Guild Wars 2

Myself and many of the EBG JP portalling mesmers I’ve known prefer to work together with their opponent servers’ mesmers so that everyone can benefit without worrying about being severely murdered without warning. This isn’t hard to set up, but very difficult to maintain for long periods of time for a number of reasons- including RP warmongers, misunderstandings with auto-attack, new guys curious about the trap switches, and JP gank guilds.

The first two, while annoying, don’t very often ruin things beyond repair. The third, usually prevented by just telling people not to mess with the switches, is almost always a dealbreaker. The fourth, however, is ruinous, and usually shakes the willingness of each server involved to participate in the future.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not calling out any particular JP camp guild or trying to say it should be against the rules to fight in the JP or mneh beh no moar pvp neh or anything like that. I just want to crowdsource ideas on how partnering mesmers can better preserve peace in the EBG JP.

The best way to preserve peace in the WvW JP is to kill the enemy so that only allies are left alive in the JP.

Never.

I played my mesmer yesterday with Focus/GS, best fun at arena ever pulling down this warrior at the last platform 30+ times, so tenacious! One mesmer managed to pull me down but alas, you guys were killed mercilessly ^-^

Isn’t it obvious that the WvW jump puzzles are designed for ganking? The whole setup screams “ambush”.

Peace in a pvp map? You gotta be joking.

A week without an hour or two ganking the puzzle jumpers is a like day without sunshine… or actually its a slow week. Because if I’m fed enough bloodshed & bags from your server mates, I will actually stay out and kill them instead.

Ravien.4823:

The best way to preserve peace in the WvW JP is to kill the enemy so that only allies are left alive in the JP.

The only JP you should expect peace in is YOURS. If it’s red, it’s dead. Run your own BL for free badges, you get nothing from mine if I can help it. Not that I spend time in em. I don’t like JP’s and rarely bother going anywhere near them. Unless I figure enemy are camping them to camp flip. Then it’s hunting season.

I just had to come back and add.

lololololololololololololololololol

The best way to have peace at the JP is to remove it from WvW and put it somewhere in PvE where it belongs.

SpookyBiscuits.7534:

The third, usually prevented by just telling people not to mess with the switches, is almost always a dealbreaker.

Why are you trying to find ways to get people to not use the mechanics of the game? I’d ask what is the best way to get rid of annoying pve mesmers who are trying to obstruct other players from enjoying the game, especially in the WvW jumping puzzle…for WvW players.

i woudnt mind paying people for killing people in the JP…

Peace? Through superior fire power!

Complaining about PvP in a PvP area.

OP if I could kill you in a lions arch overflow I would

Why would you want to empower they other server with free siege and badges to take your towers, keeps, and family’s by being friendly in the JP? O _ O. You’re doing your server a dis-service by not killing the red player next to you near the top. Even more so if its a Mesmer. Enemy mesmers are worth 20 points.

That, and I enjoy reading the semi-montly QQpost in the WvW section about some poor pve person who is to afraid to actually fight to get there Gift of BATTLE. ^.~!

Mada.5319:

Peace in a pvp map? You gotta be joking.

^this, I’m afraid that peace won’t ever happen, even irl so let alone the cyber world :P

if you cant handle the fight in the jp then don;t try and hold it me personally i love the thrill of the fight in the jp yanking the messmers or anyone that chooses to get close enough to be pulled to there death. I will never give peace to the jp its the only place there is no zerg to fight.

Lavath.8924:

The best way to have peace at the JP is to remove it from WvW and put it somewhere in PvE where it belongs.

Totally. Having PvE versions of the maps (with PvE-only awards i.e. no badges, blueprints) would also solve the problem of PvE map completion players taking up WvWvW slots.

SpookyBiscuits.7534:

Myself and many of the EBG JP portalling mesmers I’ve known prefer to work together with their opponent servers’ mesmers so that everyone can benefit without worrying about being severely murdered without warning.

What more warning could you want besides the enemy showing up in red? I don’t understand why people don’t expect to be attacked in a JP which is pretty clearly designed for ambush and is in a PvP area.

Fortunately I’ve met a lot of intelligent people who realize it’s a waste of time fighting in JPs. We just cautiously move around each other and we both benefit. Enemy or not, in the long run cooperation pays off.

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red. Meaning if their own teammates were red they would mindlessly go into a berserk rage and try to kill or die themselves. Can’t reason with these guys.

Unfortunately irrational people end up ruining it for those who are more sensible. Lots of us come to WvW just for the badges and we all benefit by getting what we want. In addition, killing someone actually has a pretty kittenty badge drop rate. The risk/reward ratio is extremely poor.

So for those who fight “just because it’s red”, consider that you’re being manipulated. You fight just because you’re told to fight. You say it’s a PvP map. So what? It doesn’t force you to do anything. If you feel compelled to be belligerent just because of a color…well then you’re a tool. It’s as simple as that.

So I’ve learnt that when I do JPs as a mesmer, I equip my focus and coolly pull off the ledge those who attack me. I’m not interested in killing them – not worth my time. They’re just annoyances to be gotten rid of when they come between me and my badges.

So please – don’t waste my time attacking me in JPs. Be a bit sensible and we’ll all get what we came here for without any pesky situations along the way.

btw DO NOT GO into jp when facing DB during NNK prime time unless u wanna get steamrolled by 40 + angry DB s XD

Best way to achieve peace is to use the invisi-fountains.

bhagwad.4281:

Lots of us come to WvW just for the badges

umm no. I don’t think it’s true for real WvWer. They have more then enough badges mainly used for blue prints. Even me who play about 2 hour a day have more then enough badges for the gift and I don’t do JPs. I wish Anet remove badges from JP. They should only drop from players.

bhagwad.4281:

Fortunately I’ve met a lot of intelligent people who realize it’s a waste of time fighting in JPs. We just cautiously move around each other and we both benefit. Enemy or not, in the long run cooperation pays off.

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red. Meaning if their own teammates were red they would mindlessly go into a berserk rage and try to kill or die themselves. Can’t reason with these guys.

Unfortunately irrational people end up ruining it for those who are more sensible. Lots of us come to WvW just for the badges and we all benefit by getting what we want. In addition, killing someone actually has a pretty kittenty badge drop rate. The risk/reward ratio is extremely poor.

So for those who fight “just because it’s red”, consider that you’re being manipulated. You fight just because you’re told to fight. You say it’s a PvP map. So what? It doesn’t force you to do anything. If you feel compelled to be belligerent just because of a color…well then you’re a tool. It’s as simple as that.

So I’ve learnt that when I do JPs as a mesmer, I equip my focus and coolly pull off the ledge those who attack me. I’m not interested in killing them – not worth my time. They’re just annoyances to be gotten rid of when they come between me and my badges.

So please – don’t waste my time attacking me in JPs. Be a bit sensible and we’ll all get what we came here for without any pesky situations along the way.

It doesn’t make them tools, that’s merely your opinion. The way I see it people are exercising their freedom to choose, to fight or not to fight, some do and some don’t. I myself have done the JP and gave respect to people and I still get attacked and killed. And after the 100th time being ganked, I just decided for myself that I’m tired of getting ganked. So I’m Not gonna wait to see if this person or these group of Reds are friendly or not. I’m either gonna avoid them or fight them. But I’m not going to be lovey dovey with someone who is clearly my enemy.

Who are you to judge them and call them ‘tools’? As far as I’m concern you’re the narrow minded one labeling people like that.

All you " lets be friends " jumpers out there get me lots of badges =)

bhagwad.4281:

So please – don’t waste my time attacking me in JPs. Be a bit sensible and we’ll all get what we came here for without any pesky situations along the way.

But I came to the JP to kill you and then find your five paragraph essays on the forum.

bhagwad.4281:

Fortunately I’ve met a lot of intelligent people who realize it’s a waste of time fighting in JPs. We just cautiously move around each other and we both benefit. Enemy or not, in the long run cooperation pays off.

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red. Meaning if their own teammates were red they would mindlessly go into a berserk rage and try to kill or die themselves. Can’t reason with these guys.

Unfortunately irrational people end up ruining it for those who are more sensible. Lots of us come to WvW just for the badges and we all benefit by getting what we want. In addition, killing someone actually has a pretty kittenty badge drop rate. The risk/reward ratio is extremely poor.

So for those who fight “just because it’s red”, consider that you’re being manipulated. You fight just because you’re told to fight. You say it’s a PvP map. So what? It doesn’t force you to do anything. If you feel compelled to be belligerent just because of a color…well then you’re a tool. It’s as simple as that.

So I’ve learnt that when I do JPs as a mesmer, I equip my focus and coolly pull off the ledge those who attack me. I’m not interested in killing them – not worth my time. They’re just annoyances to be gotten rid of when they come between me and my badges.

So please – don’t waste my time attacking me in JPs. Be a bit sensible and we’ll all get what we came here for without any pesky situations along the way.

This is a perfect example as to why I camp the JP. Keep on coming inside.

SpookyBiscuits.7534:

Myself and many of the EBG JP portalling mesmers I’ve known prefer to work together with their opponent servers’ mesmers so that …

Treason !

when i am solo, i, ‘mostly’ leave a non level 50 player i see running to a nearby POI/vista to get his POI/vista, running after him but not attacking him, standing next to him as he watches his movie, making it very clear that it’s only my ‘mercy’ that allows him to get it, after which i (try and most often succeed in) kill him. no quarter is ever given to a level 50 and certainly not in a jumping puzzle where the enemy can get siege to be used against my server.

when i’m not alone, it’s mostly kill on sight even on the lowbie(s) going for the POI/vista, unless everyone i am with is on the same voice com. simply no point in holding back when the person next to you is unlikely to do so and can not be told to hold back fast enough.

w3 is war, totall war.

silkysoft.6749:

OP if I could kill you in a lions arch overflow I would

haha, agree, sometimes i wish for an option to kill ‘treacherous’ players from one’s own server just to make a point.

I don’t attack other players in the JP by default. If someone is dumb enough to attack me, I kill them. If you’re even semi-skilled at WvW, it’s really easy to kill the trolls in the JP. They’re generally the people who weren’t good enough to get badges the old-fashioned way (straight-up combat). If there’s a group of them camping, party up with others who died to them and go wipe them. This isn’t rocket science.

Off-topic, but whenever I kill a JP camper or heartseeker thief, I /laugh and frolic around their body until they leave. Making these people feel bad about themselves is almost like doing a favor for the WvW community.

bhagwad.4281:

Fortunately I’ve met a lot of intelligent people who realize it’s a waste of time fighting in JPs. We just cautiously move around each other and we both benefit. Enemy or not, in the long run cooperation pays off.

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red. Meaning if their own teammates were red they would mindlessly go into a berserk rage and try to kill or die themselves. Can’t reason with these guys.

Unfortunately irrational people end up ruining it for those who are more sensible. Lots of us come to WvW just for the badges and we all benefit by getting what we want. In addition, killing someone actually has a pretty kittenty badge drop rate. The risk/reward ratio is extremely poor.

So for those who fight “just because it’s red”, consider that you’re being manipulated. You fight just because you’re told to fight. You say it’s a PvP map. So what? It doesn’t force you to do anything. If you feel compelled to be belligerent just because of a color…well then you’re a tool. It’s as simple as that.

So I’ve learnt that when I do JPs as a mesmer, I equip my focus and coolly pull off the ledge those who attack me. I’m not interested in killing them – not worth my time. They’re just annoyances to be gotten rid of when they come between me and my badges.

So please – don’t waste my time attacking me in JPs. Be a bit sensible and we’ll all get what we came here for without any pesky situations along the way.

Ahh yes….killing people in a pvp zone makes you a tool…..jumping to the top of a hill for a badge makes you a sensible, reasonable person who can’t be manipulated.

It’s in a PvP area with traps everywhere to gank/kill others. I don’t see anything wrong with it. Lmao good day.

kazi.6438:

I don’t attack other players in the JP by default. If someone is dumb enough to attack me, I kill them. If you’re even semi-skilled at WvW, it’s really easy to kill the trolls in the JP. They’re generally the people who weren’t good enough to get badges the old-fashioned way (straight-up combat). If there’s a group of them camping, party up with others who died to them and go wipe them. This isn’t rocket science.

Off-topic, but whenever I kill a JP camper or heartseeker thief, I /laugh and frolic around their body until they leave. Making these people feel bad about themselves is almost like doing a favor for the WvW community.

Actually the people in the JP are more than likely people who enjoy 1v1 or small group fights instead of zerging around WvW.

I do find it hilarious you insult people who kill others in the JP and saying they can’t get badges by being real men, yet you yourself are in the puzzle getting free badges by jumping up a puzzle. Hypocrite much?

kazi.6438:

They’re generally the people who weren’t good enough to get badges the old-fashioned way (straight-up combat).

Wait. So the people doing PvP in the jump puzzle (combat) to get badges aren’t doing it the old fashioned way (combat), but the clowns jumping around for 15 minutes not doing combat are doing it the correct, old fashioned way (combat)?

So if you’re there to jump you’re doing it right.
If you’re there to kill jumpers you’re doing it wrong.
If you’re there to kill the people who kill the jumpers you are again doing it right.

Is that correct?

bhagwad.4281:

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red.

Wait what? Oh snap! Oh burn! You are jumping in a jumping puzzle because Anet tells you to, you are using a mesmer portal for portaling because Anet tells you.. See what I did there, Mr. Tool?

If only there was free server transfers still going on I would totally jump on the enemy server just to gank you and the rest of these silly pve heroes who qq here. The sweet, sweet tears of silly pvers :>

FrouFrou.4958:

bhagwad.4281:

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red.

Wait what? Oh snap! Oh burn! You are jumping in a jumping puzzle because Anet tells you to, you are using a mesmer portal for portaling because Anet tells you.. See what I did there, Mr. Tool?

If only there was free server transfers still going on I would totally jump on the enemy server just to gank you and the rest of these silly pve heroes who qq here. The sweet, sweet tears of silly pvers :>

I do the jumping puzzles to benefit myself. I profit from it. So “being a tool” doesn’t apply here. When you try and foolishly kill someone just because of a color when you can just as easily lose and get no benefit whatsoever, that makes you a tool.

And let’s stop pretending that those who attack others in JPs are some 1v1 beasts. I’m r30 myself in PvP – if I don’t manage to pull you off a ledge, I’m just as willing to leave you on your back. But it’s waste of time and I’d rather not do it. Because I don’t do anything with no benefit to myself.

Hmm yes wise words, war makes us so fickle.

You were manipulated into thinking a legendary was worth something.

JP give blueprints to those who complete it.

kill enemies -> less siege to deal with
also: enemies in JP -> less enemies to deal with on the map

Be happy that they waste their time in JP and capture their towers. You gain badges, karma, xp and silver for doing it.

Btw: Legendary wielders always get targeted first in WvW

Today I was bored and decided to torment the jp mesmers on top of the puzzle. I’m sure a few of them got really frustrated having to redo the entire thing multiple times. Good fun.

All I can say on the subject is….

bhagwad.4281:

FrouFrou.4958:

bhagwad.4281:

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red.

Wait what? Oh snap! Oh burn! You are jumping in a jumping puzzle because Anet tells you to, you are using a mesmer portal for portaling because Anet tells you.. See what I did there, Mr. Tool?

If only there was free server transfers still going on I would totally jump on the enemy server just to gank you and the rest of these silly pve heroes who qq here. The sweet, sweet tears of silly pvers :>

I do the jumping puzzles to benefit myself. I profit from it. So “being a tool” doesn’t apply here. When you try and foolishly kill someone just because of a color when you can just as easily lose and get no benefit whatsoever, that makes you a tool.

And let’s stop pretending that those who attack others in JPs are some 1v1 beasts. I’m r30 myself in PvP – if I don’t manage to pull you off a ledge, I’m just as willing to leave you on your back. But it’s waste of time and I’d rather not do it. Because I don’t do anything with no benefit to myself.

Ah but the thing is, you’ve been tricked by anet into thinking JP rewards are worth anything. BoH for Legendary? Pffff, 5 minutes in photoshop and I’ll get you something that looks cooler. Siege plans? Rather useless if you don’t wvw.

Now why do we kill people? Same reason why people play video games really, for the fun of it. The prestige of racking up those player kills (a progression that is as meaningful as sPvP rank to some people). The thrill of smashing your enemy into oblivion and inflating your e-ego. It’s obvious different people are going to derive different benefits and experiences from the same feature, but in the end, all that matters is the enjoyment.

Addressing OP’s point, “peace” is never suppose to be preserved in a PvP map. Peace is detrimental to your server’s glory, giving enemies free badges and siege plans. Peace should be broken and invaders kicked off the JP in the most humiliating ways possible. Peace only exists when all the red is dead. PvE QQers trying to get legendary in easy mode can go QQ more.

Opc.4718:

bhagwad.4281:

FrouFrou.4958:

bhagwad.4281:

Those who fight in JPs are pretty much tools of Anet. They fight….because Anet tells them to. Because the other guy is red.

Wait what? Oh snap! Oh burn! You are jumping in a jumping puzzle because Anet tells you to, you are using a mesmer portal for portaling because Anet tells you.. See what I did there, Mr. Tool?

If only there was free server transfers still going on I would totally jump on the enemy server just to gank you and the rest of these silly pve heroes who qq here. The sweet, sweet tears of silly pvers :>

I do the jumping puzzles to benefit myself. I profit from it. So “being a tool” doesn’t apply here. When you try and foolishly kill someone just because of a color when you can just as easily lose and get no benefit whatsoever, that makes you a tool.

And let’s stop pretending that those who attack others in JPs are some 1v1 beasts. I’m r30 myself in PvP – if I don’t manage to pull you off a ledge, I’m just as willing to leave you on your back. But it’s waste of time and I’d rather not do it. Because I don’t do anything with no benefit to myself.

Ah but the thing is, you’ve been tricked by anet into thinking JP rewards are worth anything. BoH for Legendary? Pffff, 5 minutes in photoshop and I’ll get you something that looks cooler. Siege plans? Rather useless if you don’t wvw.

Now why do we kill people? Same reason why people play video games really, for the fun of it. The prestige of racking up those player kills (a progression that is as meaningful as sPvP rank to some people). The thrill of smashing your enemy into oblivion and inflating your e-ego. It’s obvious different people are going to derive different benefits and experiences from the same feature, but in the end, all that matters is the enjoyment.

Addressing OP’s point, “peace” is never suppose to be preserved in a PvP map. Peace is detrimental to your server’s glory, giving enemies free badges and siege plans. Peace should be broken and invaders kicked off the JP in the most humiliating ways possible. Peace only exists when all the red is dead. PvE QQers trying to get legendary in easy mode can go QQ more.

At least legendary rewards are tangible. You can show them off to someone. “Prestige” of racking up player kills is unverifiable. There’s no way for another person to objectively tell how many people you’ve killed.

I wish “fun” was enough of a motivation for me. It’s not. I want tangible rewards. “Server glory” is as illogical as patriotism. I mean, what exactly are you feeling proud about? Who cares which server wins? How do I personally benefit from what my server does? I destroy all siege plans as soon as I get them since they just waste inventory space.

When I do something, I like to get something out of it. “Fun” is just one component. So by all means, try and kill me when doing the JP. Just realize that you have an equal chance of getting killed and to tell the truth I’m not even interested in killing you – just pushing you off the ledge so that I can continue my way to the badges.

You will be nothing but an annoyance. And you’re doing no favors to yourself. Like I said earlier, irrational people spoil it for the rest of us. Fortunately for me I have the tools to brush you off.

P.S: Just yesterday I was attacked by a thief and a warrior at the same time in the JP. Thief also popped thieves guild. I pulled both of them off the ledge and got two badgesl I wasn’t expecting that since my drop rate for badges when killing people in WvW is horrible.

Now THAT’s an idea. Give me a guaranteed badge drop for killing players and I just might think it worth my while to finish you off when you attack me in the JP instead of just removing you from my vicinity.

bhagwad.4281:

I destroy all siege plans as soon as I get them since they just waste inventory space.

Please at least just port to your base and drop the siege plans for your servermates who do care about WvW.

Johje Holan.4607:

bhagwad.4281:

I destroy all siege plans as soon as I get them since they just waste inventory space.

Please at least just port to your base and drop the siege plans for your servermates who do care about WvW.

I thought of doing that yesterday, but they were all soulbound. I can’t even give them away.

There should be a thread called “How to lure Carebears into the jp”

bhagwad.4281:

Johje Holan.4607:

bhagwad.4281:

I destroy all siege plans as soon as I get them since they just waste inventory space.

Please at least just port to your base and drop the siege plans for your servermates who do care about WvW.

I thought of doing that yesterday, but they were all soulbound. I can’t even give them away.

If you double click it in your inventory like you’re going to deploy it but instead of deploying it, hit the little “drop” arrow next to your skill bar, it will drop it on the ground for someone else to pick up.

Johje Holan.4607:

bhagwad.4281:

Johje Holan.4607:

bhagwad.4281:

I destroy all siege plans as soon as I get them since they just waste inventory space.

Please at least just port to your base and drop the siege plans for your servermates who do care about WvW.

I thought of doing that yesterday, but they were all soulbound. I can’t even give them away.

If you double click it in your inventory like you’re going to deploy it but instead of deploying it, hit the little “drop” arrow next to your skill bar, it will drop it on the ground for someone else to pick up.

Hmm…ok. I’ll do that today.

bhagwad.4281:

At least legendary rewards are tangible. You can show them off to someone. “Prestige” of racking up player kills is unverifiable. There’s no way for another person to objectively tell how many people you’ve killed.

I wish “fun” was enough of a motivation for me.

If you are playing a game to “show off” that you’ve played a game enough hours to get a different set of non-existent pixels for your non-existent item, rather than for fun, you need to seek professional help.

But anyway, back to the OP, quite how PvP in a PvP zone ruins things is a mystery, if you don’t like PvP don’t enter WvW.

You’ll have to excuse me for getting carried away with all that hyperbolic language, “server glory” is a cheesy concept at best but it does exist. Certain hardcore wvwers DO care about winning, and server pride is just what it is. It’s as illogical as thinking virtual pixels in a game are in anyway a tangible reward. In the end, a legendary weapon or the fun you get from absolutely trouncing the enemy after a satisfactorily epic battle are just about equally tangible as each other in real life, except the time you spent on that epic battle will give you a warm fuzzy feeling and a crap load of fun.

You may feel the shiny legendary is your endgame, and finally attaining it will be achieving some sort of milestone. If that’s what gets you your thrills, okay. Other people get a kick out of winning wvw for their server. Or killing people. Half the fun is in the fight anyway, and if it was a well played duel even if I lost, I’ll be perfectly happy.
It might seem irrational, but then again wasting time on a legendary seems irrational to me too.

I really wouldn’t mind guaranteed badge drops, especially if it was established similar to the bonus xp system. Killing a player equal to or higher than your level nets you 1 badge minimum. The longer the player goes without being killed, the higher then chance of dropping additional badges. The xp system already awards you bonus xp for killing enemies and NPCs that haven’t been killed in a while since respawn.

More badges = more siege

P.S you delete siege, that is blasphemy.

Sylosi.6503:

bhagwad.4281:

At least legendary rewards are tangible. You can show them off to someone. “Prestige” of racking up player kills is unverifiable. There’s no way for another person to objectively tell how many people you’ve killed.

I wish “fun” was enough of a motivation for me.

If you are playing a game to “show off” that you’ve played a game enough hours to get a different set of non-existent pixels for your non-existent item, rather than for fun, you need to seek professional help.

But anyway, back to the OP, quite how PvP in a PvP zone ruins things is a mystery, if you don’t like PvP don’t enter WvW.

WoW progression, what more do I have to say. There’s a whole market out there for these kinds of people

In the JPs, I tend to leave people alone so as to not waste my time and spend more time in the JP than I want to. I’d much rather be out in the wilderness killing people and taking points, but the JPs pay out badges (used for siege) and siege far too well to ignore. If someone attacks me or otherwise appears threatening, I will kill them, and I take great pleasure in getting into good fights with enemies and then throwing them off of cliffs. That said, if you spam emotes and try to avoid combat, I’ll leave you alone because I’d much rather not be there in the first place. This is exactly why I’ll take a portal whenever available, because it speeds it up so much and lets me get back to the really enjoyable part of WvW sooner.