Guild Wars 2

I play thief. Was asked again to please switch out to different toon. Every middle armor class is always asked to leave. This has been said before. Never has it been addressed. GWEN toons are a staple in wvw. Mes being the exception. Its well known. Please give everyone a role that means something.

Though I agree with your point, Yet 3 years on JQ and I have never been asked that.

Well not really, lol almost all classes are represented in zergbusting/gvg’s. The gwen only is an old concept id say although obviously youre probably talking about a pug group asking you this. Thief has a role, most of that is being on the gank squad to take out backline (ele + necro). If it is a pug commander being toxic about this lol i dunno what to say, you should probably inform him hes plain wrong.

Why your guardians and warriors can’t change class? Tell them play engi, ranger, mesmer, condi necro, S/D ele or thief.

Thieves do well in small man, although you could argue that role is much better being filled by a mesmer now.

For zerging venom shares are big, lots of guilds/groups now have multiple venom share thieves. If you can epi that 7 second immob around a couple times and the guards cant clear all the cover condis in time to get to said immobilise it’s GG.

Gank squads don’t exist apparently.

Nobody respectful runs venom share on the EU side at least.
Every class is welcome, it’s just that in blob warfare GWEN is far more efficient and so gank squads aren’t really needed.

GWEN is good for uncoordinated zergs. I’d argue that engi is also just as good in an uncoordinated zerg.

With coordination, I’d imagine nearly all classes are viable. Thief is good for havoc teams, solo roaming, and also for venomshare (either control or condi). Thieves can also make for good zergbuster groups.

The thing is that Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist and Necromancer can do pretty much every role your Thief can (stealth is good in dueling, but lets face it – its a crutch. Other classes dont need stealth to kill players) and at the same time perform absolutely critical roles in zerg warfare.

One might argue that Thief mobility and stealth allow him to scout better, but at the same time, any player on TS can perform that task better than any specific class. And when you get where you are going… then what? You cant contest like a Warrior or Guardian. You cant stop the zerg like an Elementalist and you cant bomb like a Necromancer. Weigh this against often completely pointless ganking.

That said, play whatever. Even Thieves can sometimes, in very rare situations when planets align, be appreciated. Extremely good players will be extremely good regardless of what they play. Personally I only change class if my guild ask me (maining a Necromancer sort of avoid conflicts though, haha).

Here is an idea instead of trying to fit in with a zerg where your low amount of health and inablity to take a hit make you stand out as the weak link try to get gank squad 4 to 5 thiefs…sneak around behind and flank enemy and when the zergs clash instantly split their focus…doing this can cause low health players especially the ones who are new to game to panic wasting cleanses and heals that would have been better used in other ways

Chase.2798:

Here is an idea instead of trying to fit in with a zerg where your low amount of health and inablity to take a hit make you stand out as the weak link try to get gank squad 4 to 5 thiefs…sneak around behind and flank enemy and when the zergs clash instantly split their focus…doing this can cause low health players especially the ones who are new to game to panic wasting cleanses and heals that would have been better used in other ways

4-5 Thieves could sneak around and win fights with a few exposed backliners… Or 4-5 Necromancer could move around and win the entire battle as they bomb the backline to smithereens followed by pushing straight into the already engaged frontline in DS/Plague form to rejoin the main force.

This is the “problem” with arguing Thief usage.

GWEN is so softcore!

Here is my point guys. When you get down to it when was the last time your commander said in ts that you needed more engineers…We need more Rangers…We need more thieves… And it wasn’t a joke?

Not arguing the validity of these classes. I have played thief almost excusively since launch… And know the class. I know friends who know a vast amount of tactics on their other medium armors. Still… They would be asked to switch out to a class they have much less experience in simply for the situation.

It is interesting that these are generally unwanted. Not always. Mostly.

GWEN is gonna change some classes will fill roles other classes posses now aso..

Guard and Warrior will remain and Il bet Ele will aswell and some may use Tempest but I doubt many in WvW will drop Staff. Warrior have 2 roles a Frontline Soldier or a DPS Berserker and those 2 roles will be there after HoT. Guard has really 1 role and its unshaken and dont see DH will add another.

Necro will change from DPS Caster to also have a Frontline/Midline sweaper DPS role basicly moveing slightly behind the Guards/Warriors as the Reaper and some will stick to current.

Mesmer will be added in WvW to the DPS Caster just by useing Wells and not leave but atleast have a 2nd role to its Focus Party role.

Thief will sadly remain in FP

Revenant will both fill a DPS FP role but many of us also see it getting a Frontline role with Guard and Warrior even to the egree as we will see Revenant Raid leaders in WvW due to traits that can reduce Inc dmg aso..

Ranger as Druid and Staff should give it a better AoE and maybe even some AoE-Ground Target options so it can get into WvW abit more then just a roamer or occasional FP player.

Engi has really no role at all, I see some use it in FP but mainly just for the pull and thats sad, hopefully Forge will give it the sustain to maybe fit the same type of role as a Reaper will, it will ofc also need abit more AoE then.

TehHobNob.4687:

When you get down to it when was the last time your commander said in ts that you needed more engineers…We need more Rangers…We need more thieves…

I do not know situation in very large zergs, but we run small guild group of 10-15 against similar size or slightly larger enemies. Every single person needs to contribute something useful to the party (5) or group (10-15). Before the big change in June I used to run both thief and engineer, mostly because I like to play those classes, but also I felt useful and helping the group in ways other classes did not. Since the update I dropped both.

There just isnt anything thief contributes that cant be done better by some other class. Stealth is done better by mesmer. Group damage, single target damage, applying and removing condis, healing, boosting, tanking. Thief has no good role.

Enemy thieves attacking our backlines are usually annoying at most. And then they die.

HoT beta did not bring anything good for thief. And I doubt poor engineer will get much needed boost either.

I think thief, engi, and ranger should get wvw bonuses to make up for there less then stellar zerg performance…here is some possible ideas i came up with out of the blue. Each one follows the classes title and i think would give them the lil edge they are missing

Engi can take down walls faster
Thief can climb over walls to get behind the enemy
Rangers have extended range and acuracy with siege

These abilities might make them useful without removing things that makes the classes different….what do you think?

Coldtart.4785:

Gank squads don’t exist apparently.

~5 pu’s and ~5 dd ele with 2 S/p thiefs, spiking on call target, blasting waters, stealth.

WvW players lack of skill and ressing are only reasons why meta won’t change. Problem is that you really can’t find 20+ very good players. Sure you can find players who know that red circle is bad, that blast in waterfield heals or what ever you do in your meta nowadays (i don’t really have any idea ), but they still aren’t good enough for some more advanced play styles. Of course you start to whine and tell how all your zerglings are top players and that i am bad. Well i am horrible player, but at least i have figured it out. You can continue lying to yourself.

1 Thief + shadow refuge + 1 Mesmer + gravity well + 1 warrior + gun flame = good gank squad.

Im the rare commander who makes calls for engi but sadly the few I come across wont get in ts, have no idea how to play the class and are just pure embarrassment.

As an engi main myself Im fully aware of what the class is capable of but honestly its just too much work and risk to continue playing it right now. Get on your mesmers…

This has been meta for as long as i can remember.
Yet they still cry for mesmer nerf in wvw.
For one reason. Mesmers are a minority there.

It’s GEN now.. Warriors serve no purpose.

TehHobNob.4687:

I play thief. Was asked again to please switch out to different toon. Every middle armor class is always asked to leave. This has been said before. Never has it been addressed. GWEN toons are a staple in wvw. Mes being the exception. Its well known. Please give everyone a role that means something.

This is still a very big issue in general WVW. Yes there are some exceptions, but those are situational exceptions not applicable for overall gameplay. You can have thieves, engis, rangers, mesmers, but they just cant compete and accomplish group functions as efficiently as the other 4.

You only need a couple mesmers for veil / portal, 2 rangers max for commander and overextender sniping, 2 thieves max for scouting / daggerstorm or venomshare, 2-3 engis for 1500 range bombing and pulls. In large groups the “cut throat” function such as you see in 15 vs 15 or even 20 vs 20 becomes irrelevant. And you can do without the sniping entirely, in fact, I’d rather take another necro, ele or engi 10x over any ranger.

Any time I run with rangers is because I feel sorry for them, but would much rather run with any other class.

Back to the topic, if the commander has already enough thieves, rangers, mesmers and engis, and is severly lacking the main punch or frontline, then I don’t see why its bad for him / her to ask to switch. Team comps are important even in pugs.

In my time in WVW I have been in pugs that could get so organized and coordinated they often beat guild groups twice their size and it was in a large part because everyone was willing to switch to what was needed on the fly, we used to literally be able to form a zergbusting team in 5 min flat made out of pugs on TS.

Then I took a long break from the game and when I came back this practice has disappeared on my server, SOS. this is a large part why this server sucks now beyond friday resets and saturdays, not only are so many people running bad PVE based builds on PVE based classes but they just do not adjust to the situation.

Even some guild groups are really bad at this, for example we have 1 guild that can’t adjust to the changing meta and develop strategies / tactics outside of the old hammertrain / leap in, naturally stripping everyones stabs in about 1-2 secs flat and experiencing the consequences of that, while another is running PVE style zerkers and of course they all just fall flat on their faces on just about every push, all they can do is kite and run.

So unless you are scouting or roaming, I would not recommend runnign a thief, sorry, this may be not what you want to hear but for larger group play if there already is 1 or 2, then its much better to run something more useful and I do not see anything wrong with commander asking what is needed to better compliment what hes got.

Of course GWEN is meta.

Coincidence? I don’t think so…

They can ask all they like, nothing is stopping you from playing what you want to play, and nothing is stopping you from following the group around. I think it’s fine if the server politely asks for more of a class if it feels it will help. Some players do play multiple classes and don’t mind switching if the group is low on a particular class.

kenahs.8397:

It’s GEN now.. Warriors serve no purpose.

LoL, u try win a good GvG or a Scrim in WvW vs an equal quality Guild without Banners. Nah we still run 1-2 Warriors in every group & 1 KS Warrior in our FP.

Thieves have many important roles in WvW… scouting, finishing downed players, hitting the blackline and sharing venoms with Necros and Eles. We have some awesome thieves in our zerg.

Avigrus.2871:

Thieves have many important roles in WvW… scouting, finishing downed players, hitting the blackline and sharing venoms with Necros and Eles. We have some awesome thieves in our zerg.

Venom Shareing is for the skill-less tho. Its when u need to cheeze the enemy. Imho try and move away from that.

Thieves have max 900 range and the immob venom got its duration halved. Since the thief specialization is going to be another melee spec instead of the rifle that many wanted, thieves are never going to be very useful in 50v50 map blob battles

Commanders ask for GWEN (plus 2-3 Mesmers) when they’re having to face a much larger blob, or when they’re rolling 20-25’ish players. When you have less people on you, the classes people play matter more because there are only so many spots available. You need a solid frontline while having big enough bombs to bust opponent’s melee train. But when you’re rolling a 40+ blob, you have enough GWEN that you can let people play whatever they want, you can have dedicated pick teams if you want, it won’t matter as much.

So it’s important to note the difference when talking about WvW ZvZ. Commanders are usually not picky unless they’re facing superior numbers. In which case I think they’re right in asking people to switch out to GWEN, because GWEN is currently the best at fighting superior numbers.

I’m all for Anet giving other classes more to fit in WvW ZvZ better. But what are you willing to sacrifice in exchange? Necros have zero mobility, escapes, evades, stealth, blocks, invulns, so they get the big aoe bombs. Fair exchange, they’re like the B52 bombers, good at bombing, but kinda sucks when it comes to tricks and such. Perhaps they can give thieves a more rugged build, one that lacks stealth and escapes? But then that wouldn’t play like a thief. How did Daredevil play in WvW btw, anybody try it over the beta weekend?

Ravezaar.4951:

Avigrus.2871:

Thieves have many important roles in WvW… scouting, finishing downed players, hitting the blackline and sharing venoms with Necros and Eles. We have some awesome thieves in our zerg.

Venom Shareing is for the skill-less tho. Its when u need to cheeze the enemy. Imho try and move away from that.

The problem being it is very effective at what it does and ive noticed more and more larger scale groups with multiple venom shares. If something is efficient more and more groups will switch to running it(look at the proliferation of PU mesmers) until Anet addresses the ability. The initial pressure of the venom share is rough, especially if an epi or 2 is timed well on the venom piled target.

Besides sharing venoms, thieves are hilariously bad at zerging.

Every class is viable in WvW, but have different roles. Thieves simply can’t zerg well. It’s not surprising if you were asked to change class if you’re playing in a zerg.

gavyne.6847:

How did Daredevil play in WvW btw, anybody try it over the beta weekend?

For group fight Daredevil brings nothing new. Staff is another melee weapon, just like daggers and sword, and yes, you will still instantly die if you try to join hammertrain. All the new skills are about single target damage, something that thief already has plenty of access to. There are no new group support skills and none of the new skills has anything to do with stealth.

TehHobNob.4687:

I play thief. Was asked again to please switch out to different toon. Every middle armor class is always asked to leave. This has been said before. Never has it been addressed. GWEN toons are a staple in wvw. Mes being the exception. Its well known. Please give everyone a role that means something.

Ask your server to stop blobbing. Every class is viable as long as you don’t blob. If you want to blob and take part in no skillful play what so ever, bring one of the four blobbing classes to blob with your blob.

It’s more or less required to have multiple thieves in WvW groups that don’t blob.

Mryul.8165:

TehHobNob.4687:

I play thief. Was asked again to please switch out to different toon. Every middle armor class is always asked to leave. This has been said before. Never has it been addressed. GWEN toons are a staple in wvw. Mes being the exception. Its well known. Please give everyone a role that means something.

Ask your server to stop blobbing. Every class is viable as long as you don’t blob. If you want to blob and take part in no skillful play what so ever, bring one of the four blobbing classes to blob with your blob.

It’s more or less required to have multiple thieves in WvW groups that don’t blob.

And how do you do that? Call out in map chat and hope those xx numbers of people suddenly realise how bad they are for zerging? The fact that people favor blobs is a result of game mechanics and normal human characteristics.

Why split and do my part in a small group if I can 111 my way to loot.
Why split and bear a lot bigger part of responsibility for any fail that might happen. No bad feelings in a blob.
Why split when I feel safer with 50 others behind me.

All this while the game supports people stacking together.

But hey, lets advice others to tell people to stop blobbing.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

The fact that people favor blobs is a result of game mechanics and normal human characteristics.

Why split and do my part in a small group if I can 111 my way to loot.
Why split and bear a lot bigger part of responsibility for any fail that might happen. No bad feelings in a blob.
Why split when I feel safer with 50 others behind me.

That is more of a playerbase issue, as a PvP format, WvW has by far the least “PvP” playerbase of any I’ve played (when I say playerbase I don’t mean entire playerbase for most non-PvP MMOs, I’m comparing to say the playerbase of a PvP server).

I’d also say ironically enough given the limited gear progression in this game, that overall the playerbase in this game is full of more Skinner Box zombies more concerned with loot rather than gameplay than any game I’ve played, alleged PvP players (as in WvW players) go on more about loot in this game than players do even in PvP MMOs where there is full player looting, the playerbase is tragic, and it has gotten worse over time has the number of actual PvP inclined players have left WvW / the game.

zinkz.7045:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

The fact that people favor blobs is a result of game mechanics and normal human characteristics.

Why split and do my part in a small group if I can 111 my way to loot.
Why split and bear a lot bigger part of responsibility for any fail that might happen. No bad feelings in a blob.
Why split when I feel safer with 50 others behind me.

That is more of a playerbase issue, as a PvP format, WvW has by far the least “PvP” playerbase of any I’ve played (when I say playerbase I don’t mean entire playerbase for most non-PvP MMOs, I’m comparing to say the playerbase of a PvP server).

I’d also say ironically enough given the limited gear progression in this game, that overall the playerbase in this game is full of more Skinner Box zombies more concerned with loot rather than gameplay than any game I’ve played, alleged PvP players (as in WvW players) go on more about loot in this game than players do even in PvP MMOs where there is full player looting, the playerbase is tragic, and it has gotten worse over time has the number of actual PvP inclined players have left WvW / the game.

Wvw as a gamemode has became unpleasantly rigid, people either blob or don’t play. So there is nothing to do for the pvp oriented players.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Mryul.8165:

TehHobNob.4687:

I play thief. Was asked again to please switch out to different toon. Every middle armor class is always asked to leave. This has been said before. Never has it been addressed. GWEN toons are a staple in wvw. Mes being the exception. Its well known. Please give everyone a role that means something.

Ask your server to stop blobbing. Every class is viable as long as you don’t blob. If you want to blob and take part in no skillful play what so ever, bring one of the four blobbing classes to blob with your blob.

It’s more or less required to have multiple thieves in WvW groups that don’t blob.

And how do you do that? Call out in map chat and hope those xx numbers of people suddenly realise how bad they are for zerging? The fact that people favor blobs is a result of game mechanics and normal human characteristics.

Why split and do my part in a small group if I can 111 my way to loot.
Why split and bear a lot bigger part of responsibility for any fail that might happen. No bad feelings in a blob.
Why split when I feel safer with 50 others behind me.

All this while the game supports people stacking together.

But hey, lets advice others to tell people to stop blobbing.

Or you can play with people who don’t blob. Join a real GvG or WvW guild. (That doesn’t run more than 20-25 ppl)

20-25 ppl is virtually a blob on every server except T1 maybe T2. The core problem is how rewards are allocated.

DAoC’s reward system revolved around a structure or player being worth a set amount of reward points depending on a lot of factors. What level was the player/structure, how many upgrades the structure had, how long the structure had stood.

That number was then divided by the players that participated in taking the structure, you take it with 5 people(unlikely) they will be handsomely rewarded. You take it with 50 people the rewards will be much less because you have just thrown numbers at the target.

Chorazin.4107:

20-25 ppl is virtually a blob on every server except T1 maybe T2. The core problem is how rewards are allocated.

cant fix stupid

20-25 is not a blob. any class is perfectly viable in such groups, thieves especially.

SobZney.1739:

Chorazin.4107:

20-25 ppl is virtually a blob on every server except T1 maybe T2. The core problem is how rewards are allocated.

cant fix stupid

20-25 is not a blob. any class is perfectly viable in such groups, thieves especially.

Lower tiers barely have players in WvW, 20-25 in this scenario is easily a blob. It’s probably the numbers they have for one whole BL map. Some BL maps are virtually empty. These sort of numbers are fine in T1/T2 but after T3 it falls off fast.

Let alone outside NA prime time on lower tiers.

Ravezaar.4951:

Avigrus.2871:

Thieves have many important roles in WvW… scouting, finishing downed players, hitting the blackline and sharing venoms with Necros and Eles. We have some awesome thieves in our zerg.

Venom Shareing is for the skill-less tho. Its when u need to cheeze the enemy. Imho try and move away from that.

So GWEN is not skill less?

Fighting with GWEN Setup against a PUG with many Engis and Ranger is pro or what?

So i would say using stability is skill-less or using line of warding is skill-less what a nonsense.

If you are a part of a guild or organized WvW group, I’m afraid I have little sympathy for you. WvW is about teamwork, more so than any other facet of GW2. To build an effective team requires the members of that team to perform certain roles. And GWEN covers the most critical roles more effectively than any other group composition. Part of teamwork is making sacrifices to help the whole team.

I see this every time my guild rallies for WvW. EVERYONE wants to play a Thief, Engineer, or Ranger because those classes are really fun. But when we try to make do without a proper composition, we die MUCH more than when 2/3+ of us are GWEN. And since losing fights is less fun than playing a GWEN, some of us play classes that we don’t enjoy as much. Frankly, people who complain that they can’t play the class they want come across as selfish. My main characters are a Ranger and an Engineer, but when the guild goes to WvW, I’m on a Necromancer because that’s what helps my guild the most!

On the other hand, if you are talking about random zergs asking you to change classes, they can go suck an egg.