Guild Wars 2

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

Lets give them more support and fine-tune the new BL instead of asking them to go back to the old BL.

One way of fine-tuning the new BL

Problem: Too big

Solution: Merge more servers, expand the population limit allowed per map so that the map is more filled up. Fill up the map with people and you won’t find the map so big anymore.

Everyone will have a role to play.

no no no no no no no no no no no

if you build a house blindly from beginning to end and nobody wants to live in it because the kitchen is outside, the bathroom is in the basement, and the bedroom is in the front entryway…do you just hire an interior decorator?

if there is a huge pile of poop on the ground, will smoothing out the edges make it not poop?

I agree. The new border is quite pretty and its not as bad as most people originally thought. If they remove the automated turrets, popup walls and PvE events then its quite allright even if it is a bit too large.

Akkeros.1675:

if you build a house blindly from beginning to end and nobody wants to live in it because the kitchen is outside, the bathroom is in the basement, and the bedroom is in the front entryway…do you just hire an interior decorator?

Hahaha very well put.

And I add: Going back to the old Alpine BL would be an excellent PR move by ANET.

Think on it, ANET is grasping straws in their attempt to fix WvW. The community is largely filled with negativity and player base in WvW is dropping like flies.

However, if ANET comes back and pulls a “we are sorry” and reverts the Alpine Borderlands (and I would add the reset time as well), they can instantly get a portion of their image back with this acknowledgement of a mistake (and with action on it to boot) and then bring the community closer to try and work on a WvW fix.

Let’s be frank as well.

No matter what ANET has in store for this “WvW Overhaul”, any changes they bring will be filled with bugs, new issues and will not instantly get a WvW golden age player base back. Even if the changes are “very good”.

So, whatever they bring might be a step in the right direction, but actually putting WvW in a good spot will take months, several months at that.

But the longer ANET delays doing the Overhaul, the longer ANET delays in taking any action that is majorly well accepted by the community and the longer ANET takes to do anything to restore the WvW community’s faith in them – well the further any “fix” to WvW gets, simply because players will give up and move to other MMOs or simply because the level of player frustration will reach a point that no matter what amazing fix they bring, it just won’t be good enough for the high expectations the players will have.

At the point we are today, I can already see posts (and lots and lots of them) saying “We wait 1 year for this overhaul and it is only this crap? Only this?” or “The guy literally took 1 year to fix culling, and another year to implement it in the game and it still works like crap?”

In sum, bringing back Alpine Bordelands would fix WvW? Hell no. But it sure would help to get some positivism and support from the player base rather than trying to reach for the starts with over-hyping this “WvW Overhaul”.

ANET is, right now, just setting up the perfect public execution of WvW mode with how they are doing things.

I don’t mind the new maps, but it would still be nice if there was a ‘rotation’ to please both sides. For example, have the deserts one week, apline another. Or do it monthly instead. I’ve seen commanders that prefer one map over the other and even both of them. Not to mention changing the maps once in a while will make it feel all fresh. It would take more resources, yes, but would still add some spice to it

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

Lets give them more support and fine-tune the new BL instead of asking them to go back to the old BL.

I’m not sure I get your argument at all. Going back to the old BL should cost nothing in design. It is already a finished product. It’s merely a matter or rolling it back. There is nothing impractical about that.

Beside, it’s not like they asked us if we would like these changes or took in consideration the feedback they got. We were put in front of a change many of us never asked for. If I take your house and give you one you don’t like as much are you an ungrateful person to say you didn’t want to change the house and even less for the one you were given without having a say about? No. It’s the same here. Had they gave us an extra content instead of replacing one the majority loved it would be different.

People asked for fixes to known issues. Not a new everything.

The only problem there is about rolling back is the admission of a failure that the crushing majority know for a fact anyway. For a reason or another you apparently can’t say you made a bad move in that business.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

Lets give them more support and fine-tune the new BL instead of asking them to go back to the old BL.

Why is it not practical? Because Anet would have to admit their methods are producing many disappointed players. There are very major and very common complaints that have remained rather consistent throughout the years yet we get a giant, dusty maze of a map that’s on autopilot. I think WvWvW vets are some of the most resilient players this game has (leaning towards “had”) and there are those who have done a lot to create community and content where Anet has failed miserably. Asking players for more at this point while Anet insists on taking the same secretive, bullheaded path is down right insulting. It is Anet who needs to support their freaking playerbase this time around.

i think you guys use the word ‘majority’ a little too loosely.
We only have a few players commenting in the forums.
There may be the real ‘majority’ that is okay with playing on the new BL but with some fine-tuning.

EremiteAngel.9765:

i think you guys use the word ‘majority’ a little too loosely.
We only have a few players commenting in the forums.
There may be the real ‘majority’ that is okay with playing on the new BL but with some fine-tuning.

This can’t be true. Look at how empty the desert borderland is.
You may argue that it’s because the players are all scattered across the huge map.

Just weeks before HoT was released when garrison is under attacked, the map would be instantly queued with everyone pouring in like crazy to try to save it. With the commander shouting in map chat and ts and everyone trying to grab a siege, the kitten was so intense.

Now, in new desert borderland, even scouts hate that place. No one even care whatever happened to the garrison and that’s the situation in T1 NA now.

Akkeros.1675:

no no no no no no no no no no no

if you build a house blindly from beginning to end and nobody wants to live in it because the kitchen is outside, the bathroom is in the basement, and the bedroom is in the front entryway…do you just hire an interior decorator?

if there is a huge pile of poop on the ground, will smoothing out the edges make it not poop?

Excellent post. Great analogy.

Plus I heard the “no no no” voiced in my head by that dredge from one of the dungeons. “no no NO”

Regardless of anet sinking a lot of cost into the new bl’s people are voting with their feet.
They can choose not to listen to this forum, but it won’t change the customer/seller relationship. I hope a rebalance of severs helps shuffle the population, but I can’t see how that will reshuffle eb<>bl.
+If they do put alpine back will people come back? are they still playing the game in fractals or some such? Anet will know. If they have left left then they risk losing those who have adopted desert bl’s. We are seeing more people play bl’s now but its all ktrains. -I won’t go. So there are now 2 separate WvW groups on our server as some bl’s wont do EB…

EremiteAngel.9765:

i think you guys use the word ‘majority’ a little too loosely.
We only have a few players commenting in the forums.
There may be the real ‘majority’ that is okay with playing on the new BL but with some fine-tuning.

I’m not basing my opinion on this thread or the forum at large. I’m basing it out of what I see, and hear in game. The new maps are not only desert themed. They are deserted period.

Also, it’s a big coincidence that the population in WvW before HoT and after it’s launch is akin to Hiroshima before and after the bomb. It’s really hard to not see the damage done. We had a WvW life before. Now, not so much… Probably because the majority like it too much…

Give us the rotation we were originally promised.

Regardless of anyone’s opinion on the quality of the desert bl, the entire reason some people wanted new maps was to have a variety. Completely removing the old map is not variety.

Rotate the old maps back and measure which is more popular. A good game is designed to provide endless fun for its players, not to cater the developer’s own ambitions.

Sunk costs are a pretty easily understood concept; look it up.

/thread

i think you guys need to consider that its not just simply Anet admitting that the change was not well accepted (if true).
You could possibly end up costing someone’s job…
Are you going to make someone get fired?

EremiteAngel.9765:

i think you guys need to consider that its not just simply Anet admitting that the change was not well accepted (if true).
You could possibly end up costing someone’s job…
Are you going to make someone get fired?

Nobody want that. However, it’s a poor reason to do nothing about it.

That is why I was suggesting to fine-tune the current BL

EremiteAngel.9765:

That is why I was suggesting to fine-tune the current BL

It would be better to bring back Alpine during said fine tuning.

Agree with OP no need to revert to old stuff.

Once you learn the map it’s OK. Using the portals and proper routes gets you around north and middle in a decent time. The way its designed really give advantage to playing from top of map to bottom (home team advantage).

Needs just a little work to be pretty good. Looks great.

The new BL’s a sunk cost. It has pretty much zero redeeming value. Just delete it.

I just wanna see an earthquake that shows the ground level in all the canyons and the oasis up to the same level as everything else.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

Lets give them more support and fine-tune the new BL instead of asking them to go back to the old BL.

Problem is that they did not listen what people said in beta tests. As usual Anet used to be deaf dumb and blind and in the end of the day the new BL maps failed horribly. They simply don´t want to see what WvW players want. It´s like with this Esports thing, It seems to be in the head of some Anet suits that WvW is pve or that GW is an Esports game. They totally ignore the fact what WvW players tell them or how viewer counts on matches are. If somebody denies reality on such a scale, discussion is pointless because they don´t want to listen.

If they really wanted to put effort in WvW they should talk to guilds that play WvW competitively, be it for points OR for kills. But of course that would imply that a developer is interested in the opinions of the people playing their game which we all know, won´t happen.

New Bl map for me suffers from same problem as Eso cyrodiil its just too big and empty most of the time just goes to travelling where nothing at all happens.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

What? Are you 12 years old? Go look at Google and go find the list of projects they have closed down (everything from Knol to Wave) because they were not working, not well thought through, basically failures to varying degrees.

That is what an actual business does that is run in a competent manner, it doesn’t cling to its mistakes and worry they might offend some employee that for some reason you think has the level of mental development of a 12 year old and not be able to cope with the reality that something didn’t work out, just because it took time and effort.

zinkz.7045:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

What? Are you 12 years old? Go look at Google and go find the list of projects they have closed down (everything from Knol to Wave) because they were not working, not well thought through, basically failures to varying degrees.

That is what an actual business does that is run in a competent manner, it doesn’t cling to its mistakes and worry they might offend some employee that for some reason you think has the level of mental development of a 12 year old and not be able to cope with the reality that something didn’t work out, just because it took time and effort.

I think you’re right…I’m too naive…there is no love when it comes to business…

EremiteAngel.9765:

zinkz.7045:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

What? Are you 12 years old? Go look at Google and go find the list of projects they have closed down (everything from Knol to Wave) because they were not working, not well thought through, basically failures to varying degrees.

That is what an actual business does that is run in a competent manner, it doesn’t cling to its mistakes and worry they might offend some employee that for some reason you think has the level of mental development of a 12 year old and not be able to cope with the reality that something didn’t work out, just because it took time and effort.

I think you’re right…I’m too naive…there is no love when it comes to business…

I appreciate the compassion you demonstrate. I think it is a trait too many sadly and mistakenly perceive as a weakness. However, don’t you think it’s going to cost even more ppl their job if the game continue to displease the customers?

Its practical if they want people to return to the game – after all its what a gaming company SHOULD want with their game? happy players?

And after reading so many threads on this forum that i lost the count and so many people that were 100 % wvw players not playing the game more, yes they would earn more money to take back the old maps.

Just look at this https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Do-you-want-the-old-maps-back/page/3#post5960893:

They have 3 viable BL maps, thoroughly playtested.

Original BL with lake in middle, just tweak it a bit here and there and fix the bugs.

Alpine BL 2.0, one with ruins in middle, again, tweak it a bit and fix a few bugs.

The only tweaks those 2 need is to get rid of or reduce the zig-zag switchbacks between home spawn points and garison, + move keep waypoints closer to defenders spawn so that when there is a call out, defenders actually have enough time to load the map and move as a coherent group instead of only those with the best rigs trickling in then all the rest.

The new desert BL: tone down (and I mean wayyyyyyyyyyy tone down) the effects and frequency of the mid PVE event, get rid of some of the vertical travel barriers when traveling in most direct routes from waypoints to major objectives, reduce shrine effects, reduce some more vertical travel obstacles and get rid of the dead ends, get rid of some of the lava and other areas with effects around keep and gari (not all of it, having some is actually pretty cool, just no where near as much) and of course fix remaining bugs.

Just do that, and now you have 3 distinct maps to rotate, hell, with the proper amount of terrain and mechanic adjustments you could even take the EOTM map and throw it into the rotation once every great while for a week here and there.

So they don’t have to do anything like a full new map, in addition, if there is no automatic system in place, they can even have 1 guy manually load the new maps and get them ready for a weekly reset, then make and announcement prior to doing so on the official forums, not reddit or tweeter or some some other place, and take an extra half hour for reset time to give themselves the space, just let the players know ahead of time.

Many of us will welcome some extra time to go bio + get more coffee or whatever so we get ready to play, having a half hour reset instead of couple minutes because its manual vs current auto mode is a very small price to pay as long as its announced and well known beforehand.

And now you can have 3-4 well tested maps, in rotation.

I am very much against raising the map cap limit as that leads to even larger blobs, so when we have like 20-30 vs old map ques 2x 60ish, it was still winnable somewhat on occasion, now we have 20-30 vs 100ish map ques which makes the game completely unplayable, such as was the case last night, if you raise it more, we’ll still have 20-30 but vs 2x 120ish or 140ish map ques for a total of 30 vs 280 ? How can anyone win with that? I would in fact like the map caps lowered back down to 60ish, so the blobs are smaller while performance increases.

reduce the amount of servers, rotate maps, reduce map caps, solves a LOT of problems right there and its doable without major resource commitment (reasource = manhours)

Now, if A-net screwed up real bad and for example can’t do rotating maps because they completely messed up on hardware / software set-up to do so even manually, then I am sorry, but the person who is responsible for that, should be fired.

In manufacturing, when an engineer, operator or even supervisor and managers mess up real big and cause major losses to production, they get fired or at minimum demoted to a position which will not allow them to cause any more harm. I don’t see why should someone in gaming industry not get fired for causing major loss of customers.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

Lets give them more support and fine-tune the new BL instead of asking them to go back to the old BL.

It is completely practical. They said in the beginning they were not removing the alpine maps, they were going to keep them in the rotation. How about they " rotate" back to alpine and leave it " stuck" there while making actual PvP maps.. send these DBL maps to PvE where they belong and make us some actual challenging, fun, strategic PvP focused maps that WvW deserves and mix those into the rotation instead?

There is too much wrong with the DBL to " fine tune" them. The terrain has to be changes the size has to be changed, the mechanics have to be changed, the building placement has to be changed.. it would just be easier to start over than to make these maps playable they are so bad.

A PvP map should have you spending more time in actual PvP action than looking for it. If it does not do accomplish that simple aspect, it is not " fixable".

@OP:

Your logic is really bad. No one cares how much effort ANET put into the maps. This is a game. The only thing people care about is whether it is fun. The old maps were more fun.

It should say something when in last night’s reset in T2, we had a 50 person queue on EB and ZERO queues anywhere else.

WvW -ers had suggestions, but it’s gone, no normal changes, now more than half of the wvw-ers are gone… That’s good that only 2 server has very high population on EU?! About 3-4 weeks ago, 5-6 server was on very high population… what does that tell you people?! WvW people were in majority, and still are, Anet don’t want to realize it, until it’s to late… to late means bye bye Gw2

style.6173:

It should say something when in last night’s reset in T2, we had a 50 person queue on EB and ZERO queues anywhere else.

What, thats still low. 110 man queue 1h after reset on FSP EU, lol.

EremiteAngel.9765:

i think you guys need to consider that its not just simply Anet admitting that the change was not well accepted (if true).
You could possibly end up costing someone’s job…
Are you going to make someone get fired?

What do you do when a restaurant serves you “bad” food? Or a doctor treats you wrong? Or someone sells you a malfunctioning product? Do you accept a broken computer just like that?

What you are talking about is childish. I feel you are either naive, or less accumulated in years of your life. I paid money for this game. I spent my hours. So it is my RIGHT to expect what I (and many many many others) desire. Do you even log into WvW? Because in my server, nobody likes the new maps.

If the PR team and designing team did their job right, this map problem would not exist. It is their “job”, and they have the resources. So they should fix this problem. It is their job to fix it. But since some problems are beyond fixing, they should return to old borderlands. (in my opinion).

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

Lets give them more support and fine-tune the new BL instead of asking them to go back to the old BL.

At this point i dislike the new map so much I would advocate making all borderlands into the EB map, and the current EB mapslot into a modified EotM map. That would be better than three desert(ed) borderlands, and a stuffed EBG.

It’s not just the map though. The map gets all the hate, but it’s the auto-upgrades, the PvE event, the increased PvE elements throughout the map, and the removal of guild upgrades that were earned prior to HoT. Add to that the forced PvE that all guilds must do to unlock any new upgrades, to gain any of the new ascended, and to make any of the new foods, and you have an angry, disenchanted player-base. A player base that just wants to be able to WvW.

some of the arguments here remind me a lot of what you see with stock market crashes.

“I lost 90% of the worth of my stock when the course crashed, if i sell the stock now all these loses will be real so i am going to hold on to it and hope that it will go back up”

cutting the loses is a viable thing and should usually be done. However i feel that even reverting back to old BL wont revive wvw.

There were just a lot of old wvw players waiting for some good overhaul, the new map was the last straw for them so they left when it did not deliver. Rolling back wont get these people back. because there have been no good changes to wvw i can remember in the last 2 years, and things have just gotten worse with autoupgrades and instant Waypoints.

Also a lot of wvw ers who left have by now probably found some new game to play.

I feel like the powercreep of the new professions is a much stronger turnoff than the new map for proper wvw. Some (revenant, guardian, necro) get buffed super hard, while my main ele gets a kick in the nuts again.

I hope that their resurgence update is huge because that’s what is need for WvW. Would be nice if we have each borderland different as well but it’ll take time for a 3rd style borderland to be made.

Pride.1734:

I agree. The new border is quite pretty and its not as bad as most people originally thought. If they remove the automated turrets, popup walls and PvE events then its quite allright even if it is a bit too large.

All they need is to fix it.
People want to change back to old Alpine because was a faceroll map for fast karma train.

Aeolus.3615:

Pride.1734:

I agree. The new border is quite pretty and its not as bad as most people originally thought. If they remove the automated turrets, popup walls and PvE events then its quite allright even if it is a bit too large.

All they need is to fix it.
People want to change back to old Alpine because was a faceroll map for fast karma train.

I like to learn that the reason I want to go back is because I want a faceroll karma train… seem legit.

As for fixing, there is so much to fix I’m genuinely questioning the point of it.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Aeolus.3615:

Pride.1734:

(…).

(…)

I like to learn that the reason I want to go back is because I want a faceroll karma train… seem legit.

As for fixing, there is so much to fix I’m genuinely questioning the point of it.

^Must admit, i do understand that and agree at some point…

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

Lets give them more support and fine-tune the new BL instead of asking them to go back to the old BL.

For who? The old borderlands maps and code still exist, there would be no problem going back and some of the players who have left would return.

The new map is not as bad as we had feared, but that doesn’t make it good. It needs some work and revision, some way for people to get around better and preferably some simplification. Even now, several months in use, I am still finding new bits.

Akkeros.1675:

no no no no no no no no no no no

if you build a house blindly from beginning to end and nobody wants to live in it because the kitchen is outside, the bathroom is in the basement, and the bedroom is in the front entryway…do you just hire an interior decorator?

if there is a huge pile of poop on the ground, will smoothing out the edges make it not poop?

This.

If an investment does not pan out, is a failure, it is perfectly sensible to write it off, consider it a learning experience, and try again.

Throwing good money after bad is generally a recipe for disaster. There is a reason for the military aciom, “never reinforce a defeat.”

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

So you think instead of doing something that would bring some good will and positivity to a game mode that is 99 percent dead is a bad idea and just doubling down on the giant mess they made because…they made it is a good idea?

Your house is burning down, but man, since it is already burning down lets not put the fire out because that fire did so much work already it would be a shame to see that put to waste.

some people…

EremiteAngel.9765:

i think you guys need to consider that its not just simply Anet admitting that the change was not well accepted (if true).
You could possibly end up costing someone’s job…
Are you going to make someone get fired?

So someone makes a terrible decision and as a consequence your company starts hurting and losing customers. That person now deserves a pat on the back? I am not calling for anyone to lose their job but Anet is a BUSINESS, not a campfire we all can sing around.

EremiteAngel.9765:

zinkz.7045:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Anet must have spent a lot of effort devising and creating the new BL.
Asking them to go back to the old BL is taking a huge step back and wasting all the time and effort they put into designing the new one.
Do you think that’s sensible? Are you asking for something that is impractical?

What? Are you 12 years old? Go look at Google and go find the list of projects they have closed down (everything from Knol to Wave) because they were not working, not well thought through, basically failures to varying degrees.

That is what an actual business does that is run in a competent manner, it doesn’t cling to its mistakes and worry they might offend some employee that for some reason you think has the level of mental development of a 12 year old and not be able to cope with the reality that something didn’t work out, just because it took time and effort.

I think you’re right…I’m too naive…there is no love when it comes to business…

Business is what it is, you can get sued if you don’t do your best to improve your company’s earnings.

Then anet has a tendancy of shoving it’s corporate ‘fingers’ in it’s ears and going la-la-la-la hoping that in the end everyone will just accept what it’s doing. That has meant a lot of people leaving, one of my best GW2 friends left just before Christmas because they couldn’t take any more anet kitten.

Sack someone responsible? That is the least they could do.