Guild Wars 2

And you only find out at the very end.

It’s a great idea to keep the focus on owning maps. However, it would be a wasted gesture. WvW is simple enough to monitor that it would just force people in to using third party tools to tally the score.

In order for this sort of “endgame tally only” thing to work, the entire scoring system would need to change, the API would have to be truncated, and a whole lot of other stuff.

I like the sentiment of the idea, but it’s just impractical.

Can you imagine trying to suggest this for the NFL, the NBA.. the MLB?!! There would be riots. Violence and bloodshed would ensure.. never speak of such things again..

No that would reduce room for strategy and dumb down the game.

Ramoth.9064:

And you only find out at the very end.

If it is hidden, it is meaningless and could be removed completely.

FogLeg.9354:

If it is hidden, it is meaningless and could be removed completely.

The current score system is already meaningless and it should be removed. Players are not rewarded based on the score. Rewards mostly occur from PvD. As it is the score is merely an indicator of what server is currently dominant in numbers.

The focus should be on leveling the playing field so that the fights are more even. If they even out the fights, the score will reflect that.

Isn’t the argument that people give up earlier when they see the score has advanced too much?

There is no logic in this proposal. Take for example soccer, you want to say players will find it more interesting and fun when they do not know what current score is? They just all run around the field and kick the ball because, you know, they like to run and kick?

No. Score is important factor. Some players play ONLY to increase the score, some play to have fights and increase score and some don’t care much about it but there is NO reason to hide it.

Soccer is something that has a much simpler score calculation.

I just gave you a reason to hide it. The devs say people get disillusioned about the prospects of winning (even though they do have a chance to win) based on seeing the score itself.

The comparison of WvW and other sports is illogical. Perhaps we should compare this to a real battlefield, where there are no score indicators either. But I won’t, because that is a different comparison to make. If the devs themselves acknowledge the ‘loss of will to fight’ is an issue attributed to the score, then this is one such solution to combat it.

Hide players’ health bars and let them know only after the forced revive they’ve been ghosts for the last 5 mins. :P

Ramoth.9064:

I just gave you a reason to hide it. The devs say people get disillusioned about the prospects of winning (even though they do have a chance to win) based on seeing the score itself.

You assume every match is completely unbalanced, which is not true. Some matches are, obviously, and then players may try little less since it does not matter anymore. But there are also many matches where scores end up being close, in those cases knowing the score actually helps to try harder.

No thanks, I wanna know when i have to play much and when I can slack.

Plenty of board games (most of which are, like WvW, all about territory control and PPT) don’t tally the score until the end.

Even in traditional sports, people have a tendancy to tune out if the game is already decided before the halfway mark if its obvious there’s no opening for a turnaround.

WvW is not a sport. It never will be. The number of players on the field varies by the minute, you have no control over the composition of the teams, and the participants can choose to leave the field at any time with no repurcussions.

Making sports analogies in relation to WvW is like comparing apples and oranges. It isn’t a sport, and it isn’t a competitive mode, and it never will be. It’s a casual, instant gratification interpretetion of open world siege pvp that only holds player interest as long as the moment to moment play remains interesting.

There are no instrinsic concept or benefits of ownership, no stakes, and literally nothing that makes “real” competition in a siege metagame work. It’s just a large population pvp map with objectives designed to shuffle players in to large group engagements. That’s all it will ever be. It is a meaningless war for no stakes that never ends, never benefits the victor, and never punishes the loser.

And that’s fine. That’s why the rewards revamp focused on personal reward rather than objective based reward. It’s the only logical reward structure for a system that has only ever been about personal gratification and playing war games in stead of attempting to simulate the decision making and tactical processes that go in to a more detailed and impactful actual war game.

If anything, the entire concept of matches and score could be removed from WvW and it would change nothing. The score doesn’t matter, winning or losing doesn’t matter, and there are so many variables inherant in its systems that ensuring “fair” or “competitive” match ups is an impossibility.

PopeUrban.2578:

Plenty of board games (most of which are, like WvW, all about territory control and PPT) don’t tally the score until the end.

Even in traditional sports, people have a tendancy to tune out if the game is already decided before the halfway mark if its obvious there’s no opening for a turnaround.

WvW is not a sport. It never will be. The number of players on the field varies by the minute, you have no control over the composition of the teams, and the participants can choose to leave the field at any time with no repurcussions.

Making sports analogies in relation to WvW is like comparing apples and oranges. It isn’t a sport, and it isn’t a competitive mode, and it never will be. It’s a casual, instant gratification interpretetion of open world siege pvp that only holds player interest as long as the moment to moment play remains interesting.

There are no instrinsic concept or benefits of ownership, no stakes, and literally nothing that makes “real” competition in a siege metagame work. It’s just a large population pvp map with objectives designed to shuffle players in to large group engagements. That’s all it will ever be. It is a meaningless war for no stakes that never ends, never benefits the victor, and never punishes the loser.

And that’s fine. That’s why the rewards revamp focused on personal reward rather than objective based reward. It’s the only logical reward structure for a system that has only ever been about personal gratification and playing war games in stead of attempting to simulate the decision making and tactical processes that go in to a more detailed and impactful actual war game.

If anything, the entire concept of matches and score could be removed from WvW and it would change nothing. The score doesn’t matter, winning or losing doesn’t matter, and there are so many variables inherant in its systems that ensuring “fair” or “competitive” match ups is an impossibility.

You are mistaken. It IS a competitive mode as longs as there is a score and a winner and SHOULD be compared to other sports. Ii IS a Large scale PVP game mode, and just as competitive as any other sport, Esport or otherwise.

It would change everything if there was no score. The score determines who you fight. It would just be a mini closed world PvP zone inside a PvE game not even half as good as the actual open world PvP games on the market..

Why would you play WvW instead of just an open world PvP game with many more options than this one? At least on some of those you can build and design your own forts and not ones limited like the ones here.

PopeUrban.2578:

Plenty of board games (most of which are, like WvW, all about territory control and PPT) don’t tally the score until the end.

Even in traditional sports, people have a tendancy to tune out if the game is already decided before the halfway mark if its obvious there’s no opening for a turnaround.

WvW is not a sport. It never will be. The number of players on the field varies by the minute, you have no control over the composition of the teams, and the participants can choose to leave the field at any time with no repurcussions.

Making sports analogies in relation to WvW is like comparing apples and oranges. It isn’t a sport, and it isn’t a competitive mode, and it never will be. It’s a casual, instant gratification interpretetion of open world siege pvp that only holds player interest as long as the moment to moment play remains interesting.

There are no instrinsic concept or benefits of ownership, no stakes, and literally nothing that makes “real” competition in a siege metagame work. It’s just a large population pvp map with objectives designed to shuffle players in to large group engagements. That’s all it will ever be. It is a meaningless war for no stakes that never ends, never benefits the victor, and never punishes the loser.

And that’s fine. That’s why the rewards revamp focused on personal reward rather than objective based reward. It’s the only logical reward structure for a system that has only ever been about personal gratification and playing war games in stead of attempting to simulate the decision making and tactical processes that go in to a more detailed and impactful actual war game.

If anything, the entire concept of matches and score could be removed from WvW and it would change nothing. The score doesn’t matter, winning or losing doesn’t matter, and there are so many variables inherant in its systems that ensuring “fair” or “competitive” match ups is an impossibility.

Completely agree.

Too many random variables to ever become a serious competitive play style.

PopeUrban.2578:

If anything, the entire concept of matches and score could be removed from WvW and it would change nothing. The score doesn’t matter, winning or losing doesn’t matter…

While none of that matters to you, for other players winning the match could be sole reason to play WvW. Some players are fine with mindless open field brawls where blobs run into each other for hours without any other reason. For others the purpose is taking objectives and scoring more points. These are both activities players enjoy, one is not better or worse.

Back to the proposal of this thread – if knowing the score bothers you, don’t look at it, ignore it completely but let other players who play for the points enjoy their gamestyle.

I’m not saying the score is useless, but showing the score only serves as a detriment to the mentality of players because people do give up when the score is too far out stretched.

@FogLeg, gawsh you must be the greatest innovator of this generation, if simply telling people not to do something somehow alleviates the problem the whole world would be problem free now. There’s this stupid mentality that every suggestion thrown on this forum is to stick it to someone else or something.

The idea is that you only see the score at the very end, and with enough incentive and rewards to actually win the match up, people will try indefinitely harder to win.

Sure! Let’s also hide the scores in basketball, hockey, football, and much much more!…

Famine.7915:

Sure! Let’s also hide the scores in basketball, hockey, football, and much much more!…

Oh you mean like real war? Since we are comparing and all. Comparing completely two completely different things.

Ramoth.9064:

Famine.7915:

Sure! Let’s also hide the scores in basketball, hockey, football, and much much more!…

Oh you mean like real war? Since we are comparing and all. Comparing completely two completely different things.

Um no, you are comparing two different things. Basketball, hockey, Football, Ping pong, Hearts, Darts.. they are all games. WvW is not only a game, it is a game within a game.

Comparing a game to something as horrific and tragic as war is not even fathomable.

The point is they are different and that they aren’t comparable. Where our big soccerball? Wheres our paddles? Why does soccer only have 11 people a team where as basketball has 5? As someone said earlier, board games are games, and many boardgames only tally the score at the very end.

Oh and this whole lets not compare war thing, get it out the door, theres a billion games out there that emulate war so no high horses please.

The whole ‘soccer doesn’t do that’ argument is stupid. Soccer doesn’t do a whole lot of other kitten too.

Oh hey look at this: one of the oldest games in existence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_

Unless you’re actually good enough to know you’ve been outplayed guess when the score is shown? TA DA. THE END. LETS COMPARE THIS.

Ramoth.9064:

The point is they are different and that they aren’t comparable. Where our big soccerball? Wheres our paddles? Why does soccer only have 11 people a team where as basketball has 5? As someone said earlier, board games are games, and many boardgames only tally the score at the very end.

Oh and this whole lets not compare war thing, get it out the door, theres a billion games out there that emulate war so no high horses please.

The whole ‘soccer doesn’t do that’ argument is stupid. Soccer doesn’t do a whole lot of other kitten too.

Oh hey look at this: one of the oldest games in existence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_

Unless you’re actually good enough to know you’ve been outplayed guess when the score is shown? TA DA. THE END. LETS COMPARE THIS.

WvW is no different than many PvP games where you capture points, flags, or structures, but make no mistake it IS a game, and there IS a score.

The way many play WvW is they look at all maps as being their objectives and hop from each one strategically controlling the playing field by forcing their opponents to choose between which targets they will defend and which they will allow to let go. They frequently make the decisions of which objectives to hit and which to defend or let go based on the structures value to the team and it’s contribution to the score.

The games where people do not actually die are no where near comparable to actual war. In War, when people die, they do not respawn and get back into the fight, they die and enemy forces are dwindled down and you dominate them. You crush them until there is no more opposition. Due to respawning in this game, and war being about crushing opposition and forcing the remaining survivors you did not kill to comply or assimilate it would not be even remotely comparable.

The only games that actually emulate war are games where people actually die.

Games where you can get right back into the game are nothing like war.

lil devils x.6071:

Ramoth.9064:

The point is they are different and that they aren’t comparable. Where our big soccerball? Wheres our paddles? Why does soccer only have 11 people a team where as basketball has 5? As someone said earlier, board games are games, and many boardgames only tally the score at the very end.

Oh and this whole lets not compare war thing, get it out the door, theres a billion games out there that emulate war so no high horses please.

The whole ‘soccer doesn’t do that’ argument is stupid. Soccer doesn’t do a whole lot of other kitten too.

Oh hey look at this: one of the oldest games in existence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_

Unless you’re actually good enough to know you’ve been outplayed guess when the score is shown? TA DA. THE END. LETS COMPARE THIS.

WvW is no different than many PvP games where you capture points, flags, or structures, but make no mistake it IS a game, and there IS a score.

The way many play WvW is they look at all maps as being their objectives and hop from each one strategically controlling the playing field by forcing their opponents to choose between which targets they will defend and which they will allow to let go. They frequently make the decisions of which objectives to hit and which to defend or let go based on the structures value to the team and it’s contribution to the score.

The games where people do not actually die are no where near comparable to actual war. In War, when people die, they do not respawn and get back into the fight, they die and enemy forces are dwindled down and you dominate them. You crush them until there is no more opposition. Due to respawning in this game, and war being about crushing opposition and forcing the remaining survivors you did not kill to comply or assimilate it would not be even remotely comparable.

The only games that actually emulate war are games where people actually die.

Games where you can get right back into the game are nothing like war.

You’re proving my point. WvW is WvW, its not soccer, its not war. Just because soccer shows the score doesn’t mean WvW needs to. You’ve made one valid argument for showing the score in this reply and I applaud you for making sense. I was highlighting the point that comparing WvW to a sport is inane, just as you think comparing it to war is, too.

Ramoth.9064:

lil devils x.6071:

Ramoth.9064:

The point is they are different and that they aren’t comparable. Where our big soccerball? Wheres our paddles? Why does soccer only have 11 people a team where as basketball has 5? As someone said earlier, board games are games, and many boardgames only tally the score at the very end.

Oh and this whole lets not compare war thing, get it out the door, theres a billion games out there that emulate war so no high horses please.

The whole ‘soccer doesn’t do that’ argument is stupid. Soccer doesn’t do a whole lot of other kitten too.

Oh hey look at this: one of the oldest games in existence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_

Unless you’re actually good enough to know you’ve been outplayed guess when the score is shown? TA DA. THE END. LETS COMPARE THIS.

WvW is no different than many PvP games where you capture points, flags, or structures, but make no mistake it IS a game, and there IS a score.

The way many play WvW is they look at all maps as being their objectives and hop from each one strategically controlling the playing field by forcing their opponents to choose between which targets they will defend and which they will allow to let go. They frequently make the decisions of which objectives to hit and which to defend or let go based on the structures value to the team and it’s contribution to the score.

The games where people do not actually die are no where near comparable to actual war. In War, when people die, they do not respawn and get back into the fight, they die and enemy forces are dwindled down and you dominate them. You crush them until there is no more opposition. Due to respawning in this game, and war being about crushing opposition and forcing the remaining survivors you did not kill to comply or assimilate it would not be even remotely comparable.

The only games that actually emulate war are games where people actually die.

Games where you can get right back into the game are nothing like war.

You’re proving my point. WvW is WvW, its not soccer, its not war. Just because soccer shows the score doesn’t mean WvW needs to. You’ve made one valid argument for showing the score in this reply and I applaud you for making sense. I was highlighting the point that comparing WvW to a sport is inane, just as you think comparing it to war is, too.

WvW IS a " sport". Your team competes against others for entertainment, which is the very definition of sport when you google " sport definition."

WvW score determines who wins the match.

Google definition of Match :

“a contest in which people or teams compete against each other in a particular sport.”

Some of those playing WvW use the score in the match to determine their actions, and the removal of it would impact their actions. Of course if one does not wish to know the score, they can place a piece of tape over the score on their screen, while the rest of the players enjoy knowing the score and using it to determine whether they are just going to have fun fights that day or secure some objectives first.

( yes the tape over the score was a reference to the whole" just cover the xbox one camera with tape" debacle. XD)

In addition, on the wiki list of sports.. even Dominoes is considered a " sport."

I’ve never once said that we should remove the score. I agree it is necessary for determining a victor. I said to hide the score, and for it to be revealed at the end such that it doesn’t affect morale. You also said WvW is a game, and there are games that use this scoring mentality.

Ramoth.9064:

I’ve never once said that we should remove the score. I agree it is necessary for determining a victor. I said to hide the score, and for it to be revealed at the end such that it doesn’t affect morale. You also said WvW is a game, and there are games that use this scoring mentality.

Of course there are, and there are players who play many of those games who keep score themselves as well. Many players want to see the score and it affects their style of game play. Those who do not can cover it as I suggested. You are proposing taking something from them, they are not proposing taking anything from you, therefor instead of trying to impose your will upon them, simply cover it up, and you both have your way eh?

lil devils x.6071:

Ramoth.9064:

I’ve never once said that we should remove the score. I agree it is necessary for determining a victor. I said to hide the score, and for it to be revealed at the end such that it doesn’t affect morale. You also said WvW is a game, and there are games that use this scoring mentality.

Of course there are, and there are players who play many of those games who keep score themselves as well. Many players want to see the score and it affects their style of game play. Those who do not can cover it as I suggested. You are proposing taking something from them, they are not proposing taking anything from you, therefor instead of trying to impose your will upon them, simply cover it up, and you both have your way eh?

I actually don’t care either way, I made this topic because a dev suggested people lose morale. Which is true. This is much like how ‘games lost’ has been removed from the statistics in many games, such as starcraft 2, because something so simple, which COULD have been covered, affected morale and lowered participation .‘. removed. It has nothing to do with whether players want to keep it or not, if it affects the game for the better, and I’m only debating that it can, (while not saying it can’t be wrong too) then the devs will implement it.

Now, please, get it through your head, it is nothing to do with me imposing my will or such. Either debate properly about its pros and cons instead of applying inane insinuations on what I have no intention of doing. See how the topic is structured as a question? I did not write ‘cover up the score because I don’t want to see it’.

Ramoth.9064:

lil devils x.6071:

Ramoth.9064:

I’ve never once said that we should remove the score. I agree it is necessary for determining a victor. I said to hide the score, and for it to be revealed at the end such that it doesn’t affect morale. You also said WvW is a game, and there are games that use this scoring mentality.

Of course there are, and there are players who play many of those games who keep score themselves as well. Many players want to see the score and it affects their style of game play. Those who do not can cover it as I suggested. You are proposing taking something from them, they are not proposing taking anything from you, therefor instead of trying to impose your will upon them, simply cover it up, and you both have your way eh?

I actually don’t care either way, I made this topic because a dev suggested people lose morale. Which is true. This is much like how ‘games lost’ has been removed from the statistics in many games, such as starcraft 2, because something so simple, which COULD have been covered, affected morale and lowered participation .‘. removed. It has nothing to do with whether players want to keep it or not, if it affects the game for the better, and I’m only debating that it can, (while not saying it can’t be wrong too) then the devs will implement it.

Now, please, get it through your head, it is nothing to do with me imposing my will or such. Either debate properly about its pros and cons instead of applying inane insinuations on what I have no intention of doing. See how the topic is structured as a question? I did not write ‘cover up the score because I don’t want to see it’.

Cons:

• Removing it removes the competitive and strategic nature of WvW and those players who wish to compete on that level will lose interest in the game mode. Many players do view it as a sport, like all of the other sports they play and treat it accordingly. Simply because you do not, does not mean others do not, so yes it is imposing on them to suggest removing it.

• Some players ( like myself) prefer to play only when the game seems hopeless and want to be outnumbered and the underdog in the fight and do not enjoy playing unless they know they are losing so they have a challenge to change that. Some players like charging in when the rest are fleeing, and fighting under the worst circumstances is what they enjoy in the game and are bored otherwise.

• WvW guilds schedule when they will raid and what they will do on those raids often to how the server is doing that week. If they know they are maintaining the lead, they can relax a bit and have some fun fights and raids and not have to worry as much about watching all the maps and working as hard as they would if they were behind. Some guilds have rules that " check WvW, if it is doing okay, we can go do this instead of worry about PPT."

• Hiding the score just further care bears up the game mode to give some a false sense of “YAY! We’re winning!” even when they not at the same time the winning servers that are going hard will just further run up the score on them due to not knowing when they can let up go have fun goofing off and let the other guys catch up a bit.

lil devils x.6071:

Ramoth.9064:

lil devils x.6071:

Ramoth.9064:

I’ve never once said that we should remove the score. I agree it is necessary for determining a victor. I said to hide the score, and for it to be revealed at the end such that it doesn’t affect morale. You also said WvW is a game, and there are games that use this scoring mentality.

Of course there are, and there are players who play many of those games who keep score themselves as well. Many players want to see the score and it affects their style of game play. Those who do not can cover it as I suggested. You are proposing taking something from them, they are not proposing taking anything from you, therefor instead of trying to impose your will upon them, simply cover it up, and you both have your way eh?

I actually don’t care either way, I made this topic because a dev suggested people lose morale. Which is true. This is much like how ‘games lost’ has been removed from the statistics in many games, such as starcraft 2, because something so simple, which COULD have been covered, affected morale and lowered participation .‘. removed. It has nothing to do with whether players want to keep it or not, if it affects the game for the better, and I’m only debating that it can, (while not saying it can’t be wrong too) then the devs will implement it.

Now, please, get it through your head, it is nothing to do with me imposing my will or such. Either debate properly about its pros and cons instead of applying inane insinuations on what I have no intention of doing. See how the topic is structured as a question? I did not write ‘cover up the score because I don’t want to see it’.

Cons:

• Removing it removes the competitive and strategic nature of WvW and those players who wish to compete on that level will lose interest in the game mode. Many players do view it as a sport, like all of the other sports they play and treat it accordingly. Simply because you do not, does not mean others do not, so yes it is imposing on them to suggest removing it.

• Some players ( like myself) prefer to play only when the game seems hopeless and want to be outnumbered and the underdog in the fight and do not enjoy playing unless they know they are losing so they have a challenge to change that. Some players like charging in when the rest are fleeing, and fighting under the worst circumstances is what they enjoy in the game and are bored otherwise.

• WvW guilds schedule when they will raid and what they will do on those raids often to how the server is doing that week. If they know they are maintaining the lead, they can relax a bit and have some fun fights and raids and not have to worry as much about watching all the maps and working as hard as they would if they were behind. Some guilds have rules that " check WvW, if it is doing okay, we can go do this instead of worry about PPT."

• Hiding the score just further care bears up the game mode to give some a false sense of “YAY! We’re winning!” even when they not at the same time the winning servers that are going hard will just further run up the score on them due to not knowing when they can let up go have fun goofing off and let the other guys catch up a bit.

1: I don’t think this point is valid, there is still a score, and the competitiveness is still valid. Not to mention, PPT is still visable because of the map. And as to what some players do, well thats what some players do. Especially since thats some and not all. Some people most definitely will do the opposite. Strategy in WvW comes more often from the PPT ticker timer than the actual score itself. The actual score has no bearing on any strategy in the game because the goal always is to capture as much as you can, before the ticker. The overall score only affects morale.

2. Moot point. You won’t know if you are losing or not, and there could be a billion reasons that motivate people to play, yours has but only an equal weighting. Besides, you actually get a buff for being outnumbered. That has nothing to do with the score.

3. Again, this is a point about motivation and incentives. I could say that there are WvW guilds that won’t play because the score is too much of a blowout. Which is exactly the case that a dev raised. How they schedule is up to them, and there could be a billion other reasons for them to participate/not participate.

4. The only thing that would be remotely ‘care-bear’ is if everyone received equal rewards for different amounts of participation. A participation reward if you will. Since WvW rewards are pretty much based on effort and not the final score (which outside of the seasonal competitions means absolutely nothing) this is a moot point.

You keep making WvW sound like an obligation, the motivations for what makes people play are far and beyond what either of us can comprehend with a blanket statement, however, it has been known to be true, as a dev stated, that blowout scores lowers participation. And yes, you can very well argue that close scores may increase participation, I think the former is seen as much greater an issue than the latter currently.

I think this idea is awful. I liken it to removing the HP bar on the mega event bosses, say the laser one, and making it so you have to guess when to go off and fire the lasers.

Not being able to see the score means there is no motivation to affect it- so even less reason to defend when you’re outmanned or attack pvd as a guild to help the score along, no idea whether you can take it easy and have some fun or push hard as the score is close, etc.

lil devils x.6071:

You are mistaken. It IS a competitive mode as longs as there is a score and a winner and SHOULD be compared to other sports. Ii IS a Large scale PVP game mode, and just as competitive as any other sport, Esport or otherwise.

Technically, yes. However in terms of leaderboards, the concept of leauges, etc. the challenge factor is not and can not be stable enough to ensure ‘even’ matchups. When I say “is not competitive” I’m talking about it in terms of its viability as a platform for things like sports.

It’s simply an impossibility due to the limitations of its design. Matches are determined farm more by random or deliberate shifts in player population than any skill or strategy.

lil devils x.6071:

It would change everything if there was no score. The score determines who you fight. It would just be a mini closed world PvP zone inside a PvE game not even half as good as the actual open world PvP games on the market..

Who you fight does not matter it is a “mini closed world PvP zone inside a PvE game not even half as good as the actual open world PvP games on the market”

That was my entire point. Attempting to treat it like something it is not doesn’t change that fact. The battles fought in WvW are meaningless. The ownership of or loss of objectives does not significantly benefit or penalize the participants, and no matter how good you are, how devious your strategies, how much you sink in to the new tactics system, at the end of the day your match is reset at the end of the week, and you are afforded nothing of value for winning, and are denied nothing of value for losing.

lil devils x.6071:

Why would you play WvW instead of just an open world PvP game with many more options than this one? At least on some of those you can build and design your own forts and not ones limited like the ones here.

Again, exactly my point. WvW is good at doing what it is designed to do. Give a context for players to quickly build, destroy, and take over objectives multiple times an hour. It is a game mode focused on providing siege style combat without meaningful context. It is wholly desigtned on the moment to moment experience of the individual player. it endeavors to make you feel like you’re taking part in epic battles despite those battles, win or lose, being largely inconsequential.

The rewards revamp both recognized and improved that core design. WvW is not a war game. The very core of its design prevents it from being one. It is a collection of open PvP zones masquerading as a war game, where objectives flip-flop and at the end of the week a score is tallied, and the winners win nothing and the losers lose nothing. Everyone is simply shuffled around in an attempt to make the next week a more ’fair" and “even” contest that is equally meaningless.

and that’s fine

That high-action no-consequences style of play is why all of the people that love WvW still play it. They love the feeling of taking or defending an objective, and love that winning and losing is just abstract numbers.

However, it has been conclusively proven that those numbers are not a significant enough driver to get people to continue to play, and that the basic underpinnings of the design are not compelling enough to hold people’s attention in a losing match.

People leave for the week because there is nothing meaningful at stake and people bandwagon to larger servers because there is no formal structure that prevents it because the competitive underpinnings and win/loss structure are ultimately, deliberately meaningless.

WvW is a game designed around constant fighting and rapid turnover of impressive looking objectives. It is not, however, a game designed around a competitive scene of smart tacticians and holding the map to come out on top. It it were, its biggest fans would leave in droves because “there aren’t enough fights” or “it takes too long to take a tower” or “it’s too expensive”

THAT Is what I mean when I say it’s in no way a competitive mode. It simply isn’t designed for competition. It’s designed to created a bare minimum context for large groups of players to kill each other for personal rewards that appear out of thin air. It is designed to reward both success and failure equally to ensure that just playing is more important than playing to win and avoiding losses

To be honest, yeah in some ways this could work.

As for pros/cons I’m not sure. I imagine it would shift the focus to a much more short term goal (the PPT still being visible would provide incentive to pursue change while removing the feeling of “they’re 100k points ahead, there’s no point”.) But it might be the case that at the end of the week players would feel cheated of a victory they thought they had earned when they found out that actually their totals were far less than expected.

Another thing is I use total score as a general metric for when we’re vastly outnumbered or not. Seeing we’re vastly outnumbered (way behind in points) does disincentivise me from play, but hiding the score doesn’t make my server any less vastly outnumbered (actual player numbers) so I’m not sure whether hiding the points total would really lead me to having more fun or just lead me to try playing at times when fun is more difficult to achieve, hence leading to disillusionment with the game mode.

Not sure if I explained myself particularly well here, multitasking is hard.

If they did bring in this change though you can be sure that players whose servers lose would blame the change in how points were displayed for their loss and not any rational reasons.

Edit if they do enable this “time slices” idea then it could be interesting to display the point totals for the current time slice but not the results of previous time slices, that might be a good balance between short term and long term goals.

There’s no need to remove the score.

Just remove the champ boxes from tower/keep lords. Have them grant no loot whatsoever, only wxp. Actual lootbags should only drop from player kills.