In the end, haters gonna hate. Those who do not think ranger is or will be viable will never think so. Regardless of any buff
That is not true. At release the Ranger was a more viable WvW class across the board. The constant nerfs has left it on the sidelines. People both on the forums and in the game are reflecting its current status which is a poor one not just “hating”.
Ultimately the class has always had an identity crisis. It should have been the fastest class in the game by a good margin able to run down any class and fly across maps. One day ANet may pay homage to its heritage and make it so.
In the end, haters gonna hate. Those who do not think ranger is or will be viable will never think so. Regardless of any buff
That is not true. At release the Ranger was a more viable WvW class across the board. The constant nerfs has left it on the sidelines. People both on the forums and in the game are reflecting its current status which is a poor one not just “hating”.
Ultimately the class has always had an identity crisis. It should have been the fastest class in the game by a good margin able to run down any class and fly across maps. One day ANet may pay homage to its heritage and make it so.
it still is strong, it just takes a lot of skill to make the builds work, just like a thief (just more extreme in this manner) it is living on a knives edge…
@atherakia
You tell me that warriors running defy pain/zerker stance is more helpful to the zerg then a ranger running SoS? Cuz i haven’t seen more then a handful of warriors running with either or both of those stances in a LONG time, be it WvW or PvP too…..
And YES we do have poor movement WHEN YOU RUN LONGBOW…. Bring a sword + warhorn (great for PvD/destroying dollies) and GS, keep a LB in the inventory for the occasional siege defense. Bam, instant high mobility.
The weapon you choose defines your function. A warrior without GS or sword will have bad mobility no matter what, just like a ele without offhand dagger and/or FGS, or a thief without shortbow, or a engi without rocket boots.
I know YOU prefer the “bow ranger” over the “melee ranger”, you have admitted to that several times before, however poor mobility is the tradeoff of using longbow/shortbow.
Also, for crying out loud, all you do to move is stealth arrow, deselect target, swoop/lightning reflexes 90 degrees to any direction that is suitable. BAM, instant “headstart” on whoever is gonna chase you.
if your argument is “but their all chasing ME” then seriously. If you got their attention, tell your allies to bomb on your location and wipe them. Or if there is nothing to gain from stalling, and you dont have the skills/cooldowns to make it, just die quickly before you end up rallybotting.
You’re not thinking your arguments through as usual Prysin. You simply see my name and start foaming at the mouth.
Warrior vs. Ranger: Yes, that’s exactly what I’m telling you. A Ranger running SoS+Protect Me will offer next to nothing. A Warrior running nothing but a Hammer and every utility slot empty provides more to a group than a Ranger running SoS+ProtectMe.
Mobility: What exactly is a GS+Sw/Wh Ranger providing a GvG melee train? It’s providing less survivability and less utility while at the same time doing less damage than either a Guardian or Warrior. It needs to run RaO so there goes entangle (as if that will do anything in a melee train). Alternatively it could run signet for stability, but you’re trying to justify PM+SoS+SotW at that point? So that means no SotF for condi clear. God knows the pet will be long dead so EB (and for that matter PM) won’t work. How can you support yourself let alone help the group at all?
Stealth: So after you stealth with LB, swap to GS to escape, what are you providing your group for the next 9 seconds? You’re LB spec’d at this point with 0 traits to support GS. You’re likely in zerker so can’t join the train. You’re easily out kited by the other back like classes so even your singular Maul is of no help. What do you do other than hope your team can play without you for 9 seconds?
If all else fails, die: Well that’s kind of the whole point behind this thread I feel. Why bring the Ranger when the odds are stacked against it and in order to bring anything valuable to the group they need to specialize so heavily into that singular purpose they no longer have anything to offer the group or barely enough to sustain themself.
As much as you and I disagree, I really do have a Ranger. While I prefer to play ranged, I’m fully aware of the melee capabilities of the class. The entire Ranger class was designed to be a very strong duelist but as the group numbers go up, the value of the entire class starts going down. Exponentially so imo.
At any role you decide to specialize the Ranger in, they sacrifice too much just to do that role as good (at best) as another class while that class can still support their group (and themselves).
The class is simply designed like [censored].
(edited by Atherakhia.4086)
to be honest, you are not thinking through your own replies even.
A; if you build for 100% bow usage, you fail. You got a secondary weapon for a reason, and thus you should compliment it accordingly (meaning main focus on main weapon, secondary focus on secondary weapon. L2Buildcraft).
I never spoke of Protect Me, nor did you in the post i replied to, so that is your words and yours alone, not mine. Protect me is useless in group battles as even a bear will not last long enough or provide utility enough to justify it. (L2Petusage).
Then let me address utility. Melee train wise we WILL be doing less damage, but we can do so while providing something else. For starters, frost trap is a really underestimated tool against groups. Long cooldown, yes, smaller then staff ele’s? yes. Is an extra on demand ice field still good? Hell yes.
Entangle – Even if it lasts only 1.5 seconds, it will still slow down and concentrate or isolate the targets. Thus you can bomb them more easily (L2Groupplay), with less likelihood of missing.
Oh, and finally, if nothing of this fits your bill there is always that last resort. Rezbot.
Mercy runes, Nomads gear (complete nomads gear), Healers Celery and shout heals…. Quickening Zephyr utility. If something goes down, you’ll rez it back up before anything can stop you.
Post patch – Signet of the Wild + RaO for “secure” rezz.
But you’ll just cry “but warrior banners is better, or even elite spirit”…. yeah they are “better” but they got a brutally long cooldown making them incredibly valuable “last options”.
Seriously, do you even know what a ranger is capable of?
(edited by Prysin.8542)
to be honest, you are not thinking through your own replies even.
A; if you build for 100% bow usage, you fail. You got a secondary weapon for a reason, and thus you should compliment it accordingly (meaning main focus on main weapon, secondary focus on secondary weapon. L2Buildcraft).
I never spoke of Protect Me, nor did you in the post i replied to, so that is your words and yours alone, not mine. Protect me is useless in group battles as even a bear will not last long enough or provide utility enough to justify it. (L2Petusage).
Then let me address utility. Melee train wise we WILL be doing less damage, but we can do so while providing something else. For starters, frost trap is a really underestimated tool against groups. Long cooldown, yes, smaller then staff ele’s? yes. Is an extra on demand ice field still good? Hell yes.
Entangle – Even if it lasts only 1.5 seconds, it will still slow down and concentrate or isolate the targets. Thus you can bomb them more easily (L2Groupplay), with less likelihood of missing.
Oh, and finally, if nothing of this fits your bill there is always that last resort. Rezbot.Mercy runes, Nomads gear (complete nomads gear), Healers Celery and shout heals…. Quickening Zephyr utility. If something goes down, you’ll rez it back up before anything can stop you.
Post patch – Signet of the Wild + RaO for “secure” rezz.But you’ll just cry “but warrior banners is better, or even elite spirit”…. yeah they are “better” but they got a brutally long cooldown making them incredibly valuable “last options”.
Seriously, do you even know what a ranger is capable of?
I personally would go muddy terrain over entangle, just because of a shorter CD and less drawback if you’re blinded when you use it. I’m glad you mentioned frost trap, because I used to run with a CC heavy build (as you already know) and frost trap with 100% condi duration screwed over even warriors. The only problem, is frost trap really won’t have much effect without trap potency or higher condi duration.
One thing people need to stop thinking of with GvG’s is damage. A fight is not only damage. If you had a ranger specced to drop mass AoE CC (which ranger does best in the game btw), then you can and will slow down, even the enemy melee train. Immobilizing targets and getting them caught away from their group is the easiest way to kill them. 90% of the time, a CCed target, or somebody who is stuck, is a dead target, no matter what class/build they play. If you catch a melee out of his train, he will have to run just to catch up, possibly having to use a leap to stay in the train, instead of using that leap to get into the enemy. He may miss regroups, which could be vital for his healing. The fact immob stacks now, and rangers have so much access to AoE immob, they can wreck some serious havok on an enemy train. You even see it now with the top guilds using flurry instead of hammerstuns, because immob is king now.
It’s not all about damage in a GvG, sure rangers aren’t going to be as a tanky as other classes and may have less survivability options, but to say they are useless is a very wrong statement. That being said, none of these buffs really affect ranger’s CC capability other than the entangle change, but even without that ranger can still throw out more immob than anybody else.
Edit: a build like this for example:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNBjODbkQlOWrXxcFqWD0HUrPgAYsb9DsngRoEK4UD-TVyAABDcEAkUJoM6GA4BAM0+D6o+jXK/g+CAwxBBgUAiNsC-w
That condi duration with the immob and CD on immob skills means more CC than probably all of the warriors combined, however the one major drawback, is no stab/stunbreaker. However, like I said, entangle has the chance to miss if you’re blinded so RaO could be better, and even ditching spike trap for LR might also be a good bet. That build can also do some decent damage as well, so it could assist with some periphery fights.
(edited by warriorjrd.8695)
it still is strong, it just takes a lot of skill to make the builds work, just like a thief (just more extreme in this manner) it is living on a knives edge…
The P/D condi thief build is ridiculously hard to kill. I would go so far as to say when they do die it is because they messed up. This build is also a strong roaming build and has quite possibly the best and least used team immobilize in the game.
Kiting thieves are very hardy and require little skill to play… this is what brings them such ire even from their own kind. This is also somewhat true of mesmers.
it still is strong, it just takes a lot of skill to make the builds work, just like a thief (just more extreme in this manner) it is living on a knives edge…
The P/D condi thief build is ridiculously hard to kill. I would go so far as to say when they do die it is because they messed up. This build is also a strong roaming build and has quite possibly the best and least used team immobilize in the game.
Kiting thieves are very hardy and require little skill to play… this is what brings them such ire even from their own kind. This is also somewhat true of mesmers.
downside of P/D is the lack of group utility.
“best” option for group utility for thieves is venomshare + S/P. You shadowstep into the enemy, drop blind field (effectively blinding whole enemy group within a few seconds) and port back. Sword has cleave, so it will be the “most useful” option. SB offhand for AOE poison + weakness.
Yes I used a question in my OP to spur discussion on this topic. Does this mean I can’t express my opinions?
Also, a well played ranger should be nowhere near the melee train. You have 1200+ range on your longbow so use it! If the melee train decides you are a threat and comes for you, simply stealth, sword 2 back and leap away. If you are caught (which shouldn’t happen to any decent ranger) pop SoS ans spam sword/dagger evade. Your own melee train is going to have to work with you a bit on this. If the enemy comes for you they will be leaving their backs wide open. We have to assume we are taking about higher level play in which players know how to capitalize on their enemy’s mistakes.
Now to defense against thieves and mesmers. When a thief moves to burst you he leaves himself in a terrible spot; you can pop invuln and or evades. Thiefs have no invuls (to my knowledge) or at least none that they would take for a gvg. This forces the thief to pop his own dodge rolls and or shadow step before the reveal wears off. Mesmers will most likely pose a larger threat then thieves, as decoy works even with reveal. But then again, mesmers can’t consistently put up the numbers of thieves (or even rangers).
What’s this about not building for yourself? You are offering a condition clearing water field, on demand reveal, and lots and lots of damage. That seems like enough to me. I get to take 1 utility to save my own kitten .
Given that you realise rangers should never approach the front line, what do you think that water field is going to do? You vastly overstate the gank squad’s reliance on stealth if you think reveal will make a noticeable difference and you do not do ‘lots and lots of damage’. Destroyer warriors and death shroud necros do lots and lots of damage, rangers just have one good burst attack.
Coldtart, how much damage do you think a glassbow ranger can churn out?
Also, one good burst? well yes, techincally rangers got 4 bursts… Feline F2, Bird F2, Maul and Path of Scars. There is no other skills that even remotely classifies as “burst”
Given that you realise rangers should never approach the front line, what do you think that water field is going to do? You vastly overstate the gank squad’s reliance on stealth if you think reveal will make a noticeable difference and you do not do ‘lots and lots of damage’. Destroyer warriors and death shroud necros do lots and lots of damage, rangers just have one good burst attack.
A good focus party will stealth res any of their downed. A well timed sic em can prevent a res and garuntee the kill.
Ranger in a gank squad can work in a GvG
Problem is avoiding the train and the opposing teams gank. You will be targeted 1st and you will be dropped fast.
Keeping a single person off you as a ranger isn’t a problem but the amount that focus in agGvG is
Coldtart, how much damage do you think a glassbow ranger can churn out?
Also, one good burst? well yes, techincally rangers got 4 bursts… Feline F2, Bird F2, Maul and Path of Scars. There is no other skills that even remotely classifies as “burst”
Drake f2.
after the buffs in the next patch, rangers might be viable as a snipe role in gvgs, however i suspect they will have similar issues as d/d eles when they are playing a snipe role.
rangers wont have anyway to avoid focus fire from enemy snipe like thieves and mesmers can via stealth, rangers can’t chain stealth. rangers also traditionally have very weak condi clearing abilities. you will get shut down by a perplex pistol thief, should the other team decide to run one.
also any sort of long lasting chill will ruin rangers as well. for example a necro decides to jump into the snipe fight for a couple seconds.
with all these potential weaknesses, you might as well just put in another thief or mesmer, both are more survivable, and both haev higher burst.
if you dont play a ranger as snipe, then you might as well add a staff ele or guardian, both these classes contribute more damage, more aoe cc, and more healing/support that what a ranger can bring.
the real question is, sure a good guild might be able to make a ranger work, but whats the point? they don’t bring anything new, it’s a similar situation as an engi atm, i’ve seen some guilds use engies, but whats the point?
(edited by wads.5730)
A good squad should be mobile and moving as one unit.
Rangers single target damage and soft cc is perfect for a pick team, my worry would be the ranger bursting at range while the rest of the unit burst’s with melee then moves on leaves the ranger out as an easy target.
For it to work I think the ranger would have to have a greatsword handy to match the in combat mobility of thieves/mes/d/d ele.
lol you don’t need to wait for the new release to find ranger gank squads.
I think ranger is perfectly viable as a periphery gank in more casual WvW, and it will be so even more so after the next patch. For gank I think sword/axe with moment of clarity and then either longbow or Greatsword in the offset (probably GS). For legit GvGs, I don’t know to be honest. My guild probably wouldn’t let me bring ranger in a GvG as I’m on backup necro typically anyway, but apparently they tried it in the past before I joined the guild, and it didn’t work out for some reason, but I’m not sure why.
After the patch I see Axe/warhorn (or OH axe) and GS with hoelbrak runes and traited for CD reduction and cleanising on 3 survival skills as being the best set for an all purpose semi-midline/semi-frontline build in WvW. I think longbow does have potential with the changes, but I’m reluctant to use it since I view being far away from my group as a disadvantage (can’t recover, or peel out defensively as well, and enemy gank could pick you off unless you’re with your gank, in which case melee burst would be preferred).
Traited entangle and muddy terrain will help a lot with bombs, and lightning reflexes should be used to cleanse immobolize as its the most lethal condition in WvW. I like signet of stone or signet of the wild as the other util, since their actives will be much more useful after the patch. For traits, I’m not sure how necessary empathatic bond is, but I’d probably take either x/x/6/4/0 or x/x/4/6/0, with hoelbrak runes and a tanky valk/knights mix set up. I’m torn between spending the last 4 points in marksman for spotter (team support??) or for ferocious axe (my build needs more crit damage..).
For gank with sword axe, I’d probably take 4/6/4/0/0 to get moment of clarity and offhand training and spotter (to buff the squad). With longbow I’d probably go 6/6/2/0/0 for read the wind, MoC, and entangle CD reduction. Utilites would be lightning reflexes, signet of the wild, and probably sic em to help lock down mesmers and enemy thieves MUCH better (although other classes are proably getting revealed, so we don’t know hoe useful that would be)
Personally, I think we should get out of the longbow sniper mentality, and look at everything else a ranger has to offer. Oh, and maybe condition trap builds could be useful on gank? I have little knowledge of them, but I think its worth discussing.
Axe torch + gs rabid + dire trapper will do lots of damage. In spvp, traps can crit for 650-700 direct damage pr pulse, but spvp has a cap on crit damage and stats in general.
Having played lots of GvGs, I believe that there could be a spot for a ranger in a GvG team – more specifically in a focus party (or gank squad, as you people call it).
But that would be viable only for 1 round. You can swap out one thief/mesmer/dd ele, and take a LB+GS Ranger, full zerk, with Sic Em, RaO, Quickening Zephyr and SoS. Condi Removal food.
He just has to target an enemy thief, cast Rapid Fire+Quickening Zephyr, get him downed, shout his allies that the enemy is down, Sic Em, and have a thief stomp him.
It’s high risk, high reward. But you must swap it out the following round, because if the enemy expects a zerk ranger on the enemy team, they will just kill him before he does anything. RaO will be ripped by a thief and he will get trained so hard that you dont even need to waste banners on him.
And forget talking about useless stuff like torch, axe, Maul, dagger, TRAPS… geez…
Having played lots of GvGs, I believe that there could be a spot for a ranger in a GvG team – more specifically in a focus party (or gank squad, as you people call it).
But that would be viable only for 1 round. You can swap out one thief/mesmer/dd ele, and take a LB+GS Ranger, full zerk, with Sic Em, RaO, Quickening Zephyr and SoS. Condi Removal food.
He just has to target an enemy thief, cast Rapid Fire+Quickening Zephyr, get him downed, shout his allies that the enemy is down, Sic Em, and have a thief stomp him.
It’s high risk, high reward. But you must swap it out the following round, because if the enemy expects a zerk ranger on the enemy team, they will just kill him before he does anything. RaO will be ripped by a thief and he will get trained so hard that you dont even need to waste banners on him.And forget talking about useless stuff like torch, axe, Maul, dagger, TRAPS… geez…
I understand what you’re saying. Maul won’t be useuless in the next patch, and I merely brought up traps to discuss their viability in a gank setting, more as a tool for CC than actual burst. It would be helpful if you can justify why you think those things that you listed are bad. I do agree with you that zerker longbow ranger is merely a one trick pony, so we’d be better off discussing ranger choices that aren’t a one trick pony.
I think there is a disconnect here… GvG I assume implies both organized (XvX) and open field GvG. A ranger MAY work in open field fighting but I find it difficult to accept any serious organized GvG bringing a Ranger pre or post patch to the party.
Even in open field GvG, the Ranger just doesn’t bring the fire power AND escape that other outside fighters bring. It simply isn’t as effective as virtually every other class in a GvG setting. Most players know this and simply accept it. Maybe post patch when some of the weapons are beefed up but it doesn’t look like it to me.
I think there is a disconnect here… GvG I assume implies both organized (XvX) and open field GvG. A ranger MAY work in open field fighting but I find it difficult to accept any serious organized GvG bringing a Ranger pre or post patch to the party.
Even in open field GvG, the Ranger just doesn’t bring the fire power AND escape that other outside fighters bring. It simply isn’t as effective as virtually every other class in a GvG setting. Most players know this and simply accept it. Maybe post patch when some of the weapons are beefed up but it doesn’t look like it to me.
The patch will make it better as open field periph due to more might uptime and more entangles. Will that be good enough to make a difference? I hope so, but I’m not holding my breath on it :/
Having played lots of GvGs, I believe that there could be a spot for a ranger in a GvG team – more specifically in a focus party (or gank squad, as you people call it).
But that would be viable only for 1 round. You can swap out one thief/mesmer/dd ele, and take a LB+GS Ranger, full zerk, with Sic Em, RaO, Quickening Zephyr and SoS. Condi Removal food.
He just has to target an enemy thief, cast Rapid Fire+Quickening Zephyr, get him downed, shout his allies that the enemy is down, Sic Em, and have a thief stomp him.
It’s high risk, high reward. But you must swap it out the following round, because if the enemy expects a zerk ranger on the enemy team, they will just kill him before he does anything. RaO will be ripped by a thief and he will get trained so hard that you dont even need to waste banners on him.And forget talking about useless stuff like torch, axe, Maul, dagger, TRAPS… geez…
I understand what you’re saying. Maul won’t be useuless in the next patch, and I merely brought up traps to discuss their viability in a gank setting, more as a tool for CC than actual burst. It would be helpful if you can justify why you think those things that you listed are bad. I do agree with you that zerker longbow ranger is merely a one trick pony, so we’d be better off discussing ranger choices that aren’t a one trick pony.
First of all, “GvGs” are fight between two guild with EQUAL numbers: in these battles, you want to maximize the efficiency of all your groups (frontline, focus party, ranged) by using the BEST class setup you have. Every “slot” is meaningful, and using a “subpar” spec instead than an “optimal” spec is not advised.
As many people have already thoroughly explained, Ranger’s CCs are useless in a GvG.
The only “CCs” that work against a guild are:
1-Stuns
2-LONG DURATION Immobilize and Chill.
That’s why “Pulsing” CCs are not good: they cannot stack long enough to a single person (because of the AoE cap) to make a difference. Also, keep in mind that pretty much every frontliner runs Melandru/Hoelbrak with -Condi Duration food (and Warriors even run Dogged March).
Also, “Stuns” must be AoE and must have a low recharge, because the Stability upkeep of a good guild is near 100% and you have to be “lucky” to land your stuns on the person without Stability AND Stunbreakers to make him panic and kill him.
All these are easily provided by Warriors: Hammerstuns (AoE Stuns every 10s) and Flurry (4s AoE Immobilize every 10s). Even with a lot of -Condi Duration, a 4s Immob (which might become a 2s) is enough to guarantee a downed if you coordinate it with a burst and if the person caught by it is out of cooldowns.
Rangers simply don’t have the above mentioned tools. Frost Trap has short (1s), pulsing applications of Chill. Meaning that it will do close to nothing to a melee train. Muddy Terrain is not that bad, but again, the Immobilize is too short to be worth (Flurry is 100 times better). Also, Rangers don’t have access to AoE stuns.
The only good thing they could provide to a melee train is the Waterfield (which, if you have enough Eles, you won’t be lacking anyway) and the Warhorn Blast Finisher for good group buffs (but the Vigor from the Warrior’s one is still better).
A Ranger CANNOT replace either a Warrior or a Guardian as a frontliner for all the above mentioned reasons.
Speaking of the Focus Party, Conditions don’t work. I don’t know if you know the speed at which the members of a Focus Party kill people. Conditions are a no-no. Plus, it does not provide any group utility (the only group utilities which is worth having in a FP are AoE Stealth and Cleave).
Again, I can see a LB ranger to be a good choice for a few rounds (1, maybe 2) in a GvG – but that’s it. You basically have to catch the enemy guild off guard, so to snipe one of their gankers early on and gain the upper hand this way.
EDIT: in order for a profession to be viable in a GvG, think like this: “What can X profession offer that other professions don’t?”. So far, Ranger is completely outshined by every other profession for every role he could cover. If you find a spot in which you can say “Ranger does Y better than any other class”, then ask yourself if this “Y” is important in a GvG. Lastly, consider if the build you are speccing your Ranger around in order to use “Y” is viable (enough defenses to not be a rallybot, enough overall utility to prefer a Ranger over another profession).
(edited by hihey.1075)
Wall of Text
Okay thanks for clarifying. All of my extremely limited GvG experience is as a necro, so I’m not too knowlegdable about gank.
Would you still say a guild could run rangers for less structured open field fights without gimping the guild? Granted, its not what this thread is about, but still I think a ranger could work there if only for fun. Sigh/ anet sucks at class balance.. but I guess engis aren’t much better off in this environment.
Whatever happens to this patch it’s going to make a lot of rangers run back to the LB imo. My ranger is my main and WvW is all I do pretty much. I don’t use a bow but, post-patch, I might just try it out again.
The problem with rangers, and this has been said on many threads already, is that they are a class that you have to know exactly what you want to get done or else some other class will do it as good if not better. Too many players have created a ranger because either 1) it was a pretty solid well-rounded class in GW1 or 2) they like the idea of being a ranged specialist with some survivability. What follows is that the people who don’t really know how to build the rangers, see that something works in pve, try it in WvW and get obliterated and everyone has a good laughing session.
A lot of people build their rangers very differently. IMO it is the class with the most diversity as far as builds go because of your pet. Do you want your pet to help you or do you think your pet’s AI is still not all the way there and not trust it to get the job done? That’s actually why ranger’s were so under-powered in WvW is because ANet thought it’d be a great perk to the class but didn’t give pets and AI that’s formidable enough for actual players instead of mindless mob NPCs. The AI has been tweaked but it still could use a teeny bit more work I think.
It’s not a question of “will the patch make rangers usable in WvW” so much as it’s “will the people who know what they’re doing use the bonuses” and “will more people get used to the ranger’s playstyle in WvW and what their strengths are” because as I said a lot of people try to use a ranger to fill a warrior’s spot… well guess what they have warriors for that. A lot of people try to be dodgy and roll-y and evasive like a thief… well guess what they have thieves for that. Ranger’s are very versatile and I saw someone on this site who said something to the effect of “it’s difficult to be a class that can be 90% good at just about everything rather than a class that’s 100% in a few things”. You have to know what you want to do and how to adapt.
I am lvling a ranger as they are a fun class to roam with (the melee version). They are really strong in 1vs1s. Now that has been said.
Rangers wont be viable after the patch for GvGs. Thiefs/mesmers and warriors will always, in any case be better picks. You want to pew pew people from afar, so I am guessing you’ll be using longbow/greatsword or longbow/sword-dagger. And I am telling you that you’ll be the first one to go down and really fast aswel.
1) Poor mobility and repositioning or resetting skills
Signet of stone, is that all? Warrior can trait for double endure pain and shieldblock combined with high mobility to kite for days + can have a low CD leap to jump through smoke fields. Thiefs + mesmers can chain stealth for ages and heal back to full. Thief and warrior have insane mobility allowing them to stick to the target like glue. Or escape the enemy train.
2) Poor condi removal
Mesmer or warrior or even thief will root you down and burst you to downed state before you could react.
3) Worst source of CC
Immobilize? My warrior will experience it like a tiny lag spike and continue to bash your head in. Melee train has constant warhorn shouts and condi removals rendering roots useless, unless coordinated with a bomb. Warrior/thief/mesmer all have dazes and stuns.
4) No form of group support or stomp capabilities
You barely have stability, so you can’t stomp as you are standing miles away. Who cares if you take someone down when they get rezzed by the enemy train anyway. A warrior can stomp within the enemy train while they are dropping everything, thief can blink or stealth stomp. Not to mention stealth to rezz downed teammates or a warrior who can just tank everything while rezzing or pressuring the stompers with 100b.
5)Evades wont cut it
Your evade spam will end fast and wont bring you in safety, meaning you just survived kitten longer before you die. If a peripheral hunter dies fast in a GvG, it is pretty much already over. As they are the most important players on the field, wipe the enemy harassers and you have free game to take away all the healing and damage of the enemy train.
Sic em, entangle, longbow damage and or knockback and a immob trap wont cut it to survive or as CC or as enough utility to justify giving you a spot.
I played in countless GvGs watched tons of GvG streams and played with and against enormously good roaming groups. I have been actively GvGing for over 1.5 years. Let alone we have been theorycrafting tons of harasser setups to find the optimal set ups to counter the enemy harassers/kill peripherals as fast as possible. Synch builds, opening moves, burst timings/setups, etc.
And no, rangers just don’t fit in. Doesn’t matter how you twist or bend it.
The patch will make it better as open field periph due to more might uptime and more entangles. Will that be good enough to make a difference? I hope so, but I’m not holding my breath on it :/
As soon as a ranger uses Entangle I chuckle… it is quite possibly the worst elite in the game because it gets rangers to pick it over Rampage as One. The only thing Entangle does is immobilize crappy players and wastes a good elite against quality opponents. Entangle is useful when fighting scrubs… and a good ranger doesn’t need it then.
There is MAYBE a debate with a condi-bunker ranger but even then I will take a long stability, swiftness, fury and might over an immobilize/bleed on a long timer. Rangers also have few stability skills making RaO even more valuable in a group setting.
In the end, haters gonna hate. Those who do not think ranger is or will be viable will never think so. Regardless of any buff
lolwut? Min-maxers live to win. If the optimal class was a giant neon kitten that had a floating speech bubble that read “I am a huge tool who can’t win without this class!” they would still play it because it’s the best. Without hesitation.
If the Ranger received the holy golden buff that solved all of our problems 100% and we miraculously worked well, it would be used in GvG, without hesitation.
1.5 years of math, theory crafting, and actual play through crowd source has determined the ranger is ineffective in a large group fight and as such is not worth taking when the terms of a fight stipulate a limited number of players per team. There is no conspiracy and the only people who are ignoring reality are the folks who stick their fingers in their ears shouting how they can’t hear us and the ranger is totally rad if we’d just give it a shot.
*use one’s imagination to decide what I typed in place of ‘kitten’
Thing is that most gvg battles are within the “max group size” in which one ranger is effective. Beyond 15-20 people, one ranger is not going to be a noticably good teamplayer at all, that is a fact.
Thing is that most gvg battles are within the “max group size” in which one ranger is effective. Beyond 15-20 people, one ranger is not going to be a noticably good teamplayer at all, that is a fact.
Say’s who? I know of exactly ZERO rangers used in 15v15 GvG’s by any of the top GvG guilds either EU or NA….
Thing is that most gvg battles are within the “max group size” in which one ranger is effective. Beyond 15-20 people, one ranger is not going to be a noticably good teamplayer at all, that is a fact.
Say’s who? I know of exactly ZERO rangers used in 15v15 GvG’s by any of the top GvG guilds either EU or NA….
Ahem, let me explain why you see zero rangers in any GvG.
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENPEOPLEKITTENHATE RANGERS. DEMAND WAY MORE FROM A RANGER THEN A KITTEN WARRIOR KITTEN GUARDIAN OR KITTENKITTEN ELE.
True fact.
The biggest issue to any ranger ever partaking in GvG is the “min-max” fanboys, yes, fanboys. Because most min-max elitists ive met in WvW, regardless of NA or EU. All “think” they know what a ranger can or more importantly cannot do. And in most cases it has taken me less then 20 seconds to prove them wrong. Yes ranger cannot grant AOE aegis, AOE stability or AOE stealth. No it does not have portals. NO it does not have timewarp. No it does not have loads of burst AOE heals.
The same min-max fanboys also think that by using common 80 man zerg logic applied to any pet (regardless what type it is) pet must obviously die instantly. Because it is outright not feasible to press 2 buttons and make pet move or god forbid, swap pet before it dies (like you know, using your class mechanic right).
Then there is the lesser known facts about rangers, that have repeatedly been posted on this forum, the ranger forums and in the more recently created balance forum. These are known functions, several of which far surpass anything any other class can hope to produce. However these positive qualities MUST be negative because they a qualities tied to a RANGER. Sad fact, but undeniable.
Ranger Regen, albeit almost four times that of a warrior in addition to ranger regen being AOE is inferior to warrior regen in all circumstances according to most min-max fanboys you find in WvW. What does that tell you about the attitude towards rangers in the min-max GvG scene?
Ive met guilds who demand that ranger players must be mechanically and technically better then ANY other guild player if they want to bring a ranger. What does that tell you about attitudes towards the class? If your class happens to be a ranger, you must according to popular GvG guilds either be a gaming god, or a gaming jesus. Anything short of that is not sufficient to play a class that requires average human reflexes and perhaps surprisingly enough, a brain, to play.
/endrant
So back to the ‘l2p’ issue behind why no one has ever found a reason for the Ranger class to exist in WvW or GvG?
The class is designed like [censored]. No amount of skill will magically compensate the class for not being given the tools to succeed. It’s a dueling class. Plain and simple.
While not ‘useless’ (it does have a 1 key afterall), the class simply isn’t useful. It has been said numerous times in here. It was said in last night’s PvP stream. It was stated numerous times in the unofficial CDI and the official CDI.
It’s not a skill issue. It’s an ‘ANet had no vision or direction for the class since day 1 and it has been treading water for nearly 2 years’ issue.
Thing is that most gvg battles are within the “max group size” in which one ranger is effective. Beyond 15-20 people, one ranger is not going to be a noticably good teamplayer at all, that is a fact.
Say’s who? I know of exactly ZERO rangers used in 15v15 GvG’s by any of the top GvG guilds either EU or NA….
Ahem, let me explain why you see zero rangers in any GvG.
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENPEOPLEKITTENHATE RANGERS. DEMAND WAY MORE FROM A RANGER THEN A KITTEN WARRIOR KITTEN GUARDIAN OR KITTENKITTEN ELE.
True fact.
The biggest issue to any ranger ever partaking in GvG is the “min-max” fanboys, yes, fanboys. Because most min-max elitists ive met in WvW, regardless of NA or EU. All “think” they know what a ranger can or more importantly cannot do. And in most cases it has taken me less then 20 seconds to prove them wrong. Yes ranger cannot grant AOE aegis, AOE stability or AOE stealth. No it does not have portals. NO it does not have timewarp. No it does not have loads of burst AOE heals.
The same min-max fanboys also think that by using common 80 man zerg logic applied to any pet (regardless what type it is) pet must obviously die instantly. Because it is outright not feasible to press 2 buttons and make pet move or god forbid, swap pet before it dies (like you know, using your class mechanic right).Then there is the lesser known facts about rangers, that have repeatedly been posted on this forum, the ranger forums and in the more recently created balance forum. These are known functions, several of which far surpass anything any other class can hope to produce. However these positive qualities MUST be negative because they a qualities tied to a RANGER. Sad fact, but undeniable.
Ranger Regen, albeit almost four times that of a warrior in addition to ranger regen being AOE is inferior to warrior regen in all circumstances according to most min-max fanboys you find in WvW. What does that tell you about the attitude towards rangers in the min-max GvG scene?Ive met guilds who demand that ranger players must be mechanically and technically better then ANY other guild player if they want to bring a ranger. What does that tell you about attitudes towards the class? If your class happens to be a ranger, you must according to popular GvG guilds either be a gaming god, or a gaming jesus. Anything short of that is not sufficient to play a class that requires average human reflexes and perhaps surprisingly enough, a brain, to play.
/endrant
How many GvGs have you fought in?
and most of the complaints from the CDI regarding “ranger suck” was un-documented, biased and subjective opinions based upon highly subjective ideas of “this class should be like i say”.
Ranger is a Ranger. And no matter how much you love that bow, melee is and always WILL be stronger. Why? because you get better defenses, just as strong or stronger offense and most crucial to all – better mobility both in and out of combat.
If you want to play the class wrong, if you want to outright neglect your class mechanic, if you want to PLAY a sub-par spec. Be my guest, but dun come here claiming the class suck because you plan to use it for something it is not godmode at.
Thing is that most gvg battles are within the “max group size” in which one ranger is effective. Beyond 15-20 people, one ranger is not going to be a noticably good teamplayer at all, that is a fact.
Say’s who? I know of exactly ZERO rangers used in 15v15 GvG’s by any of the top GvG guilds either EU or NA….
Ahem, let me explain why you see zero rangers in any GvG.
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENPEOPLEKITTENHATE RANGERS. DEMAND WAY MORE FROM A RANGER THEN A KITTEN WARRIOR KITTEN GUARDIAN OR KITTENKITTEN ELE.
True fact.
The biggest issue to any ranger ever partaking in GvG is the “min-max” fanboys, yes, fanboys. Because most min-max elitists ive met in WvW, regardless of NA or EU. All “think” they know what a ranger can or more importantly cannot do. And in most cases it has taken me less then 20 seconds to prove them wrong. Yes ranger cannot grant AOE aegis, AOE stability or AOE stealth. No it does not have portals. NO it does not have timewarp. No it does not have loads of burst AOE heals.
The same min-max fanboys also think that by using common 80 man zerg logic applied to any pet (regardless what type it is) pet must obviously die instantly. Because it is outright not feasible to press 2 buttons and make pet move or god forbid, swap pet before it dies (like you know, using your class mechanic right).Then there is the lesser known facts about rangers, that have repeatedly been posted on this forum, the ranger forums and in the more recently created balance forum. These are known functions, several of which far surpass anything any other class can hope to produce. However these positive qualities MUST be negative because they a qualities tied to a RANGER. Sad fact, but undeniable.
Ranger Regen, albeit almost four times that of a warrior in addition to ranger regen being AOE is inferior to warrior regen in all circumstances according to most min-max fanboys you find in WvW. What does that tell you about the attitude towards rangers in the min-max GvG scene?Ive met guilds who demand that ranger players must be mechanically and technically better then ANY other guild player if they want to bring a ranger. What does that tell you about attitudes towards the class? If your class happens to be a ranger, you must according to popular GvG guilds either be a gaming god, or a gaming jesus. Anything short of that is not sufficient to play a class that requires average human reflexes and perhaps surprisingly enough, a brain, to play.
/endrant
How many GvGs have you fought in?
None.
Why? Because i do not like the attitudes of GvG guilds towards either classes or “players not in their guild”. Be it pugs or other guilds. GvG guilds has brought nothing but toxicity into the WvW community. I do not endorse such behavior and as thus, i do not partake in it.
Yet, for some reason, i still have access to a chatbox while in game, and apparently so does GvG guild players. Amazing, who would have thought i had the right to use a chatbox without being in a elitist guild. Oh, i also have the insane priviledge of being able to watch videos on youtube, but as a hardcore pug, i should prolly have that right rewoked so i do not realize i may be doing something better then someone else.
Thing is that most gvg battles are within the “max group size” in which one ranger is effective. Beyond 15-20 people, one ranger is not going to be a noticably good teamplayer at all, that is a fact.
Say’s who? I know of exactly ZERO rangers used in 15v15 GvG’s by any of the top GvG guilds either EU or NA….
Ahem, let me explain why you see zero rangers in any GvG.
KITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENKITTENPEOPLEKITTENHATE RANGERS. DEMAND WAY MORE FROM A RANGER THEN A KITTEN WARRIOR KITTEN GUARDIAN OR KITTENKITTEN ELE.
True fact.
The biggest issue to any ranger ever partaking in GvG is the “min-max” fanboys, yes, fanboys. Because most min-max elitists ive met in WvW, regardless of NA or EU. All “think” they know what a ranger can or more importantly cannot do. And in most cases it has taken me less then 20 seconds to prove them wrong. Yes ranger cannot grant AOE aegis, AOE stability or AOE stealth. No it does not have portals. NO it does not have timewarp. No it does not have loads of burst AOE heals.
The same min-max fanboys also think that by using common 80 man zerg logic applied to any pet (regardless what type it is) pet must obviously die instantly. Because it is outright not feasible to press 2 buttons and make pet move or god forbid, swap pet before it dies (like you know, using your class mechanic right).Then there is the lesser known facts about rangers, that have repeatedly been posted on this forum, the ranger forums and in the more recently created balance forum. These are known functions, several of which far surpass anything any other class can hope to produce. However these positive qualities MUST be negative because they a qualities tied to a RANGER. Sad fact, but undeniable.
Ranger Regen, albeit almost four times that of a warrior in addition to ranger regen being AOE is inferior to warrior regen in all circumstances according to most min-max fanboys you find in WvW. What does that tell you about the attitude towards rangers in the min-max GvG scene?Ive met guilds who demand that ranger players must be mechanically and technically better then ANY other guild player if they want to bring a ranger. What does that tell you about attitudes towards the class? If your class happens to be a ranger, you must according to popular GvG guilds either be a gaming god, or a gaming jesus. Anything short of that is not sufficient to play a class that requires average human reflexes and perhaps surprisingly enough, a brain, to play.
/endrant
How many GvGs have you fought in?
None.
Why? Because i do not like the attitudes of GvG guilds towards either classes or “players not in their guild”. Be it pugs or other guilds. GvG guilds has brought nothing but toxicity into the WvW community. I do not endorse such behavior and as thus, i do not partake in it.
Yet, for some reason, i still have access to a chatbox while in game, and apparently so does GvG guild players. Amazing, who would have thought i had the right to use a chatbox without being in a elitist guild. Oh, i also have the insane priviledge of being able to watch videos on youtube, but as a hardcore pug, i should prolly have that right rewoked so i do not realize i may be doing something better then someone else.
LoL “hardcore pug”? but not elitest? So are you more “elite” than a regular pug? Sorry… it’s fine if you don’t want to try to be the best at GvG or open field, but don’t blame these “elitest min-maxer’s” because they are trying to find the best composition and be the best they can be at the game….just because you want to live in a fantasy world where ranger’s are some elite GvG profession that nobody plays because for some reason your god’s gift to GW2 on the ranger class and clearly you have seen what other top players have so blatantly missed….
Guess what…you’re not special…and you didn’t mysteriously find something out about ranger’s in GvG’s that no one else has….even if you were 1 in a million in the world there would still be 7,000 people just like you….so no….they still suck in GvG’s….simply get over it lol.
@Prysin : talking about something you have never been part of seems a little… misplaced don’t you think ?
Why do you talk about actual decision making regarding the fitness of the group while you only raid PU, having knowledge from very poor sources of learning like videos and streams ?
Why do you talk about the viability of a class, that I am sure you played often, when you clearly don’t understand what other classes can do?
Why do you talk in a topic related to GvG when you have no personal experience ?
Why do you talk about something YOU DON’T KNOW OF.
Don’t reply, move along.
@Prysin : talking about something you have never been part of seems a little… misplaced don’t you think ?
Why do you talk about actual decision making regarding the fitness of the group while you only raid PU, having knowledge from hundreds of hours of havoc squads and guild raids ?
Why do you talk about the viability of a class, that I am sure you played often, when you clearly understand what other classes can do?
Why do you talk in a topic related to GvG when you have never been in the team ?Why do you talk about something I ASSUME YOU DON’T KNOW OF.
I will reply with the following; consult Warriorjrd and you will have your answer to my GvG and group comp knowledge. It’s not like i never was in a guild, i just prefer not to be in one anymore.
Oh, and when you get your answer, do not bother to reply, ill be long gone by then.
One more thing, i took the liberty to correct a few missing facts in your post.
I think the question still stands… do ANY of the top ranked GvG guilds run with a Ranger in either orgranized or open field play? If so, what is the spec?
I would like to actually hear from someone who CURRENTLY plays in a top rated GvG guild to answer these questions. My guess is we are about to here a lot of crickets because IMO the Ranger class is as effective as a fart in a stiff breeze.
No one is demanding more of a ranger than a guard, war or ele. People demand exactly as much from ranger as guard, war or ele. You say meleemeleemeleemelee but in melee a ranger is just like a war or guard but with less damage and weak support.
Look at these numbers:
Ranger gs auto: 0.709 coefficient per second.
Guardian gs auto: 1.12 coefficient per second.
Guardian ham auto: 1.135 coefficient per second.
Warrior ham auto: 1.091 coefficient per second.
The only one of those that doesn’t have a skill #2 that does more damage than maul is the warrior hammer, which does 1.4 + weakness compared to ranger with 1.5 + vulnerability. What does a melee train get in return for swapping in these wet noodles? (Hint: not much)
I think the question still stands… do ANY of the top ranked GvG guilds run with a Ranger in either orgranized or open field play? If so, what is the spec?
I would like to actually hear from someone who CURRENTLY plays in a top rated GvG guild to answer these questions. My guess is we are about to here a lot of crickets because IMO the Ranger class is as effective as a fart in a stiff breeze.
Many players from “Top Rated GvG guilds” have already expressed their ideas before. I won’t repeat myself, and others will not either.
No one is demanding more of a ranger than a guard, war or ele. People demand exactly as much from ranger as guard, war or ele. You say meleemeleemeleemelee but in melee a ranger is just like a war or guard but with less damage and weak support.
Look at these numbers:
Ranger gs auto: 0.709 coefficient per second.
Guardian gs auto: 1.12 coefficient per second.
Guardian ham auto: 1.135 coefficient per second.
Warrior ham auto: 1.091 coefficient per second.The only one of those that doesn’t have a skill #2 that does more damage than maul is the warrior hammer, which does 1.4 + weakness compared to ranger with 1.5 + vulnerability. What does a melee train get in return for swapping in these wet noodles? (Hint: not much)
Not another one, please.
The patch will make it better as open field periph due to more might uptime and more entangles. Will that be good enough to make a difference? I hope so, but I’m not holding my breath on it :/
As soon as a ranger uses Entangle I chuckle… it is quite possibly the worst elite in the game because it gets rangers to pick it over Rampage as One. The only thing Entangle does is immobilize crappy players and wastes a good elite against quality opponents. Entangle is useful when fighting scrubs… and a good ranger doesn’t need it then.
There is MAYBE a debate with a condi-bunker ranger but even then I will take a long stability, swiftness, fury and might over an immobilize/bleed on a long timer. Rangers also have few stability skills making RaO even more valuable in a group setting.
It can be used to be part of a coordinated bomb. And if you have guardians you shouldn’t need 20 seconds of stability, but I do see your logic.
@ hihey
Thanks for the feedback. Good to hear from someone actually in a “Top Tier” guild.
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