Guild Wars 2

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

OK Necro just got nerfed (or rekt depending on your reliance on epi).

Please fix thief now.

babazhook.6805:

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

1/4 sec reveal on a 240 radius, that also depends on weapon swap while in combat will no absolutely nothing to even begin to address this issue in WvW and you know it.

OriOri.8724:

babazhook.6805:

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

1/4 sec reveal on a 240 radius, that also depends on weapon swap while in combat will no absolutely nothing to even begin to address this issue in WvW and you know it.

You really have a L2p issue and have no idea how this thief works. I can kill stealth stacking with this sigil.

First clue. The length of time revealed is immaterial.

Second clue. In WvW more then one person can use this sigil.

Third clue. A thief has a limited supply of initiative.

I agree. TW, lame transfer wolves ran 20+ ghost thieves tonight and just trolled our map blob. No skill build.

~boon steal and basilisk on a ghost is a win win , i think its the only issue, plus if target is dazed after boon removal he is dead no matter what class he plays.

btw tthief traps are 20seconds CD the time that u guys say that thief trapper is a one trick pony isnt even true, cause he will mantain strealthed and wont be hit, another thing is even if thief gets hit while stealthed, he wont be revealed.
And not all classes have contition removers like ful condition remover deidicated guard has…wich cant be easilly killed has well.

Asahi.1487:

I agree. TW, lame transfer wolves ran 20+ ghost thieves tonight and just trolled our map blob. No skill build.

Thats actually hillarious good thing some one is abusing well, that how Anet wants players to play.
It only be “fixed” when we have several groups like that…

Hope they have made a video of that :>

ANet needs to change how stealth stacks, and what it possible to do while stealthed.

babazhook.6805:

OriOri.8724:

babazhook.6805:

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

1/4 sec reveal on a 240 radius, that also depends on weapon swap while in combat will no absolutely nothing to even begin to address this issue in WvW and you know it.

You really have a L2p issue and have no idea how this thief works. I can kill stealth stacking with this sigil.

First clue. The length of time revealed is immaterial.

Second clue. In WvW more then one person can use this sigil.

Third clue. A thief has a limited supply of initiative.

So we have to sacrifice a sigil slot to be able to stand a small chance of killing said thief? Why does no other build in the game require you to do anything like this and still stand a chance?

You fail to understand that giving us tools to counter this build is not what is needed. The build shouldn’t exist in the first place.

Condi application should reveal.

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

OriOri.8724:

babazhook.6805:

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

1/4 sec reveal on a 240 radius, that also depends on weapon swap while in combat will no absolutely nothing to even begin to address this issue in WvW and you know it.

You really have a L2p issue and have no idea how this thief works. I can kill stealth stacking with this sigil.

First clue. The length of time revealed is immaterial.

Second clue. In WvW more then one person can use this sigil.

Third clue. A thief has a limited supply of initiative.

So we have to sacrifice a sigil slot to be able to stand a small chance of killing said thief? Why does no other build in the game require you to do anything like this and still stand a chance?

You fail to understand that giving us tools to counter this build is not what is needed. The build shouldn’t exist in the first place.

Condi application should reveal.

No , it shouldn’t. I have already outlined how “applying conditions should apply reveal” will not work and will only lead to people such as yourself crying about the same.

The issue is stacking stealth , not applying conditions . This prevents the same , just as a person putting on a sigil of cleansing can use it to help with the volume of conditions that might be on them.

Hey maybe conditions should just do no damage? That way to do not have sacrifice a sigil slot for the same? It makes your build “sub-optimal” right?

You do know that ghost thief is “sub-optimal” so why the concern? Are sub optimal builds giving you trouble?

if you feel you only have “a small chance” of killing such a thief were such a sigil introduced in WvW you have a learn to play issue or your build needs a lot of work. A ghost thief with no INI is a pretty easy kill.

OriOri.8724:

sephiroth.4217:

Offair.2563:

Ranger attacks from stealth > revealed.
Engi attacks from stealth > revealed.
Mesmer attacks from stealth > revealed.
Ghost teef attacks from stealth >

Stop coming with this nonsense when its completely irrelevant to the ghost build.

Mesmer has 2 Shatters that can stack quite a bit of condi from stealth while also summoning Illusions for extra condi/dps…
I believe there’s also runes like Balthazar and Perplexity that can stack conditions while in stealth…
Why not have conditions reveal similar to power? That would fix peoples issues no?

The shatters reveal the mesmer, so I don’t understand why this is relevant to the discussion. Regardless, the illusions themselves won’t be stealthed when the mesmer shatters, so you’d be able to see them coming at you for the shatter.

But yes, the best way to deal with this issue is to simple make it so that applying a damaging condition breaks stealth. Its all the change that is needed.

It’s relevant because Mesmer has 4 shatters, 2 of which can be used and not be revealed, Diversion and Distortion on top of that is Mass Invis to cover your shatters and Phantasmal Mage and maybe Illusionary Berserker for extra DPS if you ran Vipers…. Combine all that with your Continuum Split and you could probably be stealthed just as long as a thief + have Alacrity and be able to apply direct damage and still stay invisible…

Same mechanic people complain about but better!

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

babazhook.6805:

OriOri.8724:

babazhook.6805:

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

1/4 sec reveal on a 240 radius, that also depends on weapon swap while in combat will no absolutely nothing to even begin to address this issue in WvW and you know it.

You really have a L2p issue and have no idea how this thief works. I can kill stealth stacking with this sigil.

First clue. The length of time revealed is immaterial.

Second clue. In WvW more then one person can use this sigil.

Third clue. A thief has a limited supply of initiative.

Ah yes, let my 240 radius, 1/4 sec reveal that I have to be in combat to use be my saving grace. It must not be possible in WvW for a thief to stealth up out of sight then come out and gank me in the middle of nowhere with no forewarning for me. That reveal will do wonders to stop a 10k backstab from a zerk thief.

Except that it can’t, because I have to be in combat in order to proc the reveal. And with 9 sec CD you have plenty of time to gather the initiative to stealth up again.

This does nothing to counter any thief in WvW much less a ghost thief, where combat doesn’t revolve around points and they can gank you from anywhere, without you ever having seen them. If you reveal ghost thief for 1/4 sec, all they have to do is go straight back to stealth. By the time they react, the revealed debuff will be over. The mere fact that you are trying to argue that this is somehow a counter is ludicrous.

But furthermore, you seem ok that this is the only build in the game that relies on a sigil to have even a chance at fighting the thief. And even then you only get to “fight” for 1/4 sec every 9 seconds before he stealths up again, and that’s only if the thief is stupid enough to be close enough to be revealed by you. This is not ok. Not in the slightest. But keep trying to defend something that is clearly broken, its quite amusing honestly. The “logic” you use is very entertaining.

sephiroth.4217:

OriOri.8724:

sephiroth.4217:

Offair.2563:

Ranger attacks from stealth > revealed.
Engi attacks from stealth > revealed.
Mesmer attacks from stealth > revealed.
Ghost teef attacks from stealth >

Stop coming with this nonsense when its completely irrelevant to the ghost build.

Mesmer has 2 Shatters that can stack quite a bit of condi from stealth while also summoning Illusions for extra condi/dps…
I believe there’s also runes like Balthazar and Perplexity that can stack conditions while in stealth…
Why not have conditions reveal similar to power? That would fix peoples issues no?

The shatters reveal the mesmer, so I don’t understand why this is relevant to the discussion. Regardless, the illusions themselves won’t be stealthed when the mesmer shatters, so you’d be able to see them coming at you for the shatter.

But yes, the best way to deal with this issue is to simple make it so that applying a damaging condition breaks stealth. Its all the change that is needed.

It’s relevant because Mesmer has 4 shatters, 2 of which can be used and not be revealed, Diversion and Distortion on top of that is Mass Invis to cover your shatters and Phantasmal Mage and maybe Illusionary Berserker for extra DPS if you ran Vipers…. Combine all that with your Continuum Split and you could probably be stealthed just as long as a thief + have Alacrity and be able to apply direct damage and still stay invisible…

Same mechanic people complain about but better!

Distortion is a temporary ivuln, its not even offensive so again I fail to see how it matters. Diversion is a stun, which is offensive, but doesn’t deal damage. Stunning you is fair game, and I have no problem with a class being able to stun you without breaking stealth, because they can’t deal damage. As soon as they deal damage, whether its power damage or damaging condis though, it should reveal them.

MI has an almost 2 second cast time for you to interrupt or to get ready because you know something is coming. That is L2P issue if you either don’t interrupt it or if you don’t prepare for a burst to come soon after they use it. The phantasms are not invisible when they are summoned, and even if they get stealth from MI, they reveal themselves when they deal damage, so again I fail to see how this is at all relevant to the discussion at hand. Every source of damage that comes from a mesmer or their illusions reveals the source of the damage. If it came from mesmers, it reveals the mesmer. If it came from phantasms, it reveals the phantasms. The issue at hand is that ghost thief bypasses this balancing mechanic and can deal damage without ever breaking stealth.

OriOri.8724:

Distortion is a temporary ivuln, its not even offensive so again I fail to see how it matters. Diversion is a stun, which is offensive, but doesn’t deal damage. Stunning you is fair game, and I have no problem with a class being able to stun you without breaking stealth, because they can’t deal damage. As soon as they deal damage, whether its power damage or damaging condis though, it should reveal them.

Don’t all shatters cause confusion/torment on pretty much any competent condi build…?

Turk.5460:

OriOri.8724:

Distortion is a temporary ivuln, its not even offensive so again I fail to see how it matters. Diversion is a stun, which is offensive, but doesn’t deal damage. Stunning you is fair game, and I have no problem with a class being able to stun you without breaking stealth, because they can’t deal damage. As soon as they deal damage, whether its power damage or damaging condis though, it should reveal them.

Don’t all shatters cause confusion/torment on pretty much any competent condi build…?

They have to be traited to do so, and if the game were balanced this would cause reveal.

I’ve always been for applying damaging conditions to cause reveal. Its the only way to balance everything.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

Most of the folks that say this don’t reveal they are actually Ghost thieves in their signature. But nice try there buddy.

Glass Hand.7306:

OK Necro just got nerfed (or rekt depending on your reliance on epi).

Please fix thief now.

The only thing that got nerfed on the necro is the ridiculous Epi shots. Epi is still OP.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

The ones who don’t understand complain the loudest. Its a classic “vocal minority” thing. The players who actually know how to adapt, strategize, understand the basic gw2 mechanics, use critical thinking skills, know not to stand still pressing 1, etc., don’t bother to come to the forums and complain about a minor annoyance.

I’ve yet to see any person who complains about X profession or Y build actually record themselves playing said profession or build, and show that a novice such as them can perform well. And until they do, all they’re doing is blowing smoke.

Turk.5460:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

The ones who don’t understand complain the loudest. Its a classic “vocal minority” thing. The players who actually know how to adapt, strategize, understand the basic gw2 mechanics, use critical thinking skills, know not to stand still pressing 1, etc., don’t bother to come to the forums and complain about a minor annoyance.

I’ve yet to see any person who complains about X profession or Y build actually record themselves playing said profession or build, and show that a novice such as them can perform well. And until they do, all they’re doing is blowing smoke.

There nothing in fact OP about the Ghost thief build. I can not recollect dying to one .

There is a frustration factor playing against it for many which I think the only thing that really needs to be looked at.

There plenty of people who just do not understand how the build works. These are the ones that claim it trappers runes that keeps them stealthed or that something like Caltrops, that can be seen on the map is unfair because it does not rveal the theif that might have dropped them. I just have to see the caltrops to avoid the damage myself.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

I agree that there’s far greater things to look at in wvw, but ghost thief is becoming more and more common in wvw. That in turn is continuing to add to the degrade of wvw. It is a fun build to mess around with but its ran its course.

babazhook.6805:

There nothing in fact OP about the Ghost thief build. I can not recollect dying to one .

That was true for me a couple weeks ago but now they seem to be crawling all over the place. They typically add-on to an existing fight since you cannot see them arriving, attacking or going. It is the perfect “assassin” build.

Straegen.2938:

babazhook.6805:

There nothing in fact OP about the Ghost thief build. I can not recollect dying to one .

That was true for me a couple weeks ago but now they seem to be crawling all over the place. They typically add-on to an existing fight since you cannot see them arriving, attacking or going. It is the perfect “assassin” build.

In numbers they dangerous just like any class focusing another, and this just makes them parked in stealth more frustrating to others.

Which is why I feel the issue is that camping stealth.

Honestly, whether the build is actually good or not is irrelevant to the discussion which is the only argument that I’ve seen in this thread against getting rid of it, is there anyone here that can actually defend ghost thief as a build that should exist in this game gameplay wise?

Digikid.7230:

Honestly, whether the build is actually good or not is irrelevant to the discussion which is the only argument that I’ve seen in this thread against getting rid of it, is there anyone here that can actually defend ghost thief as a build that should exist in this game gameplay wise?

Oh absolutely not, its incredibly boring – both to use and to fight against. I don’t defend the build itself, but merely the basic logic and reasoning that should come into play when encountering an enemy you aren’t sure how to defeat or defend against. Too many people constantly cry that X build is super OP, nerf it now, yet X build has plenty of ways to defeat or even simply defend against.

ghost theif can be encounter in many unreveal ways and counter trap and condi transfer etc etc is just that a loot of people they stay afk not doing anything and the thief kill them and they get mad…i dont see how you can die if you move,,,,after all if is 2 or more thiefs they will be always ghost perma invis ….like my party we are 4 thief and we go invis all the time but if we get in combat with guardians and necro epidemic is hard to kill them 4 vs 4.

OriOri.8724:

.

MI has an almost 2 second cast time for you to interrupt or to get ready because you know something is coming. That is L2P issue if you either don’t interrupt it or if you don’t prepare for a burst to come soon after they use it. The phantasms are not invisible when they are summoned, and even if they get stealth from MI, they reveal themselves when they deal damage, so again I fail to see how this is at all relevant to the discussion at hand. Every source of damage that comes from a mesmer or their illusions reveals the source of the damage. If it came from mesmers, it reveals the mesmer. If it came from phantasms, it reveals the phantasms. The issue at hand is that ghost thief bypasses this balancing mechanic and can deal damage without ever breaking stealth.

Shatters inflict torment and confusion, I thought this was basic knowledge?

I hate spelling it out because it makes me feel like I’m having a discussion with someone who’s not thinking or using their brain but of course the shatters reveal themselves when they attack, the point is the player stays invisible………

I like how you’re so quick to “counterplay” MI and 12+ confusion/torment + Direct damage from stealth but you can’t counterplay 3 stacks of bleed….. /facepalm.

Mesmer uses the same mechanics, but better. If the player knows how too, of course.

Shatters need to be traited to apply torment and confusion, I thought this was basic knowledge? If you had paid any attention to my posts, I want applying damaging conditions to cause revealed. Which would make this a non issue in the first place.

OriOri.8724:

Shatters need to be traited to apply torment and confusion, I thought this was basic knowledge? If you had paid any attention to my posts, I want applying damaging conditions to cause revealed. Which would make this a non issue in the first place.

I thought it was pretty obvious the Mesmer is traited for conditions when we ARE talking about condition builds (any player with any shred of experience in this game would know these facts without it being spelled out for them, most people the context is enough)……. And if you read my posts, I was the one who suggested condi to reveal, kitten .

I really hate spelling it out but if you don’t understand then you don’t understand and I’m sorry I can’t help you with that.

sephiroth.4217:

OriOri.8724:

Shatters need to be traited to apply torment and confusion, I thought this was basic knowledge? If you had paid any attention to my posts, I want applying damaging conditions to cause revealed. Which would make this a non issue in the first place.

I thought it was pretty obvious the Mesmer is traited for conditions when we ARE talking about condition builds (any player with any shred of experience in this game would know these facts without it being spelled out for them, most people the context is enough)……. And if you read my posts, I was the one who suggested condi to reveal, kitten .

I really hate spelling it out but if you don’t understand then you don’t understand and I’m sorry I can’t help you with that.

Condition to reveal is a bad idea. It would break too many skills which would require revamp across the board and in particular for a thief.

It really immaterial to other classes which is why they so readily make the suggestion. They do not have the volume of stealth based skills the thief has nor are they as reliant on them.

Example. Black powder applies a pulsing blind. Why would a thief ever use it if it just reveals him from stealth? It supposed to be a smoke field so the thief can achieve stealth and it in fact defeats that purpose with the blind.

Remember last refuge and how it got so many thiefs killed? The same would happen with traps specifically if Deadly trapper specced. It why they never used traps before. They were a liabilty as Caltrops would become.

Deadly trapper. This skill is supposed to make one better with traps and improve on them . With forced reveal on a condition app it makes the traps a liability and the trait makes 3 of 4 traps worse. (See shadowtrap)

Blinding powder blinds and stealths. It used by many while in stealth to setup an attack. How does that now work with a forced reveal?

Cloaked in Shadow. This applies blind afer achieving stealth. It would seem pointless a trait if it just reveals again due to the blind.

Other examples abound.

It was suggested that in order to force reveals on application of conditions damage components be added to an application of the same on those where it does not exist. This whould make Ghost thief even deadlier as a single steal could be set up to load a whack of conditions wherein after applied the thief can just camp in stealth and wait for next steal cycle, This would allow the thief to apply as many if not more damaging conditions in one single attack than a Ghost theif using the multitude of attacks could do.

This would ultimately end with people drawing the conclsuion that steal and venoms are OP and call for those to be nerfed.

FOKOZUYNEN.8206:

ghost theif can be encounter in many unreveal ways and counter trap and condi transfer etc etc is just that a loot of people they stay afk not doing anything and the thief kill them and they get mad…i dont see how you can die if you move,,,,after all if is 2 or more thiefs they will be always ghost perma invis ….like my party we are 4 thief and we go invis all the time but if we get in combat with guardians and necro epidemic is hard to kill them 4 vs 4.

Exactly, and going up against 4 other people who can drop 4 stealth traps makes the situation even more dangerous, can’t even see the traps so how can they fairly avoid them? That’s why thieves have to escape so much. Too many reveals already in the game, they add anymore and thieves will become extinct.

sephiroth.4217:

OriOri.8724:

If you had paid any attention to my posts, I want applying damaging conditions to cause revealed.

And if you read my posts, I was the one who suggested condi to reveal, kitten .

I always find it funny when people argumentatively agree with each other, and then argue about who agreed first. XD

i normally dont agree that entire builds and playstyles should simply not exist but yah ghost thief is just impossible to 1v1 against infact a good one can 1v5 and still win in many cases. there is no justification for this. its one thing when a zerker ele deals enough damage to force an entire zerg to back off, its one thing when a guardian face tanks his way thru 40 people and comes out at full hp on the other side. but NOTHING can stop a ghost thief because if they even consider the idea of losing they just escape with no way to track them down.

mulzi.8273:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

Most of the folks that say this don’t reveal they are actually Ghost thieves in their signature. But nice try there buddy.

Eh? Are you implying that I am defending this build and run it or something?

babazhook.6805:

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

OriOri.8724:

babazhook.6805:

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

1/4 sec reveal on a 240 radius, that also depends on weapon swap while in combat will no absolutely nothing to even begin to address this issue in WvW and you know it.

You really have a L2p issue and have no idea how this thief works. I can kill stealth stacking with this sigil.

First clue. The length of time revealed is immaterial.

Second clue. In WvW more then one person can use this sigil.

Third clue. A thief has a limited supply of initiative.

So we have to sacrifice a sigil slot to be able to stand a small chance of killing said thief? Why does no other build in the game require you to do anything like this and still stand a chance?

You fail to understand that giving us tools to counter this build is not what is needed. The build shouldn’t exist in the first place.

Condi application should reveal.

No , it shouldn’t. I have already outlined how “applying conditions should apply reveal” will not work and will only lead to people such as yourself crying about the same.

The issue is stacking stealth , not applying conditions . This prevents the same , just as a person putting on a sigil of cleansing can use it to help with the volume of conditions that might be on them.

Hey maybe conditions should just do no damage? That way to do not have sacrifice a sigil slot for the same? It makes your build “sub-optimal” right?

You do know that ghost thief is “sub-optimal” so why the concern? Are sub optimal builds giving you trouble?

if you feel you only have “a small chance” of killing such a thief were such a sigil introduced in WvW you have a learn to play issue or your build needs a lot of work. A ghost thief with no INI is a pretty easy kill.

Your making things personal again, why?

You keep on whining about stealth stacking, maybe your own L2P issue stems from that.

‘Hey, maybe conditions should just do no damage’. Do you still take yourself seriously in this discussion when you make petty remarks like that? Maybe condi’s should do no damage, so people like you can stop poluting this game.

I stated that no other build requires me to slot a very specific sigil (which, I might add, is close to useless out of this specific fight), that’s something different then what you’re trying to make me say.

Ghost thief is sub-optimal, as you so demeaningly stated to refer to another post of mine. Now, be fair, instead of childish, and don’t take that out of context.

A build, even if it is sub-optimal, should not be so imbalanced when you look at the fun both players involved in the fight should be able to experience. It is very adequatly described as ‘anti-fun’ for the opposing player. Anti-fun can be caused by a lot of factors, but a build being completely broken and having zero reasonable counterplay (which is probably why you like it so much) should never be the reason.

And everybody struggles against sub-optimal builds from time to time, especially in WvW, where glaring weaknesses to builds can be mediated by imbalanced stat distribution possibilities. also, a sub-optimal build used by a decent player can net you good results, while having fun. So there is no objection to using such a build, hell, I’ve posted several of mine in the past. The discussion you refer to wasn’t about that, it was about them simply being sub-optimal and recognizing that fact.

However, if I’d play Ghost thief, and you revealed me for 1/4 second, you would not kill me. I guarantuee it. It seems to me that your opponents have a L2P issue when they lose to you.

Rashagar.8349:

sephiroth.4217:

OriOri.8724:

If you had paid any attention to my posts, I want applying damaging conditions to cause revealed.

And if you read my posts, I was the one who suggested condi to reveal, kitten .

I always find it funny when people argumentatively agree with each other, and then argue about who agreed first. XD

Yea.. Real head scratcher talking to people on here sometimes…

Fat Disgrace.4275:

mulzi.8273:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

Most of the folks that say this don’t reveal they are actually Ghost thieves in their signature. But nice try there buddy.

Eh? Are you implying that I am defending this build and run it or something?

Can confirm Fat Disgrace as far as I know doesn’t usually run ghost thief. He usually plays your standard DP daredevil that keeps trying to go for the mesmer before said mesmer oneshots him as soon as he steals.

apharma.3741:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

mulzi.8273:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

Most of the folks that say this don’t reveal they are actually Ghost thieves in their signature. But nice try there buddy.

Eh? Are you implying that I am defending this build and run it or something?

Can confirm Fat Disgrace as far as I know doesn’t usually run ghost thief. He usually plays your standard DP daredevil that keeps trying to go for the mesmer before said mesmer oneshots him as soon as he steals.

That’s the 2nd time you said this. Havnt been 1 shotted in a long time by a mesmer. You’re 100% this is me snd not another thief? I also play s/d a lot too.

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

OriOri.8724:

babazhook.6805:

See sigil of Revelation. If implemented in WvW issue solved.

1/4 sec reveal on a 240 radius, that also depends on weapon swap while in combat will no absolutely nothing to even begin to address this issue in WvW and you know it.

You really have a L2p issue and have no idea how this thief works. I can kill stealth stacking with this sigil.

First clue. The length of time revealed is immaterial.

Second clue. In WvW more then one person can use this sigil.

Third clue. A thief has a limited supply of initiative.

So we have to sacrifice a sigil slot to be able to stand a small chance of killing said thief? Why does no other build in the game require you to do anything like this and still stand a chance?

You fail to understand that giving us tools to counter this build is not what is needed. The build shouldn’t exist in the first place.

Condi application should reveal.

No , it shouldn’t. I have already outlined how “applying conditions should apply reveal” will not work and will only lead to people such as yourself crying about the same.

The issue is stacking stealth , not applying conditions . This prevents the same , just as a person putting on a sigil of cleansing can use it to help with the volume of conditions that might be on them.

Hey maybe conditions should just do no damage? That way to do not have sacrifice a sigil slot for the same? It makes your build “sub-optimal” right?

You do know that ghost thief is “sub-optimal” so why the concern? Are sub optimal builds giving you trouble?

if you feel you only have “a small chance” of killing such a thief were such a sigil introduced in WvW you have a learn to play issue or your build needs a lot of work. A ghost thief with no INI is a pretty easy kill.

Your making things personal again, why?

You keep on whining about stealth stacking, maybe your own L2P issue stems from that.

‘Hey, maybe conditions should just do no damage’. Do you still take yourself seriously in this discussion when you make petty remarks like that? Maybe condi’s should do no damage, so people like you can stop poluting this game.

I stated that no other build requires me to slot a very specific sigil (which, I might add, is close to useless out of this specific fight), that’s something different then what you’re trying to make me say.

Ghost thief is sub-optimal, as you so demeaningly stated to refer to another post of mine. Now, be fair, instead of childish, and don’t take that out of context.

A build, even if it is sub-optimal, should not be so imbalanced when you look at the fun both players involved in the fight should be able to experience. It is very adequatly described as ‘anti-fun’ for the opposing player. Anti-fun can be caused by a lot of factors, but a build being completely broken and having zero reasonable counterplay (which is probably why you like it so much) should never be the reason.

And everybody struggles against sub-optimal builds from time to time, especially in WvW, where glaring weaknesses to builds can be mediated by imbalanced stat distribution possibilities. also, a sub-optimal build used by a decent player can net you good results, while having fun. So there is no objection to using such a build, hell, I’ve posted several of mine in the past. The discussion you refer to wasn’t about that, it was about them simply being sub-optimal and recognizing that fact.

However, if I’d play Ghost thief, and you revealed me for 1/4 second, you would not kill me. I guarantuee it. It seems to me that your opponents have a L2P issue when they lose to you.

I am not “whining” about stealth stacking. I have simply indicated that this the reason why the Ghost thief exists. I have suggested various means as to how this can be addressed without making stacking impossible that would help to address this build specifically. I have listed others suggestions which I have stated my concerns on.

“Reveal” everytime a condition applied is just a bad idea all round.

As to your point on the 1/4 second reveal. The point is not to kill him in that 1/4 second. The point is the ini used to stack that stealth is now gone as is the remaining 12 or so seconds they have left from having done so. I am rather ambivalent towards this solution as I think there better ways . Oh and to your having to use a sigil that is of no use against everyone else. It not hard to have an extra weapon or two. I use a sigil on a build that only comes out at night. It works well.

Lastly , if you want to suggest people not make things personal when responding to a post, you should refrain from doing so yourself. Your posting history is full of such. I suggest you do a review.

But what happens to the Thief’s mechanic though? Part of being a Thief is the use of Stealth, a mastery of remaining hidden and ambushing/tricking your target, right? A lot of people seem to forget what a class is all about, and favor picking apart numbers and skills on a flat or face value. It’s ONE build, that like ANY OTHER can be countered, and killed. The videos I have seen of people roaming with this build, seems to be full of targets who, 1. Don’t make use of any real stun/condi clear/breaks, and 2. Make no effort in paying attention and being aware. Multiple people have discussed multiple things on how to beat a Ghost Thief, but seems people blind themselves against that, and prefer to keep beating the dead horse about, “OMG they’re in stealth and I’m taking damage!!!” or, “They can stay in stealth forever!!!”.

They’re not applying the conditions to you, the traps are, you’ve got Caltrops/Spike Trap/Trip Wire doing the conditions, the Thief is not touching you at all, hence all these, “But when X class uses X skill they’re revealed”, that’s because THEY are the ones hitting the target, even in the case of clones/illusions ect. those are meant to be carbon copies of the Mesmer, revealing the Mesmer because they are meant to be impersonating the Mesmer.

Few days ago I was roaming with druid. Suddently I received load of conditions. I removed them, placed stealth trap. Thief got revealed, but got away with shadowstep and shortbow. He kept me following for hour. I spend 12 traps and got him to 1/3 of hp once. It was like playing wvw with fractal instability: you receive stack of conditions every 25 seconds and all you can do it is to remove them and go on. Is that kind of build and play-style you want to defend?

This is how the majority of people complaining about Ghost Thieves react to being attacked. Keep AA spamming and don’t try to cleanse on the first sign of Condi Burst….

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcucSQHBI4 not my video

Hohou.1508:

Few days ago I was roaming with druid. Suddently I received load of conditions. I removed them, placed stealth trap. Thief got revealed, but got away with shadowstep and shortbow. He kept me following for hour. I spend 12 traps and got him to 1/3 of hp once. It was like playing wvw with fractal instability: you receive stack of conditions every 25 seconds and all you can do it is to remove them and go on. Is that kind of build and play-style you want to defend?

The part about him being stealthed at all times as those traps applied and the frustration from the same is understood but could you answer me this.

I speak in particular to the thief following you around for an hour , atttacking and fleeing immediately with shadowstep and SB.

What aspect of this upset you the most, given all thieves can do this ?. As example a power thief can stalk across the map, port in , lay a high damage hit on you that will do more damage then will those traps used by a Ghost and then get away with shadowstep and SB only to repeat again and again.

So what is the underlying issue? That the thief can apply damage, even if it does not kill you and do it every 25 some odd seconds without being seen.?

Or that the thief can aply damage and get away readily via the ports and SB.?

Or it a combination of the two. ?

Scenario assuming “applying conditions applies reveal” as a solution to Ghost thief.

D/P thief stacks stealth and stalks as they do today. Once they ready to attack with the steal they preload the needle trap and steal to target. Poison , bleeds vuln , confusion , immob and weakness all loaded on target. They can then , if wished use BP off pistol for blind allowing time to drop caltrops. They SS away and or use SB and then repeat 24 seconds later (or they can stealth AFTER all of those conditions applied .)

We have more than one voice scoffing at the notion that the proposed sigil of revelation would do any good because no one could kill a thief in 1/.4 of a second before he stealths again , yet it would not take me a heck of a lot longer to do this rotation and in particular if I proc this rotation just as any existing stealth runs out.

Would this address your concerns?

Ability to inflict high dmg without getting revealed. When power thief attacks me, he gets revealed, which gives me opportunity to strike back. There is no such thing when fighting Ghost thief. Only way to force him out of stealth is to use optional utility item which is very easy to predict and avoid. Standing in black powder doesnt rlly work, because you have to predict movement of invisible player and thieves with brain wont stack stealth near you. I even tried staff to interrupt stealth stacking, but 3rd skill got evade frames, so he wont hit you with heartseeker.

Hohou.1508:

Ability to inflict high dmg without getting revealed. When power thief attacks me, he gets revealed, which gives me opportunity to strike back. There is no such thing when fighting Ghost thief. Only way to force him out of stealth is to use optional utility item which is very easy to predict and avoid. Standing in black powder doesnt rlly work, because you have to predict movement of invisible player and thieves with brain wont stack stealth near you. I even tried staff to interrupt stealth stacking, but 3rd skill got evade frames, so he wont hit you with heartseeker.

Wll I can assure you this. The Ghost thief does not have to rely on any of his weapons to apply that condition damage. Even if there was a reveal on condition application he could apply this damage and immediately stealth without you having the time to do anything.

Power thief using weapons takes up TIME to get those rotations off (thus your ability to respond). Ghost thief can apply these conditions on the steal alone and immediately stealth.

Example. If I wished I could trait on my power thief hidden thief along with mug. If that thief stole to you he will apply the damage and heal off mug (plus any extra damage off PI or Sigil of draining if an interrupt generated and if he traited for this) and be stealthed.

Depending on armor of enemy and if you get an interrupt triggered you can generate many thousands in damage and this very hard to counter unless that initial steal avoided.

The “conditions application apply reveal” would work much the same way. The steal applies all those conditions and the thief can immediately stealth. How would you counter this?

The point I am trying to make, by way of example, is the solution being proposed by those advocating for “applying conditions will apply reveal” will not eliminate Ghost Thieves while it will cripple existing builds that use stealth.

It my opinion it a bad solution.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

apharma.3741:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

mulzi.8273:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Is there really a 5 page thread of a build that does nothing buy annoyance or troll people? Come on there are far greater things in wvw that needs to be looked at and people cry at this. It does nothing game breaking, it can’t do anything apart from kill people with no stun breaks/condi clear. I managed to run away from 2 of them on my power reaper.

Most of the folks that say this don’t reveal they are actually Ghost thieves in their signature. But nice try there buddy.

Eh? Are you implying that I am defending this build and run it or something?

Can confirm Fat Disgrace as far as I know doesn’t usually run ghost thief. He usually plays your standard DP daredevil that keeps trying to go for the mesmer before said mesmer oneshots him as soon as he steals.

That’s the 2nd time you said this. Havnt been 1 shotted in a long time by a mesmer. You’re 100% this is me snd not another thief? I also play s/d a lot too.

Yeah I remember you from GH, not been in a match up vs GH for a long time and roamed tbh. WvW is boring and Drgr/Psy/ERP ganking people all the time make solo roaming boring. Still respect TaG for generally not being kittenholes and always making an effort even if there’s no chance of winning and Salva is probably one of the best thieves on GH.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

This is how the majority of people complaining about Ghost Thieves react to being attacked. Keep AA spamming and don’t try to cleanse on the first sign of Condi Burst….

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcucSQHBI4 not my video

He does not move either. At that first attack you have to move out of the area as quickly as possible BFORE you try a cleanse on the first burst. This no different than having to react quickly to a power thief who strikes from stealth . You have to do something to prevent further damage FAST.

If the person could not do so because there no way to break the immob applied than that a shortfall with the build in question. By not getting out of there at the earliest possible moment he allowed the Ghost to apply followup conditions with his second trap and what looks like something off his rune with the heal.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

This is how the majority of people complaining about Ghost Thieves react to being attacked. Keep AA spamming and don’t try to cleanse on the first sign of Condi Burst….

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcucSQHBI4 not my video

I like the guys you tube comment, little did he know LOL

“This is an hacker bro.. 5 stack of confusion dealing over 5k dmg?! 4 stack of poison for 1k+?! SUREI have a full dire PU mesmer and I need to build up more than 18+ stack to reach the 5k+ dot.. IMO you should report this crap at….”

babazhook.6805:

sephiroth.4217:

OriOri.8724:

Shatters need to be traited to apply torment and confusion, I thought this was basic knowledge? If you had paid any attention to my posts, I want applying damaging conditions to cause revealed. Which would make this a non issue in the first place.

I thought it was pretty obvious the Mesmer is traited for conditions when we ARE talking about condition builds (any player with any shred of experience in this game would know these facts without it being spelled out for them, most people the context is enough)……. And if you read my posts, I was the one who suggested condi to reveal, kitten .

I really hate spelling it out but if you don’t understand then you don’t understand and I’m sorry I can’t help you with that.

Condition to reveal is a bad idea. It would break too many skills which would require revamp across the board and in particular for a thief.

It really immaterial to other classes which is why they so readily make the suggestion. They do not have the volume of stealth based skills the thief has nor are they as reliant on them.

Example. Black powder applies a pulsing blind. Why would a thief ever use it if it just reveals him from stealth? It supposed to be a smoke field so the thief can achieve stealth and it in fact defeats that purpose with the blind.

Remember last refuge and how it got so many thiefs killed? The same would happen with traps specifically if Deadly trapper specced. It why they never used traps before. They were a liabilty as Caltrops would become.

Deadly trapper. This skill is supposed to make one better with traps and improve on them . With forced reveal on a condition app it makes the traps a liability and the trait makes 3 of 4 traps worse. (See shadowtrap)

Blinding powder blinds and stealths. It used by many while in stealth to setup an attack. How does that now work with a forced reveal?

Cloaked in Shadow. This applies blind afer achieving stealth. It would seem pointless a trait if it just reveals again due to the blind.

Other examples abound.

It was suggested that in order to force reveals on application of conditions damage components be added to an application of the same on those where it does not exist. This whould make Ghost thief even deadlier as a single steal could be set up to load a whack of conditions wherein after applied the thief can just camp in stealth and wait for next steal cycle, This would allow the thief to apply as many if not more damaging conditions in one single attack than a Ghost theif using the multitude of attacks could do.

This would ultimately end with people drawing the conclsuion that steal and venoms are OP and call for those to be nerfed.

Damaging conditions. Damaging conditions should cause reveal. Blind doesn’t deal any damage so why on earth should it reveal you?

babazhook.6805:

Hohou.1508:

Ability to inflict high dmg without getting revealed. When power thief attacks me, he gets revealed, which gives me opportunity to strike back. There is no such thing when fighting Ghost thief. Only way to force him out of stealth is to use optional utility item which is very easy to predict and avoid. Standing in black powder doesnt rlly work, because you have to predict movement of invisible player and thieves with brain wont stack stealth near you. I even tried staff to interrupt stealth stacking, but 3rd skill got evade frames, so he wont hit you with heartseeker.

Wll I can assure you this. The Ghost thief does not have to rely on any of his weapons to apply that condition damage. Even if there was a reveal on condition application he could apply this damage and immediately stealth without you having the time to do anything.

Power thief using weapons takes up TIME to get those rotations off (thus your ability to respond). Ghost thief can apply these conditions on the steal alone and immediately stealth.

Example. If I wished I could trait on my power thief hidden thief along with mug. If that thief stole to you he will apply the damage and heal off mug (plus any extra damage off PI or Sigil of draining if an interrupt generated and if he traited for this) and be stealthed.

Depending on armor of enemy and if you get an interrupt triggered you can generate many thousands in damage and this very hard to counter unless that initial steal avoided.

The “conditions application apply reveal” would work much the same way. The steal applies all those conditions and the thief can immediately stealth. How would you counter this?

The point I am trying to make, by way of example, is the solution being proposed by those advocating for “applying conditions will apply reveal” will not eliminate Ghost Thieves while it will cripple existing builds that use stealth.

It my opinion it a bad solution.

Power thief with mug will deal max 3k dmg every 20 seconds. That would be annoying, yes, but it certainly wont kill you. Ghost thief can kill you if you dont cleanse all dmging conditions.
Increase cast time on traps and add direct dmg, add direct dmg to caltrops and increase its radius in wvw only.

The only time Anet steps in to balance anything in WvW is when it relates to zerg combat. Such as the Mesmer glamor nerf years ago or more recently the boon-sharing and Epidemic change.

So if you want Ghost Thief to go you need to ask Anet to buff it into something that’s useable (and OP) in Zerg/GvG scenarios, at which point Anet will nerf it into the ground ASAP.

nah just get a group of 10+ people to run it and kill zergs with it.

1>Damaging conditions is not the same as Conditions. If people want to make a propoasal for game changes it up to them to ensure their language accurate and the onus is not on the reader to assume they said one thing but meant another.

2>Mug in fact can hit for well over 3k dependent an armor of target. I have had base steals of 3000 off mug BEFORE PI and Sigil draining kick in which would better then double that.

3>Thief traps as comapred to traps of other classes are not OP. The damage is comparable or less and the cooldowns in the same ballpark. They do not warrant an increase in ICD.

4>The addition of Physical damage to damaging condition apps which will have to be done to ensure the reveal being requested on application occurs means that on a SINGLE steal a Condition thief can proc as many as 4 separate applications of damage. This means on a single steal a thief can generate 4 procs for venoms. This means as example an extra 4 poison apps and 4 torment apps can be added to everyhting else on a single steal by a condition thief. Not only that but if the thief shares that with fellow condition thieves , they will also proc these on a steal. (Using share each thief need only i one of skale or spider as example and both thieves will have it)

Do people really want that?