Guildcraft: Applying RTS logic to WvW

Guildcraft: Applying RTS logic to WvW

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Posted by: Chessrook.8643

Chessrook.8643

Every time I hear the zerg argument, I think back to the origin of the term, and how that situation applies. I think back to Starcraft. Because WvW, big as it is, when you think about it is basically an RTS without a commander (Unless someone spent 100 gold).

Now think… Starcraft had three sides. The Zerg, who brought immense amounts of units onto the field with low health and cost… the Protoss, who brought small amounts of units onto the field with high health and high cost… and the Terrans, who were in the middle.

Here’s the thing though… in server war like this, you can’t control the “Cost” to field units. The only cost is the amount of manpower present in the server. Health and Power is also tossed out the window, as due to having to balance everything there’s no chance for different servers to have different stats. So no matter what, you’re always faced with the same sides facing each other. Zerg Vs Zerg. Protoss Vs Protoss. Terran Vs Terran.

Now those of you who have played Starcraft, or any RTS, think about what the battles were like when you had two of the exact same civilizations or races or whatever facing each other. I may not be an expert, but they eventually turned into a race of “Who can get the higher tech first?” Or, if starting with max tech level, “Who can get more resources first?”
Or, when all is even, when the tech is highest and the resources are turned onto limitless from the start… “Who can get the most forces out the fastest?”

THAT is the reason for zerging. Because we are balanced. WvW is Terran Vs Terran with limitless resources. We don’t have the benefit of choosing where to build our barracks and our bunkers. We can’t even choose how many marines we have marching behind the flamethrowers with ghosts sniping from the hill. All we’re given is a handfull of random units. The closest I’ve even seen to using a specific unit’s skill or ability is telling Guardians to put walls of reflection in narrow corridors or something, and the only unit control we have is siege.

So the few of you out there who are RTS players, think to yourself… when you have limitless resources, fixed points, and little to no control over unit production, with your opponent under the exact same situation….. how do you fight? How many options do you really have?

I dunno, maybe there’s more to it now that I think of it. Maybe I’m just rambling and want to start a discussion. I dunno.

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Posted by: Ruin.3461

Ruin.3461

No one commander has enough control over the forces at “their” disposal to execute tactics of any non-trivial duration. You can stay a couple moves ahead of your opponents at best, and only with good scouting intel that you may or may not get. As far as high level strategy goes, the potential is certainly there in theory, but in practice will never be attainable because your forces aren’t disciplined enough.

Tier 1 Casual

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Posted by: Lanthrudar.1437

Lanthrudar.1437

Actually I’ve described WvW as a giant, interactive RTS game, because with supply acting as the standard wood/food/money, having to capture/defend specific area’s, it’s exactly that. It even has a giant, shiny, lemming magnet in the middle for all those who can’t get the strategic aspect of things.

Glad someone else made the connection.

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Posted by: Chessrook.8643

Chessrook.8643

Ruin, good point, I forgot to add in that your units do not always obey orders, at best following your big shiny mouse and at worse wandering to all corners of the map.

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Posted by: Glitter.7634

Glitter.7634

Ooooh, Shiney!

An unblemished topic to discuss.

I agree with the OP and the other posters here in that WvW is still largely undiscovered by the average GW2 player and still new to far more players than we WvWer’s care to admit…

How do you maximize your potential benefits and minimize your enemy’s to gain the upperhand? All the while, controlling your mindless Zerg and keeping things interesting for the new casual players? AND at the same time using your strongest, fastest, hardest players to storm your short term objectives… While looking to your team’s progression?

Exactly as stated above – training, discipline, and patience.

We expect a lot out of WvW when in reality we have put VERY little time in to it! 5 and 1/2 months and several claim to be Field Marshall’s just for the sake of glory!?!?

Let’s all learn and grow and have fun!

Invictus Aeturnum (IA) ~ Dragonbrand since August 2012 ~
Glitter Monkey (Warrior) / Phlaxis (Thief) / Svetlana Demitrova (Guardian)

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Posted by: Chessrook.8643

Chessrook.8643

Very true. What I’d like to see is real WvW guilds that actually have that discipline you speak of. Actually forming ranks and using the right classes at the right times. Guardians at the front putting up reflection walls to protect their elementalists raining fire and ice in the distance! Warriors charging to the front, screaming, distracting the enemy from the thieves sneaking up and stabbing them in the back! Mesmers mixed with the warriors, making the force seem bigger than it is! Rangers and Necromancers providing ranged support! Engineers…. uh… doing whatever engineers do!

You know, actual planning and usage of the different classes beyond “EVERYONE RUN FORWARD AND ATTACK!”

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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

For those who played it, I imagine being a commander in WvW at the moment is very similar to playing Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim. Except that in WvW, you can’t set bounties on the things you want attacked. I feel for them.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

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Posted by: Bertrand.3057

Bertrand.3057

Ah, but there aren’t limitless resources, because supply is still required to bring your fortifications to the max tech level. As in RTS, when facing an enemy who can evenly match you head on, your success will come from doing everything in your power to ensure their economy struggles while keeping your own well-defended.

A few other important lessons that carry over:
You need to pay attention to the positioning of your forces, poorly positioned soldiers can do nothing for you.
Your forces should always be active/serving some purpose. This is usually easier in a game where all the soldiers are living people.
You have nothing to gain by engaging the enemy in a battle that can’t be won, unless it puts them out of position. Even then it’s better to retreat so that the threat given by your outnumbered group remains.
You have nothing to gain from winning a battle if you don’t seize the opportunities it opens up.

Talleyrand, Captain and Commander of the Bloody Pirates
Asura on patrol in defense of Gandara and Bessie!
Administrator of http://thisisgandara.com

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Posted by: Genev.2450

Genev.2450

Very true. What I’d like to see is real WvW guilds that actually have that discipline you speak of. Actually forming ranks and using the right classes at the right times. Guardians at the front putting up reflection walls to protect their elementalists raining fire and ice in the distance! Warriors charging to the front, screaming, distracting the enemy from the thieves sneaking up and stabbing them in the back! Mesmers mixed with the warriors, making the force seem bigger than it is! Rangers and Necromancers providing ranged support! Engineers…. uh… doing whatever engineers do!

You know, actual planning and usage of the different classes beyond “EVERYONE RUN FORWARD AND ATTACK!”

Hardcore guilds used to be that organised, my old guild was pretty specific about class usage, these guys are frontliners, 3-2-1-next-one-uses-some-skill etc.
And then i guess the commanders realised that it wasn’t necessary. At all. Because everything just folded.

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Posted by: Ireniicus.2167

Ireniicus.2167

Ah, but there aren’t limitless resources, because supply is still required to bring your fortifications to the max tech level. As in RTS, when facing an enemy who can evenly match you head on, your success will come from doing everything in your power to ensure their economy struggles while keeping your own well-defended.

A few other important lessons that carry over:
You need to pay attention to the positioning of your forces, poorly positioned soldiers can do nothing for you.
Your forces should always be active/serving some purpose. This is usually easier in a game where all the soldiers are living people.
You have nothing to gain by engaging the enemy in a battle that can’t be won, unless it puts them out of position. Even then it’s better to retreat so that the threat given by your outnumbered group remains.
You have nothing to gain from winning a battle if you don’t seize the opportunities it opens up.

As someone that plays a lot of SC2 I can tell you I never send my workers to jumping puzzles nor do they sit idle at their base or spend inordinate amounts of time beating themselves against a well fortified position whilst doing little to no damage.

That all said this is a great and very insightful post

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Posted by: Baelnorn.5710

Baelnorn.5710

A great idea but I think for that to work ArenaNet would need to greatly improve the tools a commander has at hand to manage his lemmi… uhm… squad.

It could work if a squad wasn’t just a bunch of people with yellow chat, but rather much more organised. I’d imagine a squad to be composed of several units (each unit having a leader) and each unit to be composed of several groups (each group having a leader as well).

Now add the ability for the commander and the leaders to set (chains of) waypoints for the whole squad/a specific unit/a specific group and we’re getting there. This would allow a commander or unit leader to much more effectively lead the other players and actually work out strategies and tactics like proper flanking, or simultaneous capping of far away objectives.

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Posted by: MRA.4758

MRA.4758

I like the viewpoint of the OP, but I still think WvW isn’t all Zerg v Zerg. Sure, the Zerg is maybe the most visible (and even largest by sheer numbers) active group in WvW. It is just such an easy starting point for “random” players that do not care that much for “structured WvW”.

But you do also need your fair share of Protoss players, i.e., smaller, highly specialized guild squads that disrupt enemy supply lines, protect their own, create diversions, or just harass lost zerglings. And you also need your Terrans, that are building siege and are upgrading bases to build a strong defense. Of course, thier deeds are not as visible as the next Zerg bashing at a door, but they are just as important.

In my opinion, only a server who has healthy balance of Zerg, Protoss, and Terran players is able to succeed in the higher brackets.

~MRA

IGN: Peavy (Asuran Engineer)
Tyrian Intelligence Agency [TIA]
Dies for Riverside on a regular basis, since the betas

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Posted by: vespers.1759

vespers.1759

this isn’t starcraft. these are not units, they are players. i’ve found that most real people are not inclined to listen to a blue dot yelling at them in map chat.

go ahead, try to “command” me. it ain’t gonna happen.

Bristleback can’t hit anything? Let’s fix the HP bug instead.

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Posted by: Besetment.9187

Besetment.9187

Large zergs are not difficult to deal with as long as you are structured in your approach. You do need enough knowledgeable players using the tools necessary to dismantle large teams however. Over time it becomes an attrition thing because structured teams are difficult to maintain over time. For example, if you rely on a Mesmer and Necro with excellent well/null field placement and they log out to eat, your capacity to remove boons is very much diminished.

A server that actively recruits can keep throwing numbers at you until your structure collapses. You nevertheless pay a big price for zerging up and you can capitalize on such weaknesses under certain circumstances. If you concentrate enough players in one place on the map to overcome all individual weakness in combat, you naturally cede much of your ability to react to concurrent threats on the map. Your scouting and ability to guard supply camps/walk dolyaks and man defensive siege is diminished because so many players that should do these things are running in a giant pack and are required to do so for team synergy.

There are also very significant weaknesses to running large groups that move in a tight formation stacking boon duration. They are extremely vulnerable to targeted use of static fields, frozen grounds, wells (of corruption/power), null fields, sanctuary bubbles, rings/lines of warding etc. They are very vulnerable to mass control (knockdown, stun, daze, chill, cripple) which forces a team to separate/break apart so they cannot share buffs or combo off each other effectively.

I think that boon removal is a little too limited right now. Targeted boon removal needs to be a bit more prevalent and there needs to be a method available to some or all classes to remove or “pierce” boons like stability which totally negate control effects. Running in larger groups just lets you have greater stability uptime compounding the problem.

Nevertheless, it is easier to structure small teams than it is to structure very large teams. Another great weakness of zerging is that controlling every player and using every skill to best effect is often impossible. Getting large numbers of players to move correctly, spot and use terrain advantage is harder than if you have less players desiring structure.

Ultimately I think it is best to take an iterative and fluid approach to team composition. You cannot always have the tools you need for every conceivable circumstance so you need to make do with what you have. I think education is of primary importance since the goal is to inspire as many players as possible to play well, to not treat defeat as failure but rather as discovery of methods that do not work.

On one level zergballing works because having so many players in a tight formation increases the likelihood of benefiting other members in the team through synergy/sharing even if it is accidental. But overreliance on same breeds in weakness and zergball teams like this can be dismantled or at times avoided altogether in order to accomplish objectives that matter. Have you ever seen 30 enemies charge into a null field/static field/frozen ground? I have. You get alot of loot bags if you are capable of controlling the movement of your enemy (by seeking terrain advantage, using cheap AoE, marks etc to herd players into avoiding them).

I would encourage dueling/sparring. I think it is important to play every class so you are aware of the limits of what can you can achieve and what contribution you are capable of making in team.

I’m not keen on high levels of structure like in Guild Wars 1 because it is a double edged sword. GW1 was insanely structured to the point where if you didn’t have one very specific person playing one very specific character build, your team build does not work. GW2 calls for a more fluid and adaptive approach but it is sadly not talked about enough.

The talk is mostly about winning games via attrition – usually by throwing more resources (supply and manpower) at your opponent than they can at you, thus wearing them down faster.

(edited by Besetment.9187)

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Posted by: Chessrook.8643

Chessrook.8643

Nice to see input on the strategy that there IS in the game. I look on the forums and… I know there’s small groups here and there, but you hear about people talking about the zerg so much, and the zerg is talked about so often in the Team or Map chat, you just don’t hear about the strategy very often. When I see a commander, almost every time he/she is just escorting a zerg about.

Maybe I’d just like to see one really effective use of tactics. Say a zerg attacking the NW part of the Garrison, or a treb assaulting a wall, distracting the enemy from the small group of four ramming down the watergate. I dunno.

Either way, the conversation has certainly been interesting.

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Posted by: Wen Jie.8920

Wen Jie.8920

I like the viewpoint of the OP, but I still think WvW isn’t all Zerg v Zerg. Sure, the Zerg is maybe the most visible (and even largest by sheer numbers) active group in WvW. It is just such an easy starting point for “random” players that do not care that much for “structured WvW”.

But you do also need your fair share of Protoss players, i.e., smaller, highly specialized guild squads that disrupt enemy supply lines, protect their own, create diversions, or just harass lost zerglings. And you also need your Terrans, that are building siege and are upgrading bases to build a strong defense. Of course, thier deeds are not as visible as the next Zerg bashing at a door, but they are just as important.

In my opinion, only a server who has healthy balance of Zerg, Protoss, and Terran players is able to succeed in the higher brackets.

~MRA

Zergs are overpowered in GW2, just like in SC2 ( j/k)

One of the problems with Protoss is that while their “deathball” is incredibly powerful, as soon as you start splitting it up their combat effectiveness crashes. The same thing happens in wvw where a large group of 20-30 can easily clump together and stack every boon on its members, as well as get a tonne of area healing and condition removal, while smaller groups have trouble with the same thing.

SoS JQ SoS