Guild Wars 2

So after reading the “GvG ranger” thread i thought why not make a thread about the other stepchild of WvW zerging, the engineer. What needs to be changed or improved to make the engi good at zerging, frontline, blackline or ganksquad. What needs to be done to make pubcommanders and GvG leaders want engineers in their group?

Edit: I took a long break, almost one year. So if the engi was actually good at zerging at one point I dont know it.

Engineer will never be ~Guardian or ~Warrior for zerging, but the same goes for other proffessions.
I’m not zerging fan, but I’m pretty decent with builds.
Basically there are 3 choices: Heavier damage granadier backline (something like 6-2-0-4-2), frontline dps tank with bombs, and frontline tank with bombs (2-0-6-4-2). Flamethrower is just not in in terms of damage, support and cc.

Frontline DPS tank with flamethrower. Don’t leave it out considering the upcoming changes.

While viable the engi will likely never be optimal for a large group fight. The good news is nobody cares in a zerg as long as you are durable. GvG is an entirely different discussion though.

Simple, give him a hammer.

I heard zerglings die easy to fire.

2 water fields. AoE condition cleanses. AoE bomb heals. AoE stability. AoE direct and/or condition damage. Multiple blast finishers………. If an engineer is not thriving in the zerg, it is the fault of the player for running a bad build for the situation and/or playing badly in the situation. The profession itself has all the tools avaliable.

stability, stability, stability ……

play guard or war, use stability, log on engi, see the lack thereof, laugh, go back to gaurd / war. hell, even eles, mesmers and necros have far more stability then engis, multi-fold.

coglin.1867:

2 water fields. AoE condition cleanses. AoE bomb heals. AoE stability. AoE direct and/or condition damage. Multiple blast finishers………. If an engineer is not thriving in the zerg, it is the fault of the player for running a bad build for the situation and/or playing badly in the situation. The profession itself has all the tools avaliable.

am sorry man, but if you ever played engi, then guard or war, and realize just how miniscule the things you mentioned are available to you vs the other professions, you will hit yourself on the head.

engis stability and condi removal are a joke, they would need to increase the durations by a lot and lower the CDs, also by a lot. maybe 3 fold or so on both counts to be either considerable, not even on par.

Both frontline bombs and condi nades are viable for gvg. Never, ever go flamethrower unless you wanna die to retal.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Never, ever go flamethrower unless you wanna die to retal.

Sounds like bad player/build tbh since the same retal problem occurs with grenades.

Chaba.5410:

Quick Mouse.7635:

Never, ever go flamethrower unless you wanna die to retal.

Sounds like bad player/build tbh since the same retal problem occurs with grenades.

Both have problems with retal, however significantly more so with flamethrower because the 1 skill procs more retal (up to 50 procs) and you have to be much closer (425 range vs 1500), meaning you will probably be taking more damage from other sources as well. Also if you’re running flamethrower you’ll want to take deadly mixture, so you probably won’t have backpack regenerator like you would with grenades.

Tongku.5326:

coglin.1867:

2 water fields. AoE condition cleanses. AoE bomb heals. AoE stability. AoE direct and/or condition damage. Multiple blast finishers………. If an engineer is not thriving in the zerg, it is the fault of the player for running a bad build for the situation and/or playing badly in the situation. The profession itself has all the tools avaliable.

am sorry man, but if you ever played engi, then guard or war, and realize just how miniscule the things you mentioned are available to you vs the other professions, you will hit yourself on the head.

I have leveled all 8 professions in WvW and I regularly command on Jade Quarry with those three professions, choosing which ever one I am in the mood for. I generally use my engie a large portion more then the other 2. I disagree. Perhaps I play my engie different then you do, or it is my build, or personal preference, I dunno. If your not capable of enjoying it, then do not use it.

Tongku.5326:

engis stability and condi removal are a joke, they would need to increase the durations by a lot and lower the CDs, also by a lot. maybe 3 fold or so on both counts to be either considerable, not even on par.

Fumigate removes 5 conditions off of 5 friendlies on a 12s cool down. If you consider that a joke, then you have a skewed expectation as far as I am concerned.

It doesn’t seem as if the profession fits how you want to play it in a large battle zerg vs zerg. That doesn’t mean it is bad or needs a change simply to suit what you want to do with it.

You really shouldn’t run them in organized large group. They can fit in 20v20 as gank with their condi pressure or as a single target nuke with Rifle SD builds but realistically that only works if the enemy is already preoccupied and isnt boon sponging. Would be nice if engies had a boon strip or conversion outside of elixirs and mine…but that’s not going to happen any time soon.

TexZero.7910:

You really shouldn’t run them in organized large group. They can fit in 20v20 as gank with their condi pressure or as a single target nuke with Rifle SD builds but realistically that only works if the enemy is already preoccupied and isnt boon sponging. Would be nice if engies had a boon strip or conversion outside of elixirs and mine…but that’s not going to happen any time soon.

Lot’s of guilds run engis in 20v20 as frontline w/ bombs. Never heard of any in a gank.

Quick Mouse.7635:

TexZero.7910:

You really shouldn’t run them in organized large group. They can fit in 20v20 as gank with their condi pressure or as a single target nuke with Rifle SD builds but realistically that only works if the enemy is already preoccupied and isnt boon sponging. Would be nice if engies had a boon strip or conversion outside of elixirs and mine…but that’s not going to happen any time soon.

Lot’s of guilds run engis in 20v20 as frontline w/ bombs. Never heard of any in a gank.

They work better as a gank than a front line imo. The have immense single target lockdown, to have them as a frontline with bombs is rather silly when they have rather limited stability and stun breaks.

Why do you think you need an engie for the stabilitt? We have other professions for that. But the duel point blank water fields, multiple forms of AoE condition removal and AoE healing is ideal for the front lines in a proper build for it.

They could make Toss Elixir B less clunky for some reliable stability. The new Engie changes may help as well.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Chaba.5410:

Quick Mouse.7635:

Never, ever go flamethrower unless you wanna die to retal.

Sounds like bad player/build tbh since the same retal problem occurs with grenades.

Both have problems with retal, however significantly more so with flamethrower because the 1 skill procs more retal (up to 50 procs) and you have to be much closer (425 range vs 1500), meaning you will probably be taking more damage from other sources as well. Also if you’re running flamethrower you’ll want to take deadly mixture, so you probably won’t have backpack regenerator like you would with grenades.

Speaking as someone who has run a flamethrower build in both GvG and open field melee train, I can assure you that the worst of your problems isn’t the retal, which can be mitigated even without backpack regenerator. That said, the way retal procs on a few of these multi-hit skills does need addressing. (And 50x procs, that’s wrong. FT #1 cone is limited to 3 targets, assuming those targets even get hit for the full 10×. It’s quite comparable to each grenade in Grenade Barrage proccing off 5 targets each.)

@OP . every class can go full tanky ( gear and build ) and survive inside a zerg “ball” . synergies create the survivability for heavies , so you must follow the same logic .

Top zerging classes: warrior, guardian, ele, necro
Average zerging classes: mesmer, engineer, thief, ranger

Top solo roaming classes: mesmer, engineer, thief, ranger
Average solo roaming classes: warrior, guardian, ele, necro

Working as intended. Anet have already explained their reasoning behind this.

Deli.1302:

Anet have already explained their reasoning behind this.

Did they? Where?

This couldn’t be easier actually. Log out, roll a warrior, grab a hammer.

play an elixir gun healing build. It works ok in zerg :P Though I have to say the 3 weapons it has are usually for defensive/escape purpose. Most people use kits and it makes it hard to control when the big fight starts and you can’t find your mouse pointer to swap kits XD

BBMouse.6510:

play an elixir gun healing build. It works ok in zerg :P Though I have to say the 3 weapons it has are usually for defensive/escape purpose. Most people use kits and it makes it hard to control when the big fight starts and you can’t find your mouse pointer to swap kits XD

clicker ! :P

Engi’s are great fun to play in zergs with FT and elixir gun (rocket boots a MUST). Rifle or pistol/shield is more of a personal choice, arguments for and against both. The biggest nerf was when they screwed over condition removal when your health dropped below the threshold.

This build is designed to get in the face of the support eles and necros – people will run away from fire or notice the confusion stacks and stop their castings. You might not kill much but disrupting the back lines means the GWEN is missing vital parts and you contribute to your side’s victory. Blast into the back lines on your boots (picking up retal on the way through), cause chaos, rocket boot back out. Positioning is everything.

Build fairly tanky, -condi duration food.

Grenades will get you killed pretty fast although can be useful to switch to for scaring people on walls, etc.

Engi aoe is a suicide thx to the retail. Single target things are waste of time. You lock down 1 enemy while others kill a whole zerg. Gg

One day when Anet realise that retal is a problem they will fix it, until then playing engi well will be too hard for the majority of the ‘spam 1’ brigade. Of course any decent engi knows better than to throw their aoe into the front of the enemy zerg. Leave the tanky auto healing types to your blob and concentrate on ruining their eles and necros.

Baldrick.8967:

until then playing engi well will be too hard for the majority of the ‘spam 1’ brigade.

Grenades and bombs are pretty easy these days for the “spam 1” brigade. This must be why the flamethrower doesn’t get much love. It isn’t friendly to spamming 1. Oh I can picture the lulz already when more people try FT after that dmg increase gets patched in.

Answer for the OP: there’s quite a few old threads in the engineer sub-forum regarding how retal proc’s on flamethrower, grenade barrage, and a few other non-engineer skills. To make engineer good/better at zerging, fix that issue.

Here, dug up one of the old posts: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Retaliation-is-a-real-handicap-to-our-class

I’m still levelling my engi atm, so can’t speak for how they perform in zergs. I’m more wondering if all classes SHOULD perform equally well in large groups.

Take guardians and thieves for example. Guardians are fantastic for groups, sure they can run solo but they’re clearly designed to support other players without a huge amount of effort, and have a great amount of choice in how they can do that without sacrificing that much overall. Thieves are the opposite: very self reliant with loads of options in that regard, but you have to build completely to get good group support.

I actually like the variety between the classes and the fact they have their own strengths, and unfortunately that means that there will always be a statistical best choice for X. Does that mean you can’t zerg on your thief or engi? Or roam on your guardian or necro? No, and as long as you enjoy doing it then it doesn’t much matter.

TLDR: Zerging might not be your thing when compared to other classes, but it’s not the end of the world. Just play to your strengths instead; if you can’t facetank the frontliners, go kill the squishy stuff at the back.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Chaba.5410:

Quick Mouse.7635:

Never, ever go flamethrower unless you wanna die to retal.

Sounds like bad player/build tbh since the same retal problem occurs with grenades.

Both have problems with retal, however significantly more so with flamethrower because the 1 skill procs more retal (up to 50 procs) and you have to be much closer (425 range vs 1500), meaning you will probably be taking more damage from other sources as well. Also if you’re running flamethrower you’ll want to take deadly mixture, so you probably won’t have backpack regenerator like you would with grenades.

Using flamethrower will melt the person from retal. I’m entirely in agreement here. I had a lone engie try to FT me through a gate while I was on a ram and he killed himself from my retal in seconds.

Fix retal. Really easy to kill yourself before you even realize whats happening.

Krookz.9420:

Fix retal. Really easy to kill yourself before you even realize whats happening.

It’s not like it is anti brainless AoE spam mechanic.

Krookz.9420:

Fix retal. Really easy to kill yourself before you even realize whats happening.

They did. It was nerfed by 33% in WvW. Even I only dole out 260 retal per tick, but if someone insists on using a flamethrower on me without realizing I have retal up, it’s not my fault that they melt themselves. It’s like saying “fix reflection” when you’re the one firing at someone in Dagger Storm or someone who’s using missile deflection or fired off a leet ele or mesmer skill at a mes using feedback or a guard’s reflect wall.

Fix the way you play. There’s nothing wrong with retal.

Mayama.1854:

So after reading the “GvG ranger” thread i thought why not make a thread about the other stepchild of WvW zerging, the engineer. What needs to be changed or improved to make the engi good at zerging, frontline, blackline or ganksquad. What needs to be done to make pubcommanders and GvG leaders want engineers in their group?

Edit: I took a long break, almost one year. So if the engi was actually good at zerging at one point I dont know it.

It’s been said multiple times, engi’s suck because grenades have that throw delay and can easily be reflected.

But the engi’s biggest problem is retal.
3 grenades * 5 targets = getting potentially hit by retaliation 15 times every throw!
Flamethrower auto-attack has the same problem, it ticks causing the engi to kill himself.

If you look @ spvp, those builds are also avoided because the engi will end up killing himself.

It’s stupid, ANET needs to fix it and they probably wont…

Deli.1302:

Top zerging classes: warrior, guardian, ele, necro
Average zerging classes: mesmer, engineer, thief, ranger

Top solo roaming classes: mesmer, engineer, thief, ranger
Average solo roaming classes: warrior, guardian, ele, necro

Working as intended. Anet have already explained their reasoning behind this.

Pretty spot on though warriors is actually a very good roaming class.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Krookz.9420:

Fix retal. Really easy to kill yourself before you even realize whats happening.

They did. It was nerfed by 33% in WvW. Even I only dole out 260 retal per tick, but if someone insists on using a flamethrower on me without realizing I have retal up, it’s not my fault that they melt themselves. It’s like saying “fix reflection” when you’re the one firing at someone in Dagger Storm or someone who’s using missile deflection or fired off a leet ele or mesmer skill at a mes using feedback or a guard’s reflect wall.

Fix the way you play. There’s nothing wrong with retal.

Yes except retaliation is almost if not permanently on when zerging, its not dmg a retal tick daels that needs the nerf, but the skills that cause retal to proc idiotically, specially on something like an auto-attack.
Your post is like telling the engi “grab popcorn and watch”

LostBalloon.6423:

idiotically, specially on something like an auto-attack.

I hope you realize that you can and should turn off the auto-attack on FT #1. Despite the issue of skills not being balanced around WvWvW zergs (this isn’t just a retaliation issue), there are learn-to-play tricks to not kill yourself.

Chaba.5410:

LostBalloon.6423:

idiotically, specially on something like an auto-attack.

I hope you realize that you can and should turn off the auto-attack on FT #1. Despite the issue of skills not being balanced around WvWvW zergs (this isn’t just a retaliation issue), there are learn-to-play tricks to not kill yourself.

Yes of course, but then you become totally useless yet again in the zerg, or end up doing something worse than what some other class can offer. The engi as it currently is does not have his place in the zerg.

LostBalloon.6423:

Chaba.5410:

LostBalloon.6423:

idiotically, specially on something like an auto-attack.

I hope you realize that you can and should turn off the auto-attack on FT #1. Despite the issue of skills not being balanced around WvWvW zergs (this isn’t just a retaliation issue), there are learn-to-play tricks to not kill yourself.

Yes of course, but then you become totally useless yet again in the zerg, or end up doing something worse than what some other class can offer. The engi as it currently is does not have his place in the zerg.

That doesn’t really have anything to do with the way retaliation procs on certain skills, which would alleviate the problem of spamming FT #1. Engineer was never meant to be a specialist like the other classes. His only specialty is diversity. And engineer kits were never really meant to replace the main weapon, but supplement them, which is why FT was always used more for utility than damage.

LostBalloon.6423:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Krookz.9420:

Fix retal. Really easy to kill yourself before you even realize whats happening.

They did. It was nerfed by 33% in WvW. Even I only dole out 260 retal per tick, but if someone insists on using a flamethrower on me without realizing I have retal up, it’s not my fault that they melt themselves. It’s like saying “fix reflection” when you’re the one firing at someone in Dagger Storm or someone who’s using missile deflection or fired off a leet ele or mesmer skill at a mes using feedback or a guard’s reflect wall.

Fix the way you play. There’s nothing wrong with retal.

Yes except retaliation is almost if not permanently on when zerging, its not dmg a retal tick daels that needs the nerf, but the skills that cause retal to proc idiotically, specially on something like an auto-attack.
Your post is like telling the engi “grab popcorn and watch”

My post is not like anything, it’s says exactly what I meant: don’t pop FT on me through a gd door when I have retal up and not expect to melt. I didn’t say anything about zerging or the like. Don’t forget also that when zerging retal effects everyone, not just engineers, and if someone is, say, dumb enough to open up an ice bow #4 on a 20+ zerg, they deserve to melt. I still maintain that it’s a l2p issue.

Its not just ft. Toss a f4 with the extra grenades at a stacked zerg your group is about to roll. 6-8 grenades retal off 20+ people and you die instantly.

It’s an anti-aoe mechanic, and it exists for a reason. L2P.

It’s more of an anti-multi-hit mechanic.

Yes, because everything just hits once ever.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Yes, because everything just hits once ever.

“Multi-hit” refers to how many times a skill puts out (or procs?) damage. Not every multi-hit skill has a PBAoE mechanic and not every PBAoE skill has a multi-hit component.

For example, warrior rifle Volley does direct damage 5x against a single target. Aegis would block the first hit from Volley while Retaliation would proc the remaining hits. A multiple target AoE skill like Mark of Blood (assuming no Greater Marks trait) only hits once. That single hit can be blocked with Aegis and no retaliation would even proc, theoretically.

Well…think it out.

Problems with engis in zerg play:

1. More limited access to stability. Guardians have SyG and traited courage, warriors have balanced stance and / or doylak sig. Engis basically have elixir x, which isn’t actually a bad skill for zerging, but if you want to actually use the elixir form, it’s best in the mid / end phases of the battle when you can catch more players that don’t have stability. So basically you waste most of the effect to get stability in the opening. It also has a much longer cool down than the heavy skills.

2. Lack of stun breaks. Healing mist from elixir gun is basically the only non-suck one that is usable in zerg play.

3. More questionable traits. Heavies have great group traits for zerg combat…engis, not so much. They do have some great personal defense traits though, and traits to enhance the bomb kit in particular if you want to roll with the front line.

4. Harder to play than a heavy. This is largely a subjective comment, but it is harder to play a 2 or 3 kit engi in the thick of battle than a guardian for sure in my experience. You don’t have the panic buttons like shelter and RF to feign death when you’re otherwise screwed, or the massive personal sustain that AH provides.

Things engis have going for them:

1. Bomb 1 is actually a pretty strong spam 1 skill. Higher base damage and power scaling than heavy hammers, and twice the radius (traited). Big ol’ Bomb is also a whopper hit. Combined with a rifle and getting good hits with jump shots, it’s really good damage. All the other bomb skills are also useful.

2. Decent selection of support skills like fumigate, a small and micro water field., and multiple blast (up to 5 depending on the build).

So basically engis are a niche class that need the right party to be viable and effective. Most pug zergs don’t use them for that reason, but some guilds do use them in their raids, and they can be a very effective asset.

zen.6091:

Well…think it out.

Problems with engis in zerg play:

1. More limited access to stability. Guardians have SyG and traited courage, warriors have balanced stance and / or doylak sig. Engis basically have elixir x, which isn’t actually a bad skill for zerging, but if you want to actually use the elixir form, it’s best in the mid / end phases of the battle when you can catch more players that don’t have stability. So basically you waste most of the effect to get stability in the opening. It also has a much longer cool down than the heavy skills.

2. Lack of stun breaks. Healing mist from elixir gun is basically the only non-suck one that is usable in zerg play.

3. More questionable traits. Heavies have great group traits for zerg combat…engis, not so much. They do have some great personal defense traits though, and traits to enhance the bomb kit in particular if you want to roll with the front line.

4. Harder to play than a heavy. This is largely a subjective comment, but it is harder to play a 2 or 3 kit engi in the thick of battle than a guardian for sure in my experience. You don’t have the panic buttons like shelter and RF to feign death when you’re otherwise screwed, or the massive personal sustain that AH provides.

Things engis have going for them:

1. Bomb 1 is actually a pretty strong spam 1 skill. Higher base damage and power scaling than heavy hammers, and twice the radius (traited). Big ol’ Bomb is also a whopper hit. Combined with a rifle and getting good hits with jump shots, it’s really good damage. All the other bomb skills are also useful.

2. Decent selection of support skills like fumigate, a small and micro water field., and multiple blast (up to 5 depending on the build).

So basically engis are a niche class that need the right party to be viable and effective. Most pug zergs don’t use them for that reason, but some guilds do use them in their raids, and they can be a very effective asset.

I dont really think its subjective more micro managing playing 3kit engi its def require more effort to try get the same results as heavies. As you stated engi dont really have the oh kitten moves to save them when kitten hits the fan. Main reason to take an engi in zerging would be fun factor. They are still viable for zerging just not the optimal choice.

Give all classes the hammer so they’re all able to join the hammer trains, not just warriors and guardians.