Guild Wars 2

this a bug needs fixing so it being fixed

Rambitshouse.8712:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

This is how the majority of people complaining about Ghost Thieves react to being attacked. Keep AA spamming and don’t try to cleanse on the first sign of Condi Burst….

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPcucSQHBI4 not my video

I like the guys you tube comment, little did he know LOL

“This is an hacker bro.. 5 stack of confusion dealing over 5k dmg?! 4 stack of poison for 1k+?! SUREI have a full dire PU mesmer and I need to build up more than 18+ stack to reach the 5k+ dot.. IMO you should report this crap at….”

if that is an hacker he is awfull… ive seen higher values…and u cant report “cheaters” , 1st Anet cant gather many info on them or will temporary ban them, second the build are almost hard to distinguish and ive seen even players with making my block(shelter) trigger 5-7k confusion per blocked hit during those 2 seconds, wich means a loose-loose situation, alot of thing in the game are easilly exploitable even w/o third party tools.
Still Its hard to know for the target if the ghost thief is hacking or not.

thief needs to be adressed to be something usefull besides stealth rezzer or dumb troll WvW gimmick..

someone once told me that if i equip one of these weapons it will give me truesight to the stealth enemies, haven’t tried it yet, too expensive for me to buy one

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lidless_Eye
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eye_of_Rodgort

That is why people are advocating for applying damaging conditions to apply reveal. Or do you just conveniently ignore those posts?

Straegen.2938:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Stealth is fine when you are forced to reveal yourself to actually kill your opponent. This ghost thief build is 100% stealth and can still kill you. That’s absurdly broken.

I disagree. A 3s window to kill an attacker with a host of evades and teleports before they go back into stealth for long periods of time is not a well balanced mechanic. Stealth stacking should be removed. At least then stealth builds would have to “come up for air” every few seconds allowing some counter play. It also eliminates the Ghost Thief.

You’re completely assuming that you can get right back into stealth every 3s after you leave it. Any form of CC will obliterate most thieves. If you take stealth stacking out of the game, you alter and change so much more than what needs to be changed. It’s like demolishing your home to fix a termite problem. It’s far from prudent.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Straegen.2938:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Stealth is fine when you are forced to reveal yourself to actually kill your opponent. This ghost thief build is 100% stealth and can still kill you. That’s absurdly broken.

I disagree. A 3s window to kill an attacker with a host of evades and teleports before they go back into stealth for long periods of time is not a well balanced mechanic. Stealth stacking should be removed. At least then stealth builds would have to “come up for air” every few seconds allowing some counter play. It also eliminates the Ghost Thief.

You’re completely assuming that you can get right back into stealth every 3s after you leave it. Any form of CC will obliterate most thieves. If you take stealth stacking out of the game, you alter and change so much more than what needs to be changed. It’s like demolishing your home to fix a termite problem. It’s far from prudent.

No, its extremely prudent. Thieves need a lot of changes made to them so that they aren’t reliant on these cheese mechanics.

The Game Slayer.7632:

You’re completely assuming that you can get right back into stealth every 3s after you leave it. Any form of CC will obliterate most thieves. If you take stealth stacking out of the game, you alter and change so much more than what needs to be changed. It’s like demolishing your home to fix a termite problem. It’s far from prudent.

Removing Stealth Stacking eliminates lazy play and allows for more counters to stealth play which has been a sore spot since launch. Stealth Stacking has made balancing the thief a nearly impossible endeavor. Anet has no chance to consistently tune skills/traits since they can land from an invisible enemy that disappears seconds later. A skill might be fine out of stealth, but on a stealth build it can quickly become OP.

Most players would still have relatively the same duration of stealth if they time their skills properly. Basically more skill required and eliminates builds like the Ghost Thief. Good players will hardly notice the change in most fights.

OriOri.8724:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Straegen.2938:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Stealth is fine when you are forced to reveal yourself to actually kill your opponent. This ghost thief build is 100% stealth and can still kill you. That’s absurdly broken.

I disagree. A 3s window to kill an attacker with a host of evades and teleports before they go back into stealth for long periods of time is not a well balanced mechanic. Stealth stacking should be removed. At least then stealth builds would have to “come up for air” every few seconds allowing some counter play. It also eliminates the Ghost Thief.

You’re completely assuming that you can get right back into stealth every 3s after you leave it. Any form of CC will obliterate most thieves. If you take stealth stacking out of the game, you alter and change so much more than what needs to be changed. It’s like demolishing your home to fix a termite problem. It’s far from prudent.

No, its extremely prudent. Thieves need a lot of changes made to them so that they aren’t reliant on these cheese mechanics.

Oh absolutely, however nobody ever suggests other changes in conjunction with a change to stealth stacking. Its just “NERF STEALTH STACKING” and that’s pretty much it. Which leaves us to respond with a laugh, as in order for a change to stealth stacking, many various other buffs would need to be made, and nobody wants to think about buffing a profession that they’re peeved about, even though it clearly would need some after the nerf they are requesting.

I got hit by ghost thief in WvW the other day. At first I thought I stepped into some kind of trap. But, my health kept going down and going down. I had to put my marks on the ground on me and the attacks stopped.

Perma stealth, never saw what was hitting me. I had to look at combat log to really see. I’ve never played a game where a stealth class can attack while in stealth. Usually for balance purposes, stealth class chars come out of stealth when they attack.

I’m sure there’s all kinds of “counters” for perma stealth in this game, but I don’t know what they are. I’ve read what a few have said in here about it. I think my marks were a good counter. It really got this stealth player off me and I went on about my business.

I am going to assume that i (a teef) am one of the only ones that wouldn’t really care of they remove stealth stacking. I don’t stack stealth and actually look for/thrive off of the revealed debuff (I love tripping a stealth trap)…but this is just my opinion.

OriOri.8724:

That is why people are advocating for applying damaging conditions to apply reveal. Or do you just conveniently ignore those posts?

Its just a bad idea all around and it has already been explained as to why.

I found a solution, it’s the only one have if I find myself caught out by this invisible assailant. Pop everything you can to get away and hope you get near your zerg in time.

OriOri.8724:

babazhook.6805:

OriOri.8724:

That is why people are advocating for applying damaging conditions to apply reveal. Or do you just conveniently ignore those posts?

Its just a bad idea all around and it has already been explained as to why.

No, it actually hasn’t. All that has been explained is that thief will need to be changed if this were to be implemented, which I know full well and have been advocating for thief to be redesigned regardless.

You guys keep defending clearly broken mechanics because you like to abuse them. Its that simple. Its not healthy for the game, and it needs to go. And yes, of kittening course that means some skills and traits on thief will need to be redesigned because of this change. That was a guarantee, so again I don’t know why you are acting as if I haven’t been admitting that.

Your last statement is patently false. Your Stating “you guys…” and then claiming this group “defending borken mechanics” shows you have already staked an adverserial position on this matter.

This is not simply a matter of tweaking a few skills. This is breaking a number of thief builds outside the ones that already dominate the game and in particular s/d , p/d and d/d.

It does little to staff and in reality little to d/p.

It breaks x/d because stealth made even harder and a reason so many abandoned that build is because it already too easy to stealth via d/p in comparison. It neuters the SA line which is already underutilized. It takes away some of the more skillful plays that are present for a thief and gives preference to ease of play usage.

I do not feel you play thief enough to understand this and how the various traits (such as CND, Hidden thief poison on steal) synergize. I do not believe “this will require other changes to correct this loss” as something that makes the suggestion anything more then a bad idea.

I do not make suggestions as to how mesmer or Druid should be neutered because I do not play those classes enough to understand how they work and how various skills mesh and rely on one another. YOUR problem is in objecting to the Ghost Thief, you seem to think you know how thief works better then the people that play the class do.

Far too many in making their suggestions as to how to fix this issue just do not understand the build itself and call for things like “damage to traps” or “removing trappers runes” as a fix. Applying reveal on condition application is very much in the same vein. It breaks more builds then it “fixes” and even the fix not assured.

I will try once again to get this through to you, since you keep insisting on either ignoring the issue or pretending like it doesn’t exist.

This is not just a problem with thiefs. It affects the entire game that they are able to break fundamental mechanics like this. I’m not trying to nerf thieves when I make this suggestion, which I why I stay away from their traps. I am trying to fix something that bypasses game mechanics. Other builds can abuse this too, and in the future there will undoubtedly be some builds that do so again. The only fix is to remove the ability to apply damaging conditions without breaking stealth.

It doesn’t matter if thief needs a lot of work were this to happen. The fact of the matter is that the ability to apply a damaging condition and not cause reveal bypasses the balancing mechanic wherein you are supposed to be revealed if you cause damage while in stealth.

It frankly doesn’t matter that thief abuses this more than other classes, the fact is that this needs to be fixed. And I would campaign just as hard for this if engi, or war, or guard, or rev, or any other class was the main abuser of this. I’m not targetting this at thieves no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. I’m trying to get Anet to fix the ability to bypass balancing mechanics.

And the only way to do that once and for all, for all current and future builds, and for all classes, is to make this as generic as possible. Which means the ONLY way to fix this is to make applying damaging conditions cause reveal.

Just because thief would need a major rework when this fix goes through doesn’t change that it needs to be fixed. So stop pretending like it does.

Turk.5460:

OriOri.8724:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Straegen.2938:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Stealth is fine when you are forced to reveal yourself to actually kill your opponent. This ghost thief build is 100% stealth and can still kill you. That’s absurdly broken.

I disagree. A 3s window to kill an attacker with a host of evades and teleports before they go back into stealth for long periods of time is not a well balanced mechanic. Stealth stacking should be removed. At least then stealth builds would have to “come up for air” every few seconds allowing some counter play. It also eliminates the Ghost Thief.

You’re completely assuming that you can get right back into stealth every 3s after you leave it. Any form of CC will obliterate most thieves. If you take stealth stacking out of the game, you alter and change so much more than what needs to be changed. It’s like demolishing your home to fix a termite problem. It’s far from prudent.

No, its extremely prudent. Thieves need a lot of changes made to them so that they aren’t reliant on these cheese mechanics.

Oh absolutely, however nobody ever suggests other changes in conjunction with a change to stealth stacking. Its just “NERF STEALTH STACKING” and that’s pretty much it. Which leaves us to respond with a laugh, as in order for a change to stealth stacking, many various other buffs would need to be made, and nobody wants to think about buffing a profession that they’re peeved about, even though it clearly would need some after the nerf they are requesting.

Oh, so much this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

OriOri.8724:

Which means the ONLY way to fix this is to make applying damaging conditions cause reveal.

Do you mean that the application of damaging conditions cause reveal? IE: Someone walking into a thief trap would reveal the thief who layed it.

Or the damage from conditions themselves would cause reveal? IE: Poison ticking for 100 damage for 10s from steal would have the ability to effectively keep a thief out of stealth for 10s?

I’m completely fine with the former. The ladder would completely obliterate stealth as a mechanic, and thereby send all game balance into chaos.

OriOri.8724:

I will try once again to get this through to you, since you keep insisting on either ignoring the issue or pretending like it doesn’t exist.

This is not just a problem with thiefs. It affects the entire game that they are able to break fundamental mechanics like this. I’m not trying to nerf thieves when I make this suggestion, which I why I stay away from their traps. I am trying to fix something that bypasses game mechanics. Other builds can abuse this too, and in the future there will undoubtedly be some builds that do so again. The only fix is to remove the ability to apply damaging conditions without breaking stealth.

It doesn’t matter if thief needs a lot of work were this to happen. The fact of the matter is that the ability to apply a damaging condition and not cause reveal bypasses the balancing mechanic wherein you are supposed to be revealed if you cause damage while in stealth.

It frankly doesn’t matter that thief abuses this more than other classes, the fact is that this needs to be fixed. And I would campaign just as hard for this if engi, or war, or guard, or rev, or any other class was the main abuser of this. I’m not targetting this at thieves no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. I’m trying to get Anet to fix the ability to bypass balancing mechanics.

And the only way to do that once and for all, for all current and future builds, and for all classes, is to make this as generic as possible. Which means the ONLY way to fix this is to make applying damaging conditions cause reveal.

Just because thief would need a major rework when this fix goes through doesn’t change that it needs to be fixed. So stop pretending like it does.

I will do this one more time.

It is a bad idea. The only reason you think it a good idea, is because it yours.

Fortunately even as you repeat the same non fix over and over again, the DVS at ANET are a bit more clued in.

This is not a violation of game mechancis by any stretch. It has been part of the game since DAY 1 by design. Hidden thief as example is one of the oldest traits we have and has always allowed stealth after poison applied and caltrops have operated in the same manner BY design since the game launched.

By DESIGN damage was removed from thief traps so they could maintain stealth when triggered. Added to that no one is “ignoring the problem”. My opinion is your proposed solution is a bad one and is not necessary.

Stop pretending this about stealth mechanics in general and not singling out thief when you know full well no other class relies on stealth as the thief does. You have also suggested a thief can dodge too much.

The Game Slayer.7632:

OriOri.8724:

Which means the ONLY way to fix this is to make applying damaging conditions cause reveal.

Do you mean that the application of damaging conditions cause reveal? IE: Someone walking into a thief trap would reveal the thief who layed it.

Or the damage from conditions themselves would cause reveal? IE: Poison ticking for 100 damage for 10s from steal would have the ability to effectively keep a thief out of stealth for 10s?

I’m completely fine with the former. The ladder would completely obliterate stealth as a mechanic, and thereby send all game balance into chaos.

Kiss hidden thief and Cnd>steal>backstab goodbye if that idea implemented. Kiss Cnd>steal>sneak attack on p/d to steal 5 boons and apply 5 bleed on the steal if that idea implemented.

The ones “perfectly fine” with it are those that play d/p and staff as it has little effect on them and these two weapons are already dominating. Bye bye unctachable and caltrops and traps for that matter. There a reason traps not used before and that was they would get thieves killed via the reveal at the wrong time (see last refuge and why it was hated).

The simple fact is this. In order to get around hidden thief and the cnd>steal mechanic the application of the conditions (such as the poison in DA line serpents touch) would have to occur AFTER stealth obtained using those mechanisms under this proposed solution. Otherwise it accomplishes nothing.

Added to that something like Caltrops becomes a “I dropped these caltrops and now I can not hide for ten seconds” as all an enemy need to is STEP in the field and the thief revealed.

Uncatchable trait becomes a handicap leading to silly game play where people run into the red circle to get a reveal.

It a bad idea. Consider thief builds outside d/p.

The Game Slayer.7632:

OriOri.8724:

Which means the ONLY way to fix this is to make applying damaging conditions cause reveal.

Do you mean that the application of damaging conditions cause reveal? IE: Someone walking into a thief trap would reveal the thief who layed it.

Or the damage from conditions themselves would cause reveal? IE: Poison ticking for 100 damage for 10s from steal would have the ability to effectively keep a thief out of stealth for 10s?

I’m completely fine with the former. The ladder would completely obliterate stealth as a mechanic, and thereby send all game balance into chaos.

The former only. Ticking conditions should not cause reveal. But applying them should.

Even if its only a 1 sec reveal, applying damaging conditions needs to apply reveal.

i still think stealth should not stack. The class weren’t meant to be used overstacking stealth with any possible combo, but to have access to constant short stealth access, so it cant keep being hidden all the time.

i still can understand why Anet hasnt implement this already..

the only cure for those is trap druid its a 50/50 chance 2 days ago a ghost thief killing roamers leaving spawn and i was one of them i switched to trap he got owned so quick of course the trick is Shared Anguish ,Empathic Bond , Druidic Clarity your pet will take some of the condis lay down flame , viper , spike and be ready to use entangle then healing spring that thief was down in few sec didnt see him after i waitted but didnt show again also dire trap/burn dh can do so much dmg to those thiefs

voodoo.7412:

the only cure for those is trap druid its a 50/50 chance 2 days ago a ghost thief killing roamers leaving spawn and i was one of them i switched to trap he got owned so quick of course the trick is Shared Anguish ,Empathic Bond , Druidic Clarity your pet will take some of the condis lay down flame , viper , spike and be ready to use entangle then healing spring that thief was down in few sec didnt see him after i waitted but didnt show again also dire trap/burn dh can do so much dmg to those thiefs

Terrible advice.
Trapper druid isn’t perma stealthed, if the thief is paying attention he won’t get caught off guard by your traps. Hell his main source of damage comes from dodging so there’s a good chance he’ll trip your traps without getting caught in them.
DH works as long as they are running the reveal trap but if you really want to counter a ghost thief you want to bring a p/p scrapper. You can easily reveal them and load them up with enough condi’s that they’ll melt before revealed ends.

Jim Hunter.6821:

voodoo.7412:

the only cure for those is trap druid its a 50/50 chance 2 days ago a ghost thief killing roamers leaving spawn and i was one of them i switched to trap he got owned so quick of course the trick is Shared Anguish ,Empathic Bond , Druidic Clarity your pet will take some of the condis lay down flame , viper , spike and be ready to use entangle then healing spring that thief was down in few sec didnt see him after i waitted but didnt show again also dire trap/burn dh can do so much dmg to those thiefs

Terrible advice.
Trapper druid isn’t perma stealthed, if the thief is paying attention he won’t get caught off guard by your traps. Hell his main source of damage comes from dodging so there’s a good chance he’ll trip your traps without getting caught in them.
DH works as long as they are running the reveal trap but if you really want to counter a ghost thief you want to bring a p/p scrapper. You can easily reveal them and load them up with enough condi’s that they’ll melt before revealed ends.

The tactic would work fine when we talking groups of players. Generally a ghost thief is not aware of what EVERY player in a group doing. 1v1 it will not work so well.

That said Engi/scrapper still the best bet . Other classes can use TAUNT to draw the thief out as well (ie pet skill via beastly warden for a ranger). If the goal is just to kill that thief it not all that hard to change up a build for just that engagement.

Jim Hunter.6821:

voodoo.7412:

the only cure for those is trap druid its a 50/50 chance 2 days ago a ghost thief killing roamers leaving spawn and i was one of them i switched to trap he got owned so quick of course the trick is Shared Anguish ,Empathic Bond , Druidic Clarity your pet will take some of the condis lay down flame , viper , spike and be ready to use entangle then healing spring that thief was down in few sec didnt see him after i waitted but didnt show again also dire trap/burn dh can do so much dmg to those thiefs

Terrible advice.
Trapper druid isn’t perma stealthed, if the thief is paying attention he won’t get caught off guard by your traps. Hell his main source of damage comes from dodging so there’s a good chance he’ll trip your traps without getting caught in them.
DH works as long as they are running the reveal trap but if you really want to counter a ghost thief you want to bring a p/p scrapper. You can easily reveal them and load them up with enough condi’s that they’ll melt before revealed ends.

While I agree, scrapper is pretty good vs thieves, the reveal skills seem pretty unreliable. I’ve been running a scrapper build for about a month and Detection Pulse never seems to apply reveal. I’ve hit many with it and it de-stealths them but most times they just re-apply stealth literally a second later, which wouldn’t be possible if they had reveal.

It seems Analyze only works to prevent an unstealthed target from stealthing. Which leaves only the Lock-on trait to actually apply Reveal to a stealthed enemy.

This is great. The “revealed on condi damage” idea would only benefit my DPS build. I can’t be the only teef (aside from my senpai) who uses the Revealed Training trait? I Assume im the minority of those teefs that would welcome more ways to get the revealed debuff

Having the reveal debuff on condi dmg ticks is imo, really lame.

Easy solution to tackle this Ghost Thief issue would be to simply add a minor direct damage component to steal, traps, caltrops etc.

ANET has done it before, I don’t see any reason why such a simple fix cannot be implemented again.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frost_Trap