The guard killer line now rewards you with 100 power and 100 condition damage. The guard defense line rewards you with 250 vitality. Totalled, that’s 450 stat points, which is worth more than getting two extra slots for two extra ascended accessories, or over 12% of your base stats.
The requisite of killing 5 guards to gets these stacks is terrifically trivial. Walk into a camp, or to the gate of a keep, and you’re set. Getting 230 points to buy these upgrades is not. But those points will go first to those who farm the WXP train, for whom the killing of guards will be a minor supplement to their 600WXP/keep cap at best.
The other side is that this bonus has nothing to do with killing guards. It’s a flat out bonus that, aggregated in a group, would give a massive combat advantage.
Why was this implemented at all? What was the philosophy? If it’s to make these otherwise unattractive trait lines more attractive, that’s simply a lazy and unbalanced approach that ends up encroaching on other aspects of the game.
tl;dr This is a big stat boost for a big grind which has only a superficial relation to what it claims to be
it’s funny because you could make the entire line give nothing up until rank 10 and the same people would still get it just for the stats.
stat points as a reward for grinding is design contrary to the games philosophy of aesthetic time sinks
I do not like the path they are going with this stat bump for this wvw ability. Every other ability is very situational this one is global and affects individual player’s stats. Don’t say well you have to go kill guards first because we all know that the guards are a joke. This ability should only allow you to kill the guards or protect you from the guards more not other players.
stat points as a reward for grinding is design contrary to the games philosophy of aesthetic time sinks
Kind of like ascended gear? Legendaries?
I know I didn’t ask for them to be out in WvW …..
At least these stat boosts have to actually be earned by participating in WvW instead of grinding away in PvE.
you mean hop aboard the wxp zerg train and ride it right
you mean hop aboard the wxp zerg train and ride it right
Not sure what you do out there, but I kill players for my points.
I like the idea, but should be way less… It sounds awfully grindy. I play WvW a lot, but I am not playing all day. Gathering that much WXP without grinding puts me in a lot of disadvantage, even if I may be more skilled than my buffed opponent.
I like the idea, again. Something to strive for. But don’t make it 50 per stack! That’s just nuts.
It moves the game even further away from personal skill. A frequent not-so-good zerger now easily has an advantage over a good solo roamer who doesn’t get this much WXP.
WvW is now officially grind to win.
At least ascended gear is fairly easy to obtain and has minimal stat advantages over exotics.
+2500hp +100 pow +100 condi is strait up bonkers.
stat points as a reward for grinding is design contrary to the games philosophy of aesthetic time sinks
Kind of like ascended gear? Legendaries?
I know I didn’t ask for them to be out in WvW …..
At least these stat boosts have to actually be earned by participating in WvW instead of grinding away in PvE.
legendaries are aesthetic time sinks
ascended … yeah.
cmon devs, dont you remember how hard it was to fight a 3 orb army? reopening even partial access to that is lame. yeah, i could have it too. but dont expect me to enjoy being a cheap trick instead of winning a fair fight. i already try my hardest to lure players into unwinnable situations just so i dont have to run back to where i am. and i dont get enjoyment out of it. i dont like duels because i feel like theyre a waste of time in an objective based game, but theyre always more enjoyable than uplvl stomping or pulling a roamer into tower guards for the free cc. stat boosts play out the same way.
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
Honestly I don’t understand why there isn’t more uproar from the community about this. Nobody in WvW asked for more stats linked to wvw abilities. What the fact are they doing? Do they want these matches to be even more one-sided because the bigger zerg servers will attain these ranks first and absolutely destroy servers even more that focus on havoc squads.
I personally don’t see what the huge deal is. Just work on that trait line. The more people on your team who have this, the better. I’m working on it.
/shrug
Personally I would love to have real W3 progression, similar to DAOC and other games. Unfortunately things are too care bear these days. It seems entitlement wins out over effort.
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
False. While there were some people calling for progression for months, many insisted against_stat_ progression. So when they first introduced WXP abilities, there was no kind of stat progression and you were happy if you used siege a lot and indifferent otherwise.
Then they started sneaking in these stat buffing abilities with no notice or justification. There will be people who love them but I believe it goes very much against the no grind philosophy.
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
False. While there were some people calling for progression for months, many insisted against_stat_ progression. So when they first introduced WXP abilities, there was no kind of stat progression and you were happy if you used siege a lot and indifferent otherwise.
Then they started sneaking in these stat buffing abilities with no notice or justification. There will be people who love them but I believe it goes very much against the no grind philosophy.
Uh….what? This is WvW. It has nothing to do with grinding. If you wanted to “grind” out that much WXP, it would take you 10x as long as just playing the WvW game normally and having fun with it. WXP is very minimal from grind-able content…and that’s by design.
In five hours of exciting awesome fun in WvW last night I ranked up 4 times. FOUR times.
When things aren’t exciting or we’re just doing small group “grindy” things like killing vets or taking camps, I rarely make even one rank per night.
If anything, the new stuff is anti-grind, not the other way around.
(edited by Hickeroar.9734)
I personally don’t see what the huge deal is. Just work on that trait line. The more people on your team who have this, the better. I’m working on it.
/shrug
And the more of your enemy that have it, the worse? Better start up that WXP train (or transfer to a server that rolls one) and God forbid you ever face an enemy that has more people than you.
Hickeroar I play on the same server as you but do not like to join the zerg instead I run supply defend camps and scout…. How do you think that it’s fair that while I arguably am doing a lot for my server I will in no way accumulate the wxp as quickly as those that choose to roll in a zerg taking things and leaving? Yet I play just as much but will not enjoy the stat bonus that you will for much longer? Why even have a stat bonus?
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
False. While there were some people calling for progression for months, many insisted against_stat_ progression. So when they first introduced WXP abilities, there was no kind of stat progression and you were happy if you used siege a lot and indifferent otherwise.
Then they started sneaking in these stat buffing abilities with no notice or justification. There will be people who love them but I believe it goes very much against the no grind philosophy.
Uh….what? This is WvW. It has nothing to do with grinding. If you wanted to “grind” out that much WXP, it would take you 10x as long as just playing the WvW game normally and having fun with it. WXP is very minimal from grind-able content…and that’s by design.
In five hours of exciting awesome fun in WvW last night I ranked up 4 times. FOUR times.
When things aren’t exciting or we’re just doing small group “grindy” things like killing vets or taking camps, I rarely make even one rank per night.
If anything, the new stuff is anti-grind, not the other way around.
Exciting? Judging from mos TC is steamrolling its opposition, and it sounds like you were just rolling with the zerg from one keep to the next. You have a very simple idea of fun.
Hickeroar I play on the same server as you but do not like to join the zerg instead I run supply defend camps and scout…. How do you think that it’s fair that while I arguably am doing a lot for my server I will in no way accumulate the wxp as quickly as those that choose to roll in a zerg taking things and leaving? Yet I play just as much but will not enjoy the stat bonus that you will for much longer? Why even have a stat bonus?
I won’t deny there’s a disparity in rewards. That much is pretty obvious.
I don’t think the addition is bad though, I just think they need to make it more accessible. It should be more like a trait/gear decision. “I can choose to 2500 more health (etc), or I can choose more damage on arrow carts.”
So when they first introduced WXP abilities, there was no kind of stat progression and you were happy if you used siege a lot and indifferent otherwise.
Then they started sneaking in these stat buffing abilities with no notice or justification. There will be people who love them but I believe it goes very much against the no grind philosophy.
1. Stats in MMOs increase performance be it doing damage, withstanding damage, moving faster, or whatever. increasing damage, range, effects, etc. of siege is in fact ‘stat’ progression. Sure a visible number might not go up from siege mastery skills, but you do in fact gain an advantage over someone performing the same task that does not have it.
2. The no-grind philosophy was abandoned by ANET a long time ago. See badges/ascended gear/etc.
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
False. While there were some people calling for progression for months, many insisted against_stat_ progression. So when they first introduced WXP abilities, there was no kind of stat progression and you were happy if you used siege a lot and indifferent otherwise.
Then they started sneaking in these stat buffing abilities with no notice or justification. There will be people who love them but I believe it goes very much against the no grind philosophy.
Just because you don’t agree with what I say doesn’t make it false, you simply don’t agree. In this context the proper term is “Disagree” not false.
Anyways, people did want progression in WvW that is fact. Anyways, it is not even grind, you don’t NEED it to do well in WvW, you might WANT it, but you don’t NEED it. Grind is doing something you hate doing to progress. I guess in that context if you hate WvW then progression would be a grind which really makes it moot, imo.
Back to my point people wanted a way to progress IN WvW. Personally, I don’t really care one way or the other, but I do know that this is what some players wanted for months, it might not be what you wanted but that is the nature of the beast. One of the thigns I was thought to do is when I complain about something I offer suggestions maybe you should as well.
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
False. While there were some people calling for progression for months, many insisted against_stat_ progression. So when they first introduced WXP abilities, there was no kind of stat progression and you were happy if you used siege a lot and indifferent otherwise.
Then they started sneaking in these stat buffing abilities with no notice or justification. There will be people who love them but I believe it goes very much against the no grind philosophy.
Uh….what? This is WvW. It has nothing to do with grinding. If you wanted to “grind” out that much WXP, it would take you 10x as long as just playing the WvW game normally and having fun with it. WXP is very minimal from grind-able content…and that’s by design.
In five hours of exciting awesome fun in WvW last night I ranked up 4 times. FOUR times.
When things aren’t exciting or we’re just doing small group “grindy” things like killing vets or taking camps, I rarely make even one rank per night.
If anything, the new stuff is anti-grind, not the other way around.
Exciting? Judging from mos TC is steamrolling its opposition, and it sounds like you were just rolling with the zerg from one keep to the next. You have a very simple idea of fun.
We had several fights on KNBL last night that lasted 10-15 minutes. Our zerg size maxed out at 42 players and usually stayed in the low-to-mid 30s (we ran tagless for 90% of the evening). KN had just as many on the map, though they seemed to be less unified/organized. They exceeded our number by quite a bit at a few points throughout the evening.
FA also had comperable zergs show up a couple times throughout the night, but they didn’t stay long.
I’m honestly not interested in the overall “score” steamrolling. PPT play is boring, and wiping 15 with 40 is boring. Last night was fun because we lost some fights, won most fights, and faced a lot of even-numbered opponents.
I got the entire evening on video. Once I edit it down to the highlights (it’s currently over 5 hours long), I’d be glad to share it as proof. The evening ended with fight in KNBL garrison’s lord room that lasted over 15 minutes. That’s not “steamrolling” by any definition.
I would be very interested in seeing that video. Since I was with that group and at one point TC even split in two. One on each side of hill I guess to show their size. Each of the two groups was bigger then the single Kainite force there.
This was the same group that went to defend Garrison, we called in reinforcements of about the same size from BMS (great folk there) and then we had the TC group + the FA group all hitting garrison at the same time. Was fun… but when you consider we had to give up everything from the other lands in order to field those numbers and you probably did not (since RE wasnt in force I know you had at least the same number elsewhere) That is the definition of steamrolling lol
Not that is was bad mind you. Its simply a fact. TC can field a WHOLE lot more then Kaineng can and it would seem FA as well.
I have seen TC with double the numbers of KN troops. Can easily wipe us, yet still flash build ACs in the middle of the fight hehe… show offs. ;P
but how is a plain stat boost a “specialized” thing in WvW when every other ability is situational?
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
False. While there were some people calling for progression for months, many insisted against_stat_ progression. So when they first introduced WXP abilities, there was no kind of stat progression and you were happy if you used siege a lot and indifferent otherwise.
Then they started sneaking in these stat buffing abilities with no notice or justification. There will be people who love them but I believe it goes very much against the no grind philosophy.
Just because you don’t agree with what I say doesn’t make it false, you simply don’t agree. In this context the proper term is “Disagree” not false.
Anyways, people did want progression in WvW that is fact. Anyways, it is not even grind, you don’t NEED it to do well in WvW, you might WANT it, but you don’t NEED it. Grind is doing something you hate doing to progress. I guess in that context if you hate WvW then progression would be a grind which really makes it moot, imo.
Back to my point people wanted a way to progress IN WvW. Personally, I don’t really care one way or the other, but I do know that this is what some players wanted for months, it might not be what you wanted but that is the nature of the beast. One of the thigns I was thought to do is when I complain about something I offer suggestions maybe you should as well.
“A lot of people… then they… and now they…” You use the same pronoun to refer to those who called for stat progression and those who have always opposed it. Your specific choice of words doesn’t allow me any other way to interpret it apart from being a claim that I made one demand and subsequently contradicted myself when that demand was met. It’s a descriptive statement, not your opinion, and it’s flat out untrue.
The fastest way to get it by far is to zerg (in a higher tier), I don’t relish doing that, ergo it’s a grind. Haven’t even brought up the point that WXP is character based yet.
My suggestion would be to keep that focus of WXP on situational things like siege skills. Then you have specialists, and identities!
(edited by Bertrand.3057)
I do not like the path they are going with this stat bump for this wvw ability. Every other ability is very situational this one is global and affects individual player’s stats. Don’t say well you have to go kill guards first because we all know that the guards are a joke. This ability should only allow you to kill the guards or protect you from the guards more not other players.
QFT….
I would be very interested in seeing that video. Since I was with that group and at one point TC even split in two. One on each side of hill I guess to show their size. Each of the two groups was bigger then the single Kainite force there.
This was the same group that went to defend Garrison, we called in reinforcements of about the same size from BMS (great folk there) and then we had the TC group + the FA group all hitting garrison at the same time. Was fun… but when you consider we had to give up everything from the other lands in order to field those numbers and you probably did not (since RE wasnt in force I know you had at least the same number elsewhere) That is the definition of steamrolling lol
Not that is was bad mind you. Its simply a fact. TC can field a WHOLE lot more then Kaineng can and it would seem FA as well.
I have seen TC with double the numbers of KN troops. Can easily wipe us, yet still flash build ACs in the middle of the fight hehe… show offs. ;P
You’re right that overall TC outnumbers probably KN and FA combined. There’s unfortunately no way around that. :-/ I personally do wish the numbers field was more even.
It has been nice dealing with opponents this week that, although outnumbered overall, really understand the WvW game and are very challenging to fight anyway. I hope EP gets a chance this week to GvG CNB. We’re new to the GvG scene, but want all the experience we can get in it, win or lose. CNB seems very solid in our open-field experiences.
As far as open field ACs: You will never find EP doing that unless it’s in response to an opponent doing it first. I personally consider open field ACs to be a trash tactic verging on “cheating.” That’s just my personal view though. Shame on whoever was doing that to you. There were a couple other guilds and commanders on the map last night at a couple points, but we ran in our own tagless group.
I edited the final 15-minute KN garri fight into its own video, but I gotta make sure our guild leader is OK with with the fact that it includes our Mumble chatter before I share the link.
(edited by Hickeroar.9734)
If you are going to kitten and moan about the stats, then at least come up with some ideas and solutions on providing at least ONE WXP ability that someone that does not use siege would want to put points in.
There is 11 abilities of which over half are specific to siege.
The remaining five are:
- usekitten nus to damage against guards that no one needs or cares about
- useless decrease in damage taken by guards that no one needs or cares about
- useless decrease in damage taken and increase in damage given to faction mobs that folks care even less about then the guard ones.
- siege defense which provides so little bonus it is not even worth considering an ability
- extra supply that costs a fortune for extremely low return
The only thing useful to those of us that do not use siege are those stats and they cost 115 points. Granted if you play on a giant zerg server that can steam roll around taking objectives and tagging kills without much effort, 115 points may not be much, for everyone else it takes a bit of time.
The whole situational argument is a joke. Most fights take place near or within spitting distance of an objective with siege. AC’s and Ballista’s are dropped at almost every medium sized encounter.
A lot of players spent months whining about WvW progression, then they finally got it and now they are complaining that there is progression in WvW. Amazing.
It just goes to show you, being an MMO developer sucks, nobody knows what players want.
WXP is the crappiest “progression” system I’ve ever seen in an RvR game. Even LOTRO PvMP is better. For a AAA game like GW2, where WvW was the selling point for many people, to have a system like this is just shocking.
Bad progression is worse than no progression.
If you are going to kitten and moan about the stats, then at least come up with some ideas and solutions on providing at least ONE WXP ability that someone that does not use siege would want to put points in.
There is 11 abilities of which over half are specific to siege.
The remaining five are:
- usekitten nus to damage against guards that no one needs or cares about
- useless decrease in damage taken by guards that no one needs or cares about
- useless decrease in damage taken and increase in damage given to faction mobs that folks care even less about then the guard ones.
- siege defense which provides so little bonus it is not even worth considering an ability
- extra supply that costs a fortune for extremely low returnThe only thing useful to those of us that do not use siege are those stats and they cost 115 points. Granted if you play on a giant zerg server that can steam roll around taking objectives and tagging kills without much effort, 115 points may not be much, for everyone else it takes a bit of time.
Fair question. The original form of guard leech (current form still does) gives health when attacking guards. Makes sense as the sort of thing that might help someone while fighting with NPCs still alive in a camp/trying to solo a camp. Why not focus on bonuses that would only be active with NPCs present? Then it’d help a lot if it were players vs. players and NPCs, but not if it were players vs. players.
Another alternative, which I don’t particularly favour, but which would at least make more sense is if it required something considerable like 25 guard stacks for the full effect.
Honestly, I don’t think WXP bonuses need to be provided for things outside of the PvE/siege aspects of WvW. Part of the beauty of WvW is that it has different audiences, and those who are interested in novelties, character progression, and the large-scale siege warfare aspect should be satisfied with guard-killing and siege operation bonuses. Many of those who sincerely play WvW for the PvP aspect don’t really care for stat progression, because then the game just becomes less of a challenge the longer they play.
The issue with these guard killer and defense lines is that it’s an encroachment of the one aspect of WvW upon the other. And as you point out, it’s extremely expensive, such that it’s only obtainable by focusing on zerg warfare, sieging, and WXP ranking.
Fact remains that 450 stat points is a big glowing carrot for those who spend a lot of time working out their gear and builds, and the last thing we need is more WXP zerging.
(edited by Bertrand.3057)
If you are going to kitten and moan about the stats, then at least come up with some ideas and solutions on providing at least ONE WXP ability that someone that does not use siege would want to put points in.
There is 11 abilities of which over half are specific to siege.
The remaining five are:
- usekitten nus to damage against guards that no one needs or cares about
- useless decrease in damage taken by guards that no one needs or cares about
- useless decrease in damage taken and increase in damage given to faction mobs that folks care even less about then the guard ones.
- siege defense which provides so little bonus it is not even worth considering an ability
- extra supply that costs a fortune for extremely low returnThe only thing useful to those of us that do not use siege are those stats and they cost 115 points. Granted if you play on a giant zerg server that can steam roll around taking objectives and tagging kills without much effort, 115 points may not be much, for everyone else it takes a bit of time.
The whole situational argument is a joke. Most fights take place near or within spitting distance of an objective with siege. AC’s and Ballista’s are dropped at almost every medium sized encounter.
“first response”
x points, probably like 50 or more
allows character to use a contested waypoint if a white x is not present on the keep
buff supply carrier to cost a bit less so its psychological entry barrier is more on par with everything else. (waiting for 20 ranks for just the first point is a strong disincentive when all the siege lines have really useful stuff for 5 or 15 points, and guard lines cost so little to start)
a trait line that gives magic/gold find, or better, replace the current guard line stat bonuses w/ mf/gf.
a trait line that gives you a commander hat (wtf anet y u no do dis).
merc line extension: remove a condition (or stunbreak or both) when struck by a merc.
all of these would provide interesting perks useful to wvw while not messing around with combat stat increases. however, it isnt our job to come up with this stuff. its the wvw team’s. as players, you shouldnt expect us to be motivated to do anything except express our (dis)pleasure.
(edited by insanemaniac.2456)
Nice ability.
Ppl, who like ac’s can learn ac traits.
Other guys, who like to kill ppl who like ac’s can learn guard trai’s. It’s fair/
My guild dont interested in “arrowcarting” from walls, so we’re lvling for these two new lines and bunker siege.
Honestly, I don’t think WXP bonuses need to be provided for things outside of the PvE/siege aspects of WvW. Part of the beauty of WvW is that it has different audiences, and those who are interested in novelties, character progression, and the large-scale siege warfare aspect should be satisfied with guard-killing and siege operation bonuses. Many of those who sincerely play WvW for the PvP aspect don’t really care for stat progression, because then the game just becomes less of a challenge the longer they play.
The issue with these guard killer and defense lines is that it’s an encroachment of the one aspect of WvW upon the other. And as you point out, it’s extremely expensive, such that it’s only obtainable by focusing on zerg warfare, sieging, and WXP ranking.
Fact remains that 450 stat points is a big glowing carrot for those who spend a lot of time working out their gear and builds, and the last thing we need is more WXP zerging.
Your entire view is flawed in my opinion. There is no challenge now. The number of quality players in this game diminishes patch by patch. The challenge for PvP in WvW has never been about facing even numbers and fighting it out, and thus extra stats might turn the tide of the fight, the challenge instead is entirely about fighting larger and larger groups than your own. Extra stats changes nothing other than increase the number of people we can take on.
I have no idea where this belief comes from that folks that play for PvP have no desire in progression, everyone enjoys some form of progression, why would WvW PvP folks be any different? If you didnt want progression at all, then you would more likely favor sPvP over WvW PvP. They are entirely different play styles regardless of all the bleaters that seem to think otherwise.
The WvW PvP crowd is not going to run around zerging for WXP points, they will always lag behind the zergs on points because the system favors the zerg.
(edited by Niim.9260)
You make some good points, but I think you’ve contradicted yourself a lot to the effect that the message of your post has been lost.
You say, “If you didn’t want progression at all, then you would more likely favor sPvP over WvW PvP.” In the following sentence you say, “They are entirely different play styles”. I agree with the second statement, which makes the first point moot. I play WvW because it’s a different play style from sPvP, not because it has progression.
You say, “The WvW PvP crowd…. will always lag behind the zerg on points” (I agree), but in your first paragraph you say, “extra stats might turn the tide of the fight”. My point is exactly that even if we wanted the extra stats… They’d belong to the zerg.
I believe that the progression that the WvW PvP crowd is looking for exists, and has always existed, in this game. It’s the kind of progression that depends on there being quality players, and on one’s being able to develop as an individual and as a team. There is still much that I am learning in this game, and as I learn, I progress.
Of course, if this game ceases to have quality players, people willing to push the limits of what their guilds can do through coordination and skill, then that progression will disappear. But no amount of stat progression will fix that. Why should it? It’s an empty, meaningless substitute for a real challenge. It’s mere numbers in the game engine. The real danger is that any stat progression introduced now will simply act to discourage and smother that PvP community.
Nice ability.
Ppl, who like ac’s can learn ac traits.
Other guys, who like to kill ppl who like ac’s can learn guard trai’s. It’s fair/
How is it fair when someone investing in a traitline meant to be affecting combat against guards only confers an advantage against regular players?
Nice ability.
Ppl, who like ac’s can learn ac traits.
Other guys, who like to kill ppl who like ac’s can learn guard trai’s. It’s fair/How is it fair when someone investing in a traitline meant to be affecting combat against guards only confers an advantage against regular players?
This ^ no where is it suppose to be against other players “just” guards!
This bonus supposed to be against all then, if Anet would rename these 2 traitlines, it’s ok, right?
You say, “If you didn’t want progression at all, then you would more likely favor sPvP over WvW PvP.” In the following sentence you say, “They are entirely different play styles”. I agree with the second statement, which makes the first point moot. I play WvW because it’s a different play style from sPvP, not because it has progression.
A big part of that difference is one has progression and the other does not. It was not a contradiction, it was a connection to the discussion. There is a difference between ‘likely’ and ‘will’.
You say, “The WvW PvP crowd…. will always lag behind the zerg on points” (I agree), but in your first paragraph you say, “extra stats might turn the tide of the fight”. My point is exactly that even if we wanted the extra stats… They’d belong to the zerg.
Zerg will have them, but it will be more mixed with people that like to face roll siege masteries and the reality is that those stats in the hands of a zerglet is not going to be nearly as useful as the coordinated group.
I believe that the progression that the WvW PvP crowd is looking for exists, and has always existed, in this game. It’s the kind of progression that depends on there being quality players, and on one’s being able to develop as an individual and as a team. There is still much that I am learning in this game, and as I learn, I progress.
Quality players hit the skill cap of this game months ago, many months ago. Progression on that front died a long time ago and either way that is hardly a progression system. I fight cause I like fighting people, I like running into the odd quality player, that doesn’t mean it is a substitute for a progression system.
The real danger is that any stat progression introduced now will simply act to discourage and smother that PvP community.
This is used in every progression system debate ever held and it is deeply flawed. First of all every game make it easier to enter the progression system as the game goes along, which keeps the gap from getting too wide. Second in this game where everyone runs around in a giant ball, they will not even notice the difference.
Progression system should be for all play types and if it’s not going to be stats then start pushing for something worthwhile for the rest of us that play the game. Meaningful and useful abilities that are worth putting points into, because what we have now is kitten. Until then I think the stats are a much needed addition.
So my take away from this is that you need stat progression in order to play a game? Why do you need the stats because you aren’t able to win on equal footing or because you cannot rest until you have min/maxed yourself to perfection? These are not meant to be mean. I play the game because I enjoy the combat and having fun with friends but to have to feel like I I’m chasing a carrot to play is no incentive for me.
This bonus supposed to be against all then, if Anet would rename these 2 traitlines, it’s ok, right?
No because at some point it becomes a barrier to entry for new players.
Bad idea. It goes against the design philosophy of being anti-grind and relatively easy accessibility.
I pretty much only play WvW and stand firmly against these changes. I also like to play different characters – this policy encourages one to play one character which is bad for the longevity of the game.
2500 hp can be 20% of a thief’s hp.
A big part of that difference is one has progression and the other does not. It was not a contradiction, it was a connection to the discussion. There is a difference between ‘likely’ and ‘will’.
I simply don’t see a direction relation of progression systems to play style. But if you’re going to conjecture about what people likely want, the best I can do is offer my opinion (and the opinion of those I’ve talked to) as evidence.
Furthermore, what you’re implying is that if sPvP did involve progression, that would make it more attractive to WvW players. If sPvP involved progression, you can’t argue that it would be anything but a mess. From my experience what players really love about WvW PvP is the variety and unpredictability of the environment, not to the fact that they could earn badges for new gear.
Quality players hit the skill cap of this game months ago, many months ago. Progression on that front died a long time ago and either way that is hardly a progression system. I fight cause I like fighting people, I like running into the odd quality player, that doesn’t mean it is a substitute for a progression system.
This I disagree strongly with. The good players are the ones who keep developing and tinkering their approaches, the bad ones are those who convince themselves that they’ve reached the limits of their skill. Look at all the complaints about “Nerf Profession X” by players who refuse to look in the mirror and consider what it is that they are doing wrong, then look at something like Osicat’s thread where he continually tweaks his mesmer and makes adjustments to meet both patch changes and the improvement of his adversaries.
Looking even at an apex guild like RG, I saw weaknesses and opportunities for growth when I watched their GvG videos. I am certain that if you brought one of the top WvW guilds in a time machine forward several months to face itself today, the older version would be trounced.
Progression system should be for all play types and if it’s not going to be stats then start pushing for something worthwhile for the rest of us that play the game. Meaningful and useful abilities that are worth putting points into, because what we have now is kitten. Until then I think the stats are a much needed addition.
That’s a rather bold claim, and one you’ve done nothing to justify. Extended progression systems are nothing more than a crutch for players who think grinding (i.e. mindless play) rather than practice (i.e. thoughtful play) is what constitutes effort and deserves to be rewarded. I keep seeing stat progression proponents talk about what’s “needed to keep players in the game”, so often in third person, so please do answer Joey’s question about why you personally want stat progression.
As for why I didn’t offer a specific solution when I made this thread, it’s because the solutions have already been offered so many times. Stat progression is not content, and what the game needs is richness of content to keep people engaged. Not necessarily novel content, just variety: variety of builds, skills, terrain, maps, etc. What I love in this game is being able to try different things, not feeling punished for playing different characters.
My view of WXP is that it’s a novelty. As a novelty, it’s a nice addition, but the bonuses it confers should remain trivial.
One addition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph4TvG2d8PM
If this is any indication of its current state, GvG cheerleading is itself an eSport with a long and promising future ahead of it.
Everquest, kill 10,000 crushbone orcs to get ally faction with kelethin
Guild Wars 2 do 10,000 events to get a certain wvw rank to achieve a bonus.
It’s a lot easier and faster to kill crushbone orcs than farm quests/glory/badges.
They don’t call this grind wars 2 for nothing, it takes 19 years for average joe to get to rank 80 in pvp, who knows how long to get yakslapper in wvw.
Grind wars 1 was a lot worse so better not complain, it toke the 1st person 7 years to reach dragon rank, in Grind wars 2 in couple more months 1-3 people that I’ve seen have chance to reach dragon rank if they stay dedicated (highest rank now is 69 that I’ve seen in PvP, 11 more ranks!!)
Capture keep title 10 years
Capture Castle title 10 years
Capture Tower title 10 years
Capture Camp title 10 years
Escort yak title 10 years
50 years from now you can smile and say you got 5 titles from WvW in GW2 and your still working on the other ones. The only good thing is that titles actually mean something, but is it worth 50 years of your life to obtain??? YOU DECIDE!!
I think so, I’m going for Yakslapper and when I get that title im going to apply for CEO of Microsoft, yakslapper on my resume will guaranteed me a job and i’ll get extremely rich!
(edited by uberkingkong.8041)
Grind wars 1 was a lot worse so better not complain, it toke the 1st person 7 years to reach dragon rank, in Grind wars 2 in couple more months 1-3 people that I’ve seen have chance to reach dragon rank if they stay dedicated (highest rank now is 69 that I’ve seen in PvP, 11 more ranks!!)
By that logic you might as well call Microsoft Pinball 2000 a “Grind Ball 2000” since it has no cap in the amount of points you can get.
What we are talking about here is that the game allows you to grind for rewards that give signifigant advantage over other players. Also known as “Grind to Win”. Hell, I’d rather have them selling 33% damage boosters in the Item Mall than this crap.
(edited by Master of Timespace.2548)
Doesn’t fit ANET’s no-grind philosophy at all. Pretty sure it will be normaled into something like becoming a buff that lasts 2 minutes in a future patch.
Side effect of those saying Ascended items were nothing to worry about. That told the devs
“Grind for stats = good” so here we are… GW2 is no longer the game it could have been… its the game we play until ESO or CU or whatever else comes out.
Doesn’t fit ANET’s no-grind philosophy at all. Pretty sure it will be normaled into something like becoming a buff that lasts 2 minutes in a future patch.
Arenanet never had a no grind policy. They do have a no block progression via grind but it doesn’t neccessarily mean they don’t have a grind policy. You can look at guild wars 1 nightfall for what I mean.
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