Guild Wars 2

I run a 15-20 man skill group with about 9-13 heavies depending on the group size with the rest ranged. We usually dont have much trouble wiping groups that are 30-40 man sized grouped, especially pugs. The only thing we have had trouble with lately is countering 30-40 man groups that run 20-30 melee. Specific guilds actually that just run enormous melee together. It seems impossible to counter as by the 3rd or 4th push we’ve only wiped out 10 people in their zerg while their entire melee train is still alive. Theres no way in hell we can push into the melee train with our melee, as we all get melted instantly. Slowing down the melee train with cripple and chill does work for a bit and gives us time to do other things but its still not enough. 20-30 melee, especially guardians, have an enormous amount of healing and dps, and health.

At that point, you do need a few more numbers but equally as important you need to start considering extreme counter-melee necro builds. 2 words: Blind Wells.

Drop an arrow cart.

one thing we have tried when were stuck on a wall is rotating plague forms on each push which helps us get past most the train. but it only last so long.

SkylightMoon.1980:

I run a 15-20 man skill group with about 9-13 heavies depending on the group size with the rest ranged. We usually dont have much trouble wiping groups that are 30-40 man sized grouped, especially pugs. The only thing we have had trouble with lately is countering 30-40 man groups that run 20-30 melee. Specific guilds actually that just run enormous melee together. It seems impossible to counter as by the 3rd or 4th push we’ve only wiped out 10 people in their zerg while their entire melee train is still alive. Theres no way in hell we can push into the melee train with our melee, as we all get melted instantly. Slowing down the melee train with cripple and chill does work for a bit and gives us time to do other things but its still not enough. 20-30 melee, especially guardians, have an enormous amount of healing and dps, and health.

Wiping any coordinated group twice your size is going to be generally unrealistic unless your group has jedi-like skills. That you’re still engaging on the 3-4th pass instead of kiting for cooldowns indicates that’s not the case.

Any experienced guild group twice your size will be extremely difficult to beat. They have double the everything you do, healing, total damage output, condition removal and application. Their cooldowns are up twice as fast as yours for major skills (effectively). The only way to beat them is to force/trick them into doing something stupid. I know a few tricks for that but they only work once on each group usually, and I’m not really gonna explain them either. ;p

Get 20 thiefs, scatter around and pull enemies out of train and burst them down one by one. Seriously there just isn’t any magic trick if enemy isn’t bad. Some kind of ranged group could work or you just need to try burst some part of train down, heal and attack again before they have time to ress. It’s probably doable if your players are smart and flexible, but some German style “we all follow commander and dodge same time zerg” just doesn’t work.

Your ele is not doing a good job if your train can be disrupted. Also chuck in a necro in the frontline

Unsteady ground, frozen ground, static field, meteor shower. If they dodge through unsteady ground or static field (knowing melee, they will), they’ll be out of dodge rolls for the first few heavy-hitting ranged attacks. Frozen ground to limit their speed to catch up/gap-close and sit in AoEs, and meteor shower while you have the chance to just mess with them, since they’re all stuck anyways. Any condition remover to try to avoid the mass of effects just thrown at them, including stun-removal, just strips their defenses. Gap-closers expended, stun-removal gone, condition-removal gone, you can just kite them. Alternatively, they’re out of dodge rolls and used one of their three precious movement abilities, meaning they’re already at a disadvantage to have it used on them again. Or (far less likely) they took the stuns, took the damage, took the slow, and now are easy pickings.

Your ele’s job is more than just killing with fire. A cc is not only crowd control when it hits – forcing them to dodge or remove its effects opens them to subsequent cc’s by removing their defenses. (Even going around a circle on the ground splits the party, as very few trains are so coordinated to always pick the same side to go around a circle; a split party means less attacks on the same target, so your own melee has a chance to survive.)

Same tactic to take down a survival stack. Just keep your distance and AoE from range.

We can focus chill/cripple/immobilize pretty well. Its just getting in the dps that is difficult. Blindness is probably the way to go tho. Rangers have some of the best control conditions int he game, barrage/traps/entangle.

Mesmer Glamour confusion, oh wait…. nerfed.

Retaliation, oh wait…. nerfed.

Drop some siege, oh wait…. melee trains roll over that with impunity

Implore Anet to introduce counter mechanics/measures, oh wait…. we’ve done that.

Buy a name changer, rename your toon to “loot bag”, and roll over like so many NPC’s before a PvE champion train. Hey, at least it’s sure fire.

Hello SkylightMoon,

I have workshopped with guilds in SOR (NYS 2013 Feb batch) and SBI (TE) in engaging large enemy forces. It’s possible to destroy or at least strip them 30-40man melee balls down.

You will need:

1. Really excellent range with great SA to keep them pressured with stripping stability, chills, slows, and utility to slow them down.

2. A solid driver on your side to watch their buffs, surge timing and positioning. Your driver needs to keep his cool and patience because you slice the melee ball like slicing roast beef, theres no way to take a ball down in one go.

Its possible to train pugs to do this. We have pushed off 50man ZD (heavy melee Russians) and ND (Koreans) with pugs in voice comms.

FW

SkylightMoon.1980:

I run a 15-20 man skill group with about 9-13 heavies depending on the group size with the rest ranged. We usually dont have much trouble wiping groups that are 30-40 man sized grouped, especially pugs. The only thing we have had trouble with lately is countering 30-40 man groups that run 20-30 melee. Specific guilds actually that just run enormous melee together. It seems impossible to counter as by the 3rd or 4th push we’ve only wiped out 10 people in their zerg while their entire melee train is still alive. Theres no way in hell we can push into the melee train with our melee, as we all get melted instantly. Slowing down the melee train with cripple and chill does work for a bit and gives us time to do other things but its still not enough. 20-30 melee, especially guardians, have an enormous amount of healing and dps, and health.

More boon stripping. Sigils of stamina. Defensive portals (mes drops near beginning of fight and drops again only when all other options are exhausted). Smoke field stealth (viel is lazy and utterly inefficient compared to what blasting/leaping smoke can do). Retal at the right time. Consecrated ground cd cycling. Dedicated CnD thief for finishing downed. Poison field sync with blast finishers (weakness is the best thing to shutdown melee you cant outrun).

Hope some of this helps.

Killing a pure balled up melee train is the same tactic as any train – take out the backline. The only difference here is that you have to create that backline with stuns, drag out the train. Kill them off one by one while avoiding the head of the train. It takes alot of time and is very susceptable to enemy reinforcements, but the melee train itself rarely have any power outside a very small focus area, meaning ranged people can circle at will.

15-20 organized group vs a 30-40 organized group…. you have little chance no matter what you do. If the numbers are more equal then: dodging the melee train and dropping mass null fields and wells gets the job done.

SkylightMoon.1980:

I run a 15-20 man skill group with about 9-13 heavies depending on the group size with the rest ranged. We usually dont have much trouble wiping groups that are 30-40 man sized grouped, especially pugs. The only thing we have had trouble with lately is countering 30-40 man groups that run 20-30 melee. Specific guilds actually that just run enormous melee together. It seems impossible to counter as by the 3rd or 4th push we’ve only wiped out 10 people in their zerg while their entire melee train is still alive. Theres no way in hell we can push into the melee train with our melee, as we all get melted instantly. Slowing down the melee train with cripple and chill does work for a bit and gives us time to do other things but its still not enough. 20-30 melee, especially guardians, have an enormous amount of healing and dps, and health.

Hi

We do this, though not always because it depends who logs on any given day etc. Also my post is long, so I will split it into 2 parts, here goes part 1:

Adjust your guild meta when facing these specific groups.

In a group of 20, you need about 8-10 necros, all traited for wells with ground targeting and staff, preferrably unblockable marks. You will not use plague much unlike regular fights. They need to be either hybrid power/condi or straight power, pure condi is ineffective due to the hammertrains insta cleansing.

Your necros become your bread and butter while everyone else becomes their support and CC, including warriors and guards.

All your guards have to have at minimum 20 but better 30 points into virtues and provide group stability not via shouts which isnt enough, but virtues. Avoid using Hollowed Ground as its a stationary, thus nearly useless ability in this scenario. All guards are just might, line of warding, condi cleansing, and above all stability bots.

Your warriors become group cleanse bots via warhorn, shake it off, etc. They can do ranged support. Warriors also provide group vigor and constant swiftness via warhor, this is extremely important.

Your eles are all staff, has to be staff, dagger or scepter is useless due to the shortened range. An ele without 1200 range is a dead ele here. Also, chill, water, static fields are a must.

Basically, you do not engage the melee. In fact, you kite them beyond max range, 1500+. They will leap in for pulls. 2 of your necros put down wells of corruption while staying at rage on the ones that lept. Chill marks, various CC etc. At 3 secs 2 more necros put down their wells, this is to counter the boon and cleanse spam, at 3 more secs, next 2 necros. This is all while nuking the hell out of them.

The remaining 4 necros concentrate on the point just behind the “head” of the hammertrain regardless if anyone is there or not. This seperates them into sub-groups and prevents reinforcements/regroup as well as retreat.

Here is part 2:

You can defeat them by kiting them between the ranges of 900-1200. Remember, leaps have a good range on them so do not be closer then 600 to them, if you go melee to melee you do not stand a chance. Your guards must watch the casters and provide stability when the melee is moving/leaping in. Your warriors must provide the vigor because everyone has to double-dodge a lot and then some and if your necros are loaded with energy/stamina sigils they will be less effective.

During the kiting you need to use chokes a lot, also practice scatter and reform moves. When melee train jumps in, you scatter in all directions far away and max range DPS just at the very tip of the 1200 range. Anyone below range 600 or without stability is dead.

During kiting there is a phase where they go to empower/cleanse/etc. 2 of your necros need to place wells of corruption and some marks on them during that time and imemdiately retreat beyond max range.

During your regroup phase: Make sure you are beyond their max range and break it short if you see them coming or see an opportunity to finish some of them off.

It takes a lot of practice and lot of players are unable to execute the necessary movements for this, you may need to weed out your guild a bit. Your entire guild/group has to be constantly moving and doing everything on the move. With heavy necro prescence you should also have enough wells of power to provide extra immob cleansing when needed.

Everyone has to pay attention not just to themselves but their group mates, guards need to pop F3 and F2 for any team mate that needs it, necros need to put a well of power on any person that needs it, eles water, etc. All this while movign at full speed.

Add 1 mesmer and 1 thief for a group of 20. Mesmer needs to be PU build running mass invis not timewarp as this will help a bit. Run staff and reduced CDs on Glamour, but do not be squishy.

1 Thief for stealth spikes and scouting on incoming and downed opponents, help you pick better targets.

Everyone should be running runes of melandru with saffron bread or pot of lemongrass poultry, except shout builds which use runes for group cleansing. No exceptions as you already have a small undermanned group and you will have enough hard time as it is.

If you do this, as I said you will have to gear up some people. You will also need to get rid of people that “play the way they want to” in favor of the ones that want to win these fights.

Things such as blind fields etc. work later pass half way through the fight once the odds are starting to get even, then you can do your leaps, plagues, blinds, etc. just as usual fight, but until you are down to same number, its just max range kiting, scatter and regroup, do not let them pull you in, keep stability up. Stability is your groups life line, any guard that uses only “Stand Your Ground” is inadequate and needs to be replaced for what you want to accomplish.

These type of figths can and do get very intense, they are hard and tiring to command, and as I said, it does take a lot of practice from everyone so don’t expect good results immediately. But if you keep at it a bit, you will see how it works. Once you have your 1st few wipes of organized hammertrains, the rest becomes real easy.

Good Luck

Walls are good, but then you might have to walk the yaks in, and pay for a few upgrades.

You are being unrealistic if you think you can survive a pack of 20-30 guardians/warriors. The amount of shackle, line of warding and other immobilizing skills is too kitten high. Not to mention the warriors are superb with rifles and bows and staff guardians heal as crazy given most of them run ++Healing Power gear.

Oh did I mention that a guardian could just blink in the middle of your group and rip you from the inside out and blink back to his zerg if kitten gets serious? Yeah … your best bet is to mix it up and give up this all ranged-only thing

P.S: Shout healer warriors are nice ^.^
P.S: In my own experience when I’m roaming with warrior and I see ranged players I swap my bow to sword/shied for some extra gap closing and immobilize. I can only guess the majority of warriors do that. And when I’m roaming on the thief and the fight is out in the open I usually flank, cloak and burst from behind and shadow step if kitten gets serious. I would guess most thieves do that as well.

Your best bet would be to kite all the way and make sure you avoid the gap closers. We all know that’s impossible but doesn’t mean you can’t try.

Here is a video of [SG] Shadow Gypsies [JQ] range dps group, we had some melee’s, taking on two very good open field very tank heavy guilds [Agg] Aggression and [EP] Everything Purple.

http://youtu.be/R9XMagzAVQI

bring bigger meleetrain.

Other then that, real boonhate.. REAL boonhate.. not this remove 1 boon on pulse/hit w.e. happy go luck nonsense.

Ravenmoon.5318:

You are being unrealistic if you think you can survive a pack of 20-30 guardians/warriors. The amount of shackle, line of warding and other immobilizing skills is too kitten high. Not to mention the warriors are superb with rifles and bows and staff guardians heal as crazy given most of them run ++Healing Power gear.

Oh did I mention that a guardian could just blink in the middle of your group and rip you from the inside out and blink back to his zerg if kitten gets serious? Yeah … your best bet is to mix it up and give up this all ranged-only thing

P.S: Shout healer warriors are nice ^.^
P.S: In my own experience when I’m roaming with warrior and I see ranged players I swap my bow to sword/shied for some extra gap closing and immobilize. I can only guess the majority of warriors do that. And when I’m roaming on the thief and the fight is out in the open I usually flank, cloak and burst from behind and shadow step if kitten gets serious. I would guess most thieves do that as well.

Your best bet would be to kite all the way and make sure you avoid the gap closers. We all know that’s impossible but doesn’t mean you can’t try.

Ummm hi !

We do this. hence it is not unrealistic, just because you can’t or your team/guild can’t do not assume that of everyone. If I had a better rig I’d make you a vid, but unfortunately I can’t take the performance hit that causes, tried. However, there are plenty of vids available, see them. And it is about range and everything I pointed out. Note on the vids every single person that stays within leap/pull range is insta downed if they dont have stability / insta immob cleanse etc.

It is not easy, requires a lot more coordination and effort then regular fights, but it does work and is practiced here and there. There is actually a whole guild like this, they run 20-25ish, and unfortunately I forgot its name, but its a whole basically ranged guild dedicated to kiting/burning hammer trains. We fought them a while ago.

What I pointed out is an ideal comp for it, but you can actually do with far less ranged, but then it will be that much harder, just like you see in the vids due to having more downed people on your team.

Also, 15 is not enough people, minimum you will need is 20, but OP said he runs 15-20.

Most of these responses are a little delusional.

Haro.6758:

Here is a video of [SG] Shadow Gypsies [JQ] range dps group, we had some melee’s, taking on two very good open field very tank heavy guilds [Agg] Aggression and [EP] Everything Purple.

http://youtu.be/R9XMagzAVQI

You guys have just as many and/or more people than Agg/EP in this video.. And they aren’t running as two guild groups, that’s Agg with some EP, or maybe EP with some Agg. Kudos I guess, but that’s not really impressive. Looks like you guys had little to no coordination, and just kited them with your numbers. That’s strategy yeah..but where’s the coordinated bomb?

To the OP:

The bottom line is that it depends on the guild you’re fighting. If its one of the more experienced GvG guilds, chances are, you aren’t going to beat them with significantly less numbers. Fights between good guilds are already hard enough with even numbers, when you start getting into a difference around 10 or more, you just won’t have enough to kill them. You can take out pugs all day, but when it comes to a coordinated guild, 9 out of 10 times you just have to have comparable numbers.

Just realized you’re from CD, so there are definitely things you can do to fight those guilds. I can’t think of a single guild in those tiers that can run numbers like that without uplevels or at least a handful of awful players. Just don’t try to be heroes and take the melee head on. Peel the apple..aim for the middle of their group, push to the back line, focus your dps on spots where you can cc them, don’t pointlessly stand in their dps, and keep moving.

If you are doing all that and still having problems, you have issues with your builds. Make sure you have enough sustain (boons, cleansing, blast finishers+waters, or in-combat heals), and enough damage. If you’re taking on bigger groups, you have to take them out chunk by chunk, and you can’t do that with wet noodle builds.

SkylightMoon.1980:

I run a 15-20 man skill group with about 9-13 heavies depending on the group size with the rest ranged. We usually dont have much trouble wiping groups that are 30-40 man sized grouped, especially pugs. The only thing we have had trouble with lately is countering 30-40 man groups that run 20-30 melee.

The answer is live to fight another group, because the scenario you are describing means the ratios are too similar. Those groups are larger versions of your grouping, and numbers>skill in this game.

My best advice is to practice controlling the engagement (you determine when and where to engage), and try to control the tempo/movement.

You cannot… that is the simple truth. Well stacked melee trains soak up too much damage and have far too much overlap to be beaten by control, condition or even ranged DPS. The only way I have seen them beaten is by an even bigger or better formulated melee train.

I know the WvW community likes diversity but right now large bunker guardian and warrior trains have no viable consistent counters that I have seen. They don’t need to stop to heal, they can absorb ridiculous amounts of damage, the continually cycle boons, continually heal, Teflon to conditions, banner rezzing, on and on.

Last group standing in most fights, big blob of heavies stacked on each other. There are rare exceptions with skill groups that use high mobility to avoid the melee blob long enough to whittle them down but one wrong turn and that same group gets eaten so it isn’t consistent IMO.

SkylightMoon.1980:

I run a 15-20 man skill group with about 9-13 heavies depending on the group size with the rest ranged. We usually dont have much trouble wiping groups that are 30-40 man sized grouped, especially pugs. The only thing we have had trouble with lately is countering 30-40 man groups that run 20-30 melee. Specific guilds actually that just run enormous melee together. It seems impossible to counter as by the 3rd or 4th push we’ve only wiped out 10 people in their zerg while their entire melee train is still alive. Theres no way in hell we can push into the melee train with our melee, as we all get melted instantly. Slowing down the melee train with cripple and chill does work for a bit and gives us time to do other things but its still not enough. 20-30 melee, especially guardians, have an enormous amount of healing and dps, and health.

ITT: Player who runs with a cheese guild is upset that there are larger guilds that run the same cheese.

to stop large melee trains you want the following;
A: a ballista placed at good distance from the battle, but still within reach. You will need this to kill the downed extremely quickly before they can get rezzed/rally.

B: permanent immobilize, cripple and chill uptime on everyone. No matter how many warriors you got with dogged march. Dump enough condis on them and they are harmless.

C: very mobile units with many evades and DPS + tanky ranged builds (Trap Rangers, Venomshare Thieves, Condi bunker Engineers, zerker Elementalists)

D: lots and lots of ground targeted AOE conditions (Marks, traps)

Drigan.7382:

Most of these responses are a little delusional.

Haro.6758:

Here is a video of [SG] Shadow Gypsies [JQ] range dps group, we had some melee’s, taking on two very good open field very tank heavy guilds [Agg] Aggression and [EP] Everything Purple.

http://youtu.be/R9XMagzAVQI

You guys have just as many and/or more people than Agg/EP in this video.. And they aren’t running as two guild groups, that’s Agg with some EP, or maybe EP with some Agg. Kudos I guess, but that’s not really impressive. Looks like you guys had little to no coordination, and just kited them with your numbers. That’s strategy yeah..but where’s the coordinated bomb?

To the OP:

The bottom line is that it depends on the guild you’re fighting. If its one of the more experienced GvG guilds, chances are, you aren’t going to beat them with significantly less numbers. Fights between good guilds are already hard enough with even numbers, when you start getting into a difference around 10 or more, you just won’t have enough to kill them. You can take out pugs all day, but when it comes to a coordinated guild, 9 out of 10 times you just have to have comparable numbers.

I never stated they had more than us. Our guys in coms are extremely coordinated. You don’t beat a melee tank train with a ranged group by being un-coordinated, especially AGG and EP. You don’t fight a tank train by “being on pin” with a bunch of dps either. Just an example of a ranged heavy group winning versus a melee heavy group.

10+ glass meteornado eles and a bunch of glass necros. Spam your meteors, static fields, chills, wells, etc. Scatter everywhere and avoid the melee train like a bullfighter. If they stop in a meteornado, people die. If they don’t all double dodge through the meteornado they die. If their squishes get hit with a single shot from your meteor shower, they will most likely die. Meanwhile, for their train to maintain cohesiveness, they have to chase down your casters a few at a time. Unless their group is perfectly on point, you can bring them down.

This is one of VR’s favorite strategies btw, so if you get matched up against Maguuma expect to see this.

The best way to beat a melee train? Bring a larger melee train than theirs

Guards cant be stability bots without hallowed ground. If you cycle it and place it on top of each water field then you will live a lot longer then not bringing it at all.

ThunderCat.8395:

10+ glass meteornado eles and a bunch of glass necros. Spam your meteors, static fields, chills, wells, etc. Scatter everywhere and avoid the melee train like a bullfighter. If they stop in a meteornado, people die. If they don’t all double dodge through the meteornado they die. If their squishes get hit with a single shot from your meteor shower, they will most likely die. Meanwhile, for their train to maintain cohesiveness, they have to chase down your casters a few at a time. Unless their group is perfectly on point, you can bring them down.

This is one of VR’s favorite strategies btw, so if you get matched up against Maguuma expect to see this.

I love VR for this.

Drigan.7382:

Just realized you’re from CD, so there are definitely things you can do to fight those guilds. I can’t think of a single guild in those tiers that can run numbers like that without uplevels or at least a handful of awful players. Just don’t try to be heroes and take the melee head on. Peel the apple..aim for the middle of their group, push to the back line, focus your dps on spots where you can cc them, don’t pointlessly stand in their dps, and keep moving.

If you are doing all that and still having problems, you have issues with your builds. Make sure you have enough sustain (boons, cleansing, blast finishers+waters, or in-combat heals), and enough damage. If you’re taking on bigger groups, you have to take them out chunk by chunk, and you can’t do that with wet noodle builds.

Well a lot of times its 15 of my guys on average with 15 pugs, and this week we may fight a guild of 25 plus pugs. Having pugs run with us actually makes things worse because of the rallybotting. The guilds we end up fighting arnt that bad, they do run really heavy melee trains though. Fighting VOID ended up being hard with their 35 man zerg, with probably 75% melee. Our ranged kept alt tabbing through their melee group and just consistently found guardians. Null fields and wells of corruption are nice to in reality are a lot harder to land then though since they are stationary fields when the melee ball is completely moving. Even if we try to land a CC, stability is one of the last boons to be removed after regen, swiftness, might, so theyd have to be pretty kittened to sit in that field. We ended up running more ele’s which has helped a lot though to counter big melee. Im honestly not a big fan of running 4-5 staff eles, since its almost a cheap tactic in zerg busting, but ill be sure to use them in these future situations.

Necros are natural counters to anything melee. Well of darkness+chilling darkness, well of corruption, corrosive poison cloud, and plague!! Your spam spam spam can and will outdo their cleanse cleanse cleanse.
Good luck!

Stand The Wall.6987:

Necros are natural counters to anything melee. Well of darkness+chilling darkness, well of corruption, corrosive poison cloud, and plague!! Your spam spam spam can and will outdo their cleanse cleanse cleanse.
Good luck!

Again, the only thing about wells is that they dont last long and are stationary. You’re lucky if 2 pulses of blindness hit their melee. Plague is good though. What seems to work well is to run 1 plague and just hide the melee inside the plague while the necro spams blind. and You’ll be able to go melee to melee really easy. It reduces yur incoming damage from melee by about half.

Usagi.4835:

ThunderCat.8395:

10+ glass meteornado eles and a bunch of glass necros. Spam your meteors, static fields, chills, wells, etc. Scatter everywhere and avoid the melee train like a bullfighter. If they stop in a meteornado, people die. If they don’t all double dodge through the meteornado they die. If their squishes get hit with a single shot from your meteor shower, they will most likely die. Meanwhile, for their train to maintain cohesiveness, they have to chase down your casters a few at a time. Unless their group is perfectly on point, you can bring them down.

This is one of VR’s favorite strategies btw, so if you get matched up against Maguuma expect to see this.

I love VR for this.

Thanks for the VR love!
<33333333333333333333
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L91Sq1zzAQ

(Note: I don’t personally like this video because almost all of those fights happen at a choke point. Rest assured we fought these guilds open field plenty of times but these are just the fights that Tricare had recorded)

If you put down your aoe in the right spot at the right time it will get more procs.
Mindlessly spamming it at the beginning of the fight is an exampe of how to do it wrong.

How to counter gigantic melee trains?

Spread out, wait out the initial stability and drop CC.
Don’t let them cleave / aoe you down.

1 Find a nice open place to fight
2 don’t give them a big target/spread out.. or make a hard to kill melee train that distract them.
3 dodge away from train
4 focus boons strip/cc/kill them one by one

This kind of force the enemy commander to spread out too, only way to counter this if you are good enough.