Guild Wars 2

WvWvW reward system must incorparate a DAOC type reward system.

All 5 man groups get a 25% increase in WvWvW points. (aka realm points)

A rank 1 rated toon is worth 100 points. If the player is killed by 10 people who damaged him, they will recieve the points reative to the % of damage done.

Example: I solo and rank 1 person. I get 100 points
5 people kill the rank 1 person. I did 55% of the damage. I get 55 points
20 peopel kill the rank 1 person. I did 4% of the damage. I get 4 points

5 man partys get a 25% bonus only if under 10 people damage the target.

As you rank up your value is higher. Example: rank 5.5 = 155 points.

Thanks,

Malf

Reduce run speed based on how many people are nearby. So, if you “zerg” with 30+ people, you are essentially doing the walk animation. You are no longer a group, you are an army. And, in an era with trebs and cats, armies walked…slowly.

Small groups can still hit and run. Well, maybe not run, but jog…I mean, you should at least wait for your friends.

So, you propose to ruin the fun of all these people who love to play together as a zerg? Including as well big WvW guilds and all those community created large scale events.

Let me respectfully to disagree

Honestly,
While I prefer small group play as well,

But I think the zerg has a lot of purpose, and I think the better way to deal with the situation is to give more incentive to do things is small groups, as opposed to giving less incentive to do things in zergs.

Easiest way to combat a zerg is taking one of their towers back using only 5 people. Shows that you can do more with less. Seems to me like zergs only happen because people simply don’t want to get killed, and farm karma.

If you alter a bonus to 5 man groups… then folks will just adjust and there’ll be 10- 5 man groups… that’s still be 50 peep zerg.

The only questionable solution perhaps is NPC super mobs… like the worm in EB.

Think Aggro circle… the more folks that are together, that aren’t inside a tower or keep,…the bigger the circle gets until it attracts every NPC ugly on the map. Two or three like the ‘worm’ all hitting a zerg at the same time would be one epic fight… with little time for pvp.

That assumes Devs would be willing to add several to every map… not just EB.

IComeInPeace.1768:

WvWvW reward system must incorparate a DAOC type reward system.

All 5 man groups get a 25% increase in WvWvW points. (aka realm points)

A rank 1 rated toon is worth 100 points. If the player is killed by 10 people who damaged him, they will recieve the points reative to the % of damage done.

Example: I solo and rank 1 person. I get 100 points
5 people kill the rank 1 person. I did 55% of the damage. I get 55 points
20 peopel kill the rank 1 person. I did 4% of the damage. I get 4 points

5 man partys get a 25% bonus only if under 10 people damage the target.

As you rank up your value is higher. Example: rank 5.5 = 155 points.

Thanks,

Malf

i see were you are going with this but a simple who did the most damage gets more credit will not work imo. That just screws the support guys. Support do not get enough of their just dues as it is.

if 2 groups come head on at each other say 20 each. team X has all dps builds and team Y has some support and bunker builds mixed in to push, I will put my money on team Y every time.

i don’t want a system that will cause all the support guys re spec or leave. I like those guys giving me those stacks of might,stability, regen and more.

There is something in RL that we call physics… and GW2 don’t have a good one.

collision model…

I think the speed debuff is a great idea. If too many people are in the same area, they all get dubuffed to a walk, which would be like marching in close order. I had suggested something similar a while back: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/A-different-way-to-help-with-culling-in-WvWvW/first#post1221544

Easy way to fix zergs- remove the aoe limit. Then there will be a disadvantage to running in a mindless zerg (and advantages too for the more skilled) and some tactics might come back into wvw.

Making people move slower would just be a joke when you think of what it would do to class mechanics, etc

Not true, to move faster, youd just move out of the debuff radius, thus spreading out, thus reducing the bunch up of zergs.

Woaden.9425:

I think the speed debuff is a great idea. If too many people are in the same area, they all get dubuffed to a walk, which would be like marching in close order. I had suggested something similar a while back: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/A-different-way-to-help-with-culling-in-WvWvW/first#post1221544

In theroy it does sound good but it would ruin any GvG battles that guilds do atm unless it didnt kick in till was at least 30+ on a side or had a very small radius to effect ppl in which would make it pointless in most cases if you were 5 v 30

The one thing that they’re thinking of nerfing, AoE. Remove the cap.

EnRohbi.2187:

Honestly,
While I prefer small group play as well,

But I think the zerg has a lot of purpose, and I think the better way to deal with the situation is to give more incentive to do things is small groups, as opposed to giving less incentive to do things in zergs.

This is the answer. I really don’t see much reward or incentive for healing people, support classes, or defense. There is less loot in it, less badges, and less glory.

Why would anyone who only cares about themselves and loot do any of the above?

I don’t get your guys obssession with stamping out the zerg. Any system that you put into place that rewards one or the other is just asking to be gamed.

What does the government do when it goes to war….send an ARMY (IE ZERG!)

What does the government do when it needs to carry out a special mission….send a special force team (IE 5-10 man groups).

Yes, even real life cannot fix zerging….Why? More people = higher chance to get things done. There is a situation that calls for zerging and a situation that calls for 5-10 man groups. Time to learn that it will never go away.

I mean I understand why you guys like small groups so much. I cannot lie and say I do not, but you cannot sit there and fault zergs.

In small man groups, it is very easy to tell how you contributed.

In a zerg, it’s not as noticable but in fact you really did. This gives you less satisifaction than a small group.

If you’re in a very well coordinated steam-rolling guild than you may not feel a since of “man I am really good”, but more of a “wow guys, we completely demolished that zerg!”. It’s a different feeling.

I suggest joining a very coordinated group. You know, one that requires people to run with a certain build and fullfill a certain role in that zerg. And I think you may find yourselves liking zerging even more.

The suggestions are all off. The is no problem with large fights but there is a lack of smaller fights.

First, in DAoC you weren’t capping forts all the time. Much of the time was fooling around just fighting in Emain or wherever. The maps are too small for this, they focus/funnel players too much.

You didn’t need rewards either, people fought because it was fun.

Anyways, I’d do something similar to what Planetside 1 had. Another area for smaller battles that provided various bonuses for your empire. It would be where the groups and the well geared soloers would go to have competitive fights that affected WvW. As is, you can’t really remake the current WvW maps.

[edit: I also think 5 man grps here are lazy. In DAoC, we’d roam all over for quite a long time search for good fights. We’d avoid zergs with scouting info and seek out the other groups for some epic fights or hit the zergs on the flanks when they fought other zergs. Basically, don’t think you should just get instant fights and rewards just because you 5-man]

…..or you can take two smaller group focused guilds that have experience and their commanders, run them together as an experienced zerg to destroy the mindless ones.

This is gw2, not daoc. If you want daoc so much, go back there and leave this playerbase alone.

IComeInPeace.1768:

WvWvW reward system must incorparate a DAOC type reward system.

All 5 man groups get a 25% increase in WvWvW points. (aka realm points)

A rank 1 rated toon is worth 100 points. If the player is killed by 10 people who damaged him, they will recieve the points reative to the % of damage done.

Example: I solo and rank 1 person. I get 100 points
5 people kill the rank 1 person. I did 55% of the damage. I get 55 points
20 peopel kill the rank 1 person. I did 4% of the damage. I get 4 points

5 man partys get a 25% bonus only if under 10 people damage the target.

As you rank up your value is higher. Example: rank 5.5 = 155 points.

Thanks,

Malf

You do realize this would spell the end for support & bunker builds?
DPS is favored way too much here, there’s more to the battle system than killing things quickly.

want to get rid of zergs , go SPVP. You aren’t going to take towers and keeps with 5-10 people. You want small scale combat, again go SPVP.

ower.9143:

want to get rid of zergs , go SPVP. You aren’t going to take towers and keeps with 5-10 people. You want small scale combat, again go SPVP.

Huh,
All those towers I took with 5 man groups must have been a hallucination…

Guyz i have read all these spam ideas and i think they ALL SUCK. The only thing that can be done is add collision between players and that will answer to your problems. Just think about it and you ll see it works. (like warhammer)

EnRohbi.2187:

ower.9143:

want to get rid of zergs , go SPVP. You aren’t going to take towers and keeps with 5-10 people. You want small scale combat, again go SPVP.

Huh,
All those towers I took with 5 man groups must have been a hallucination…

yeah cool, you took a tower during off peak with no defense. proud of you. I am sure your server sings your l33t praises.

ower.9143:

EnRohbi.2187:

ower.9143:

want to get rid of zergs , go SPVP. You aren’t going to take towers and keeps with 5-10 people. You want small scale combat, again go SPVP.

Huh,
All those towers I took with 5 man groups must have been a hallucination…

yeah cool, you took a tower during off peak with no defense. proud of you. I am sure your server sings your l33t praises.

Maybe he did it primetime but you were so busy with your Zerg you never noticed? It happens.

But on the other hand you have a point. Large forces are infact needed and will lead to some of the best fights. Although I would go with more incentives for small-mid group play rather than decentives for playing in a zerg. (As someone above suggested)

Ubi.4136:

Reduce run speed based on how many people are nearby. So, if you “zerg” with 30+ people, you are essentially doing the walk animation. You are no longer a group, you are an army. And, in an era with trebs and cats, armies walked…slowly.

Small groups can still hit and run. Well, maybe not run, but jog…I mean, you should at least wait for your friends.

I like this idea a lot.

Zerging is caused by players not wanting to lose. What will happen is everyone splits off in there 5 man grps. team A brings there 5 but team B doesn’t wanna lose so they bring 6. Grp A goes screw this and brings 7. ect ect

Also world Pop.

Only reason peeps QQ about zergs is cus they dont win. Find a guild that works well with each other and you will start to hav fun as u smash the mindless sheep.

KinkyWarrior.1879:

ower.9143:

EnRohbi.2187:

ower.9143:

want to get rid of zergs , go SPVP. You aren’t going to take towers and keeps with 5-10 people. You want small scale combat, again go SPVP.

Huh,
All those towers I took with 5 man groups must have been a hallucination…

yeah cool, you took a tower during off peak with no defense. proud of you. I am sure your server sings your l33t praises.

Maybe he did it primetime but you were so busy with your Zerg you never noticed? It happens.

But on the other hand you have a point. Large forces are infact needed and will lead to some of the best fights. Although I would go with more incentives for small-mid group play rather than decentives for playing in a zerg. (As someone above suggested)

That was actually also me that suggested it.

Small group play has plenty of use right now,
You just need to be much more coordinated and experienced in wvw so you know where to go and what to do. So people hop into wvw and find themselves completely lost in anything but a zerg.

The zerg is useful, it shouldn’t go away, there should just be more incentive to do things in smaller groups.
There is absolutely no reason why wvw should have to be so limited in your choices, they can make a purpose for both large and small groups.

I wouldn’t be opposed to something similar to this. Instead of points for killing other players, I think it should be points for capturing towers/keeps/etc.

For example, if 30 players capture a tower then the point reward for capturing it should be less than if there were only 10 capturing it. Of course, sometimes you need 30 people to capture a tower so the penalty for having so many players should be offset by the amount of defenders present during the “repel enemy attackers” objective. So if 30 players are attacking a tower and 30 are defending it, there should be no points deduction. In contrast, if only 10 attackers manage to capture a tower with 20 defenders then there should actually be a point bonus.

Not sure if the bonus or deductions should be permanent or have a countdown, but it would certainly make having a zerg to capture towers and keeps much less appealing. If it were permanent for as long as a team holds a tower, it would add the extra strategy of prioritizing which towers to defend since losing a tower that gives 20 points each tally would make defending a tower giving only 5 points less favorable. It’s all helpful nonetheless since capturing a tower means points for you and none for your opponents, it’s just that it might not boost your score as much.

There’s also the option of having a countdown for the bonus/deductions. If a server can successfully hold a tower for say 30min then there should be no reason for that tower giving less points than what’s standard since they’ve proven they can keep it. I’d suggest having a countdown only for point DEDUCATIONS since a tower with a bonus to points would be incentive for players to stop zerging and defend that tower/keep for the extra points. The countdowns should be lower for towers and higher for keeps (1.5hr?) and SM (3hrs?) so on night caps when there’s fewer defenders their score won’t improve as much.

The actual bonus/deducation should be calculated by the amount of players who get credit for the “Assault [tower/keep]” objective in relation to the amount of players failing the “Defend [tower/keep]” objective. The “repel enemy attackers” objective should come into play as well since a lot of players tend to leave.

Supply camps should remain the same since no one seems to mind a zerg there just trying to cut some supplies for barely any points. It’s a good choice if they’re planning a nearby attack, but it starts to get counter-productive after a while.

Best way to keep people from wanting to do smaller battles, thus likely dying more often but still having a lot of fun.. is getting rid of the REPAIR COSTS in WvW.

Then people won’t be scared to not zerg. (Though you still die and incur repair costs in a zerg.. it’s a lot less often.) No costs would remove the “fear.”

Victory.2879:

Easy way to fix zergs- remove the aoe limit. Then there will be a disadvantage to running in a mindless zerg (and advantages too for the more skilled) and some tactics might come back into wvw.

Making people move slower would just be a joke when you think of what it would do to class mechanics, etc

Yeah. I agree. Massed artillery really did in those giant formations armies used to make in the old days. Generals around the world saw what happened in Europe and, over-time, adjusted their tactics.

Straegen.2938:

Regardless of whether zerging is fun or not, it is game breaking to an extent. The system culls and lags in these situations. Clearly GW2 was never designed to handle this type of play.

To reduce zerg game play ANet needs to do a few things:

1. Reduce bag drops for running in a zerg. If a player is damaged and killed by more than a dozen players in some fixed time period nobody gets a bag. Currently zerging is one of the most profitable forms of WvW play.

2. Give WvW points based on how long a position was held rather than when the clock resets. Currently GW2 rewards offense far more than defense.

3. Do not allow damage AoE to stack. IMO there is nothing wrong with AoE itself but having 20+ players mindlessly spam AoEs causes all sorts of issues for the game engine. Would also mostly remove choke points in the game which are often stopped not by skill but by one team getting bored.

Just my opinion.

Number 2 is an absolutely excellent idea.

Sounds like you guys should just do tPvP, no zergs or mass combat there.

Really though, if you do not enjoy large group play then join a lower population realm.

Creative! In theory that sounds great; but in practice… well there’s a mess of things that would have to be sorted out to in order to pull that off.

Zerging has too many benefits in the current structure of WvW.

Bloody Zac.8960:

Straegen.2938:

…
2. Give WvW points based on how long a position was held rather than when the clock resets. Currently GW2 rewards offense far more than defense.
…

Number 2 is an absolutely excellent idea.

OMG! could someone with good lenguage and wisdom create another thread in suggestions and wvw subforums so that devs read this?
it would make wvw soo much more interesting. can’t believe this is not ingame yet

KinkyWarrior.1879:

ower.9143:

EnRohbi.2187:

ower.9143:

want to get rid of zergs , go SPVP. You aren’t going to take towers and keeps with 5-10 people. You want small scale combat, again go SPVP.

Huh,
All those towers I took with 5 man groups must have been a hallucination…

yeah cool, you took a tower during off peak with no defense. proud of you. I am sure your server sings your l33t praises.

Maybe he did it primetime but you were so busy with your Zerg you never noticed? It happens.

But on the other hand you have a point. Large forces are infact needed and will lead to some of the best fights. Although I would go with more incentives for small-mid group play rather than decentives for playing in a zerg. (As someone above suggested)

doubtful since I don’t run with a zerg, try again.

Why would you want to join a map designed for epic 50 on 50 battles if you don’t want to engage in epic 50 on 50 battles? sPvP has 8 vs 8. And even though WvW is epic there is plenty of oppurtunity for surgical strikes with smaller groups. If the problem is hordes of 50 capping everything in their path backcap them with a group of ten and lay siege to one of their forts with a group of 40.

I’ve reconsidered my position- Zerg is inevitable and here’s why.

If you aren’t 80 with full exotics/legendary… your life expectancy is in seconds… I don’t care what your class/skill is… in a ‘fair’ fight. Almost nobody is up for that kind of consistent punishment.

I’m not.

I logged in and jumped on my 36 Ele… and got nailed over and over again by SoR… 3-4K hits; I could 1-2 hits with dodge and boost, and then I’m down. Mist… avoid for another couple seconds… and then I’m staked… 5 second fights!?

Unless I’m running with a zerg with plenty of others who can either share the damage or protect me to some extent… there’s almost no reason to even bother.

The game has progressed to ‘that’ point. If Wv3 can’t appeal to the new player… then it’s destined for a niche player and a definite continual decline.

People keep misinterpreting why the current “zerg” is bad, and ideas such as this which aim to fix the “bad zerg”. 50 people vs 50 people is fantastic, we all want that.

What we don’t want, and what is exacerbated by the culling issue, is the “clump” of players.

People keep using the example of real life armies being a “zerg”. Yes, they are a mass of troops. What they are not, is 50 soldiers taking up the space of 5 soldiers.

As some have rightly pointed out, a lot of this would be solved by player model collisions, but as we all know, that would cause more problems than solve, and we all know that cant/wont happen, so how else do we discourage people from being “shoulder to shoulder” or in fact occupying the same dang point time and space?

It is THAT behavior that ideas like this are trying to resolve, and that behavior will not be curbed by lifting the AOE limit. It was not curbed when AOE had a higher limit, it just meant two large invisible armies of 30-50 people each clumped in a 10 meter radius firing AOE, which needs to stop.

It can’t be stopped by player action (ie, just aoe), this has been proven, it needs to be discouraged with passive buffs/debuffs which direct people to spread out.

This would still result in a large 50 vs 50 battle, but this battle would not occur with two silly balls of players that can’t render each other, it would occur spread across a GASP battle field.

A zerg is a mindless ball of players. Add coordination and leadership its an army. Fixed.

Dhar.6392:

I’ve reconsidered my position- Zerg is inevitable and here’s why.

If you aren’t 80 with full exotics/legendary… your life expectancy is in seconds… I don’t care what your class/skill is… in a ‘fair’ fight. Almost nobody is up for that kind of consistent punishment.

I’m not.

I logged in and jumped on my 36 Ele… and got nailed over and over again by SoR… 3-4K hits; I could 1-2 hits with dodge and boost, and then I’m down. Mist… avoid for another couple seconds… and then I’m staked… 5 second fights!?

Unless I’m running with a zerg with plenty of others who can either share the damage or protect me to some extent… there’s almost no reason to even bother.

The game has progressed to ‘that’ point. If Wv3 can’t appeal to the new player… then it’s destined for a niche player and a definite continual decline.

It’s that way in pretty much every game mode in every mmo. I’ve played serveral mmos. In any of them if you get jumped by 5 or more people you are toast unless you are a tank. A 36 elementist; the class with the lowest base armor and hp in a WvW isn’t a great example. If you see a fight you know you will lose run until you find the numbers to meet theirs. Or avoid them altogether. At 36 the only thing you would need from WvW is kills for the monthly which you can do on any character. If it’s your first character you should fully explore the story mode and do map completions for the armor and crafting material rewards.

AOE spam makes people spread out. If they don’t spread out you pile as much aoe as you can on the stack then single target those with the lowest hp. Or fire a ballista bolt through the pack since it’s piercing and I believe it can hit up to 50 targets like any other siege. You can set up ballistas really fast.

A debuff that forces people to spread out would be bad for melee.

Then there are abilities like the guardians staff 5 and other wall abilities that discourage bunching up.

Then there are wells and the mesmers reflect dome ability.

Then there is the necromancers ability that spreads all conditions from a single target to all nearby targets.

50 people in a square with a side length of about 15 norn widths charging headlong into a group of people. Do what the Russians did to the Germans in WW2 when they were blitzed. Let your center fall back and encircle keeping your ranged safe while exposing theirs? Once you seperate their ranged from their melee do a pincer on the melee? If they go into stealth you counter by going into stealth?

Guys, what I see is that most of you have never been part of a large organised group. Are you going to call the Red Guards guild 25 men group a mindless zerg?! Eh….

Being part of a large organised group fighting against another one is the greatest fun in WvW. It takes much more skills compared to small groups though. I suppose you just don’t know that yet. Hopefully you will someday and this will change your mind pretty quickly.

Btw, being a part of one of the several large organised groups fighting in coordination against several big guilds from the other servers is the best experience I have ever had in gaming

Cheers!

Instead of giving boons to the 5 closest people, give boons in an order:
- people in party who are in range first
- people in squad who are in range second
- people closest to you , if still not 5 people have got your buff.

Would also help in running with full speed for guild groups… not loosing one who didnt get speed because an ally you passed got the buff

JudgeDredd.9865:

Zerging is caused by players not wanting to lose. What will happen is everyone splits off in there 5 man grps. team A brings there 5 but team B doesn’t wanna lose so they bring 6. Grp A goes screw this and brings 7. ect ect

Also world Pop.

Only reason peeps QQ about zergs is cus they dont win. Find a guild that works well with each other and you will start to hav fun as u smash the mindless sheep.

Agreed, zerg busting is the way forward. Leave your pre/cri/pow builds at home and team up with 10-15 of your guildies and charge into a 50-man zerg. You will die, alot, but it is oh so satisfying when you get the hang of it.
The zerg is dumb, slow and panics real easy.

Mizu.9387:

JudgeDredd.9865:

Zerging is caused by players not wanting to lose. What will happen is everyone splits off in there 5 man grps. team A brings there 5 but team B doesn’t wanna lose so they bring 6. Grp A goes screw this and brings 7. ect ect

Also world Pop.

Only reason peeps QQ about zergs is cus they dont win. Find a guild that works well with each other and you will start to hav fun as u smash the mindless sheep.

Agreed, zerg busting is the way forward. Leave your pre/cri/pow builds at home and team up with 10-15 of your guildies and charge into a 50-man zerg. You will die, alot, but it is oh so satisfying when you get the hang of it.
The zerg is dumb, slow and panics real easy.

Actually this is no longer true. Anyone can wipe a PUG zerg.

But on the higher tier servers the zerg is smart. It is usually made up of 25-30 members of the same guild. These groups are almost indestructible (because of tactics and game mechanics) except by another big guild zerg.

This is why zerging is having such a negative impact on the game.

The only way to win now is to join a large guild to zerg, or follow it. It has almost completely crowded out sustainable small group play.

And that, my friend, sucks bad.

when the ranking system is brought in their should be proportionate rewards based on the number of people that have contributed to the death of an opponent. It should be evened out away from damage though to encourage support builds.

I also like the new definition of a zerg as 30 people, 20-30 people is guild vs guild territory. fair enough you can get a zerg of 30 people by the definition that they are running aimlessly and collecting up to just bash against a common objective but the game does so much to penalise guild wvw groups as it is that their shouldn’t be any witch hunt implementations to further hamper them as frankly your servers wvw guilds are your anti zerg utility.

lol smart zergs dont excist.
A zerg means a very large force of weak soldiers. So a force that wins by numbers

BTW most guild groups that do GvG of that size ignores solo enemy players or small groups, because they want to hit an enemy zerg (60+) or other guild groups