Guild Wars 2

I’ve been in a few open VoIP servers for WvW across a few servers. One thing that really really bugs me is the commanders that lose their cool and start shouting at their guildies and the puggies when things start going badly. Now, I realize that WvW can get pretty intense at times, and stress levels increase, especially when you are ultimately responsible for the success of a group of 30 or more people.
But commanders have to remember that these people are not their gremlins to be chastised for failure. They are real people that are in this to have as much fun as possible. I can tell you, the motivation to try to have fun goes down pretty quickly when Mr.Commander expresses his displeasure in the worst possible way by mouthing off for 2 minutes. They are not all at the MLG skill levels and reaction times you want them to be. People are going to see you are not in control of the situation and start leaving and doing other things. As the commander, they ultimately take responsibility for getting the group into the bad situation whether they mis-read the enemies intentions/numbers/whatever. Most of them realize they are being an kitten and apologize profusely afterwards. I understand that sometimes commanders have to make the best of a bad situation, such as being grossly outnumbered etc and they are essentially doing damage control.
Good commanders keep their cool and I respect the hell out of the ones that command well. Communication and making everybody understand their goals is key.
What else do you think make good and bad commanders? No name-dropping please.

EDIT: Changed my stance on whether it is the commanders fault when the group fails. I was quite harsh i suppose^^

You do realize that a pug zerg has the combined IQ of a fly, right?

Venereus.9473:

You do realize that a pug zerg has the combined IQ of a fly, right?

Flies can zerg better sometimes…

I agree with OP that commanders have to keep their cool, but that goes for everyone really. I don’t agree that when things go bad it’s entirely the commanders’ fault.
Situations are going to arise when things just don’t go according to plan and who’s fault it really is can’t just be pinpointed on the commander. We all know that this game changes minute by minute and no one can really predict where or how strong enemy forces are until you’re already committed to battle. (well, I suppose 15v1 is a pretty sure bet…)
I’m sure every server has it’s good commanders and not-so-good commanders, but all willing to lead the way. There are also some good followers and not-so-good followers, so if a good commander get’s 10/20 not-so-good followers then that might only be evident after the first battle is lost.
Frustrations are bound to spoken out on, either on VoIP or chat, but let’s just all be grown up enough to move on and try and resolve our differences in a civilized manner.

At the end:
Good commander – good communication and insanely good knowledge of all that is WvW. Working to better past failed results.
Bad commander – little communication and blaming the group for failures.

I dislike the commanders that bark orders at people and act as if they are better than everyone else, simply because they have a 100g badge.

Also the people who have a tag but don’t really feel entitled to have it, the ones who lack confidence.

A good commander is someone who understands the game and who can remain calm under pressure.

Sometimes bad situations are all thats left, when timezones change and your left with a 10vs60 situation and your job as a commander is to slow down the loss of everything on the map.

But yeah not much point yelling at militia, just do the best you can do, that goes for commanders and people who follow them

Some bad commanders go to other BLs and abuse the commanders there for not defending or doing something. When in the BL they were just in all they did was yell at pugs because they just got the game. It’s rude and badly handled.

On a similar note:

We are running out of commanders willing to turn on their tag because of all the abuse they get. Commanders should definitely keep their cool, but so do the people that want to follow a commander. Eventually all commanders will just stick to leading their guild groups as their guildies might actually behave in a civil manner and are willing to forgive the occasional mistake or frustrated outburst.

I personally can’t imagine anybody wanting to sacrifice themselves and put on a commander tag and attempt to herd the cats that are unwilling to get on TS or read /s, /t and /m, don’t pickup supplies (besides from towers of course) and just auto attack gates all day long, then moan and whine the moment they don’t get their way (suddenly they figure out how the chat system works)

multivira.7925:

On a similar note:

We are running out of commanders willing to turn on their tag because of all the abuse they get. Commanders should definitely keep their cool, but so do the people that want to follow a commander. Eventually all commanders will just stick to leading their guild groups as their guildies might actually behave in a civil manner and are willing to forgive the occasional mistake or frustrated outburst.

I personally can’t imagine anybody wanting to sacrifice themselves and put on a commander tag and attempt to herd the cats that are unwilling to get on TS or read /s, /t and /m, don’t pickup supplies (besides from towers of course) and just auto attack gates all day long, then moan and whine the moment they don’t get their way (suddenly they figure out how the chat system works)

I read your post and immediately thought “that guy is a fellow Gandaran!” and sure enough, HAI TDA!

Noobix.3958:

I also believe, that when things do go badly for the group, it is almost always entirely the commanders fault.

I agree with much of what you said, but this part is just incorrect.

1) WvW is a dynamic environment and no matter how good you get at reading the map and the movement of the enemies, there is always surprises.

2) Sometimes there is no right answer. You do your best, farm as many as you can, slow them down, but ultimately not every fight is going to be a victory even if you do everything right.

3) Commanders giving the best orders are still going to do poorly if only half the people follow the orders.

Ultimately in past games we have all used trial and error to determine who is best to follow, who you should never follow, and who you should just put on ignore. Just because this game has a means of buying a blue taco does not mean we should not follow the same instincts as we have used in past games.

A good commander uses their tag as a rallying point for the group, keeps people focused, and has to look at the big picture at all times.

A commander is not the end-all be-all authority, not a god, nor should they be expected to save everyone or be successful 100% of the time…

Good commanders shouldn’t talk much. Not in text anyways. They should be too busy reading the map and assessing each situation. Maybe they can talk more via voice comms. But really, its not the commanders job to train people. It comes with experience and common sense. WvW is pretty simple. It seems pretty complex when you first start playing, but its not long before you can read a map and know exactly whats going to happen next. Then the pin is just a rally point for the main force.

For me I run solo, defend, escort yaks or run with a small havoc group. I’ll pick up anyone I can along the way when I want to hit more substantial things. But Im frequently watching the map and the commanders movements and predicts whats happening so I know when the zerg is going to be in a major confrontation I am there to help most of the time. Im the guy who just tried to 1v10 you and you thought I was an idiot before my allied zerg ran right over you when you were busy chasing me and trying to farm a badge off me.

Problem I see the most is the 100g false sense of authority and ego boost. IMHO good commanders are defined by their guild group that accompany them. You ever see a commander with [blank] and not many [blank] around him in coordination then you’re best off looking for one that does. WvW requires teamwork, a commander as a individual means nothing.

The “buy a commander tag” system is a flaw.

For the troops:

There are people who don’t respect commanders and that is a real problem. If you can’t follow a commander, then go to another borderland or do something else. It is wrong not to respect the investment they are making in assuming responsibility and giving their time. When things go very wrong, they are most often the ones that are blamed, and if that is not voiced, I’m sure they take defeat personally.

There are alot of qualities that mark good commanders, and some commanders are better at some aspects of battle than others. Some are great at using map chat. They let you know what they are doing, what they plan to do next, and are willing to hold your hand, reminding you to get supply, etc. If you don’t use VOIP or you need that kind of direction, follow that commander.

Others are gifted at making decisions on the fly. There is a commander on our server that I love to follow; I would go so far as to say that I have never seen someone with such a keen sense of positioning and timing. Because of these abilities, he will often change things up in the middle of a battle. This generally works fine for people in VOIP, but those that rely on map chat are lost.

When this happens, he gets easily irritated and begins berating them. I don’t think he realizes that the main reason they are not complying is because they are not receiving his directions.

For the Commanders:

Be positive; if people aren’t following your directions, try to figure out why. You will never be truly successful if you alienate your troops.

Pugs are in wvw to have fun, not to be in the army.

U don’t give them orders, u just have fun WITH them.
If u do this u will see that they are actualy good at the game when u explain to them wat u are trying to do.

sostronk.8167:

Good commanders shouldn’t talk much. Not in text anyways. They should be too busy reading the map and assessing each situation. Maybe they can talk more via voice comms. But really, its not the commanders job to train people. It comes with experience and common sense. WvW is pretty simple. It seems pretty complex when you first start playing, but its not long before you can read a map and know exactly whats going to happen next. Then the pin is just a rally point for the main force.

For me I run solo, defend, escort yaks or run with a small havoc group. I’ll pick up anyone I can along the way when I want to hit more substantial things. But Im frequently watching the map and the commanders movements and predicts whats happening so I know when the zerg is going to be in a major confrontation I am there to help most of the time. Im the guy who just tried to 1v10 you and you thought I was an idiot before my allied zerg ran right over you when you were busy chasing me and trying to farm a badge off me.

i disagree, if u don’t talk much as a commander u are doing it wrong.

U can’t expect from people that they know wat u trying to do.
explain things beforehand, remember that 90% of those people are playing the game to have fun.

Noobix.3958:

I’ve been in a few open VoIP servers for WvW across a few servers. One thing that really really bugs me is the commanders that lose their cool and start shouting at their guildies and the puggies when things start going badly. Now, I realize that WvW can get pretty intense at times, and stress levels increase, especially when you are ultimately responsible for the success of a group of 30 or more people.
But commanders have to remember that these people are not their gremlins to be chastised for failure. They are real people that are in this to have as much fun as possible. I can tell you, the motivation to try to have fun goes down pretty quickly when Mr.Commander expresses his displeasure in the worst possible way by mouthing off for 2 minutes. They are not all at the MLG skill levels and reaction times you want them to be. People are going to see you are not in control of the situation and start leaving and doing other things.
I also believe, that when things do go badly for the group, it is almost always entirely the commanders fault. As the commander, they ultimately take responsibility for getting the group into the bad situation whether they mis-read the enemies intentions/numbers/whatever. Most of them realize they are being an kitten and apologize profusely afterwards.
Good commanders keep their cool and I respect the hell out of the ones that command well.
What else do you think make good and bad commanders? No name-dropping please.

I’m pretty sure that those who lose their “cool” more often than not are still in their teen years, or still have that mentality.

People, it’s called free will. If you don’t like a particular commander and his yelling, find another one. Natural selection will weed out the bad ones when they find they have no one following them. Kinda hard to do anything if you don’t have the bodies. That, in turn, will establish an acceptable behaviour to emulate when some commanders get more of a following than others.

That said, these guys shoulder a boatload of abuse in whispers you don’t even see. If they’re struggling, offer to help. Squash the negative nellies, and be supportive of folks who are often juggling 100 things at once. And tell them they’re doing a good job if they are — so many times we just follow and don’t give feedback. They need to hear it too.

Bad commanders will:

Put on a speed signet and get upset when other professions have to rely on swiftness boons to keep up.

Tag along with other commanders

Troll from the jump puzzle

Run, or escape combat without giving direction to the zergball/guild squad

Always play offense

Recommend/demand that players only run specific professions

Doesn’t seem like a very constructive thread, but I agree with Jayne. If you come across a commander who yells and has temper tantrums, then find another one to follow. Or better yet, don the blue dorito yourself, and see if you can do a better job

SCHOFIELD’S DEFINITION OF DISCIPLINE

The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instructions and to give commands in such a manner and in such a tone of voice as to inspire in the soldier no feeling but and intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due others cannot fail to inspire in them regard for himself; while he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect toward other, especially his inferiors, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself.

They make everyone at West Point memorize this.

Martrim.1078:

i disagree, if u don’t talk much as a commander u are doing it wrong.

U can’t expect from people that they know wat u trying to do.
explain things beforehand, remember that 90% of those people are playing the game to have fun.

Which means that 90% should be on the same level of thought that you are…

I prefer pug commanders that are there for the overall presence and go with the flow.

I remember one recent example with one that was inside a keep, ready to outside and attack the ones assaulting. It was a constant hail of “on me, on me, gather on me!!!”. Even when he had most people in the keep, he still demanded all on him. I was constantly thinking “just go out the door already, we’ll jump them from above at the same time and take them in the rear!”. But oh no, we couldnt be on the wall. We had to be with him. It was painfull to see as half the pug literally jumped around out of impatiance. It could have ended badly, lol.

He should have just went to the door and said “we go in 5” or something.

What guild commanders do is a whole other matter of course.

Jayne.9251:

People, it’s called free will. If you don’t like a particular commander and his yelling, find another one. Natural selection will weed out the bad ones when they find they have no one following them. Kinda hard to do anything if you don’t have the bodies. That, in turn, will establish an acceptable behaviour to emulate when some commanders get more of a following than others.

That said, these guys shoulder a boatload of abuse in whispers you don’t even see. If they’re struggling, offer to help. Squash the negative nellies, and be supportive of folks who are often juggling 100 things at once. And tell them they’re doing a good job if they are — so many times we just follow and don’t give feedback. They need to hear it too.

I didn’t think I would come in here agreeing with Jayne, but here we are.

No matter how well prepared or knowledgeable you are, kitten will hit the fan occasionally, and no matter how well you do consistently, someone will hate your guts. Most commanders have a line of haters a mile long, and it can get frustrating at times.

That being said, it is up to the commander to stay cool under pressure. No point in yelling at pugs. kitten happens, though.

Good commanders, pug or not, communicate, but more importantly, LISTENS to what everyone is saying. If you’re attacking or defending a paper tower, and someone says that X fully upgraded tower is under attack, you need to be smart and mature enough to assess the situation and be ready to leave if the current offensive is not worth it.

Also don’t take yourself or your role too seriously, ever, this is a game and first and foremost the point is to have fun, and make it possible for the people following you to have fun too.

TallDan.6350:

I dislike the commanders that bark orders at people and act as if they are better than everyone else, simply because they have a 100g badge.
.

So don’t follow them?

Commander is a rough job, particularly one’s that are trying to lead pugs to glory in which case a portion of followers are probably not on teamspeak, a mix of under level toons, random mix of classes traits that may not be the most optimal for wvw, etc. etc. All this while having a blue TARGET ME Dorito above their heads as the enemy is focusing them.

/respect to all Commanders

Silas Drake.8946:

Problem I see the most is the 100g false sense of authority and ego boost. IMHO good commanders are defined by their guild group that accompany them. You ever see a commander with [blank] and not many [blank] around him in coordination then you’re best off looking for one that does. WvW requires teamwork, a commander as a individual means nothing.

The “buy a commander tag” system is a flaw.

your just describing a wvw guild, some servers don’t even have those

If people don’t do what I tell them to, I will calmly explain to them that they do not deserve a commander, and that I am leaving the map.

If they want to whine about that, then so be it.

Funny commander rant! starts at the 1 minute mark

Ive found that it doesn’t take long to weed out the commanders who only bought the tag so they could have the ego boost by everyone following them, there was a commander about a month ago who would shout orders to a zerg following him/her and as soon as the enemy showed up he/she would waypoint out and let us fight ( win or lose ) then demand that the zerg regroup and run with them again, needless to say I haven’t seen this commander in about 3 weeks now, im guessing they went to a different server,

BAD commanders get seen and ignored.
GOOD commanders get seen and followed.

Disagree with the OP:

A good commander is one who can either:
1. Defend points
2. Capture points

A great commander can do both.

If a commander yells and you do not like it, follow someone else.

Well, I have beefs on both sides of the commander icon. Yes, people will choose to follow you or not based on your success and treatment of people. Yes, I agree that people whisper awful things to you in the middle of a siege or after. Hindsight is 20/20 so give me a break here. I have had my icon for a long time and I think i’ve turned it on maybe once or twice since December because of the random people that think you spent 100 gold and don’t have a clue what you are doing….When people ask me to turn on my icon I just say i’m retired and respectfully decline. If you don’t like the hate then do this too.

Now on the otherhand I can’t stand it when a commander is running around and stumbles upon my group and starts to give us orders. I don’t care if you are the best commander on my server I’m not going to have you boss us around b/c you have an icon. I believe this expectation of authority is the main reason the icon has developed such a negative vibe. The icon isn’t earned so you still have to earn the respect of your server or no one will follow you.

My suggestion, and something I did when I first got my icon, was to find a seasoned commander and work with them to develop good tactics. Ask the commander if you can run your icon along side them to develop a relationship with the server. Once you have earned your stripes through training and developed relationships then you can come on a map and people will start to work with you. Finally the sign of a good commander is the one that keeps their cool and always has a plan B. Also, they learn from their mistakes and don’t allow themselves to mindlessly attack the same way everytime.

I agree the yelling and mid fight disagreement is bad form for anyone, including commanders.

This thread makes me happy to know how awesome our Commanders are in TC. Everyone is mostly happy and having fun in our server-wide Mumble.

scootshoot.6583:

TallDan.6350:

I dislike the commanders that bark orders at people and act as if they are better than everyone else, simply because they have a 100g badge.
.

So don’t follow them?

Commander is a rough job, particularly one’s that are trying to lead pugs to glory in which case a portion of followers are probably not on teamspeak, a mix of under level toons, random mix of classes traits that may not be the most optimal for wvw, etc. etc. All this while having a blue TARGET ME Dorito above their heads as the enemy is focusing them.

/respect to all Commanders

I wouldn’t, I was simply answering the Op question: “What else do you think make good and bad commanders?”

Ketharius.9018:

This thread makes me happy to know how awesome our Commanders are in TC. Everyone is mostly happy and having fun in our server-wide Mumble.

CD community has become pretty awesome too!

I guess I’ve been pretty lucky both on SBI and Kaineng. I’ve seen some incredible patience from most of the commanders and I’ve seen some of them take flak from people in chat that would make a lot of people blow up, but they keep their cool and do their jobs. They might have to take a break when the frustration gets too high, but a few hours later they’re back again, working hard to accomplish goals sometimes against much larger numbers. I’m sure most servers have at least a few comms like that. If not, that’s too bad.

If a commander starts cursing and shouting at those following him, I just leave and find a new map. If they’re going to act like a moron, I’m going to find someone else to follow.

1) It’s a game. It’s a very intense game that can be taken seriously….but it’s still a game.
2) Commanders with no respect for those following them don’t deserve to be followed…even if they’re technically “good” commanders.
3) Often times the foul-up was the commander’s.
4) Commanders do not own us as players. We all paid the same amount of $ to buy GW2. The superiority complex needs to die.

Recently got a commander icon, although I have been playing WvW since the game came out, I have a lot of knowledge regarding WvW and what to do but I find a collective decision is the best, I come up with a few solutions and put it to the people I am leading and the majority rules that way its everyones fault if it goes wrong. For example I made a decision to lose a fully upgraded bay to hold a t3 garrison, hills and north towers the majority ruled in favour and it worked out we managed to hold the rest of the map till the opposing enemies left our border all in all a success, I suggest most commanders try this

Silas Drake.8946:

Problem I see the most is the 100g false sense of authority and ego boost. IMHO good commanders are defined by their guild group that accompany them. You ever see a commander with [blank] and not many [blank] around him in coordination then you’re best off looking for one that does. WvW requires teamwork, a commander as a individual means nothing.

The “buy a commander tag” system is a flaw.

So, by your logic, the commanders that lead the militia then are bads?

Jeknar.6184:

Silas Drake.8946:

Problem I see the most is the 100g false sense of authority and ego boost. IMHO good commanders are defined by their guild group that accompany them. You ever see a commander with [blank] and not many [blank] around him in coordination then you’re best off looking for one that does. WvW requires teamwork, a commander as a individual means nothing.

The “buy a commander tag” system is a flaw.

So, by your logic, the commanders that lead the militia then are bads?

You know how it is I am sure Jek, everyone talks about the guild group that led the charge to the Keep…No one saying anything about the pugs that defended 2 towers and capped another all the while…..

Not sure how it is in T1-6 but in 7 & 8 you will be commanding pugs most of the time. There are a few exceptions, the WvW guild groups etc, but most of the time it is pugs getting things done, 5+ guilds working together etc.

We have actual commander training sessions and accreditions to permit commander tag use amongst top guilds in jq. Very very rare to find commander tags in JQ from a top form guild during na,eu,sea,ocean,etc timezone where incompetency arises. Mistakes are incidental to perfection.

King Amadaeus.8619:

You know how it is I am sure Jek, everyone talks about the guild group that led the charge to the Keep…No one saying anything about the pugs that defended 2 towers and capped another all the while…..

Not sure how it is in T1-6 but in 7 & 8 you will be commanding pugs most of the time. There are a few exceptions, the WvW guild groups etc, but most of the time it is pugs getting things done, 5+ guilds working together etc.

IKR… Hold a tower for hours against endless hordes of Sorrow’s Furnace expecting an reinforcement that will never arrive, while your guild leader and a huge chunk of your guild is farming the JP (cough Mend cough)… And all you get is a yelling after you lose the tower…

The biggest thing to remember is if u are following a commander then listen to what they say and do it. If you don’t wanna do what they are saying then either don’t follow said commander or don’t complain if u die or get left behind. Also get on VoIP. It not expensive to buy a pair of headphones. You don’t have to n able to talk just b able to listen. It also doesn’t take much CPU power or internet speed to have the game and a VoIP running. I use to do its on a 1.5 m connection with no problem

Jeknar.6184:

King Amadaeus.8619:

You know how it is I am sure Jek, everyone talks about the guild group that led the charge to the Keep…No one saying anything about the pugs that defended 2 towers and capped another all the while…..

Not sure how it is in T1-6 but in 7 & 8 you will be commanding pugs most of the time. There are a few exceptions, the WvW guild groups etc, but most of the time it is pugs getting things done, 5+ guilds working together etc.

IKR… Hold a tower for hours against endless hordes of Sorrow’s Furnace expecting an reinforcement that will never arrive, while your guild leader and a huge chunk of your guild is farming the JP (cough Mend cough)… And all you get is a yelling after you lose the tower…

Ha I used to hate those nights…but you know they gotta have siege for those epic 30 minute defenses of useless towers…Tis good for the badge farming though on their end I guess…..One well placed PB though and it all goes to hell in a handbasket.