Guild Wars 2

JaironKalach.4938:

A good commander will keep in mind the morale of his zerg as much as the next strategic step.
A good commander plans many steps ahead and then adjusts on a dime.
A good commander recognizes when what they are doing isn’t working and changes to make sure that things are successful.
A good commander recognizes that at least 40% of the people following their tag are only capable of following their tag and so leads by example.
A good commander can read the ebb and flow of a battle and adjust accordingly.
A good commander has thick skin. (There are always monday morning quarterbacks)
A good commander is decisive and doesn’t get lost in though (zergs are glued together through momentum)
A good commander has a lot of patience. (There will be very poor players following your icon at times. Accept this and save yourself the need for blood pressure meds.)
A good commander is able to take in information from a load of sources (voice com, team chat, whisper) and process it quickly.
A good commander understand that they can’t help everyone screaming in map chat for help and makes strategic decisions (based on morale, viable targets, etc) without apology.
A good commander doesn’t get pulled into drama and tries to maintain good relations with the other commanders on the server, so that they can work together effectively.

Probably others, too.

I approve this.

Communicate, evaluate and adapt.
Falling back from a bigger/more organized force doesn’t make you a bad Commander… As long as you have another plan to wipe them with!
Mesmer’s are currently a Commanders best friend, Veil, Portal and Time Warp can be key to winning a large battle.
Supplies are the life blood of WvW, keep those camps upgraded and your Yak’s alive.

One more thing.. if leading a random zerg anytime, expect at least half of them to not listen to a word you say, keep your calm and try look like you know what your doing! Good luck

a good commander says one word, and everyone hands him all their siege blueprints….

A good commander knows where to place siege. A better commander rarely uses siege, especially defensive siege. The best defense is to wipe the attackers.

A good commander doesn’t type. A better commander uses voice chat and the followers use it also. They also don’t yell and scream at the group in voice chat.

A good commander knows the makeup of their group. A better commander knows what tactics (combos) that group can do. They also recognize the tactics of the opposition and know how to counter.

You can tell the better commanders in voice chat. Orders are clearly given, followed by the group without much non-combat static. A good commander will use commands like “push right”, “back up the stairs”, “stack here” instead of “keep up”, “get to my position”, “follow me”

Swamurabi.7890:

A good commander knows where to place siege. A better commander rarely uses siege, especially defensive siege. The best defense is to wipe the attackers.

A good commander doesn’t type. A better commander uses voice chat and the followers use it also. They also don’t yell and scream at the group in voice chat.

A good commander knows the makeup of their group. A better commander knows what tactics (combos) that group can do. They also recognize the tactics of the opposition and know how to counter.

You can tell the better commanders in voice chat. Orders are clearly given, followed by the group without much non-combat static. A good commander will use commands like “push right”, “back up the stairs”, “stack here” instead of “keep up”, “get to my position”, “follow me”

A lot of this advice seems better suited to leading a guild zerg, rather than a PUG. For example, I don’t expect a PUG to be with me in voice chat, and commands, when possible, are best supplemented with using map chat.

Also, a good lineup of arrow carts and ballista can also hold off significantly larger zergs if you have a choke point you need to hold while your zerg goes elsewhere.

I’ll go ahead and disagree with most folks here.

In any guild of 50 there are 45 people who know how to handle and read a map, where to put siege, and what objective needs to be hit. Concentrating on that isn’t really important.

A good commander organizes the team and micromanages those who follow him/her and wins the fights on the field through proper leadership and inspiration of teamwork. Proper direction within individual battles and making the right call and ensuring everyone is educated on those calls is the hard thing to find in a commander.

Finding people who know when to hit the watergate and when to hit the north supply camp instead is easy.

in summation: micromanagement skills are usually what i see lacking, not macromanagement.

To be a good commander just follow the orders of Supreme Commander ARM.

Aoreias.6384:

A lot of this advice seems better suited to leading a guild zerg, rather than a PUG. For example, I don’t expect a PUG to be with me in voice chat, and commands, when possible, are best supplemented with using map chat.

In our tier, a zerg that can’t follow its commander’s directions in a fight quickly finds that it is a dead zerg.

Fivekiller is right, that sort of experience is the rarest because it is the kind that is only gained by acting as a commander. Work at everything else, and if you find that you can lead others and enjoy it, then start thinking about an icon. Helps a lot to have a guild group to practise those skills.

What I find important in a Commander is tanky build. Whenever we portalbomb a zerg or make a last stand in a keep the Commander should be the last to be down. It’s just ridiculous when the Commander is one of the first to die. Plus it really helps the morale to see your Commander charging a group of 10 alone and making it out alive
Good to impress the noobs.

I could sum it up simply.

To be a good Commander you must first learn how to be a good follower.

Why? Then you will know to recognize mistakes made by those leading, learn how to counter/avoid those mistakes and most imprtantly SHARE things with the “enlisted” members of your army. As well as learn how to take advice/criticism. In fact as for the latter on advice and criticism, if you do not learn how to take it you will never make a good Commander, no matter how much gold you have ot how large your guild is.

I’m not going to bother reading all these replies, but here are a couple things I think commanders need to keep in mind.

1) They are leaders. Leaders inspire. It is not inspiring for a leader to say “I did/said X but nobody listened.”
2) Commanders have at least a rudimentary understanding of chess strategy and tactics. Too many commanders will attack a well-defended tower for hours on end hoping to take it by brute force, when there are other weaknesses on the map.
3) They use diversion and deception for every encounter to give them the local stronger force no matter what the global numbers.

Very important points (and great reads!) in this thread. I’d like to add one more from my perspective:

• A good commander is not ashamed to ask for upgrade donations or siege blueprints when the situation warrants it.

Not everyone is internet rich (or running around with lots of gold on each player) and repeatedly upgrading towers and keeps (especially keeps, omg the waypoint costs!!!) can really put a strain on a player’s purse if he is from a smaller guild or even not in a guild at all.

And I’d rather donate some silver and a handfull of blueprints than see a tower/keep going unupgraded (since often there isn’t time to waypoint back to the spawn, grab money/blueprints from the vault and then walk back to the recently capped objective) or a critical attack depending on how random players place siege (and yes, I’ve seen ACs placed right at the gate and rams too far away).

Of course this trust shouldn’t be abused (we’re talking about good commanders, right? ^^).

Aoreias.6384:

Swamurabi.7890:

A good commander knows where to place siege. A better commander rarely uses siege, especially defensive siege. The best defense is to wipe the attackers.

A good commander doesn’t type. A better commander uses voice chat and the followers use it also. They also don’t yell and scream at the group in voice chat.

A good commander knows the makeup of their group. A better commander knows what tactics (combos) that group can do. They also recognize the tactics of the opposition and know how to counter.

You can tell the better commanders in voice chat. Orders are clearly given, followed by the group without much non-combat static. A good commander will use commands like “push right”, “back up the stairs”, “stack here” instead of “keep up”, “get to my position”, “follow me”

A lot of this advice seems better suited to leading a guild zerg, rather than a PUG. For example, I don’t expect a PUG to be with me in voice chat, and commands, when possible, are best supplemented with using map chat.

Also, a good lineup of arrow carts and ballista can also hold off significantly larger zergs if you have a choke point you need to hold while your zerg goes elsewhere.

I’ve been in voice chat with a PUG commander and got wiped several times because they thought that rushing in was better than “preparing the battlefield”.

As has been said before, a voice chat zerg beats a PUG zerg most times. PUG zergs are loot bags to organized voice chat zergs.

As for siege, I’ve seen plenty of times where an organized voice chat guild zerg used hit and run AoE to clear siege from a wall, then knock down a wall or gate, then either use veil or portal or both to take out the rest of the siege. Staying inside the walls is no protection against an organized voice chat guild zerg run by a good commander. The only thing that defensive siege does is slow down the attack so you can get reinforcements.

Baelnorn.5710:

Very important points (and great reads!) in this thread. I’d like to add one more from my perspective:

• A good commander is not ashamed to ask for upgrade donations or siege blueprints when the situation warrants it.

Not everyone is internet rich (or running around with lots of gold on each player) and repeatedly upgrading towers and keeps (especially keeps, omg the waypoint costs!!!) can really put a strain on a player’s purse if he is from a smaller guild or even not in a guild at all.

And I’d rather donate some silver and a handfull of blueprints than see a tower/keep going unupgraded (since often there isn’t time to waypoint back to the spawn, grab money/blueprints from the vault and then walk back to the recently capped objective) or a critical attack depending on how random players place siege (and yes, I’ve seen ACs placed right at the gate and rams too far away).

Of course this trust shouldn’t be abused (we’re talking about good commanders, right? ^^).

I think if you’re going to command you really owe it to the people following you to ~at least~ bring the siege.

You can buy it with badges you know.

Sure, but at some point if you’re commanding you’ll probably run out of something. Or coin for upgrades.

kerona.3465:

Sure, but at some point if you’re commanding you’ll probably run out of something. Or coin for upgrades.

Not sure that I mind if the commander is asking for something…. But they better do it before they are standing at the keep door. It goes back to not picking a fight that you don’t have a reasonable chance of winning. If the objective you are after needs siege, you shouldn’t even bother to start towards that objective without knowing that you have what you’ll need to take it. It’s really, really bad when someone leads a team to an objective, and they don’t have the necessary siege. Usually half the team wipes and the team starts to break up.

JaironKalach.4938:

kerona.3465:

Sure, but at some point if you’re commanding you’ll probably run out of something. Or coin for upgrades.

Not sure that I mind if the commander is asking for something…. But they better do it before they are standing at the keep door. It goes back to not picking a fight that you don’t have a reasonable chance of winning. If the objective you are after needs siege, you shouldn’t even bother to start towards that objective without knowing that you have what you’ll need to take it. It’s really, really bad when someone leads a team to an objective, and they don’t have the necessary siege. Usually half the team wipes and the team starts to break up.

“lol who has rams?”

Swamurabi.7890:

A good commander knows where to place siege. A better commander rarely uses siege, especially defensive siege. The best defense is to wipe the attackers.

A good commander doesn’t type. A better commander uses voice chat and the followers use it also. They also don’t yell and scream at the group in voice chat.

A good commander knows the makeup of their group. A better commander knows what tactics (combos) that group can do. They also recognize the tactics of the opposition and know how to counter.

You can tell the better commanders in voice chat. Orders are clearly given, followed by the group without much non-combat static. A good commander will use commands like “push right”, “back up the stairs”, “stack here” instead of “keep up”, “get to my position”, “follow me”

I really have to disagree with this. I’m a devoted WvW soldier (not a commander) and I never use voice chat for various technical reason. Many players I know are the same. By not having the simple consideration as a commander to type commands in /map and /team you are losing players like me and your zerg will dwindle significantly. I don’t roll with commanders who won’t talk to their grunts. Now you may take the elitist tact and say, “Pug players! Who needs ’em! Good riddance!” But the end result will be that many PUG players will still cluster to your tag, but now they’ll be uniformed of your strategies and tactics so more likely to mess up your plans, get spotted, or draw your zerg into unnecessary fights. It’s really not a sacrifice for a commander to type a few simple words to us non-voice chat grunts to let us know their plans and targets. And frankly, it’s infuriating when a commander refuses to do so. Even just “Umber” – “Fall back” – “Get spelden first” “Ball up on me” “Build Cata here” are extremely helpful commands and fairly easy to type last time I checked.

A good Commander will always be prepared. I usually drop at least 3g+ (closer to about 5/7g probably) a night in siege, and upgrades. That’s because I usually play for several hours at a time when I’m Commanding, so it’s easier for my gold to diminish. Best advice I can give you, just like everyone else, try and either join a WvW Guild and watch those Commanders, then try and strut your stuff, or, find a group of 5 friends, get on a voice chat (Mumble, TS3, etc.) and try and take objectives. Depending on your server, you can take anything with a 5 man team.

Commanding isn’t easy.

Entropy.4732:

I really have to disagree with this. I’m a devoted WvW soldier (not a commander) and I never use voice chat for various technical reason. Many players I know are the same. By not having the simple consideration as a commander to type commands in /map and /team you are losing players like me and your zerg will dwindle significantly. I don’t roll with commanders who won’t talk to their grunts. Now you may take the elitist tact and say, “Pug players! Who needs ’em! Good riddance!” But the end result will be that many PUG players will still cluster to your tag, but now they’ll be uniformed of your strategies and tactics so more likely to mess up your plans, get spotted, or draw your zerg into unnecessary fights. It’s really not a sacrifice for a commander to type a few simple words to us non-voice chat grunts to let us know their plans and targets. And frankly, it’s infuriating when a commander refuses to do so. Even just “Umber” – “Fall back” – “Get spelden first” “Ball up on me” “Build Cata here” are extremely helpful commands and fairly easy to type last time I checked.

Given that commanders are often overwhelmed, it is typically just as good if there is a trusted “lieutenant,” who is on voice chat and can type the commands out. Often there are people who will habitually do this.

A good commander knows all the latest grub tactics

Know who you will be commanding along side – generally there will be a PuG commander and several guild commanders. Get to know who runs what and communicate with the various guilds to do different objectives

JaironKalach.4938:

Entropy.4732:

I really have to disagree with this. I’m a devoted WvW soldier (not a commander) and I never use voice chat for various technical reason. Many players I know are the same. By not having the simple consideration as a commander to type commands in /map and /team you are losing players like me and your zerg will dwindle significantly. I don’t roll with commanders who won’t talk to their grunts. Now you may take the elitist tact and say, “Pug players! Who needs ’em! Good riddance!” But the end result will be that many PUG players will still cluster to your tag, but now they’ll be uniformed of your strategies and tactics so more likely to mess up your plans, get spotted, or draw your zerg into unnecessary fights. It’s really not a sacrifice for a commander to type a few simple words to us non-voice chat grunts to let us know their plans and targets. And frankly, it’s infuriating when a commander refuses to do so. Even just “Umber” – “Fall back” – “Get spelden first” “Ball up on me” “Build Cata here” are extremely helpful commands and fairly easy to type last time I checked.

Given that commanders are often overwhelmed, it is typically just as good if there is a trusted “lieutenant,” who is on voice chat and can type the commands out. Often there are people who will habitually do this.

I’m completely fine with that. As long as someone in the know is there to disseminate accurate intel to the grunts, that works.

JaironKalach.4938:

Yes… Divided attention also causes this problem. I’ve seen commanders struggle to make the decision to give up the keep that they are coming to late, in order to save the keep that they can make it to in time. I’m sure partially that’s due to not having enough experience to time things, or know what can/can’t be saved.

question about this… a couple nights ago i was in WvW in my home BL, and there was no commander present. both of the other teams started pushing hard, one from the east, one from the west, with unfortunate (for us) unified timing…starting at the southern towers, up to the keeps, the northern towers, then they hit garrison in unison, one server on the east gate, one on the west. the few people in the map were calling out in /map where things were being hit, but no one knew what to do or was calling the shots. i tried to scramble a bit of defense, but it was too little too late, and i’m not a commander, so few people came running for me…

if there had been a good commander on the map, what could/should they have done?

(note, a good commander did log in and take over organizing a defense at garrison before it fell, and we had one heck of a good fight, but ultimately lost it to superior numbers.)

Entropy.4732:

Swamurabi.7890:

A good commander knows where to place siege. A better commander rarely uses siege, especially defensive siege. The best defense is to wipe the attackers.

A good commander doesn’t type. A better commander uses voice chat and the followers use it also. They also don’t yell and scream at the group in voice chat.

A good commander knows the makeup of their group. A better commander knows what tactics (combos) that group can do. They also recognize the tactics of the opposition and know how to counter.

You can tell the better commanders in voice chat. Orders are clearly given, followed by the group without much non-combat static. A good commander will use commands like “push right”, “back up the stairs”, “stack here” instead of “keep up”, “get to my position”, “follow me”

I really have to disagree with this. I’m a devoted WvW soldier (not a commander) and I never use voice chat for various technical reason. Many players I know are the same. By not having the simple consideration as a commander to type commands in /map and /team you are losing players like me and your zerg will dwindle significantly. I don’t roll with commanders who won’t talk to their grunts. Now you may take the elitist tact and say, “Pug players! Who needs ’em! Good riddance!” But the end result will be that many PUG players will still cluster to your tag, but now they’ll be uniformed of your strategies and tactics so more likely to mess up your plans, get spotted, or draw your zerg into unnecessary fights. It’s really not a sacrifice for a commander to type a few simple words to us non-voice chat grunts to let us know their plans and targets. And frankly, it’s infuriating when a commander refuses to do so. Even just “Umber” – “Fall back” – “Get spelden first” “Ball up on me” “Build Cata here” are extremely helpful commands and fairly easy to type last time I checked.

It’s night and day difference between following the blue dorito while reading text and getting on voice chat with a commander. You don’t have to be in the same guild as the commander if it’s a server wide voice chat. In fact one time the commander we were following logged out and we continued on with another giving voice commands.

Voice chat commanders I follow call out for fire, lightning and water fields as well as veils, portals, marks, walls and movement commands all in the middle of battle where there’s no time to type and also no margin for error.
Putting the wrong field down at the wrong place/time is a sure way to get the entire zerg wiped.

katz.8376:

JaironKalach.4938:

Yes… Divided attention also causes this problem. I’ve seen commanders struggle to make the decision to give up the keep that they are coming to late, in order to save the keep that they can make it to in time. I’m sure partially that’s due to not having enough experience to time things, or know what can/can’t be saved.

question about this… a couple nights ago i was in WvW in my home BL, and there was no commander present. both of the other teams started pushing hard, one from the east, one from the west, with unfortunate (for us) unified timing…starting at the southern towers, up to the keeps, the northern towers, then they hit garrison in unison, one server on the east gate, one on the west. the few people in the map were calling out in /map where things were being hit, but no one knew what to do or was calling the shots. i tried to scramble a bit of defense, but it was too little too late, and i’m not a commander, so few people came running for me…

if there had been a good commander on the map, what could/should they have done?

(note, a good commander did log in and take over organizing a defense at garrison before it fell, and we had one heck of a good fight, but ultimately lost it to superior numbers.)

I have to note clearly at this point that I am not a commander and though I aspire to perhaps one day be one, my strategic sense isn’t strong. So, all of my comments have been directed by things I’ve been part of as a team member, and found less than enjoyable. So… let me start with the scenario I experienced, to make it clearer what you want to avoid. Then we’ll move on to the exact scenario you describe and I can tell you the data I would use to make the decision.

Okay… The specific scenario that I’ve been in a couple of times and found painful… I log onto a borderland where we have all three keeps. In team chat when I log in is "They’re on inner in EK! "
So the commander puts into team chat “Everyone to EK!”
And then we start straggling into EK… A lot of dots streaming across the map. At that point, we hear “They’re at outer on WK.”
The commander, however stays with, “Everyone to EK. We’re losing. We need more people!!!!”
So a little bit later, EK is lost. At this point the scouts in WK are shouting, “They’re on WK inner!” So, again we all stream towards WK and show up out of order and late and lose WK.

So the net result of the experience is that we lost both keeps and managed to severely demoralize our forces. This happened because 1) the commander was in too big of a hurry to stage their army. (A zerg that trickles in is no help at all) 2) when the commander came to a decision point, they were tunnel focused on “we have to defend.”

I have to at this point disagree with a poster somewhere above this one. They seemed to basically say that if a commander does not defend everything that is attacked, they are a coward out to preserve their reputation and are not a good commander. That person is not alone. I see plenty of folks with the same opinion in team chat jeering commanders every week. But I think they are wrong. I think it is the responsibility of the commander to give their zerg a fighting chance. Reading through that Sun Tzu document has actually been enlightening on this, for me. It is the commanders responsibility to time and pick the fight that they have the best chance of winning. In the scenario I describe above, I believe the commander should have immediately broken off of EK and let it fall. They should then have consolidate all of their resources in WK, most likely for a high-siege inner gate defence. I say this because the EK battle was basically lost before they started in on it.

Okay… Now your specific situation is slightly different. You have two armies that are basically synchronized as they are moving up the sides of your home BL. Presumably at the same time scouts will say “they’re attacking WK” and “they’re attacking EK.” Based on the end result you described, I would guess that this is at a time when you are normally outnumbered and fighting battles to hold the enemy off as long as possible. So… I’ve been told that EK is easier to keep than WK, and that WK is easier to retake. In the end, based on the time of day, though, we know that Garrison is where the battle is going to end up being. So, if there are enough numbers and seasoned WvWvW players on, I would ask them to make sure that garrison is fortified and I would try to put up a stalling action in EK, with the remainder of my zerg. WK I would consider lost. Once WK is lost, though, I would go ahead and let go of EK, so that the team could concentrate on the garrison defence. If there weren’t seasoned WvWvW players I could count on to make sure that garrison is defensible, then I would abandon both outer keeps to keep my forces concentrated on the garrison push.

Again, keep in mind that there are almost always a set of players who will try to defend everything at all costs, and they will be screaming and cursing you at this point, telling you what a terrible commander you are. Be prepared to accept it and move on. I also highly encourage reporting anyone who crosses the line. Just because you have a tag doesn’t mean that people have a right to move from complaint into abuse.

mm. sounds solid to me. things happened rather quickly... or at least they sure seemed to. XD

i saw a report that one of the southern keeps was being hit, and since no one else was saying anything, i was like "come on guys let’s go defend it." and started off across the map. before i got halfway there, someone else called out that hills keep was under attack. i *think* that one may have been partially upgraded, and my mind said upgraded keep > basic tower and i called out change of plans defend keep. by the time i got finished saying that someone ELSE called that the bay keep was also under attack. they both fell before i could get to either (like i said, this all happened pretty fast).

i was a little overwhelmed at that point, so i stopped "helping" in /map :-/

somewhere in the mess i died.. i think trying to get into one of the northern towers to defend it, and when i WPed there was a bunch of people standing around doing nothing. >.<

then a commander logged in and took over defending garrison which they were just starting to hit at that point.

as fast as they were moving, i think perhaps going to garrison to fortify and prepare to defend may have been a better move.

thank you for the insight

A good commander is the one that people can trust so much that they would even follow him when he jumps off a cliff into his death.

katz.8376:

mm. sounds solid to me. things happened rather quickly… or at least they sure seemed to. XD

i saw a report that one of the southern keeps was being hit, and since no one else was saying anything, i was like “come on guys let’s go defend it.” and started off across the map. before i got halfway there, someone else called out that hills keep was under attack. i think that one may have been partially upgraded, and my mind said upgraded keep > basic tower and i called out change of plans defend keep. by the time i got finished saying that someone ELSE called that the bay keep was also under attack. they both fell before i could get to either (like i said, this all happened pretty fast).

i was a little overwhelmed at that point, so i stopped “helping” in /map :-/

somewhere in the mess i died.. i think trying to get into one of the northern towers to defend it, and when i WPed there was a bunch of people standing around doing nothing. >.<

then a commander logged in and took over defending garrison which they were just starting to hit at that point.

as fast as they were moving, i think perhaps going to garrison to fortify and prepare to defend may have been a better move.

thank you for the insight

This is one of the reasons that I know I’m nowhere near ready to command. Honestly, it all happens very fast. And you have to walk a pretty thin line. Despite everything I said above, you also don’t want to give your team whiplash because you change directions too quickly. It is not fun to run around in the open field in circles, while all of your keeps/towers are being steam rolled. So at some point you do have to stick to the decision you’ve made…. The other option in a situation like this is to make the decision to not keep either but to cut them off at one side or the other. Good intel is your best ally, here. If you have a 15 man group, and intel is reporting that the enemy is in a 25 man zerg, you have little hope if you’re coming in late to the battle. At that point your best bet is to go to the next likely target and get it ready with siege, so you have a chance against superior numbers.

On a side tangent, this is why on Mags we tend to get grumpy about vague intel reports. We prefer scouting reports to be done in the form of “25 db at WK outer south gate” “gate at 90%.” “Trouble at WK” doesn’t give near enough intel to make a strategic decision on.

Its not really a good idea to go deep into specifics, especially in scenarios where theres a tonne of things going on, multiple attacks on your stuff necessitating you to trade. Thats a very complicated situation that requires alot of knowledge of what has happened.

When you are starting out, you should always start small. Go into a dead borderland with outmanned buff. Rope up the 2 or 3 players that are getting spawn camped or whatever and add them to your party. Get them to call target on you, so a red reticle appears above your head. Talk to them in voice comm if its shared but you or someone else has to type what you are doing and where you are going next in map chat or alot of people will not know you are even there.

When you start like that things are very uncomplicated because theres not much you can do. You can reset some supply camps or kill dolyaks to prevent the other teams from upgrading quickly. You can fake contest keeps and towers and observe, watching how the enemy reacts and in what kind of force. You can deny them the use of their waypoints against another server by shutting them down, which can make their fights harder and more protracted as they are more likely to get out of position.

But on the whole the best thing about starting small is that you have nothing to lose. So you screw up? You haven’t lost anything. People see you start something and communicate well and being courteous and they start following you.

Pretty soon your 3 man turns into a 5 man. Then theres 10 dudes following you and things get more complicated because you have enough supply on the move to ninja a tower.

So if you capture a tower? What do you do? You try to hold it and upgrade it. If you lose it, its no big deal because you only lost a tower. Identify what you think you did wrong, talk to your teammates about it. Be honest about it. If you screw up, people will understand if you talk to them and are polite, if you express an interest in doing things well. Then next time, try something different. This is an iterative process.

You identify the things you do well and you keep doing them. You identify the things you did badly and you stop doing them. As the number of allies with you and the number of enemies you face grows, things get much more complicated and you will be forced to choose between bad and worse and you risk losing the work of alot of people. But you will jump those hurdles as you come to them. Just keep iterating. What did we do wrong? What can we do right in future?

Respect your opponents, always. If you achieve some level of success, don’t believe your own hype. If you keep your eyes and ears open, you will learn something from literally anyone. Even newbies making a hash of things (they will teach you how not to do things, as long as you can identify what they are doing wrong).

A positive attitude towards failure is important. You never really fail when you think about it. You never lose anything permanently. You just learn another way that doesn’t work. If you think like this, you are communicative and polite to other people and you show up regularly, people will respect you for your honesty and your willingness to step up when nobody else will, if nothing else.

Try not to get angry ever. Everyone in high pressure situations can lose the rag, but its important that you recognize when you do and apologize for it. If you have the right attitude at the outset, many things just logically fall into place with time and practice.

Lastly, don’t reinvent the wheel. Identify a commander you think is doing things right and copy them. It might seem silly at first but if they are doing things right, why change whats already working? Over time you begin to realize that even the people you look up to make mistakes (we all do). With the right attitude, you are in a better position to see them and fix them.

Last thing I really want to add. In all honesty, it’s pretty much an instinctive thing to be a good Commander. I was raised in a military family, so I’ve learned a lot, and I have a huge passion for it. You have to want it. You can’t question yourself. You have to MAKE people trust you. Give it a shot, if you can’t rally people, then you shouldn’t be a Commander.

Besetment.9187:

<lots of good stuff>

Since Rebel posted, it brought something to mind. There are a number of commanders that I really enjoy following. Rebel is one of them. Sinful Panda, Xushin, Tsarazi are all also on my list of people I will automatically follow.

Thing is, none of these commanders command the same way. I mean they are all very different, in how they choose objectives and in their open field fighting tactics. That said, they are all very successful and they do all seem to have in common that set of traits I mentioned in my original response. What I’m getting at is that you shouldn’t be afraid of developing your personal style. In open field fighting, for example, you will likely have a style based on the class you are playing. It makes sense because the class you are playing will always have with you a certain set of skills needed to make a tactic work. If you are leading with a mesmer, you never have to worry if there is a mesmer along for a portal bomb or a veil. If you are leading with a thief, you never have to worry if there is someone around with a blast finisher.

yeah. i kinda stuck my foot in it trying to rally people for a defense for a much bigger situation than i realized.

i am enjoying this thread immensely, tho. lots of good information and insights to be found here. thank you all.

By the way, to all who have recommended Sun Tzu…. I’m laughing my head off going through this:

http://suntzusaid.com/

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Sun Tzu was a fan of Zerging and PvDoor. It’s good sound strategy, but….

A nice companion thread would be “How to be a good WvW follower,” I have a few.

1. Don’t argue with a commander, especially on voice comms. You can make suggestions but don’t keep doing that, it is annoying and distracting, try to keep your talking to a minimum unless to inform the group of something important (we are being flanked on the left side, portal just popped behind us). Use push to talk.

2. Whenever possible always be carrying supply, preferably 15 if you can get it. The first thing you will want to get when the wvw rewards come out is whatever option allows you to carry more supply.

3. Listen to your commander, don’t overextend. It’s hard not to when you are chasing but good commanders often know when you are being baited into a deathtrap.

4. If there are voice comms available get into voicecomms as soon as you can. It takes 3 minutes to download mumble or vent and maybe 30 seconds to set it up. You don’t even need a microphone, you just want to listen.

5. When calling out imporant information in voice comms or squad/map chat be specific. “Tower is getting attacked!!!” doesn’t tell anyone anything. “Northwest tower being attacked, they have 2 catapults on the west side, about 15 attackers” gives leadership enough to work with.

6. Don’t be an idiot with siege. Don’t drop siege unless asked to by the commander, don’t build siege unless the commander requests it. Supply is a very valuable resource, wasting it is a no-no.

7. Try to be respectful of other players. Don’t hop into unattended golems and go for a ride or refuse to leave if asked. Don’t rage if you get wiped or are losing, try to learn how you can be helpful.

8. Bring your own food and oils, use them.

9. It costs 3 silver to respec. Your awesome small group/pve spce may not be as good for WvW. If you are curious about how you should spec, ask, people will be helpful. Obvious spec choices for groups are group healing, aoe, boon additon and removal and crowd control.

JaironKalach.4938:

By the way, to all who have recommended Sun Tzu…. I’m laughing my head off going through this:

http://suntzusaid.com/

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Sun Tzu was a fan of Zerging and PvDoor. It’s good sound strategy, but….

I’m not sure where you got that idea. If anything he was quite the opposite. He favored deception and winning by smaller, smarter numbers over having a zerg anyday. He also favored not fighting at all if you could manage.

One of the big things he says is NEVER EVER go up against a walled city unless you have no other choice. Obviously that is incompatible with WvW though.

The only time he ever supported a direct attack on the enemy is if you had massive superiority in numbers, so I guess you could say that supports zerging, but you’re just missing the point…

Hickeroar.9734:

JaironKalach.4938:

By the way, to all who have recommended Sun Tzu…. I’m laughing my head off going through this:

http://suntzusaid.com/

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Sun Tzu was a fan of Zerging and PvDoor. It’s good sound strategy, but….

I’m not sure where you got that idea. If anything he was quite the opposite. He favored deception and winning by smaller, smarter numbers over having a zerg anyday. He also favored not fighting at all if you could manage.

One of the big things he says is NEVER EVER go up against a walled city unless you have no other choice. Obviously that is incompatible with WvW though.

The only time he ever supported a direct attack on the enemy is if you had massive superiority in numbers, so I guess you could say that supports zerging, but you’re just missing the point…

Erm…. Here:

http://suntzusaid.com/book/6

Lines 13-19… Keep your own actions obscure so the enemy has to have a split defense, and you can send a concentrated force (zerg) against their weakest point.

JaironKalach.4938:

Hickeroar.9734:

JaironKalach.4938:

By the way, to all who have recommended Sun Tzu…. I’m laughing my head off going through this:

http://suntzusaid.com/

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Sun Tzu was a fan of Zerging and PvDoor. It’s good sound strategy, but….

I’m not sure where you got that idea. If anything he was quite the opposite. He favored deception and winning by smaller, smarter numbers over having a zerg anyday. He also favored not fighting at all if you could manage.

One of the big things he says is NEVER EVER go up against a walled city unless you have no other choice. Obviously that is incompatible with WvW though.

The only time he ever supported a direct attack on the enemy is if you had massive superiority in numbers, so I guess you could say that supports zerging, but you’re just missing the point…

Erm…. Here:

http://suntzusaid.com/book/6

Lines 13-19… Keep your own actions obscure so the enemy has to have a split defense, and you can send a concentrated force (zerg) against their weakest point.

Sure, but that makes perfect sense. The weakest link in the chain…

He’s not supporting zerging here. He’s supporting being smart.

Overall he avoids conflict any time he can, and says that numbers don’t really have all that much to do with winning if you play smart.

He even says that the ideal war is one in which there aren’t any battles… You win by deception, supply control, pressure, etc.

Hickeroar.9734:

JaironKalach.4938:

Hickeroar.9734:

JaironKalach.4938:

By the way, to all who have recommended Sun Tzu…. I’m laughing my head off going through this:

http://suntzusaid.com/

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Sun Tzu was a fan of Zerging and PvDoor. It’s good sound strategy, but….

I’m not sure where you got that idea. If anything he was quite the opposite. He favored deception and winning by smaller, smarter numbers over having a zerg anyday. He also favored not fighting at all if you could manage.

One of the big things he says is NEVER EVER go up against a walled city unless you have no other choice. Obviously that is incompatible with WvW though.

The only time he ever supported a direct attack on the enemy is if you had massive superiority in numbers, so I guess you could say that supports zerging, but you’re just missing the point…

Erm…. Here:

http://suntzusaid.com/book/6

Lines 13-19… Keep your own actions obscure so the enemy has to have a split defense, and you can send a concentrated force (zerg) against their weakest point.

Sure, but that makes perfect sense. The weakest link in the chain…

He’s not supporting zerging here. He’s supporting being smart.

Overall he avoids conflict any time he can, and says that numbers don’t really have all that much to do with winning if you play smart.

He even says that the ideal war is one in which there aren’t any battles… You win by deception, supply control, pressure, etc.

Hrm… At some point as a game wide community we must come to agreement on the definition of “zerging.” Sure, he doesn’t support mindless rushing, but he does support setting up fights where you can win via overwhelming odds.

Edit… Remove unnecessary trailing “So” because I posted this when someone walked into my office.

JaironKalach.4938:

Hickeroar.9734:

JaironKalach.4938:

Hickeroar.9734:

JaironKalach.4938:

By the way, to all who have recommended Sun Tzu…. I’m laughing my head off going through this:

http://suntzusaid.com/

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Sun Tzu was a fan of Zerging and PvDoor. It’s good sound strategy, but….

I’m not sure where you got that idea. If anything he was quite the opposite. He favored deception and winning by smaller, smarter numbers over having a zerg anyday. He also favored not fighting at all if you could manage.

One of the big things he says is NEVER EVER go up against a walled city unless you have no other choice. Obviously that is incompatible with WvW though.

The only time he ever supported a direct attack on the enemy is if you had massive superiority in numbers, so I guess you could say that supports zerging, but you’re just missing the point…

Erm…. Here:

http://suntzusaid.com/book/6

Lines 13-19… Keep your own actions obscure so the enemy has to have a split defense, and you can send a concentrated force (zerg) against their weakest point.

Sure, but that makes perfect sense. The weakest link in the chain…

He’s not supporting zerging here. He’s supporting being smart.

Overall he avoids conflict any time he can, and says that numbers don’t really have all that much to do with winning if you play smart.

He even says that the ideal war is one in which there aren’t any battles… You win by deception, supply control, pressure, etc.

Hrm… At some point as a game wide community we must come to agreement on the definition of “zerging.” Sure, he doesn’t support mindless rushing, but he does support setting up fights where you can win via overwhelming odds. So

Yeah. I’d love to see what he’d say about WvW. A lot of the stuff he says can apply there, on a small scale. Protecting supply, deception, morale…

A lot of other stuff, discipline for instance, can’t apply. You can’t force your pugs to follow you. You might get the illusion of control with a guild group, but at the end of the day the worst you can do is kick them…and then they’re just another pug.

How to be a good commander…

It’s about respect really. You have to be willing to give full respect to everyone around you in the game. You must not shout, berate, or otherwise bash another player ever. Even if he makes the stupidest decision you could ever think of you can’t bash him for it. You must also earn the respect of your fellow players, your troops if you will. You will earn their respect over time. Most of all you cannot force other players to do things you want them to do. If they want to follow you they will. If they don’t want to follow you they won’t.

That said there are two easy ways to earn their respect: Be successful, and learn to follow.

Being successful… when you turn on that commander tag you step into the strategy game that is World Vs World. You must learn the roles of every class. You must learn how to use siege. You must learn how to conduct field combat, how to predict enemy movements and how to place your troops effectively. You must learn to coordinate with other commanders on the map and know that your server will not be truly successful if yours is the only commander tag on the map. These are things that you will only learn with experience. You can gain that experience if you learn to follow.

Learning to follow… there are other commanders on the map. There are some whose names become famous to your server. There are some who you will ask “who is this guy?” They’re all the same. They all want the same goal: for your server to succeed. Learning to follow means giving your full devotion to whatever commander you choose to follow. Support their strategy. Run the supply runs they ask for. Sweep the keeps they take for mesmers. Use your skills and build your character to support them while playing how you want to. Your name will be known and the players you follow will eventually follow you.

Once you know what strategies make sense and how to follow you can successfully lead. You will know how to inspire the players like they inspired you. Then you will be a good commander.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Only-a-WvW-player

Read it, study it, live it

Thanks all, this has all really been helpful. I read through the Art of War (took a lot of notes, def worth the read) and have been getting my feet wet the past few nights. Being on the server mumble is also amazing. I’m loving my server even more so now. It’s like a whole new world!

Beorn Saxon.4762:

Thanks all, this has all really been helpful. I read through the Art of War (took a lot of notes, def worth the read) and have been getting my feet wet the past few nights. Being on the server mumble is also amazing. I’m loving my server even more so now. It’s like a whole new world!

Please, please, please don’t start singing…

JaironKalach.4938:

Beorn Saxon.4762:

Thanks all, this has all really been helpful. I read through the Art of War (took a lot of notes, def worth the read) and have been getting my feet wet the past few nights. Being on the server mumble is also amazing. I’m loving my server even more so now. It’s like a whole new world!

Please, please, please don’t start singing…

You beat me too it.

titanlectro.5029:

JaironKalach.4938:

Beorn Saxon.4762:

Thanks all, this has all really been helpful. I read through the Art of War (took a lot of notes, def worth the read) and have been getting my feet wet the past few nights. Being on the server mumble is also amazing. I’m loving my server even more so now. It’s like a whole new world!

Please, please, please don’t start singing…

You beat me too it.

Hah. I have three little girls, and I’ve heard that song way to many times on pandora lately. I’ll try to control myself a little bit more from now on.

Sovereign.1093 wrote:
good commander
1. has siege supply and money
2. leads by example

I’m reposting that one, because it is so simple and so true. WvW is all about siege battles. So if you want to lead, make sure you have the resources to have sufficient siege plans.

Additionally, I would add: Understand how to deploy Mesmer portals work and where they are most effective.

You have some of the best commanders on our server in your guild. I would assume you are following them around regularly, there is a ton you can learn from them. GL, always nice to see a good PiNK commander on the map.

You want to be a good commander you need to do 2 things:

Get out in the field and fight. Take that silly blue Dorito chip off your head and slog through the trenches with the grunts for a bit and Learn who you are fighting alongside.

Then see what the other guys are doing. You want to command then all the tactics, books smarts and stuff is worthless, just focus on Learning your Opponent.

Once you know who you are fighting with and against, you will know what it takes command.

Everything else is puffery, imho.