent stealth with DP. They can also use Torment or Balthzar again adding conditions every 15 seconds just by healing.

Now I can make a Ghost thief work using Perpexity runes, Tormenting runes , Balthazar runes, Trapper runes but can not make it work using s/d or p/p or SB or s/p. Wh ys ithat if the issue trapper runes?

^This
Removing trapper runes doesn’t get rid of the ghost thief, it’s pointless to debate that any further. The argument now is whether or not ghost thief should be allowed to exist.

I don’t personally care either way. The only time they become a threat is when they run in groups of 3 or more and even then they are a lot less of a threat than 3 power thieves coordinating their bursts.

Last I checked there was no cooldown, did they nerf that and no one updated the wiki?

Because thats always been what made it super OP.

I belive he meant the cd on the thief traps. All of them have 30s or more of cd.

anduriell.6280:

Obiously you don’t see them because they are perma-stealthed but they were there for sure.

Good argument – I usually run around completely oblivious to what killed me.

Good then let’s nerf torment, Dire, rune of perplexity and the duration of BP oh and also lets take rune of the trapper out of the game.

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

Also I know a heck of a lot more about thief than you do going off your posts here.

Dream on =)

I don’t have to, see below where you obviously have no clue what you’re talking about.

Jana.6831:

apharma.3741:

The reason condi trapper thief works at all is because you cannot see it in order to counter it, if you have decent condition cleansing or just enough and good reactions to clear the immobilise and stunbreak out of the caltrops burst they put down then it’s not a problem. The runes aren’t what gives the condi trapper thief ridiculous uptime of stealth either, anyone that had even spent 5 mins with a thief and the shadow arts line would know that. The problem is there being nothing that reveals the thief when it attacks and therefor it can stay stealthed the whole time.

The runes are what make this build possible, otherwise he wouldn’t have that much access to stealth – that’s my point. It’s no use to destroy an already bottom class even further because of a rune. If anet finally come around and have a clue what to do with thief and how to shift their survival away from stealth, then I don’t object against your suggestions. But the meta is still D/P the set that has got the most access to stealth – so seems as if stealth is still needed.

No, D/P and shadow arts are what give the build so much of it’s stealth, there’s a reason you don’t see them running D/D or P/D. They run D/P because it’s nearly permanent stealth with the SA line and the traps top them up to make it 100% stealth while not revealing them. The bolded part is especially funny, I guess you haven’t realised how many dodges daredevil actually gives and that many thieves dropped SA for daredevil as it gives a damage boost as well as near immunity to control conditions on top of better survivability.

People are asking that the ghost thief play by the rules every other class including other flavours of thief play by. You attack, you can be seen for a few seconds to allow countering, this is what the conversation is about, not nerfing thief because lol thief. It’s about principles, you should never be able to stay stealthed the whole time while attacking.

Come on, apharma, read at least what I wrote (it’s plenty in this thread, I admit it) before you try to insult me, ok?

ETA:

apharma.3741:

People are asking that the ghost thief play by the rules every other class including other flavours of thief play by. You attack, you can be seen for a few seconds to allow countering, this is what the conversation is about, not nerfing thief because lol thief. It’s about principles, you should never be able to stay stealthed the whole time while attacking.

If you know so much about thief and have read the stuff I wrote in this thread (although you didn’t have to cause you already knew) : Thief is build around stealth – no other class is whether or not they have access to stealth. So if the rules of other classes should apply to thief then I want to be entirely independend of stealth as well – and even DrD is better with stealth access (every weapon is better with stealth, S/, D/, P/, staff, SB).