Guild Wars 2

1. Skirmish time: 1 hours – 30 minutes. I think 2 hours is too long.

2. Outnumbered buff = Give huge point per tick (PPT) and points per kills (ppk)

Example:

Blue servers 50 players vs green server 100 players

Even blue server different with green server is only x2, but the player different is huge.

unlike 10 vs 20 (only 10), or 20 vs 40 (only 20), the different is so huge in 50 vs 100 (50 players different)

So i suggest, instead of x2, x3, outnumbered buff, give the buff exactly according to the player differents. If its only has +1 player, give small buff to the outnumbered server. if the different is 10, 20 or even 50, give more buff if more numbers.

Moreover,

Example:

red 10 players vs blue 50 players vs gree 100 players.

red will have outnumbered buff on blue and green PPT/PPK

blue will only have outnumbered buff on green PPT/PPK

3.Righteous Indignation = Make it 1 or 2 minutes. Because 5 minutes is too long and boring to wait

4. Sentry = Can be upgraded, add more guards. And can we have PPT points on captured sentry?

5. Bloodlust node: Bloodlust give PPT. So there is small fight all the times.

6. MVP Boss: MVP boss will give PPT to the server that made a last hit kills.

7. System to auto count players numbers on wvw for each server:

A system will auto count number of players for each server on all 4 borderland (red, blue, green, ebg)

if there is a population gap, outnumbered buff will be given

This systems will repeat every PPT tick (2 min)

Player who come late before beginning of each PPT tick need to wait in que. And can enter wvw map on the next que

System will auto detect disconnected (DC) players and add players on the waiting que smartly.

If there is no player on the que? Can developer create a smart systems that react on the go, so if something like this happened, the outnumbered buff can be adjusted on the go? If not, the buff will stay until the next tick. Just 2 minutes thou.

Giving incentives to not play a map (or leaving it) will fix WvW for sure.

The outnumbered “buff” should give players real worth while reasons to play, no matter what the odds are. The current system just encourages them to log off, which is bad for this game.

The current buff is an absolute useless joke, anybody must agree on that. Of course no “buff” can solve issues if there really is just 1-2 players on the map and both enemy servers have enough to make orange swords or more.

The outnumbered side should not reward the enemy servers any points if it is killed. This should be obvious.

The outnumbered side should be rewarded 3-5x more points per kills if it somehow manages to score a kill. This is still going to be so small amounts compared to points per tick from structures.

Outnumbered buff should increase defenses of structures, but it should not make the players stronger as the latter can lead to serious balance problems. For example while you are outnumbered each camp has 2 extra guards, each tower has 5 extra archers (3 of them within range of lords room) and so on. Or the gates/walls have bonus hp while you are outnumbered. Giving any bonus stats to players is a bad idea.

Outnumbered buff should give the players much better access to useful loot e.g. use a totally different loot table, which actually drops some useful things like crafting materials, exotic items, ascended chests, instead of broken chips and fangs.

Outnumbered is NOT A BUFF it’s an EFFECT that serves two main purposes. To indicate when the other servers have more people on a map, and to give some small incentives for players to continue playing on the map. Suggesting any advantages to a server, and keeping people off the map are terrible ideas.

Also here is some reading for those that want to know more:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outnumbered

The outnumbered buff doesn’t say much about how the actual situation on a map looks like. Buffing it without changing how it is applied can create more unfairness than balance. Better a buff that does nothing than one that can make it worse.

X T D.6458:

Outnumbered is NOT A BUFF it’s an EFFECT that serves two main purposes. To indicate when the other servers have more people on a map, and to give some small incentives for players to continue playing on the map. Suggesting any advantages to a server, and keeping people off the map are terrible ideas.

Ehm. How are servers able to keep off players from the map? The moment more arrive the map for better rewards etc., the buff wears off. This really doesn’t sound like a big problem at all.

The small incentive the outnumbered buff now has is really so small, it doesn’t matter. If the buff doesn’t give the players really anything concrete, it just leads to empty maps or at least 1 side out of 3 is missing from the fights.

Of course an even bigger issues is the server linking, which massively affects the popultion, but I don’t want to steer this thread to off topic.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Ehm. How are servers able to keep off players from the map? The moment more arrive the map for better rewards etc., the buff wears off. This really doesn’t sound like a big problem at all.

Simple with some organization. It would basicly only lead to 50 man zergs roflstomping a border, then leave maybe 5 peeps to delay the enemy. The enemy have to bring 20+ to recap, so you will be outmanned all the time. Then when its all capped… return with the zerg.

This type of PPT boon will only lead to people being yelled at in chat and pushed away from WvW because they’re ruining it for the server.

I would rather couple the outnumberd buff to the difference in VPs. If the gap crosses certain values (e.g. 6, 12 and 24) the inferior servers receive a certain tier of outnumbered buff granting better PPT/PPK gain and more personal rewards for the players (bags and batches for conquering any kind of objects).

Dawdler.8521:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Ehm. How are servers able to keep off players from the map? The moment more arrive the map for better rewards etc., the buff wears off. This really doesn’t sound like a big problem at all.

Simple with some organization. It would basicly only lead to 50 man zergs roflstomping a border, then leave maybe 5 peeps to delay the enemy. The enemy have to bring 20+ to recap, so you will be outmanned all the time. Then when its all capped… return with the zerg.

This type of PPT boon will only lead to people being yelled at in chat and pushed away from WvW because they’re ruining it for the server.

True, but this exploit could be mostly avoided by taking into account of all active players on all 4 maps. Unless your total number of players in all 4 maps is the lowest, you don’t get this special outnumbered buff. In other words if you have 50 man zerg in map A and you have just 5 players on maps B, C, D. And let’s say both opposing players have 40 players spread evenly to 4 maps = 10 players per map. None of these map B, C and D give you the special outnumbered buff to that server which has the 50 man zerg even if enemy is outnumbering them 10 vs 5 in all those 3 maps, because their total number of players is 5+5+5+50 = 65, which is clearly bigger than 40. But perhaps this gets too complex, even though as a programmer I can see that it doesn’t require more than just few lines of code.

But nevertheless the biggest problem right now is that servers with vastly different population are in same match up. The new server linking thread discusses this, so I won’t comment more on this.

I will not support suggestions that include giving a illusion that population is balanced.

For the millionth time, outnumbered IS NOT A BUFF, ITS AN EFFECT. The two are not the same, so stop trying to treat it the same way. A buff implies that an advantage is given, which outnumbered does not and should not do. Nor should it ever be used as some kind of mechanic to manipulate a servers active playerbase on a map.

It’s just an icon to tell ya crap is going to hit the fan very soon. Nothing more nothing less.

@ nerovergil.5408

Basically you’re trying to use the Outnumbered effect in a way to balance in Points (PPT/PPK). There are a few reasons I don’t this will work, but mainly it is because I don’t think it will solve the problem itself.

The reason I don’t think it will work is because no matter how much Point rewards (or any other rewards) the fact is that most players doesn’t enjoy playing 10 vs 100, or 5 vs 20 etc. It just plain isn’t fun, so unless you’re rabid about Points (I haven’t met many) it just isn’t incentive enough to play against the odds.

Also, you might say that 10 vs 20 deserves a x2 points, but with equal skill among the players in question, it is much harder than just 2x as hard to get points as 10 vs 20. Gut guess would be about x4, but I really can’t say for certain. Those 20 have multiple tactics to take over 90% of the map, and those 10 can at best hold onto a corner/defensive position (keep or tower + 1-2 camps). Anything more, and the 20 can either outnumber them as 20, or split up to 10+10 and take things twice as fast, or keeping the 10 busy with 10, while the rest split up and take the map.

Anyway, the main issue really isn’t points. The real issue is that it should be FUN to fight against the enemy no matter the numbers. Basically a handicap system. As long as people can play 10 vs 20, and both feel it is a fun and engaging fight, and not just a pushover, people will play despite the points. But as other point out, I’m against any kind of handicap that interacts directly with combat/stats etc, so it would be hard to say how to solve it.

@ Deniara Devious.3948

Sadly, even if Outnumbered effect gave x10 the points, it wouldn’t matter much. Though I do agree on no PPK when Outnumbering.

But as others have said, Outnumbered isn’t an buff, it’s a warning. I definitively agree it could be solved much better, but it does do that function decently.

Not a buff. It’s a warning with a little added benefit for those who brave the risk.

joneirikb.7506:

@ nerovergil.5408

Basically you’re trying to use the Outnumbered effect in a way to balance in Points (PPT/PPK). There are a few reasons I don’t this will work, but mainly it is because I don’t think it will solve the problem itself.

The reason I don’t think it will work is because no matter how much Point rewards (or any other rewards) the fact is that most players doesn’t enjoy playing 10 vs 100, or 5 vs 20 etc. It just plain isn’t fun, so unless you’re rabid about Points (I haven’t met many) it just isn’t incentive enough to play against the odds.

Also, you might say that 10 vs 20 deserves a x2 points, but with equal skill among the players in question, it is much harder than just 2x as hard to get points as 10 vs 20. Gut guess would be about x4, but I really can’t say for certain. Those 20 have multiple tactics to take over 90% of the map, and those 10 can at best hold onto a corner/defensive position (keep or tower + 1-2 camps). Anything more, and the 20 can either outnumber them as 20, or split up to 10+10 and take things twice as fast, or keeping the 10 busy with 10, while the rest split up and take the map.

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Anyway, the main issue really isn’t points. The real issue is that it should be FUN to fight against the enemy no matter the numbers. Basically a handicap system. As long as people can play 10 vs 20, and both feel it is a fun and engaging fight, and not just a pushover, people will play despite the points. But as other point out, I’m against any kind of handicap that interacts directly with combat/stats etc, so it would be hard to say how to solve it.

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@ Deniara Devious.3948

Sadly, even if Outnumbered effect gave x10 the points, it wouldn’t matter much. Though I do agree on no PPK when Outnumbering.

But as others have said, Outnumbered isn’t an buff, it’s a warning. I definitively agree it could be solved much better, but it does do that function decently.

It is no fun when there is no goals.

What to fight when you cant win? Huge PPT different give moral breakdown on competitive players.

the purpose of this is to minimize the PPT gap.

Example:

100 enemy players fighting at your spawn points, you only have 20 players. Your home keep has been taken away.

So, with huge PPK in outnumbered buff, you can fight.

enemy kill you only give them 1 points. But when you kill them, you get more points!! let say 100 points per 1 of enemy killed!!! So they wont dare to fight at your spawn points!

Now PPT, if u can ninja 1 camp on this situations, the tick of the that camp will be crazy high!! that makes the PPT different become closer!!

nerovergil.5408:

It is no fun when there is no goals.

What to fight when you cant win? Huge PPT different give moral breakdown on competitive players.

the purpose of this is to minimize the PPT gap.

Example:

100 enemy players fighting at your spawn points, you only have 20 players. Your home keep has been taken away.

So, with huge PPK in outnumbered buff, you can fight.

enemy kill you only give them 1 points. But when you kill them, you get more points!! let say 100 points per 1 of enemy killed!!! So they wont dare to fight at your spawn points!

Now PPT, if u can ninja 1 camp on this situations, the tick of the that camp will be crazy high!! that makes the PPT different become closer!!

You say “goals” and talk about points, now that is a matter of perspective. Now obviously I only know a small subset of players in WvW, but I don’t know a single one that care about points. The ones I know are mostly split evenly between roaming/fights, and guild/server pride. So obviously I have some trouble understanding why “points” would motivate anyone. Especially for us on guest-servers.

It is fun when a match-up is tied to the very end. But in all those cases I’ve found it fun because of the fights, because both or all servers battle it out until the end, and thus usually fairly even in numbers. If our server is tied with the enemy, and I see we’re winning on PPT, because we outnumber enemy, I’m not motivated to go into WvW at all etc.

What I see causing the most moral breakdown’s are being outnumbered and not feeling you can do/accomplish anything. That is when the pugs and fair-weathers leave the maps. The people I see left are the hardcore roamers, and whoever likes to fight outnumbered. I don’t think those would qualify as competitive (in points anyway) players.

And no matter how much you minimize the PPT gap, the fights are still NOT FUN when one side outnumbers the other. And until they address this (somehow, no idea how), they can adjust Points as much as they want, most people are going to leave the moment they’re outnumbered. This is where I think they should focus on developing, and possibly somehow make a handicap system (again, don’t know how, it’s tricky).

• Server A = 100 players on EBG
• and spawncamping server B
• Server B = 20 players
• Server B will get +100 PPK per kill (Outnumbered)
• Server A will get none. (Outnumbering)

In most cases that will result in Server B not getting any kills, Server A will just blob up and you can’t really kill any players before they kill some of yours back to rally or speed rez etc. So won’t make much difference, you might get 1 for 100 ppk.

And then you have an organized guild group of 20, that knows how to zerg-bust, and just kills all 100 for 10 000 PPK, and blows the score out.

In a way, I’d kind of like to see that, but it would pretty much hand WvW over to the GvG guilds, as they’re the ones that can pull that off reliably. The pugs and fair-weathers would quickly leave the game mode the moment they found a GvG guild on map.

// And then you have an organized guild group of 20, that knows how to zerg-bust, and just kills all 100 for 10 000 PPK, and blows the score out. //

20 cant kill all 100… 50 maybe and the other will ran away

10k ppk? its over 9k!!!!

tone down outnumbered ppk.. it must be high, but not too high

WVW is all about PPT, if u dont want ppt, just want fight, go play 1v1 spvp server..

nerovergil.5408:

WVW is all about PPT, if u dont want ppt, just want fight, go play 1v1 spvp server..

Actually, WvW is all about sandbox open world PvP game.

So it is all about going out and do what you want to do in such a mode. As long as it is not considered griefing. After all, all those people that like to play for fights also bought the game, and no-where does it say in the game, rules, account agreement etc that you must play WvW maps for the points.

If your great passion in the game is to make map-queue tonic parades, sure go for it.

This is why trying to ficus balance around Points is futile.

If you’re getting beat in Points, the system should ideally put you down a tier, until you’re “competitive” again. If you start handicapping the points too much, then there will be even less movement between tiers, and a server that is collapsing will have a really hard time moving out of a tier it no longer belongs in.

Ex: If blackgate rolls low on Glicko and gets a T2 match, and then the two other servers gets pile of bonus points from outnumbered handicaps, and scores almost competitive with black gate. They will hinder Blackgate to get back up to T1 again. While at the same time, the two other servers in T2 will still be greatly outnumbered, all the time.

Most people don’t think it is fun to be outnumbered.