Guild Wars 2

Retaliation needs harsh diminishing returns when it procs multiple times from a single skill and that’s all. That way you don’t destroy the viability of the boon for small to very small scale encounters and it doesn’t become stupid when using aoe multihit attacks against zergs.

Or it needs to be less effective when applying it to allies in WvW. (Such as shorter duration)

Axle.5182:

I have a guardian and my opinion is the damage aspect once the bl issue is fixed should be fine however it’s not the damage itself but the multiple sources from many players in a zerg that’s the killer the only professions and builds safe are those focused on single target DPS.

Single target Large Damage skills, of which Engineers have few.

stof.9341:

Retaliation needs harsh diminishing returns when it procs multiple times from a single skill and that’s all. That way you don’t destroy the viability of the boon for small to very small scale encounters and it doesn’t become stupid when using aoe multihit attacks against zergs.

That is where an internal cool down would be much more useful, even a 1 second cool down per opponent (as opposed to the boon-applied target) would make it much more balanced against most attacks, and still generate some DPS and some pressure to not attack with AoEs so aggressively.

Nokaru.7831:

Or it needs to be less effective when applying it to allies in WvW. (Such as shorter duration)

Being able to share boons is one of the cornerstones of the Guardian profession, and while in places like WvW it is a bit unbalanced to be facing a 40 person zerg all with Aegis, Stability, Retaliation, etc., I am not looking to destroy any profession or boons here.

I think the point of having the synergy of different professions that lead to good group dynamics is how ANet attempted to subvert and replace the “holy trinity,” and to some extent, this works in most modes of content. But the lack of scale advantage for some professions is most glaring in WvW, and while most folks are fine with some professions being a bit OP in server conflicts, the lower-end professions need some type of balancing advantage.

I mean, have you ever tried to KILL a decent Guardian in WvW? How many 3-v-1 videos need to be posted before everyone can agree they are a bit OP?

Handin.4032:

Just reading this thread reminds me so much of the older confusion threads, but kind of opposite. In the confusion threads, you had people saying “Nerf confusion, since the option not to attack is silly!”, and here you have people saying “If they have retal up, just don’t attack, it’s not OP”.

This is the only part of the thread that truly bothers me. The exact same arguments were used against Confusion, and the same arguments in its defense are being duplicated wholesale right here. Someone even brought out, “Have situational awareness”! Oh lord.

Why on earth were these arguments no good for Confusion but perfectly reasonable in this case?

shimmerless.4560:

Why on earth were these arguments no good for Confusion but perfectly reasonable in this case?

It’s just a common case of double-standards and bias.

Overall Confusion was stronger than Retaliation, although in some ways it was weaker. For instance, it’s easier to identify when you’ll be backlashed with Confusion (Condition on you) as opposed to Retaliation (Boon upon many). Confusion was powerful against almost every build; (and very overpowered against a few) Retaliation is mostly effective against most builds and very powerful against a good handful of builds.

Boon duration was not nerfed in WvW.

Boon guardians are just out of control. I have no idea why they didn’t nerf it like they did in spvp to make it balanced.

Any kind of balance done in spvp should be carried into wvw to make it more fun and balanced. And yes..they can do that without affecting pve.

XII.9401:

Boon duration was not nerfed in WvW.

Boon guardians are just out of control. I have no idea why they didn’t nerf it like they did in spvp to make it balanced.

Any kind of balance done in spvp should be carried into wvw to make it more fun and balanced. And yes..they can do that without affecting pve.

Stealth is more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp. Yet revealed is shorter in WvWvW.

Boon duration runes are more powerful in WvWvW, due often being able to share the boons with more allies and higher potential for combo field + blast finishers (I know you can solo the combo fields, but you cannot even compare with a controlled zerg). Not to mention boon duration consumables, which aren’t found in spvp/tpvp:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chocolate_Omnomberry_Cream

Yet boon duration runes work in WvWwW like in pve!

I simply fail to understand Arenanet’s logic. Probably there is NO logic.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Stealth is more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp. Yet revealed is shorter in WvWvW.
…
Yet boon duration runes work in WvWwW like in pve!
…
I simply fail to understand Arenanet’s logic. Probably there is NO logic.

These are not deliberate decisions. They have only recently split skills specifically for WvW. By default, they use their PvE equivalents.

Nokaru.7831:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Stealth is more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp. Yet revealed is shorter in WvWvW.
…
Yet boon duration runes work in WvWwW like in pve!
…
I simply fail to understand Arenanet’s logic. Probably there is NO logic.

These are not deliberate decisions. They have only recently split skills specifically for WvW. By default, they use their PvE equivalents.

I am pretty sure the stealth revealed changed was deliberate (and very unfortunate). It was 4 s for a while, then they reverted it back to 3 s without ever explaining why. Even a child can understand that stealth is not that powerful in spvp/tpvp, because the map is much smaller and you cannot contest points while being in stealth. In WvWvW stealth is extremely powerful.

But back to the topic:
I would be happy if retaliation would be changed in the following ways (all 3 must apply):
1. Retaliation scales with condition damage (makes more sense than tying almost everything to power, there is already too much synergy with consumables and PVT gear)
2. Retaliation does full damage, in other words the formula is:
198.45 + (0.075 * Condition Damage)
3. Retaliation can trigger only 5 times per second per attacker, no matter how many targets it affected.

With my version and assuming 2000 points in condition damage retaliation could 4×349 = 1745 damage per second. It would put considerable hurt on AoE spammers, but not be that overpowered hard counter, which is going to instant kill you. Rangers using barrage at a tightly packed enemy blob full of retaliation could get up to that 1745 damage/s, which is a lot, but they could at least cancel their skill. Grenade chucking engineers would still need to be careful as the grenades fly so slowly, but a grenadier wouldn’t generally take more than around 2000 dmg from retaliation/s.

My version would actually be more powerful than the current retaliation (with the nerf) against single target and fast attack e.g. warrior’s 100 blades or thief’s unload.

The icd on Retal needs to be much longer, i’d go for a full second. 5 procs per second still leaves fast-hitting attacks extremely kitten, and since all the advantages of fast-hitting attacks have been kitten and standerdized with slow-hitting attacks, there is no reason why this type of attack should be penalized so heavily.

The damage return on both type of moves, who both occupy their own end of an extreme spectrum, would be brought far closer together allowing for much more balanced number tweaking.
You can make Retaliation hit harder, meaning it would be less penalizing for fast-hitting attacks compared to how it is now, but much more viable against slow hitting attacks as the damage return is higher.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Nokaru.7831:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Stealth is more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp. Yet revealed is shorter in WvWvW.
…
Yet boon duration runes work in WvWwW like in pve!
…
I simply fail to understand Arenanet’s logic. Probably there is NO logic.

These are not deliberate decisions. They have only recently split skills specifically for WvW. By default, they use their PvE equivalents.

I am pretty sure the stealth revealed changed was deliberate (and very unfortunate). It was 4 s for a while, then they reverted it back to 3 s without ever explaining why. Even a child can understand that stealth is not that powerful in spvp/tpvp, because the map is much smaller and you cannot contest points while being in stealth. In WvWvW stealth is extremely powerful.

But back to the topic:
I would be happy if retaliation would be changed in the following ways (all 3 must apply):
1. Retaliation scales with condition damage (makes more sense than tying almost everything to power, there is already too much synergy with consumables and PVT gear)
2. Retaliation does full damage, in other words the formula is:
198.45 + (0.075 * Condition Damage)
3. Retaliation can trigger only 5 times per second per attacker, no matter how many targets it affected.

With my version and assuming 2000 points in condition damage retaliation could 4×349 = 1745 damage per second. It would put considerable hurt on AoE spammers, but not be that overpowered hard counter, which is going to instant kill you. Rangers using barrage at a tightly packed enemy blob full of retaliation could get up to that 1745 damage/s, which is a lot, but they could at least cancel their skill. Grenade chucking engineers would still need to be careful as the grenades fly so slowly, but a grenadier wouldn’t generally take more than around 2000 dmg from retaliation/s.

My version would actually be more powerful than the current retaliation (with the nerf) against single target and fast attack e.g. warrior’s 100 blades or thief’s unload.

I would agree with these changes. I mostly play a boon guardian, but it kitten es me off that I can’t use my greatsword #2 skill without losing half my health, it’s just no fun that way :P

The way to play atm is stack >= 50% guardians and kill by using water fields + blast finishers + retaliation

This is a learn to play issue to me. Never had trouble what so ever with retal.

Nokaru.7831:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Stealth is more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp. Yet revealed is shorter in WvWvW.
…
Yet boon duration runes work in WvWwW like in pve!
…
I simply fail to understand Arenanet’s logic. Probably there is NO logic.

These are not deliberate decisions. They have only recently split skills specifically for WvW. By default, they use their PvE equivalents.

They are deliberate and they are easily addressed. I think they are just too lazy to fix them in WvW till a lot of people start complaining, as usual.

MiLkZz.4789:

This is a learn to play issue to me. Never had trouble what so ever with retal.

Um have you ever tried grenading a zerg and got instantly owned by mutlipe unnerfed retaliation power and duration in WvW? Nope..guess some people need to learn about other classes instead of hiding in a zerg in WvW only, not in spvp or pve.

Retaliation should be like spvp. Plain and simple. You are only favoring the baddies relying on Op duration/pwr of the boon.

MiLkZz.4789:

This is a learn to play issue to me. Never had trouble what so ever with retal.

Warrior of [VcY], guild from RoS

<- Not surprised.

MiLkZz.4789:

This is a learn to play issue to me. Never had trouble what so ever with retal.

It’s a learn to play issue as in: do not use skills X, Y and Z or you will die against any guardian heavy group. That doesn’t really make for interesting game-play.

How about instead of Retaliation doing a set amount of damage per hit that is then modified by power, have it return a fixed percentage of damage taken, modified by power?

Could a 1 sec cooldown for the retaliation proc work?

Grove.2835:

Could a 1 sec cooldown for the retaliation proc work?

I think that’s too long honestly. Even a 0.2s internal cooldown would fix a lot of the issues with it.

Nokaru.7831:

Grove.2835:

Could a 1 sec cooldown for the retaliation proc work?

I think that’s too long honestly. Even a 0.2s internal cooldown would fix a lot of the issues with it.

It wouldnt fix the issue of fast-hitting attacks, as i’ve said before. The advantage of fast-hitters have been nerfed and normalized, that there is no reason why fast-hitting attacks should still be so heavily penalized against Retaliation. To the point that you inflict more pain on yourself then your enemy.

never had trouble with ret. i’ve 6 lvl 80 chars. dont know what you guys smoke.

as for op just learn to use other weapon than lb

XII.9401:

MiLkZz.4789:

This is a learn to play issue to me. Never had trouble what so ever with retal.

Um have you ever tried grenading a zerg and got instantly owned by mutlipe unnerfed retaliation power and duration in WvW? Nope..guess some people need to learn about other classes instead of hiding in a zerg in WvW only, not in spvp or pve.

Retaliation should be like spvp. Plain and simple. You are only favoring the baddies relying on Op duration/pwr of the boon.

Learn to strip boons and run a balanced guild group. And you think you could just stand in the back throwing out your stuff without expecting anything back? Keep an eye on your enemies buffs and then strike. I play p/p engi and flamethrower engi in WvW aswel. And didn’t had to much troubles with it. It hurts, but you hurt too.

Got to say bow rangers get utterly destroyed by retal ^^. But most bow rangers are terrible, terrible players. So they kinda deserve it.

XII.9401:

Boon duration was not nerfed in WvW.

Boon guardians are just out of control. I have no idea why they didn’t nerf it like they did in spvp to make it balanced.

Any kind of balance done in spvp should be carried into wvw to make it more fun and balanced. And yes..they can do that without affecting pve.

sorry but gotta disagree. using spvp balance in wvw is a bad idea in general. some things need to be fixed for spvp of course as certain traits in a 1v1 situation could almost 1 shot a person. wvw is different! i could never use my spvp build in wvw, as it is intended for 1 to 3 targets max.
phantasms die quickly in a zerg and with all the conditions and cc in wvw a lot of spvp builds arent as viable. and honestly, its ok to treat them differently as it is a complete different gameplay! it is a big mistake to treat wvw the same as spvp.
i mean look at the warrior in spvp and wvw…in spvp they get owned, but in wvw they are strong. in wvw u will need more toughness, more cleansers, more cc than in a small scale fight.

pve though should be treated differently anyways as most of the cc and conditions arent as viable as in pvp.

Look for the Fist Icon Boom, and don’t hit. I stack a lot of Toughness so their Ret doesn’t effect me as much as you’re mentioning. I just burn them down through it.

Crawford.4135:

Look for the Fist Icon Boom, and don’t hit.

Gotcha! Don’t AoE anyone until I’ve clicked every potential target.

Crawford.4135:

I stack a lot of Toughness so their Ret doesn’t effect me as much as you’re mentioning. I just burn them down through it.

Toughness doesn’t affect Retaliation damage at all. Sorry for ruining your placebo effect!

Nokaru.7831:

Crawford.4135:

Look for the Fist Icon Boom, and don’t hit.

Gotcha! Don’t AoE anyone until I’ve clicked every potential target.

Crawford.4135:

I stack a lot of Toughness so their Ret doesn’t effect me as much as you’re mentioning. I just burn them down through it.

Toughness doesn’t affect Retaliation damage at all. Sorry for ruining your placebo effect!

Hey, if you choose be be arrogant about it, you’re on your own. I don’t have problems with Ret off them. Continue being arrogant, it’ll get you really far in life /sarcasm

I’d rather be arrogant than completely wrong, but keep polishing that shining armor random fanboy with a Jon Peters quote in signature. When you hit level 80 and wake up out of whatever delusional happy land you live in, let us know how it goes.

I’m sure 12 stacks Confusion was worse^ IMO the only thing they had to change about confusion was maybe 10-15% dmg nerf and stop it proccing on absolutely everything, e.g. Dodges and attunement swapping. Same here, half or otherwise lessen amount of proccs, or make it so one person can’t take retal dmg from more than 2 sources at the same time.

Crawford.4135:

Hey, if you choose be be arrogant about it, you’re on your own. I don’t have problems with Ret off them. Continue being arrogant, it’ll get you really far in life /sarcasm

He’s completely right. Retaliation does a fixed damage value depending on the user that cast the boon (or maybe the one that is buffed) only. This damage value ignores everything about you and is directly substracted to your HP with no way to prevent it.

Also, it’s stupid to expect people to see if a zerg has lots of retaliation because it’s a zerg, the visual effect for retaliation is NOT clearly visible at range in a mass like that and you for sure aren’t clicking on everyone to see if they have the boon up.

Again, they need to fix it to a set percentage of damage, dependent on how much damage you do to the opponent. Meaning burst attacks are going to get retaliated hard, and those with weaker attacks (those who hit for under 300 damage to their foes) aren’t going to get wiped out by something that is doing more damage than they are.

iCryptik.1496:

Protip: It’s not up 24/7. It’s up for 5-7 seconds max every 24 seconds with traited, and a few more seconds if they run greatswords.

TL;DR: Watch their boons.

Protip: You’re giving terrible advice.

7 seconds every 24 seconds = 29% retaliation uptime.

Are you really suggesting that someone doesn’t attack someone for nearly 30% of the fight?

You must lose fights all the time if you think this is a valid strategy.

‘Sure let me just stand here and do nothing for 7 seconds while you wail on me.’

Retaliation obviously needs a major overhaul in WvW – either a cooldown, damage over time limit or it needs to scale linearly with the damage received.

My god! Retaliation is completely overpowered! I mean when I cast meteor shower into an organised group with good retaliation uptime all I see is those ticks constantly eating away at my health forcing me to use my healing skill, ether renewal which heals for quite a lot actually and also removes all my conditions with low cooldown cost. Oh GOD! Ether renewal is OP! But wait Meteor Shower hits for 4k’s about 20 times per cast. Wow. OP! But then again the enemy will have regeneration boon as well, which is – needless to say – silly overpowered. I mean the fact that half the damage I do gets taken away makes me not want to attack that target anymore. Oh wait. Attack? What am I even thinking? Using my skills to kill an opponent is way overpowered!
They should just remove all skills in the game altogether and armor too because some armor just looks too intimidating for me to want to attack.

Guild Wars 2 is OP! Nerf it please!

Its true though, in wvw zergs i usually pop SYG (ima guardian) and wirldwind away in a zerg. Critting for 4-8k on lots of targets, dealing 80k+ damage with 1 button, killing myself in the process IF retaliation is up on the enemies lol.

Im usualy forced to abort wirling wrath before it ends :/

Terrahero.9358:

The icd on Retal needs to be much longer, i’d go for a full second. 5 procs per second still leaves fast-hitting attacks extremely kitten, and since all the advantages of fast-hitting attacks have been kitten and standerdized with slow-hitting attacks, there is no reason why this type of attack should be penalized so heavily.

The damage return on both type of moves, who both occupy their own end of an extreme spectrum, would be brought far closer together allowing for much more balanced number tweaking.
You can make Retaliation hit harder, meaning it would be less penalizing for fast-hitting attacks compared to how it is now, but much more viable against slow hitting attacks as the damage return is higher.

This is the exact same solution that I came up with. +1

Lyndis.2584:

I am a ranger.

I use a longbow. (Which is terrible enough as it is.)

I used barrage.

Retaliation ate through 8k HP. And that’s not just bad timing, these guardians spamming group retal have this up 24/7.

Wtf? That’s half my health bar. Even 100% confusion before nerf wasn’t this terrible.

Now, imagine Engineers with FT or Grenades: 1 strike = selfkill, lol
ANet – professionals, sure ^^

Well when you come up with a build, dont tell anyone. Look what happened to condition mesmer, and the upcoming bm ranger build. It goes mainstream then people call nerf and then the class is ruined and you gotta find another build.

Sandra Martino.3870:

Its true though, in wvw zergs i usually pop SYG (ima guardian) and wirldwind away in a zerg. Critting for 4-8k on lots of targets, dealing 80k+ damage with 1 button, killing myself in the process IF retaliation is up on the enemies lol.

Im usualy forced to abort wirling wrath before it ends :/

If you use gs – increase your hp pool, it help’s sometimes.

Guys don’t refer to Flamethrowers/Whirlwind in arguments, unless to state the far that they’re broken as far as proccs are concerned; they need to be changed to procc a lot less.

Also once again ICD is a heavy handed and clumsy solution that in this situation creates more problems than it solves. Change it so one person can only take retal dmg from 2 sources or under; that way Guardian’s ranged effectiveness doesn’t get shafted, and we get a 60% dmg reduction on AoE skill use in zergs. That should do it tbh, cept for some skills like Nades/Flamethrower/Whirlwind/Feedback, the latter shouldn’t really procc, and the others either need a half in procc count (not dmg done ofc) or a ‘multi-projectile finisher’ style effect, so that each procc only has a 20% chance to occur.

Sound good?

Immolator.5640:

Also once again ICD is a heavy handed and clumsy solution that in this situation creates more problems than it solves.

Such as?

An ICD solves AoE retal returning nuts amounts of damage, it solves fast-hitting attacks being turned into suicide attacks, it allows normalized Retal damage that would make it more effective against slow-hard-hitting attacks.

What kind of problems would it cause that it outweigths that?

Terrahero.9358:

Immolator.5640:

Also once again ICD is a heavy handed and clumsy solution that in this situation creates more problems than it solves.

Such as?

An ICD solves AoE retal returning nuts amounts of damage, it solves fast-hitting attacks being turned into suicide attacks, it allows normalized Retal damage that would make it more effective against slow-hard-hitting attacks.

What kind of problems would it cause that it outweigths that?

Destroying Guardian’s ranged effectiveness – try catching a Thief spamming ranged at you, espec. Unload, without any good retal. On top of that if you get 2 thieves doing the same thing, you’re doubly screwed. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t really fast and our ‘ranged’ weapons can’t hit for the world, the only one which can has just over greatsword range and does ~200dmg per hit maybe. Rapid-fire ranged attacks in general do need to have some counter from Guardians, else you can just completely destroy them with anything @ 900 range. Try to find a solution that doesn’t shaft guardians plz.

Immolator.5640:

Terrahero.9358:

Immolator.5640:

Also once again ICD is a heavy handed and clumsy solution that in this situation creates more problems than it solves.

Such as?

An ICD solves AoE retal returning nuts amounts of damage, it solves fast-hitting attacks being turned into suicide attacks, it allows normalized Retal damage that would make it more effective against slow-hard-hitting attacks.

What kind of problems would it cause that it outweigths that?

Destroying Guardian’s ranged effectiveness – try catching a Thief spamming ranged at you, espec. Unload, without any good retal. On top of that if you get 2 thieves doing the same thing, you’re doubly screwed. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t really fast and our ‘ranged’ weapons can’t hit for the world, the only one which can has just over greatsword range and does ~200dmg per hit maybe. Rapid-fire ranged attacks in general do need to have some counter from Guardians, else you can just completely destroy them with anything @ 900 range. Try to find a solution that doesn’t shaft guardians plz.

I love how everybody keeps ignoring the one suggestion I have given that is actually good.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Again, they need to fix it to a set percentage of damage, dependent on how much damage you do to the opponent. Meaning burst attacks are going to get retaliated hard, and those with weaker attacks (those who hit for under 300 damage to their foes) aren’t going to get wiped out by something that is doing more damage than they are.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Immolator.5640:

Terrahero.9358:

Immolator.5640:

Also once again ICD is a heavy handed and clumsy solution that in this situation creates more problems than it solves.

Such as?

An ICD solves AoE retal returning nuts amounts of damage, it solves fast-hitting attacks being turned into suicide attacks, it allows normalized Retal damage that would make it more effective against slow-hard-hitting attacks.

What kind of problems would it cause that it outweigths that?

Destroying Guardian’s ranged effectiveness – try catching a Thief spamming ranged at you, espec. Unload, without any good retal. On top of that if you get 2 thieves doing the same thing, you’re doubly screwed. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t really fast and our ‘ranged’ weapons can’t hit for the world, the only one which can has just over greatsword range and does ~200dmg per hit maybe. Rapid-fire ranged attacks in general do need to have some counter from Guardians, else you can just completely destroy them with anything @ 900 range. Try to find a solution that doesn’t shaft guardians plz.

I love how everybody keeps ignoring the one suggestion I have given that is actually good.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Again, they need to fix it to a set percentage of damage, dependent on how much damage you do to the opponent. Meaning burst attacks are going to get retaliated hard, and those with weaker attacks (those who hit for under 300 damage to their foes) aren’t going to get wiped out by something that is doing more damage than they are.

Only cos I wasn’t talking to/quoting you m8 :P

I think that’s a decent solution that could work, as could what I put forward; happy with either, not ICD, as everyone is so happy to scream about. As long as at the end of the day I can still play my Guardian properly and not be at a complete disadvantage as my enemy can actually move, then I’m fine.

I also use Longbow and my question is:
If you use barage, do you just stand there and watch the retal kill you? or do you automatically dodge/move (that stops barage immediately btw) and heal yourself a bit? Because the last one works for me.

agnofinitra.6791:

I also use Longbow and my question is:
If you use barage, do you just stand there and watch the retal kill you? or do you automatically dodge/move (that stops barage immediately btw) and heal yourself a bit? Because the last one works for me.

I use mostly valkire and didnt care, and with new 250 vit bonus i can use barrage everywhere without fear

RyuDragnier.9476:

Again, they need to fix it to a set percentage of damage, dependent on how much damage you do to the opponent. Meaning burst attacks are going to get retaliated hard, and those with weaker attacks (those who hit for under 300 damage to their foes) aren’t going to get wiped out by something that is doing more damage than they are.

Immolator.5640:

Destroying Guardian’s ranged effectiveness – try catching a Thief spamming ranged at you, espec. Unload, without any good retal. On top of that if you get 2 thieves doing the same thing, you’re doubly screwed. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t really fast and our ‘ranged’ weapons can’t hit for the world, the only one which can has just over greatsword range and does ~200dmg per hit maybe. Rapid-fire ranged attacks in general do need to have some counter from Guardians, else you can just completely destroy them with anything @ 900 range. Try to find a solution that doesn’t shaft guardians plz.

Agreed – it is fair that guardians are compensated in some way for retalation being changed. Perhaps adding or extending the Protection boon when they apply retaliation to themselves (-33% damage is rather over powered in itself – but i’m sure someone will bring that up in another thread).

The scaling damage to the incoming attack damage is probably the best fix for now.

I would say the scaling retalation damage might actually be a buff to guardians because people would be reluctant to use their most powerful burst attacks on guardians because retaliation would now hurt them more than it used to. Example: Eviscerate from an axe warrior would now cause reasonable damage to warrior whereas previosuly it would only be a mosquito bite of damage returned – so a warrior would think twice before Eviscerating now.

I have been known to spam Unload on guardians and it really hurts (even though you can see the boon is there – sometimes you have no choice but to fight and I don’t always have the choice to switch to dagger/pistol if it is on cooldown). I think it rather silly that I get 8 times the punishment for using Unload (8 small hits – causing significantly less total damage) over Backstab (1 large hit – more total damage).

So let’s say retaliation gets modified to return 15% of the damage output.

So if I Backstab you for 10k I get damaged 1.5k damage.
If I Unload on you for 5k I get 750 damage.
If an Engie drops grenades into a zerg and causes 20k damage he takes 3k damage.

I would say currently with the way retaliation is I get about 25% to 50% of my damage returned on an Unload (depends on the guardian’s stats) and on my Backstab the damage returned is something around 3%. I barely notice retaliation when I use my dagger – which is wrong because they are significantly more damaging to the guardian.

The alternative is that I switch to sword/dagger and steal all your boons for myself – then you’d have no retaliation or protection and you would be easy meat given how slow you are. I just prefer to play the weapons I like and fix broken boons – rather than switch to a weapon set that will make boon reliant professions easy kills. It is always an option though if they don’t fix retaliation.

Immolator.5640:

Destroying Guardian’s ranged effectiveness – try catching a Thief spamming ranged at you, espec. Unload, without any good retal. On top of that if you get 2 thieves doing the same thing, you’re doubly screwed. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t really fast and our ‘ranged’ weapons can’t hit for the world, the only one which can has just over greatsword range and does ~200dmg per hit maybe. Rapid-fire ranged attacks in general do need to have some counter from Guardians, else you can just completely destroy them with anything @ 900 range. Try to find a solution that doesn’t shaft guardians plz.

You said it would cause more problems then it fixed, all you come up with was “my guardian will get destroyed by 2 Thieves who happen to be using pistols”. Join the club of Everybody.
And just how would Retal stop them anyway when they just switch to their S/D and steal it anyway…
Guardians have more means to deal with ranged then most professions anyway.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I love how everybody keeps ignoring the one suggestion I have given that is actually good.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Again, they need to fix it to a set percentage of damage, dependent on how much damage you do to the opponent. Meaning burst attacks are going to get retaliated hard, and those with weaker attacks (those who hit for under 300 damage to their foes) aren’t going to get wiped out by something that is doing more damage than they are.

Because this wouldnt do jack about AoE retaliation returning crazy amounts of damage. Unless the damage return was so absurdly small. I’ll refer back to Grenades, its all AoE attacks but also used on single-target enemies.
In order for AoE hits, which can return upto 15x Retal from a single attack, to not destroy the Engineer the hits have to be very low.
But these weapons are also used on single-targets, then the damage return from Retal would be abysmal.

Or the damage return is actually decent from a single-target, and then we still blow ourselfs up against AoE retal. Nothing is fixed then.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

Agreed – it is fair that guardians are compensated in some way for retalation being changed.

Dont even start with “fair”. Retaliation isnt a Guardian exclusive, and they have a ton more tools. What happend to compensation for Mesmers and Engineers when Confusion was completely gutted?

ICD and buffed damage, Retaliation will be much more usefull overall, especially against slower-hitting enemies without destroying certain builds with a passive boon.

DanyK.3842:

Considering this is mostly thieves wanting to nerf guardians

Funny, most complains I saw in this thread come from rangers and engineers and I saw few thieves really complain about it. I even saw a guardian or two complain.

stof.9341:

DanyK.3842:

Considering this is mostly thieves wanting to nerf guardians

Funny, most complains I saw in this thread come from rangers and engineers and I saw few thieves really complain about it. I even saw a guardian or two complain.

Your signature… it tells everything about you! :P

Mesmers can get 18 seconds of retaliation if you are traited with Illusionary Persona and Confusing Cry, and they can boon share.

DanyK.3842:

stof.9341:

DanyK.3842:

Considering this is mostly thieves wanting to nerf guardians

Funny, most complains I saw in this thread come from rangers and engineers and I saw few thieves really complain about it. I even saw a guardian or two complain.

Your signature… it tells everything about you! :P

Bah, I haven’t played seriously my thief in ages :p

TBH it’s mostly my engineer that complains about retaliation too, my thief doesn’t care much.