Guild Wars 2

nothing.7941:

No it’s not, not in the way you mean anyway.

Care to elaborate please?

In all the people that assume I suck at WvW, that I hate PvP, that I simply can’t hack it and feel entitled to this achievement….

Nobody has addressed the fact that the JP has no relevance to WvW; it doesn’t play like WvW, it doesn’t affect the scoring of WvW, it plays more like a sPvP map than WvW.

If the goal of putting an objective in WvW is to get people to participate, why not put 3 kites, one in each borderlands. Pick a tower and drop it in all 3; these are attainable goals and actually encourage people to WvW, not sit in a JP and gank people. That tower will suddenly become a hotspot for the week and will probably result in some of the most epic battles WvW has seen in a while.

As it stands, putting the objective in the JP does NOT further the stated goals because the player experience is not indicative of what the dev has very clearly stated they are supposed to experience. THIS is the meat of the argument; that what Anet has done is add a “griefer” playstyle to the list of endorsed play styles because this is the only justification for the chosen layout.

Maybe I am just stuck in the good old days where WvW was competitive but civil; when Yaks Bend let Sanctum of Rall take a fully-upgraded keep unopposed so they could reclaim an orb that had been stolen by a hacker, then SoR let them take it back. That, to me, is the spirit of WvW; competing without resorting to dirty tactics, fighting to win and prove that you are the best, not making people’s lives a living hell so they never want to come back.

I’ve done my achievement; I did it again for my spouse, and I’ll do it again for my kids. It took me 4 hours of waiting in the EB queue for one of those attempts, and a total of about 12 hours. While I was in the JP, I experienced no content that was even vaguely reminiscent of WvW; it had far more in common with playing WoW on a PvP server.

I challenge ANYBODY (Including an ANet representative) to explain why the Obsidian Sanctum should be considered a part of WvW. Start with explaining how it affects the WvW scoring, or WvW strategies, and so on. Keep in mind that awards of badges and siege weaponry blueprints can be acquired without ever setting foot in WvW (my daughter has both from achievement chests and yet she has never entered WvW) so that alone is not a justification. The fact that the entrance is located in EB is likewise not a justification because I can enter sPvP from anywhere, or WvW from Lion’s Arch, but those zones are not part of the respective content types.

Anybody that quotes or references this post without either supporting my rationally-established and justified perspective or attempting to address the challenge in the prior paragraph is trolling; I’ve given reasons why I view the content a certain way, you cannot disagree with me without establishing that my basis or trail of logic is flawed; this is how logical debate works. Anything less is trolling.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

I don’t actually understand how Obsidian Sanctum is a WvW map. Sure, you get to it from WvW, but the only thing it has in common with that game-mode is the 3 different groups of players. I see the world aspect of it, but where is the versus? Really, it’s just a pointless 3-way free-for-all over a reward that is not at all mutually exclusive. Unlike actual WvW, there is no particular reason to kill another player other than loot bag acquisition, “trolling,” and self-defense. Why do you expect everyone to want to fight over the reward when the jumping puzzle is structured so that it’s not beneficial to do so. How do you expect players to not look at campers as griefers when there isn’t even a good reason to shut off access to the reward chest. Frankly, given the large amount of time the puzzle can take when it is being camped, the end reward isn’t even worth the effort under such circumstances.

Agreed…I actually think a WvW map based somewhere like Obsidian Sanctum could be really interesting, with the traps and such. The trouble is, OS doesn’t really feel or act like a WvW map. There are no points to hold or defend, no supply, nothing in common with the regular maps. As it stands now it exists in a weird halfway-between world, part ordinary jumping puzzle, part pvp arena.

I’d like to see those two aspects split: no JP chest, or the puzzle itself moved into the PvE realm with the chest, and keep the map, with some reworking, as PvP or WvW zone. That way the JP-ers get their puzzle and chest, and the PvP-ers get their PvP, without either getting in each other’s way.

It was moved to its own map because of people complaining that those doing the jp were taking up valuae slots from those that wanted to do WvW.

PvP is part of the jumping puzzle while you like it or not. Plenty of people go there for duels or to pvp and do have fun. It is very similar to WvW in the sense that without numbers, you’re going to get steamrolled.

Monsoon.2589:

Ayrilana.1396:

It was moved to its own map because of people complaining that those doing the jp were taking up valuae slots from those that wanted to do WvW.

And they STILL do take valuable queue slots. Try to get to EB tonight at 9pm in T1

…T1…
hope it helps

Why are people only complaining about the kite in the EB JP? The real problem is that kite in the cliffside fractal. I entered the fractal thing for the first time to go look for it and some robot with about a million HP kept pew pewing me with lightning that hit for around 5k. Most OP thing I’ve ever seen. It would be easier to go 1v10 against thieves in the EB JP than trying to kill that thing.

People wants to play without playing.

In next patch we will see:
- Autoevents: they starts and then they finish. Ofc you win.
- Jumping Puzzle: Just jump baby. A magic crates will happears at you feet
- World vs Door: The Lord gives you the tower’s keys, then you can dinner with the enemy. Including strippers. No AC’s allowed. They stink.
- Bash the thieves! Becouse every learn to play issue needs his scapegoat! (pegi18+)
- New spvp map: try the new chat while holded to the ground. You can’t move. Or fall!
- Living story: added new spoiler button. You can press and discover how finish the story. Audiobook avaiable.

Laurelinde.4395:

Agreed…I actually think a WvW map based somewhere like Obsidian Sanctum could be really interesting, with the traps and such. The trouble is, OS doesn’t really feel or act like a WvW map. There are no points to hold or defend, no supply, nothing in common with the regular maps. As it stands now it exists in a weird halfway-between world, part ordinary jumping puzzle, part pvp arena.

I’d like to see those two aspects split: no JP chest, or the puzzle itself moved into the PvE realm with the chest, and keep the map, with some reworking, as PvP or WvW zone. That way the JP-ers get their puzzle and chest, and the PvP-ers get their PvP, without either getting in each other’s way.

Exactly! How awesome would a jump puzzle that connected all the keeps and towers be? Take an enemy tower and you have a shortcut underground passage to their keep—without one of their towers, you could still take the JP route in, but it would be longer and harder. A JP is very easy to defend, but without a presence, or people running supply to it (to fuel traps) from the other maps, it is a back door inside the walls for an intrepid mesmer or havoc squad. This would make it WvW-ey.

Or how about making a sPvP map where the first team to get everybody to the end chest gets a nice reward and wins the round. This might work out better if the three teams didn’t start out right next to each other, but the idea of a 3-way PvP match is not unsound… I seem to recall something like that in GW1 that was pretty popular.

Those would be fun implementations that align with established content types. As it stands, it isn’t very WvW-ey and asking the entire PvE community to queue up for a single zone strikes me as a bottleneck to frustrate the regulars more than an opportunity to lure in newbies. OS shows people the worst that WvW can offer; if you want to attract people, you show them the best; you show them organized sieges, you show them large-scale, epic battles, you show them strategy and teamwork. You don’t drop them into a meat grinder. Indicating that the kite is intended to be a lure means that Anet wants PvE-focused players to attempt it; this is a good idea, but OS is not the place to demonstrate what WvW is all about.

mrmadhaze.8706:

People wants to play without playing.

In next patch we will see:
- Autoevents: they starts and then they finish. Ofc you win.
- Jumping Puzzle: Just jump baby. A magic crates will happears at you feet
- World vs Door: The Lord gives you the tower’s keys, then you can dinner with the enemy. Including strippers. No AC’s allowed. They stink.
- Bash the thieves! Becouse every learn to play issue needs his scapegoat! (pegi18+)
- New spvp map: try the new chat while holded to the ground. You can’t move. Or fall!
- Living story: added new spoiler button. You can press and discover how finish the story. Audiobook avaiable.

No. People just want to get PvE achievements without having to play Anet’s broken PvP jumping puzzle.

Monsoon.2589:

Ayrilana.1396:

It was moved to its own map because of people complaining that those doing the jp were taking up valuae slots from those that wanted to do WvW.

And they STILL do take valuable queue slots. Try to get to EB tonight at 9pm in T1

Which impact you for only 3 minutes at most since they head straight for the jp and are out of the zone. Much less than those that come there and just AFK.

I <3 Devon Carver. Just saying.

Fildydarie.1496:

Laurelinde.4395:

Agreed…I actually think a WvW map based somewhere like Obsidian Sanctum could be really interesting, with the traps and such. The trouble is, OS doesn’t really feel or act like a WvW map. There are no points to hold or defend, no supply, nothing in common with the regular maps. As it stands now it exists in a weird halfway-between world, part ordinary jumping puzzle, part pvp arena.

I’d like to see those two aspects split: no JP chest, or the puzzle itself moved into the PvE realm with the chest, and keep the map, with some reworking, as PvP or WvW zone. That way the JP-ers get their puzzle and chest, and the PvP-ers get their PvP, without either getting in each other’s way.

Exactly! How awesome would a jump puzzle that connected all the keeps and towers be? Take an enemy tower and you have a shortcut underground passage to their keep—without one of their towers, you could still take the JP route in, but it would be longer and harder. A JP is very easy to defend, but without a presence, or people running supply to it (to fuel traps) from the other maps, it is a back door inside the walls for an intrepid mesmer or havoc squad. This would make it WvW-ey.

Or how about making a sPvP map where the first team to get everybody to the end chest gets a nice reward and wins the round. This might work out better if the three teams didn’t start out right next to each other, but the idea of a 3-way PvP match is not unsound… I seem to recall something like that in GW1 that was pretty popular.

Those would be fun implementations that align with established content types. As it stands, it isn’t very WvW-ey and asking the entire PvE community to queue up for a single zone strikes me as a bottleneck to frustrate the regulars more than an opportunity to lure in newbies. OS shows people the worst that WvW can offer; if you want to attract people, you show them the best; you show them organized sieges, you show them large-scale, epic battles, you show them strategy and teamwork. You don’t drop them into a meat grinder. Indicating that the kite is intended to be a lure means that Anet wants PvE-focused players to attempt it; this is a good idea, but OS is not the place to demonstrate what WvW is all about.

Indeed, it could be something quite spectacular (if not for the faint of heart!) But in practice, in my experience, ‘PvP’ in OS consists mainly of unsuspecting PvE-ers getting mercilessly ganked in the entrance or the arena over and over again, or an uneasy truce with all 3 sides jumping and not fighting.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Excuise me, does this offically mean “PvEer who isn’t good at PvP should not go to WvW to get the JP achievement.”

Allowing pvp in a JP where there are dark room and mass traps is not just risky, but frustrating people.

if you really want to encourage people to join WvW, make different JP for each keep. This way will encourage people to help their server to defense their own keep or try to occupy other keeps.

I seriouly think the “risk” is bs and unnecessary — there are better ways to encourage people to join wvw.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

I understand Arenanet has metrics on player activities and attempts their best to socially engineer our behavior. Though I do not believe, nor have witnessed, any increase in WvW population due to any achievement being placed within WvW.

I’ll still due my best to engineer a truce between our match up. Allowing us to portal as many as possible amongst our 3 worlds. Because showing that we’re good gamer’s that care and that WvW can be a place of fun, will bring in more players to WvW.

For the griever’s, you know whom you are. Have some common sense about how much is too much.

Monsoon.2589:

Ayrilana.1396:

It was moved to its own map because of people complaining that those doing the jp were taking up valuae slots from those that wanted to do WvW.

And they STILL do take valuable queue slots. Try to get to EB tonight at 9pm in T1

Do NOT refer to T1 as a whole. People will find little to no Queue on JQ.

Going to avoid the whole “camping = griefing in this case” argument and ask something of all of you passionate players.

Do you dedicated WvW’ers even care about the Living Story? Obviously if you almost never do PvE, you don’t care about achievement points, and you don’t care about shiny skins, then the LS doesn’t give you much incentive. So why is it there?
Personally, it’s a love/hate relationship for me. I’m not new to WvW, but not super experienced either. I mainly PvE, but I also WvW. And in the JP’s, yeah you can get killed. That’s the whole idea. I won’t deny it can be frustrating sometimes, but I’m a big girl. I’ll deal with it.
I think the issue here is less that people are camping the JP, and more the fact that a set of achievements that are obviously designed for PvE players has 1 achievement in a PvP zone. It IS a PvP zone; you can fight and kill each other.

But I don’t see any reason to put this single achievement in a PvP zone, when the rest is in a PvE environment. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Well, apart from the obvious “maybe more PvE’ers will start liking WvW”. But the thing is, this is about the worst introduction WvW could have for new players; it’s actually having the opposite effect on a lot of WvW newbies.

I mean really, are any WvW fans who don’t do PvE that much even interested in doing the Living Story? Why not just keep the two modes separate?

-edited for grammar errors XD-

Lyskaria.2145:

I mean really, are any WvW fans who don’t do PvE that much even interested in doing the Living Story? Why not just keep the two modes separate?

What about the large number (majority?) of WvWers that like the rest of the game as well? I think you’re projecting your self imposed restrictions on everyone else. Not everyone has such odd restrictions on what they allow themselves to do.

Besides, its not that people who focus mainly on WvW don’t like nice shiny things, its just that our preferred game type means that we get the short end of the stick when it comes to such things.

In the end, these are obviously WvW achievements (as you have to enter WvW to get them), just like the kite achievement in the Cliffside Fractal is a FotM achievement.

And for emphasis, the reason why these two modes aren’t kept separate with an autistic passion is because most people actually like it.

Surbrus.6942:

And for emphasis, the reason why these two modes aren’t kept separate with an autistic passion is because most people actually like it.

I like PvE. I find WvW interesting enough. I hate the kind of combat that occurs in Obsidian Sanctum as it is much closer to PvP and draws the worst sort. And I, personally, abhor PvP.

If the kite was in a more WvW oriented location, then it wouldn’t be so bad. But in Obsidian Sanctum? The only reason that is ‘WvW’ is because they made it accessible from WvW. It doesn’t feel, act like, or really has any similiarities to anything else in WvW.

Surbrus.6942:

Lyskaria.2145:

I mean really, are any WvW fans who don’t do PvE that much even interested in doing the Living Story? Why not just keep the two modes separate?

What about the large number (majority?) of WvWers that like the rest of the game as well? I think you’re projecting your self imposed restrictions on everyone else. Not everyone has such odd restrictions on what they allow themselves to do.

Besides, its not that people who focus mainly on WvW don’t like nice shiny things, its just that our preferred game type means that we get the short end of the stick when it comes to such things.

In the end, these are obviously WvW achievements (as you have to enter WvW to get them), just like the kite achievement in the Cliffside Fractal is a FotM achievement.

And for emphasis, the reason why these two modes aren’t kept separate with an autistic passion is because most people actually like it.

It was a question posed to all of you. If it seemed like I was telling you guys what you like and don’t like, then that was never my intention and I apologize. Having said that, I did see at least 1 person here who fitted most of those questions. I was simply trying to see how many people had that same mindset and if it wouldn’t be better to keep the LS separate from WvW. If that looks like I’m “projecting” my apparently odd, self-imposed restrictions on you guys, then I don’t really know what to tell you. O_o

Yes, I did say Obsidian Sanctum is a PvP map. Considering it’s a PvP map linked to a WvW map, that makes it a WvW achievement. I don’t recall stating that it isn’t. As for Fractals of the Mists, I’m not quite sure. For me it’s a dungeon, so PvE, but maybe some people see that differently.

You do realize I meant separating the game modes in relation to the LS, right? Since that’s what’s the hot topic in here and the subject I was replying to. I actually quite like having my PvE gear used in WvW and I don’t see anything wrong with it. If you want PvP gear, go do sPvP imo.

SynfulChaot.3169:

The only reason that is ‘WvW’ is because they made it accessible from WvW. It doesn’t feel, act like, or really has any similarities to anything else in WvW.

Is that even really that important though? Its a Jumping Puzzle, of course it doesn’t feel like the rest of WvW. Also for some people that’s the most fun place to PvP in WvW.

As for drawing the “worst sort”, well to those of us that actually like this stuff, that is just part of it. Those sorts of people are usually pretty bad at PvP anyways, so for those that are decent/good at PvP, it can be really rewarding to outwit and then cleave a path right through these campers.

Basically a lot of people come into a PvP area and get all hung up about people PvPing in ways they don’t like. The best response is probably simply “deal with it”.

Lyskaria.2145:

As for Fractals of the Mists, I’m not quite sure. For me it’s a dungeon, so PvE, but maybe some people see that differently.

I’ve actually seen many achievement hunters moaning and groaning about being “required” to do the FotM achievements related to the Living World addition. I think that is just as bizarre as believe you would think it is, and just as I (and many others who play enjoy multiple parts of the game) think that your self imposed restrictions are bizarre.

Lyskaria.2145:

You do realize I meant separating the game modes in relation to the LS, right? Since that’s what’s the hot topic in here and the subject I was replying to.

I don’t see why the LS should be restricted. Its supposed to be new content, why shouldn’t it include the rest of the game? Back during the Halloween event we had lots of Halloween related stuff in WvW, why should we be excluded from certain “holiday-like” updates?

Lyskaria.2145:

As for Fractals of the Mists, I’m not quite sure. For me it’s a dungeon, so PvE, but maybe some people see that differently.

I’ve actually seen many achievement hunters moaning and groaning about being “required” to do the FotM achievements related to the Living World addition. I think that is just as bizarre as believe you would think it is, and just as I (and many others who play enjoy multiple parts of the game) think that your self imposed restrictions are bizarre.

Lyskaria.2145:

You do realize I meant separating the game modes in relation to the LS, right? Since that’s what’s the hot topic in here and the subject I was replying to.

I don’t see why the LS should be restricted. Its supposed to be new content, why shouldn’t it include the rest of the game? Back during the Halloween event we had lots of Halloween related stuff in WvW, why should we be excluded from certain “holiday-like” updates?[/quote]

In my mind, there’s a difference between PvE’ers complaining about a Fractal kite and a WvW kite. Because the WvW one is a PvP one and the Fractal one isn’t. However from the other part of that bit it seems you think I restrict myself from certain parts of the game? Because if so, I really don’t. I’ve tried (and still play) all 3 main game modes and I’m not aversive to JP’s.

As for Halloween, I’m afraid I missed that last year so I can’t comment on that. >< I thought pulling the kite out of WvW wouldn’t hurt WvW’ers, that because the rest is PvE content, moving it wouldn’t harm WvW’ers. But I guess it would, since you’ve been trying to get that through my thick skull. At least that’s what I’m seeing here, feel free to correct me if I’ve misread anything.
In that case I guess you’ll just have to deal with all the complaining threads that are going to pop up in the future then. (unfortunately) Since Anet put a LS objective in the Obsidian Sanctum twice in a row, they’re likely going to do it more often.

Thanks for making your stance clear to me.

Edit: Not quite sure why it didn’t quote your reply there…I’m stil pretty new to these forums, so sorry about that.

Surbrus.6942:

SynfulChaot.3169:

The only reason that is ‘WvW’ is because they made it accessible from WvW. It doesn’t feel, act like, or really has any similarities to anything else in WvW.

Is that even really that important though? Its a Jumping Puzzle, of course it doesn’t feel like the rest of WvW. Also for some people that’s the most fun place to PvP in WvW.

As for drawing the “worst sort”, well to those of us that actually like this stuff, that is just part of it. Those sorts of people are usually pretty bad at PvP anyways, so for those that are decent/good at PvP, it can be really rewarding to outwit and then cleave a path right through these campers.

Basically a lot of people come into a PvP area and get all hung up about people PvPing in ways they don’t like. The best response is probably simply “deal with it”.

Brings us back again to why they insisted on putting it in the JP. If it was to get people interested in WvW, I think they will find it has the opposite effect by making people hate WvW and never want to go back. And that is a bloody shame as Obsidian Sanctum is not anything like the rest of WvW.

If they wanted to draw people into WvW, there are many better places they could have put the kite that would make people see WvW for the fun it can be. You know, instead of the chokepoint gankfest that Obsidian Sanctum is when there are campers. Which is most of the time.

All I know is that if that was my first entry to WvW, I’d never go back. Unfortunately, I don’t think that ANet feels the same.

I can show sympathy for those who want to complete those meta cheevos. They can be annoying on a bad day in WvW especially with the matchups the way they are going. I know I had to hop in and out of OS and wait for a small group of people or a mesmer portal announcement before getting the Cache from the sky pirates lines. The OS Kite I got by using the stealth wells around the place and then grouping up with some people to take out some numbers in the arena by pulling the enemies off the ledges with pulls used by mesmers, necros, and thieves, kill them off, and then destroy the other servers mesmers to portal other up and get the kite. While the best way to get stuff is to wait for mesmers or travel in group, Anet is kinda going the wrong way with the LS cheevos by putting them into OS to get people into WvW and assume they would enjoy WvW by doing that. I agree with most on the kites in the camps idea or place the objective in some key spot like the ogres or hylek camps or even the dredge mine. Or even in the empty fields on all the sides of SM.

I can’t do my achievements because they require jumping puzzles. Other people can’t do their achievements because they require PvP. I don’t see where the issues are, just don’t get this achievement? You won’t be getting ALL achievements without PvP anyway, just focus on the ones you can get without aggravating yourself.

I personally detest the WvW jumping puzzles, but I just don’t go there, just like I don’t go to regular jumping puzzles. Doesn’t stop me from doing things I do enjoy; it really is that easy.

I love this unspoken rule so much. Lets me hop past multiple enemies all by myself until I get to the top of the arena and then proceed to kill them all.

Tom Gore.4035:

I love this unspoken rule so much. Lets me hop past multiple enemies all by myself until I get to the top of the arena and then proceed to kill them all.

Will you marry me?

Jamais vu.5284:

They’re griefing? Report them. I’m pretty sure griefing is a bannable offense.

They’re beating your carebear rear? That’s called PvP! Bring your friends, guild or ask for support in the WvW map channel(s). You don’t even have to defeat them, maybe you can just sneak past them.

Reporting someone, for having a rough time and complaining about it is just rude, and makes it worse. Also its very unproductive to get people on your own server banned who are trying to help themselves as much as they are trying to help the server by bringing more siege to the environment plus experience. That single TOS rule should be removed. Its human nature to feel the need to express anxiety but at a controlled lvl of course.

All you tier. 1ers complaining about the queue…stop fricken trying to recruit anything with a pulse to tier 1 than!!!

dunnberry.2964:

All you tier. 1ers complaining about the queue…stop fricken trying to recruit anything with a pulse to tier 1 than!!!

Nope, more qqueue more fun.

To my understanding with how the EB JP is set up it allows less skilled players to get their PvP kills for the monthly.