Guild Wars 2

babazhook.6805:

The claim made that “stealth stacking” is not what leads to Ghost thief and that rather the ability to inflict damage while stealthed.

The statement is simply wrong.

There are four classes that have inherent access to stealth that being Thief. mesmer, Engineer and Ranger. ALL of them can to various degrees inflict damage while stealthed.

None of them but the thief can stack stealth so they remain stealthed in perpetuity.

(as example I can use sneak Gyro on engineer, load up rocket and flame turret and pain inverter while wearing balthazar runes. I can remain in stealth, apply confusion and fire while my turrets do damage. None of the attacks will break stealth )

The ability to inflict damage while stealthed has been with the game since launch. It not a “fundamental violation of game mechanics” as it has always been there and in fact saw more of it added.

Yet, you would have to stand close enough to apply the burn, and your turrets and gyro would be visible. So no, this is not the same thing.

And yes, removing the ability of Ghost thief to apply conditions while remaining stealthed would fix the problem.

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers could always apply damage even when stealthed via clones.

I keep seeing this used in these threads by ignorant people. There is a clear difference.

1. Those clones in a condi build don’t do much, they either shoot winds of chaos or backfire for a whopping 3s of burn every 6s.

2. Those clones are incredibly easy to kill and finally the biggest point…

3. You can actually see what is attacking you.

Don’t get me wrong I’m against stealth camping mesmers and I do appreciate a mesmer can shatter clones to apply conditions but it also reveals the mesmer.

This build is the definition of John Cena. O.O

“You can’t see me.” “Lets go thiefs!” “Thiefs suck!”

this is hilarious, they actually buffed this build in last patch…

thief of that type can be encounter with traps stealth or if you are engi and reverant.30 sec of not invis where he cant do anything. Also guardian and ranger with traps.

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

The claim made that “stealth stacking” is not what leads to Ghost thief and that rather the ability to inflict damage while stealthed.

The statement is simply wrong.

There are four classes that have inherent access to stealth that being Thief. mesmer, Engineer and Ranger. ALL of them can to various degrees inflict damage while stealthed.

None of them but the thief can stack stealth so they remain stealthed in perpetuity.

(as example I can use sneak Gyro on engineer, load up rocket and flame turret and pain inverter while wearing balthazar runes. I can remain in stealth, apply confusion and fire while my turrets do damage. None of the attacks will break stealth )

The ability to inflict damage while stealthed has been with the game since launch. It not a “fundamental violation of game mechanics” as it has always been there and in fact saw more of it added.

Yet, you would have to stand close enough to apply the burn, and your turrets and gyro would be visible. So no, this is not the same thing.

And yes, removing the ability of Ghost thief to apply conditions while remaining stealthed would fix the problem.

This is the same thing. It is applying damage while stealthed. The gyros are visible. So too are caltrops and uncatchable when used. The ONLY thing not visible is needle trap but those leave a puff of smoke when being laid.

That it easier to counter because the Gyro can be seen and attacked is an issue with how stealth applied not with an inability to apply damage while stealthed. Added to that the Engineer can if they so wish use Balthazar runes , perplexity runes , or krait runes or use pain inverter and apply those conditions while stealthed. Some combination of these are used by ghost thief to apply conditions.

An Engineer can use such traits in 5 of 5 positions while the Thief would us would have the advantage of one extra position by doubling up the heal with respite.

With both caltrops and uncatachable visible (as turrets and the gyro are) and with a trap damage being avoided by looking for that puff of smoke when laid and rolling through them , the target has counters.

The claim was made that only the thief could apply damage while stealthed and it simply a false claim. I never suggested that the Engineer build that does so is as effective , but then neither is the Ghost thief as effective as one that uses conditions and does not permastealth.

By the way there is also a skill called hidden thief which has existed since day one. This allows a Thief to apply both poison covered with weakness and Confusion on a steal while either maintining stealth (if one started in it) or immediately gaining stealth.

That there few to no complaints about this ability prior to the onset of this Ghost theif demonstrates clearly this not an issue with “applying conditions or damage while hidden”. The issue is one of poewer creep and the increase in the number of ways this can be done coupled with stealth stacking.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers could always apply damage even when stealthed via clones.

I keep seeing this used in these threads by ignorant people. There is a clear difference.

1. Those clones in a condi build don’t do much, they either shoot winds of chaos or backfire for a whopping 3s of burn every 6s.

2. Those clones are incredibly easy to kill and finally the biggest point…

3. You can actually see what is attacking you.

Don’t get me wrong I’m against stealth camping mesmers and I do appreciate a mesmer can shatter clones to apply conditions but it also reveals the mesmer.

Tht the build is not as effective is not material. I am pointing out that contrary to claims made, all classes that have inherent access to stealth can inflict damage while stealthed.

Caltrops fields are also visible , be they from uncatchable or from the skill itself.

The skills Pain inverter and the Runes that apply conditions from heal are not specific to the thief class both can apply conditions without a reveal. A mesmer can use them.
Using a heal wearing something like perplexity after stealthing via the prestige will apply that confusion to an enemy and keep the mesmer stealthed as would using pain inverter if so wished. (6 confusion applied while stealthed plus any gained via the RNG stack plus the burn on coming out of hiding all AOE)

I have already suggested means by which stealth stacking can be addrressed. I am simply against the suggestions made that “no other classes can apply damage while stealthed” thus it breaking some rules the persons making such claims made up for themself or that all damage applied via utility skills MUST reveal the thief.

The latter is an asinine idea which would make things like caltrops and uncatchable unusable. It would also make hidden thief useless as a trait one used by the thief to apply poison and or weakness while immediately gaining or maintaining stealth since day one.

Outside the difference that the thief by design is superior at stealth to the others mentioned and SHOULD be (one should no more ignore the fact a stealthed thief could be nearby waiting to spike damage you then one should ignore a mesmers clones) the only other real difference is traps and in particular needle trap.

Three professions have traps and all function differently. DH traps inflcit very high raw damage outright. Ranger traps are a combination of raw damage and Condition and thief traps a mixture with one all conditions, one utility with port for escape or attack setup, one a highly visible thief companian and one a knockdown.

Ranger and DH traps cover a much wider area and can strike more enemies at once. They are also more easily triggered and are persistent . Thief traps trigger once and are done making them much easier to avoid. The thief traps are not OP and when poison added to needle it not, as claimed “just buffing ghost thief”. It was buffing the trap which on its own was underwhelming in comaprative terms. The “buff to ghost thief” an indirect result.

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers could always apply damage even when stealthed via clones.

I keep seeing this used in these threads by ignorant people. There is a clear difference.

1. Those clones in a condi build don’t do much, they either shoot winds of chaos or backfire for a whopping 3s of burn every 6s.

2. Those clones are incredibly easy to kill and finally the biggest point…

3. You can actually see what is attacking you.

Don’t get me wrong I’m against stealth camping mesmers and I do appreciate a mesmer can shatter clones to apply conditions but it also reveals the mesmer.

…

I think facts alpharma pointed out are quite simple to understand. Yet it seems people cant comprehend it.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Mesmers could always apply damage even when stealthed via clones.

I keep seeing this used in these threads by ignorant people. There is a clear difference.

1. Those clones in a condi build don’t do much, they either shoot winds of chaos or backfire for a whopping 3s of burn every 6s.

2. Those clones are incredibly easy to kill and finally the biggest point…

3. You can actually see what is attacking you.

Don’t get me wrong I’m against stealth camping mesmers and I do appreciate a mesmer can shatter clones to apply conditions but it also reveals the mesmer.

Don’t bother. Some people refuse to admit that ghost thief is the only class that can deal damage without breaking stealth. Babazhook is one of them.

And @Babazhook – the illusions are the ones dealing damage, not the mesmer. As soon as the mesmer attacks you, it breaks stealth. And if any illusion is given stealth, as soon as it attacks you, it breaks stealth. Thief remains the only class that can deal damage without breaking stealth.

I think stealth is currently fine. Traps need damage adding for reveal as Ario.8964 suggested to stop ghost thief. For the permastealth, high evade d/p builds the amount of evades need reducing further from what was done in the balance patch.
I main various thief builds and have currently gone back to plain d/d thief as I just don’t like the play style of Daredevil and its evades.
I do have a condi Daredevil, but it uses no stealth or traps and it still feels OP just down to how much it can evade, its very easy to play. I’ve put a video on you tube that shows it in action and you will likely agree its OP should you watch it. (search condi thief no stealth)
Anyhow my point is, traps need reveal and daredevil evades need reducing further imho.

@TiNG – While adding direct damage to thief traps would solve the problem now, I think a better solution is to just make applying damaging conditions break stealth. This would also solve the current problem, but it would also prevent any similar problems from coming up in the future. I can easily see another elite spec getting some skills that don’t deal direct damage and can be traited to deal pretty high bleeds/confusion/burning which they could use from stealth without being revealed if ANet fixed the current problem by just applying direct damage to thief traps

babazhook.6805:

And that is exactly what i said. I said the issue is Perma stealth and stealth stacking. People are turning it into condition damage and the ability to apply conditions while stealthed.

A thief that remains in stealth is NOT as deadly as those others. This is a simple fact. That he can not be seens as he does this and can do this all through the battle is the issue. It is stealth stacking and it not so much they are OP as it is the frustration faced by other classes that never see them.

As I suggested in another post. A Person can face a build that kills him 100 times in a day wherein he does not kill it once and not be as upset just because he THINKS he had a chance. A person can be killed once by a Ghost theif and immediately claim it because the build OP.

You bring in ether bolt and the like? What the is the point of that? The Ghost Thief does not use any of his weapons to attack because doing so would reveal him. I have already GIVEN examples of other classes being able to use UTILITY skills while stealthed that do damage that does not reveal them and you just ignored it.

The thing is they can kill ppl now with the buffs to traps and caltraps. Even the all in condi clear builds have a hard time vs them only the near perma resistances builds can deal with them and that simply because resistances at a boon type is significantly stronger then blunt uncontrollable condi clear.

Nerf stealth stacking, problem solved. Leave traps alone because you would ruin an entire set of legit builds just to get at Ghost Thieves.

Honestly, everyone is talking past one another here. People are acting like their way is the only way to nerf ghost thieves. All baba did was try to point out how heavy handed the suggestions are and to point out the most limited nerf needed to achieve the goal.

Only ghost thieves need to perma stealth stack via D/P. Get rid of that ability and you don’t touch any other builds. The traps aren’t OP, so don’t touch them, simple.

saerni.2584:

Nerf stealth stacking, problem solved. Leave traps alone because you would ruin an entire set of legit builds just to get at Ghost Thieves.

Honestly, everyone is talking past one another here. People are acting like their way is the only way to nerf ghost thieves. All baba did was try to point out how heavy handed the suggestions are and to point out the most limited nerf needed to achieve the goal.

Only ghost thieves need to perma stealth stack via D/P. Get rid of that ability and you don’t touch any other builds. The traps aren’t OP, so don’t touch them, simple.

Its the only class that can do it though why not just add in good power dmg to the traps then you can see a trapper thf become a real power. Maybe more of an ambush thf.

Well, yes, you could buff thief traps in exchange for making them reveal. That is a larger game design change because they already removed the power damage component a while back to let these traps do that.

saerni.2584:

Nerf stealth stacking, problem solved. Leave traps alone because you would ruin an entire set of legit builds just to get at Ghost Thieves.

Honestly, everyone is talking past one another here. People are acting like their way is the only way to nerf ghost thieves. All baba did was try to point out how heavy handed the suggestions are and to point out the most limited nerf needed to achieve the goal.

Only ghost thieves need to perma stealth stack via D/P. Get rid of that ability and you don’t touch any other builds. The traps aren’t OP, so don’t touch them, simple.

Its not the only way to nerf ghost thieves, but it definitely is the most logical. Being in stealth to reposition, escape, or just take a breather and read your opponent is a major part of thieves core design.

Why are you so anti-stealth stacking?
I’m going to go out on a whim here and guess that your preferred build can’t stay in stealth as long as other thieves, and you often lose to other thieves 1v1, therefore you must call for a nerf to your personal counter so your preferred build gets more of an advantage in certain scenarios.

Turk.5460:

The range and frontal radius of HS is much bigger than you think it is. It doesn’t require a target to hit…and unless you start HS behind the target (not on top of them, as that will still hit them), you have a much higher chance of being revealed than not. The hit/damage isn’t at the end landing point only, if a target is anywhere between the start of HS and the end of HS, it will be hit.

I can HS 2+ times in a BP field with a player standing in it without triggering the hit. Takes a bit of practice to know where the true edge of the BP is, switch off auto target, zoom in and ground target. It gets significantly easier if the steal doesn’t proc any damage.

Turk.5460:

saerni.2584:

Nerf stealth stacking, problem solved. Leave traps alone because you would ruin an entire set of legit builds just to get at Ghost Thieves.

Honestly, everyone is talking past one another here. People are acting like their way is the only way to nerf ghost thieves. All baba did was try to point out how heavy handed the suggestions are and to point out the most limited nerf needed to achieve the goal.

Only ghost thieves need to perma stealth stack via D/P. Get rid of that ability and you don’t touch any other builds. The traps aren’t OP, so don’t touch them, simple.

Its not the only way to nerf ghost thieves, but it definitely is the most logical. Being in stealth to reposition, escape, or just take a breather and read your opponent is a major part of thieves core design.

Why are you so anti-stealth stacking?
I’m going to go out on a whim here and guess that your preferred build can’t stay in stealth as long as other thieves, and you often lose to other thieves 1v1, therefore you must call for a nerf to your personal counter so your preferred build gets more of an advantage in certain scenarios.

I actually didn’t call for removing stealth stacking I called for nerfing it. Slightly. So it doesn’t allow permanent stealth. I’m all for letting people get stealth for extended periods of time.

Was thinking about a ghost thief battle the other day and was reminded of this.. which led to the other…

Claim Made. Adding damage to traps and or removing trappers runes will eliminate the Ghost thief.

This is false. The build below uses neither traps or trappers runes, can permastealth and spike a 2 poison 11 confusion condition add coupled with the bleeds and cripples off Caltrops and Uncatchable.

Two thieves working in unision with this build can go without traps and remain stealthed at all times while doubling up on what listed above. It certainly not as efficient as build using Needle trap but it possible to maintain stealth without using traps and apply damage. (there no immob is the biggest issue )

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZQQJAoalsMhmnYlbw0Nw/EHtElOAOggzXGRaKybhbIIA-T1h0wA+U/xlegAPAgwKBBcCAIs/gTlfkCYRlVA-w

(Note perplexity now add confusion on heal)

Claim made (several times over ) No class but thieif can apply damage and remain in stealth.

False the build below can apply significant damage and not break stealth. Lay down the turrets and load up gyro. There are several variants whether one favors Condition , power or a combination. In this build I picked two sources of the Fire condition that can be applied . Note that flame turret can also give a smoke field. You can then detonate turrets to stack on more stealth via the blast finisher. You will not break stealth either on those blasts or when the turrets attack.

Given turrets are not affected by power of the host while the FIRE of Fire turret is you go all condi in gear.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQJAqanUUBVVhVWB2WBEqiFLjK8euuuSMZCgxjutj76G-TVhMQBeT9HAs/gz0D4OlfBUJIpAWUsF-w

babazhook.6805:

Claim made (several times over ) No class but thieif can apply damage and remain in stealth.

False the build below can apply significant damage and not break stealth. Lay down the turrets and load up gyro. There are several variants whether one favors Condition , power or a combination. In this build I picked two sources of the Fire condition that can be applied . Note that flame turret can also give a smoke field. You can then detonate turrets to stack on more stealth via the blast finisher. You will not break stealth either on those blasts or when the turrets attack.

Given turrets are not affected by power of the host while the FIRE of Fire turret is you go all condi in gear.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQJAqanUUBVVhVWB2WBEqiFLjK8euuuSMZCgxjutj76G-TVhMQBeT9HAs/gz0D4OlfBUJIpAWUsF-w

Really grasping at straws here, I thought it was made perfectly clear in one of my post but I guess it’s lost on you.

What is dealing damage to you can be seen at all times when it is attacking you. The engineer themselves cannot directly attack without revealing themselves. You do realise the turret detonations will reveal the scrapper and that the turrets are hilariously weak?

Can’t wait for the next “claim made” with some bizarre build.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Claim made (several times over ) No class but thieif can apply damage and remain in stealth.

False the build below can apply significant damage and not break stealth. Lay down the turrets and load up gyro. There are several variants whether one favors Condition , power or a combination. In this build I picked two sources of the Fire condition that can be applied . Note that flame turret can also give a smoke field. You can then detonate turrets to stack on more stealth via the blast finisher. You will not break stealth either on those blasts or when the turrets attack.

Given turrets are not affected by power of the host while the FIRE of Fire turret is you go all condi in gear.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQJAqanUUBVVhVWB2WBEqiFLjK8euuuSMZCgxjutj76G-TVhMQBeT9HAs/gz0D4OlfBUJIpAWUsF-w

Really grasping at straws here, I thought it was made perfectly clear in one of my post but I guess it’s lost on you.

What is dealing damage to you can be seen at all times when it is attacking you. The engineer themselves cannot directly attack without revealing themselves. You do realise the turret detonations will reveal the scrapper and that the turrets are hilariously weak?

Can’t wait for the next “claim made” with some bizarre build.

First the claim was made that only the theif can apply damage while remaining stealthed. It was made several times over and I did not state you made that claim. Why did you assume I was talking about you?

>>And @Babazhook – the illusions are the ones dealing damage, not the mesmer. As soon as the mesmer attacks you, it breaks stealth. And if any illusion is given stealth, as soon as it attacks you, it breaks stealth. Thief remains the only class that can deal damage without breaking stealth.

Read that last sentence.

As to damage detonating Turrets. No this does NOT reveal the scrapper.

And your other point that being “the engineer can not directly attack you without revealing himself” say what? Are you moving the goalposts again?

So if a TURRET is doing the damage it not the Engineer that is doing it?

Ok if a pet is doing the damge it not the Ranger that is doing it.

Ok so if a trap or caltrops is doing the damge it not the theif that is doing it.

Now to your point on “bizzare builds” I never suggested this build workable or shoul dbe used. I use it to make the point that the claim “only the thief can apply damage without breaking stealth” is false. I use it to point out the issue is perma stealth rather then a thing like a trap or like caltrops that can do damage while stealthed.

Maybe that the thief is better at it is because that is THEIR relam?

>>Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which makes them very hard to hit.

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Claim made (several times over ) No class but thieif can apply damage and remain in stealth.

False the build below can apply significant damage and not break stealth. Lay down the turrets and load up gyro. There are several variants whether one favors Condition , power or a combination. In this build I picked two sources of the Fire condition that can be applied . Note that flame turret can also give a smoke field. You can then detonate turrets to stack on more stealth via the blast finisher. You will not break stealth either on those blasts or when the turrets attack.

Given turrets are not affected by power of the host while the FIRE of Fire turret is you go all condi in gear.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQJAqanUUBVVhVWB2WBEqiFLjK8euuuSMZCgxjutj76G-TVhMQBeT9HAs/gz0D4OlfBUJIpAWUsF-w

Really grasping at straws here, I thought it was made perfectly clear in one of my post but I guess it’s lost on you.

What is dealing damage to you can be seen at all times when it is attacking you. The engineer themselves cannot directly attack without revealing themselves. You do realise the turret detonations will reveal the scrapper and that the turrets are hilariously weak?

Can’t wait for the next “claim made” with some bizarre build.

First the claim was made that only the theif can apply damage while remaining stealthed. It was made several times over and I did not state you made that claim. Why did you assume I was talking about you?

>>And @Babazhook – the illusions are the ones dealing damage, not the mesmer. As soon as the mesmer attacks you, it breaks stealth. And if any illusion is given stealth, as soon as it attacks you, it breaks stealth. Thief remains the only class that can deal damage without breaking stealth.

Read that last sentence.

As to damage detonating Turrets. No this does NOT reveal the scrapper.

And your other point that being “the engineer can not directly attack you without revealing himself” say what? Are you moving the goalposts again?

So if a TURRET is doing the damage it not the Engineer that is doing it?

Ok if a pet is doing the damge it not the Ranger that is doing it.

Ok so if a trap or caltrops is doing the damge it not the theif that is doing it.

Now to your point on “bizzare builds” I never suggested this build workable or shoul dbe used. I use it to make the point that the claim “only the thief can apply damage without breaking stealth” is false. I use it to point out the issue is perma stealth rather then a thing like a trap or like caltrops that can do damage while stealthed.

Damage source of caltrops – thief
Damage source of winds of chaos from clones – clones
Damage source of burn from flamethrower turret – the turret.

I’m not moving any goal posts, the source of damage in every single other case but ghost thief gets revealed. I’ll admit I was wrong about turret detonations revealing the engineer however it still doesn’t change the that when a turret attacks it is revealed, you can see it and thus kill the source of the damage.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Claim made (several times over ) No class but thieif can apply damage and remain in stealth.

False the build below can apply significant damage and not break stealth. Lay down the turrets and load up gyro. There are several variants whether one favors Condition , power or a combination. In this build I picked two sources of the Fire condition that can be applied . Note that flame turret can also give a smoke field. You can then detonate turrets to stack on more stealth via the blast finisher. You will not break stealth either on those blasts or when the turrets attack.

Given turrets are not affected by power of the host while the FIRE of Fire turret is you go all condi in gear.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQJAqanUUBVVhVWB2WBEqiFLjK8euuuSMZCgxjutj76G-TVhMQBeT9HAs/gz0D4OlfBUJIpAWUsF-w

Really grasping at straws here, I thought it was made perfectly clear in one of my post but I guess it’s lost on you.

What is dealing damage to you can be seen at all times when it is attacking you. The engineer themselves cannot directly attack without revealing themselves. You do realise the turret detonations will reveal the scrapper and that the turrets are hilariously weak?

Can’t wait for the next “claim made” with some bizarre build.

First the claim was made that only the theif can apply damage while remaining stealthed. It was made several times over and I did not state you made that claim. Why did you assume I was talking about you?

>>And @Babazhook – the illusions are the ones dealing damage, not the mesmer. As soon as the mesmer attacks you, it breaks stealth. And if any illusion is given stealth, as soon as it attacks you, it breaks stealth. Thief remains the only class that can deal damage without breaking stealth.

Read that last sentence.

As to damage detonating Turrets. No this does NOT reveal the scrapper.

And your other point that being “the engineer can not directly attack you without revealing himself” say what? Are you moving the goalposts again?

So if a TURRET is doing the damage it not the Engineer that is doing it?

Ok if a pet is doing the damge it not the Ranger that is doing it.

Ok so if a trap or caltrops is doing the damge it not the theif that is doing it.

Now to your point on “bizzare builds” I never suggested this build workable or shoul dbe used. I use it to make the point that the claim “only the thief can apply damage without breaking stealth” is false. I use it to point out the issue is perma stealth rather then a thing like a trap or like caltrops that can do damage while stealthed.

Damage source of caltrops – thief
Damage source of winds of chaos from clones – clones
Damage source of burn from flamethrower turret – the turret.

I’m not moving any goal posts, the source of damage in every single other case but ghost thief gets revealed. I’ll admit I was wrong about turret detonations revealing the engineer however it still doesn’t change the that when a turret attacks it is revealed, you can see it and thus kill the source of the damage.

No the damage source of Caltrops and of traps is the caltrops and the trap.

Flame turrert gets its damage from the PLAYERS condition damage stat just as Caltrops and needle trap get theirs from the thief.

Please tell me why the damage source the thief in one case and the turret in the other?

Ok you can SEE the Turret? that does not change my point. You can see a caltrops field. To prevent damage from the turret you can destroy the Turret. To prevent damage from caltrops you get out of the caltrops field or avoid it.

Traps across the board can not be seen nor should they be. If you pay attention however, you can see them being laid. You can then dodge through it and it gone. . If you know where the trap is, it easier to get rid of then is a turret.

I have encountered some very AWARE players in WvW. They always know exactly where my traps laid and dodge through them because they are paying attention.

They tend to beat me because they are good.

Comparing Engi and Mesmer to Ghost thief is at best a red herring and to be frank a strawman.

Any attacker can counter play the Sneak Gyro by killing the gyro in a couple seconds leaving the Engi effectively without stealth for a very long period.

Mesmer has no access to perma stealth even with a Torch build. They have some substantial stealth stacking but it requires a lot of utility space to pull that off.

As much of complaining about Ghost thieves is 100% a l2p issue, Babazhook, you can’t really compare turrets/pets/clones to Ghost Thieves. Turrets/Clones/Pets you can see and attack, very predictably. The turrets and clones will die in single hits most likely. Not so much the pets, but its still AI that’s not evading/thinking/using utilities.

Straegen.2938:

Comparing Engi and Mesmer to Ghost thief is at best a red herring and to be frank a strawman.

Any attacker can counter play the Sneak Gyro by killing the gyro in a couple seconds leaving the Engi effectively without stealth for a very long period.

Mesmer has no access to perma stealth even with a Torch build. They have some substantial stealth stacking but it requires a lot of utility space to pull that off.

As I pointed out the Engineer can get stealth by detonationg his turrets in the smoke field that the Flame Turret pushes out.

The point is the claim that “No other profession can inflict damage while staying stealthed” is false.

That you can get rid of the stealth by killing the gyro does not change that.

You are not in fact reading anything I post. I am stating the issue with Ghost Thief is NOT the ability to inflict damage while stealthed but rather the ability to stack stealth endlessly.

In other words the solution NOT “lets add damage to traps” as that will just break traps and it not “Lets add a reveal to when a thief applies conditions” because that would break Caltrops. uncatcable and hidden thief.

The solution if deemed necessary to end this build is to address stealth stacking.

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Claim made (several times over ) No class but thieif can apply damage and remain in stealth.

False the build below can apply significant damage and not break stealth. Lay down the turrets and load up gyro. There are several variants whether one favors Condition , power or a combination. In this build I picked two sources of the Fire condition that can be applied . Note that flame turret can also give a smoke field. You can then detonate turrets to stack on more stealth via the blast finisher. You will not break stealth either on those blasts or when the turrets attack.

Given turrets are not affected by power of the host while the FIRE of Fire turret is you go all condi in gear.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQJAqanUUBVVhVWB2WBEqiFLjK8euuuSMZCgxjutj76G-TVhMQBeT9HAs/gz0D4OlfBUJIpAWUsF-w

Really grasping at straws here, I thought it was made perfectly clear in one of my post but I guess it’s lost on you.

What is dealing damage to you can be seen at all times when it is attacking you. The engineer themselves cannot directly attack without revealing themselves. You do realise the turret detonations will reveal the scrapper and that the turrets are hilariously weak?

Can’t wait for the next “claim made” with some bizarre build.

First the claim was made that only the theif can apply damage while remaining stealthed. It was made several times over and I did not state you made that claim. Why did you assume I was talking about you?

>>And @Babazhook – the illusions are the ones dealing damage, not the mesmer. As soon as the mesmer attacks you, it breaks stealth. And if any illusion is given stealth, as soon as it attacks you, it breaks stealth. Thief remains the only class that can deal damage without breaking stealth.

Read that last sentence.

As to damage detonating Turrets. No this does NOT reveal the scrapper.

And your other point that being “the engineer can not directly attack you without revealing himself” say what? Are you moving the goalposts again?

So if a TURRET is doing the damage it not the Engineer that is doing it?

Ok if a pet is doing the damge it not the Ranger that is doing it.

Ok so if a trap or caltrops is doing the damge it not the theif that is doing it.

Now to your point on “bizzare builds” I never suggested this build workable or shoul dbe used. I use it to make the point that the claim “only the thief can apply damage without breaking stealth” is false. I use it to point out the issue is perma stealth rather then a thing like a trap or like caltrops that can do damage while stealthed.

Damage source of caltrops – thief
Damage source of winds of chaos from clones – clones
Damage source of burn from flamethrower turret – the turret.

I’m not moving any goal posts, the source of damage in every single other case but ghost thief gets revealed. I’ll admit I was wrong about turret detonations revealing the engineer however it still doesn’t change the that when a turret attacks it is revealed, you can see it and thus kill the source of the damage.

No the damage source of Caltrops and of traps is the caltrops and the trap.

Flame turrert gets its damage from the PLAYERS condition damage stat just as Caltrops and needle trap get theirs from the thief.

Please tell me why the damage source the thief in one case and the turret in the other?

Ok you can SEE the Turret? that does not change my point. You can see a caltrops field. To prevent damage from the turret you can destroy the Turret. To prevent damage from caltrops you get out of the caltrops field or avoid it.

Traps across the board can not be seen nor should they be. If you pay attention however, you can see them being laid. You can then dodge through it and it gone. . If you know where the trap is, it easier to get rid of then is a turret.

I have encountered some very AWARE players in WvW. They always know exactly where my traps laid and dodge through them because they are paying attention.

They tend to beat me because they are good.

There’s no point continuing this “discussion” with you as you can’t tell the difference between an attack generated by a player and an attack generated by an object even after multiple people have explained it.

Like I say no other class can attack and stay perma stealthed, the attacks from your scrapper originate from the turret and reveals the attacker, the turret.

Again with the strawman argument. Nobody cares about an ineffective quasi-stealth turret engi that is about as lethal as an up-level Ranger in WvW. Stop trying to create a debate that nobody cares about and is ultimately pointless to the topic.

If that build was actually effective and remained stealthed the entire time, then yes it should be fixed too. Happy?

Straegen.2938:

Again with the strawman argument. Nobody cares about an ineffective quasi-stealth turret engi that is about as lethal as an up-level Ranger in WvW. Stop trying to create a debate that nobody cares about and is ultimately pointless to the topic.

I can post what i wish. It hardly strawman given the solutions being proposed. Happy?

babazhook.6805:

I can post what i wish. It hardly strawman given the solutions being proposed. Happy?

Actually you cannot post what you wish all the time. See… strawman argument ahead.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Claim made (several times over ) No class but thieif can apply damage and remain in stealth.

False the build below can apply significant damage and not break stealth. Lay down the turrets and load up gyro. There are several variants whether one favors Condition , power or a combination. In this build I picked two sources of the Fire condition that can be applied . Note that flame turret can also give a smoke field. You can then detonate turrets to stack on more stealth via the blast finisher. You will not break stealth either on those blasts or when the turrets attack.

Given turrets are not affected by power of the host while the FIRE of Fire turret is you go all condi in gear.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdEQJAqanUUBVVhVWB2WBEqiFLjK8euuuSMZCgxjutj76G-TVhMQBeT9HAs/gz0D4OlfBUJIpAWUsF-w

Really grasping at straws here, I thought it was made perfectly clear in one of my post but I guess it’s lost on you.

What is dealing damage to you can be seen at all times when it is attacking you. The engineer themselves cannot directly attack without revealing themselves. You do realise the turret detonations will reveal the scrapper and that the turrets are hilariously weak?

Can’t wait for the next “claim made” with some bizarre build.

First the claim was made that only the theif can apply damage while remaining stealthed. It was made several times over and I did not state you made that claim. Why did you assume I was talking about you?

>>And @Babazhook – the illusions are the ones dealing damage, not the mesmer. As soon as the mesmer attacks you, it breaks stealth. And if any illusion is given stealth, as soon as it attacks you, it breaks stealth. Thief remains the only class that can deal damage without breaking stealth.

Read that last sentence.

As to damage detonating Turrets. No this does NOT reveal the scrapper.

And your other point that being “the engineer can not directly attack you without revealing himself” say what? Are you moving the goalposts again?

So if a TURRET is doing the damage it not the Engineer that is doing it?

Ok if a pet is doing the damge it not the Ranger that is doing it.

Ok so if a trap or caltrops is doing the damge it not the theif that is doing it.

Now to your point on “bizzare builds” I never suggested this build workable or shoul dbe used. I use it to make the point that the claim “only the thief can apply damage without breaking stealth” is false. I use it to point out the issue is perma stealth rather then a thing like a trap or like caltrops that can do damage while stealthed.

Damage source of caltrops – thief
Damage source of winds of chaos from clones – clones
Damage source of burn from flamethrower turret – the turret.

I’m not moving any goal posts, the source of damage in every single other case but ghost thief gets revealed. I’ll admit I was wrong about turret detonations revealing the engineer however it still doesn’t change the that when a turret attacks it is revealed, you can see it and thus kill the source of the damage.

No the damage source of Caltrops and of traps is the caltrops and the trap.

Flame turrert gets its damage from the PLAYERS condition damage stat just as Caltrops and needle trap get theirs from the thief.

Please tell me why the damage source the thief in one case and the turret in the other?

Ok you can SEE the Turret? that does not change my point. You can see a caltrops field. To prevent damage from the turret you can destroy the Turret. To prevent damage from caltrops you get out of the caltrops field or avoid it.

Traps across the board can not be seen nor should they be. If you pay attention however, you can see them being laid. You can then dodge through it and it gone. . If you know where the trap is, it easier to get rid of then is a turret.

I have encountered some very AWARE players in WvW. They always know exactly where my traps laid and dodge through them because they are paying attention.

They tend to beat me because they are good.

There’s no point continuing this “discussion” with you as you can’t tell the difference between an attack generated by a player and an attack generated by an object even after multiple people have explained it.

Like I say no other class can attack and stay perma stealthed, the attacks from your scrapper originate from the turret and reveals the attacker, the turret.

Turrets can not be stealthed. They can not be “revealed” when they attack because they are not hidden in the first place.

A trap is hidden and only made visible when it triggered and applies its damage.

Caltrops are always visible and can not be hidden. In this regard they are much like Turrets.

your logic fails me

Ranger attacks from stealth > revealed.
Engi attacks from stealth > revealed.
Mesmer attacks from stealth > revealed.
Ghost teef attacks from stealth >

Stop coming with this nonsense when its completely irrelevant to the ghost build.

People say things like, it’s the engies turrets, or the mesmers illusions, hell even thievs guild can do it. same as it’s the thief traps. Not the thief it self. But the difference is, although they cme from a player they are all AI (beast) traps are traps.

Traps and Caltrops are not like AI. Attacking AI, like pets, clones, turrets, never reveal the player, because they are an own unity. Traps reveal the player as soon they apply direct dmg. It is the lack of direct dmg of thieves’ traps, caltrops and steal that cause the problem, because applying condis alone doesn’t count as an attack.

Offair.2563:

Ranger attacks from stealth > revealed.
Engi attacks from stealth > revealed.
Mesmer attacks from stealth > revealed.
Ghost teef attacks from stealth >

Stop coming with this nonsense when its completely irrelevant to the ghost build.

Mesmer has 2 Shatters that can stack quite a bit of condi from stealth while also summoning Illusions for extra condi/dps…
I believe there’s also runes like Balthazar and Perplexity that can stack conditions while in stealth…
Why not have conditions reveal similar to power? That would fix peoples issues no?

That would certainly fix the issue with ghost thief.

However, 99% of conditions are already tied to an attack that applies direct dmg and therefore will reveal the player, so it would be easier to just change those few outliers to also apply some direct dmg. There is no need to change the whole mechanic. The outcome would be the same.

sephiroth.4217:

Offair.2563:

Ranger attacks from stealth > revealed.
Engi attacks from stealth > revealed.
Mesmer attacks from stealth > revealed.
Ghost teef attacks from stealth >

Stop coming with this nonsense when its completely irrelevant to the ghost build.

Mesmer has 2 Shatters that can stack quite a bit of condi from stealth while also summoning Illusions for extra condi/dps…
I believe there’s also runes like Balthazar and Perplexity that can stack conditions while in stealth…
Why not have conditions reveal similar to power? That would fix peoples issues no?

Thing with clones is you can see what’s going on.

But yeah make condition reveal would go a long way.

sephiroth.4217:

Offair.2563:

Ranger attacks from stealth > revealed.
Engi attacks from stealth > revealed.
Mesmer attacks from stealth > revealed.
Ghost teef attacks from stealth >

Stop coming with this nonsense when its completely irrelevant to the ghost build.

Mesmer has 2 Shatters that can stack quite a bit of condi from stealth while also summoning Illusions for extra condi/dps…
I believe there’s also runes like Balthazar and Perplexity that can stack conditions while in stealth…
Why not have conditions reveal similar to power? That would fix peoples issues no?

The shatters reveal the mesmer, so I don’t understand why this is relevant to the discussion. Regardless, the illusions themselves won’t be stealthed when the mesmer shatters, so you’d be able to see them coming at you for the shatter.

But yes, the best way to deal with this issue is to simple make it so that applying a damaging condition breaks stealth. Its all the change that is needed.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

That would certainly fix the issue with ghost thief.

However, 99% of conditions are already tied to an attack that applies direct dmg and therefore will reveal the player, so it would be easier to just change those few outliers to also apply some direct dmg. There is no need to change the whole mechanic. The outcome would be the same.

How would this work with Caltrops and Uncatchable ? If the idea is any time a condition applied there a damage component so as to reveal the thief , these would never be used as caltrops would mean no stealth for 10 seconds because all a person has to do is step in the field to reveal. Is the intent of that damage component that it work only on initial use or any time a condition applied?

How do you factor in venom and sigils? Currently if I use something like Lotus training , Fist Flurry and the like any venoms I have loaded can be loaded with that attack. Does this happen via that damage component on those Condition apps?

Example under current system. On steal If i trait MUG out of DA and load a venom the mug triggers an application of the venom because it does damage. If the application of Posion or say Confusion off the steal also had a damage component would I trigger another application of that venom?

What could this lead to?

Load up needle. It has a damage component. The Confusion off BA has a damage component seperate from that. Spider venom loaded.

The damage off the trap triggers a venom add. The damage off BA triggers a venom add. The damage off mug triggers a venom add. On that steal I have three chances to trigger an on hit sigil. Add in one of them runes that applies a condition and heal coupled with a damage component and you might ened up in even a worse place when it comes to condition bursts.

Does that poisosn add out of DA also get a Damage component?

is this a good thing?

I absolutely agree that Condition Application SHOULD break stealth. Stealth in this game is now available to a majority of classes and should be a DEFENSIVE tool for escape/mobility NOT an offensive one that can be abused.

+1 for Stealth Break w/Condi Application

Stealth should end every time you receive or deal damage.

babazhook.6805:

How would this work with Caltrops and Uncatchable ? If the idea is any time a condition applied there a damage component so as to reveal the thief , these would never be used as caltrops would mean no stealth for 10 seconds because all a person has to do is step in the field to reveal. Is the intent of that damage component that it work only on initial use or any time a condition applied?

The idea is, that anything that applies conditons also deals a (small) amount of direct dmg. Not additional direct dmg from applying condis. I can see the issue with thief being revealed by people who step into those fields (and taking damage as result – kinda what you want anyways), but that’s how it works for all classes. Yes, other classes tend to be less reliant on stealth, but not every thief build is (and should be) reliant of sitting in stealth all the time either.

I don’t see your issue with venoms and sigils. Those already require direct dmg to be applied, so nothing would change.

babazhook.6805:

How would this work with Caltrops and Uncatchable ? If the idea is any time a condition applied there a damage component so as to reveal the thief , these would never be used as caltrops would mean no stealth for 10 seconds because all a person has to do is step in the field to reveal. Is the intent of that damage component that it work only on initial use or any time a condition applied?

The first tick deals direct damage AND condition damage (the remaining ticks are just condition damage).

For example the first tick of Caltrops (which is 10s in length) would break stealth with Revealed, after 3s, stealth can be reapplied for the remainder 7s left of Caltrops.

Can we get this kitten nerfed finally? There should be no skill that can be used from stealth that keeps you in stealth and additionally gives you a almost full stack of conditions.

We have seen you can nerf skills for wvw – no finally rework your stealth mechanic in wvw.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

babazhook.6805:

How would this work with Caltrops and Uncatchable ? If the idea is any time a condition applied there a damage component so as to reveal the thief , these would never be used as caltrops would mean no stealth for 10 seconds because all a person has to do is step in the field to reveal. Is the intent of that damage component that it work only on initial use or any time a condition applied?

The idea is, that anything that applies conditons also deals a (small) amount of direct dmg. Not additional direct dmg from applying condis. I can see the issue with thief being revealed by people who step into those fields (and taking damage as result – kinda what you want anyways), but that’s how it works for all classes. Yes, other classes tend to be less reliant on stealth, but not every thief build is (and should be) reliant of sitting in stealth all the time either.

I don’t see your issue with venoms and sigils. Those already require direct dmg to be applied, so nothing would change.

I will break this up into two separate posts.

First I will have to take you literally in that you are suggesting that some small amount of direct damage be added when a condition applied.

This would make using deadly trapper a liability in game terms. No trait that is intended to enhance a skill category should make it worse. We will leave Needle trap out of the equation as deadly trapper usage on it under your proposed solution is moot. (it already a condition based trap where the other only become so when deadly trap used)

If I trait deadly trapper it becomes a liability when using Tripwire, Ambush and Shadowtrap and on Shadowtrap in particular.

There is no way I would set these traps if tripping them would force a reveal and since deadly trapper applies Vuln this is exactly what would occur.

To shadowtrap I would never use it under such a system. If I set it as an escape or as a point to setup an ambush , I would compromise my ability to use that any time I stealthed. If I happen to stealth and this trap tripped I am now revealed. I would not be able to take advantage of the 5 seconds stealth on shadow pursuit for that 4 seconds of reveal else I would arrive at the trap unstealthed, loose that 5 second add and forgo the very reason we have this trap, that to set up a surprise attack from hiding.

The trap would function much better without traiting deadly trapper but then would have that longer cooldown so as to make it not worthwhile.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

babazhook.6805:

How would this work with Caltrops and Uncatchable ? If the idea is any time a condition applied there a damage component so as to reveal the thief , these would never be used as caltrops would mean no stealth for 10 seconds because all a person has to do is step in the field to reveal. Is the intent of that damage component that it work only on initial use or any time a condition applied?

The idea is, that anything that applies conditons also deals a (small) amount of direct dmg. Not additional direct dmg from applying condis. I can see the issue with thief being revealed by people who step into those fields (and taking damage as result – kinda what you want anyways), but that’s how it works for all classes. Yes, other classes tend to be less reliant on stealth, but not every thief build is (and should be) reliant of sitting in stealth all the time either.

I don’t see your issue with venoms and sigils. Those already require direct dmg to be applied, so nothing would change.

Second point is a clarification as to what I was getting at when I mentioned sigils and venoms. Forget the stealth aspect.

The way venoms work is that they are applied on EACH separate attack that does physical damage. As example if I have mug out of DA and steal I apply two poison.
If I load spider venom and do that same mug I apply three poison and if I also load skale venom I apply three poison , 1 vuln and one torment on that same steal with mug just because of that physical damage proc. (Add to that weakness)

The suggestion is that a small amount of physical damage be added to each application of conditions. Bewildering ambush is an application of conditions so would get a physical damage component. Serpents touch is an application of poison so would get a physical component. Lotus poison is an application of weakness so would get a phyiscal damage component. Needle trap is an application of conditions so would get a physical damage component.

Scenario. I have a BA traited thief and preload needle trap on a steal. I also load up Spider venom and perhaps even skale. I understand that the venoms do not need a physical damage componet but they would be triggered by all of those others.

My steal, costing zero INI will load 5 confusion , 3 bleeds and 5 poison base. 5 Vuln would also kick in along with weakness. if MUG also traited this would force 5 seperate procs of physical damage meaning I would load up 5 more poison and 4 more torment along with 4 more vuln stacks.

Sum total a single steal costing 0 in ini 5 confusion , three bleeds 9 vuln 10 poison 4 torment weakness and an immob. With D/p I just jump into stealth and stay there and theif number 2 does the same thing.

Hidden thief can only work if the damage applied before the hidden thief kicks in meaning if traited after that steal i would be hidden and can stack stealth.

Remember that under the current system venoms can not be used given a physical damage component needed. All we have created is a slight change in the sequence and of types of utilities used and the thief can rely just on steal and park in stealth until it comes up again.

Just as today one of these not all bad but two or three in unison and we would have the same results and the same complaints.

Oh and just too add. If two thieves working in unsion using this system under those proposed changes , they would both load venoms and share.

Any skill used while in stealth should cause reveal. Triggering the traps should also cause reveal.

my god, u all are like broken records stuck on repeat. let it go and let the devs decide what is balanced. till then, learn to adapt.