Guild Wars 2

Why are condition build considered cheese? cancer? all around negative and wack?

I started with a condition build. I sucked.. I got better…. then got shamed into going power. Not really shamed but you hear enough “still running that cheese build>?” you start trying new things to see what is up.

3 years later i’m still playing power build and wondering why the hell I don’t play a condition build especially now when they are so powerful.

Opinions please.

Because people don’t want to build to counter conditions because “they lose DPS doing so”.

Aside from condi-chronomancer, there is no condi build that worry me. The current bunker boonspamming meta annoy me much more than condition builds ever did.

I think if condition damage was affected by toughness just as power is, you wouldn’t see as many complaints. But conditions are treated as a separate area of damage where you have to build to counter it which usually means swapping out an important utility slot, or putting on certain traits which means you have to run the entire trait line, or changing sigils or runes. Sure the same goes for condition users, tho in some cases like necro they welcome condis, but not every class has equal access to removals and resistance.

Not to mention the crappy rules of removal on those skills, the fact that condition users can use dire and also counter damage from power users at the same time, the increased spamming of conditions through various methods, in which some cases it’s possible to condition bomb and kill you just as well if not better than a power build. They also don’t have to heavily rely on two other stats, precision and ferocity, to be effective while power does.

Play a condition build if you want to if you think it’s more powerful than your power build, makes no difference these days as every other joe mac and harry are using it, especially the roamers.

Rotteny.8743:

Because people don’t want to build to counter conditions because “they lose DPS doing so”.

Aside from condi-chronomancer, there is no condi build that worry me. The current bunker boonspamming meta annoy me much more than condition builds ever did.

^this
Even condi chronomancer wouldn’t be a problem if they’d revert confusion to the way it used to be, or just separate the skill for PvP/WvW so it only passively ticks in PvE.

I remember when everyone laughed at my poor original condition Mesmer. They scoffed at the build. Lol.

Trying to say it as simple as possible…

Condition builds generally require investment into only one stat, condition dmg, to be effective. Power builds require investment into three stats to be effective: power, precision, and ferocity. So a condition user can usually invest into more defensive stats that are easy counters for direct damage while the power user has to rely upon condition cleanses and dodges to counter condition damage (it ignores armor). That translates into power builds being of higher risk to play than condition builds. So condition builds are considered to be easier to win with than power builds.

Go ahead and play whatever you want though. Condition builds are usually found more amongst roaming and small man havoc rather than in large zergs because zergs usually have enough condi-cleanse to go around for everyone and make conditions ineffective (still effective on players squirreling off from their zerg). Play to be effective in what you’re doing.

Jayne.9251:

I remember when everyone laughed at my poor original condition Mesmer. They scoffed at the build. Lol.

You know, I’m now on an opposing server to you. Most definitely not going to entertain the possibility of duels after this comment.

At topic, some classes can apply a lot of conditions and keep them up to a high level past what a lot would consider OK condition cleansing. The ability to use dire stats back when expertise wasn’t a thing meant you had some of the best passive defensive stats in the game while keeping your damage stat as high as possible. Even with trailblazer you are pretty tanky, course it’s nothing on the abomination of PVT druid but that’s it’s own special kind of broken shared only by celementalist at the height of it’s fire trait line.

There’s a lot more conditions flying around since HoT, nearly every “meta” build since then has upped it’s cleansing in some way because of this.

Everything is broken, play the way you want… tell others to get bent. It’s a game.

apharma.3741:

There’s a lot more conditions flying around since HoT, nearly every “meta” build since then has upped it’s cleansing in some way because of this.

I actually find more power boonspammer bunkers than condi builds since HoT came out except for mesmers and necros. Most HoT elites favor power builds more than condi (except the aforementioned two).

Play what you want. People think they run wvw.

Rotteny.8743:

apharma.3741:

There’s a lot more conditions flying around since HoT, nearly every “meta” build since then has upped it’s cleansing in some way because of this.

I actually find more power boonspammer bunkers than condi builds since HoT came out except for mesmers and necros. Most HoT elites favor power builds more than condi (except the aforementioned two).

Sure mesmer and necros are the only ones favoring damage conditions but I’m not talking about only damaging conditions, power builds got a lot more control conditions. Think about druids, they boon spam but they also apply a lot of immobilise and taunt too which makes fighting them without decent condi cleanse/stunbreaks annoying. DH have more cripple, blind and added daze doesn’t help.

Chill, immobilise, taunt, cripple and weakness are very strong for power builds especially those with good kiting/stealth potential. This is what makes druid so imbalanced in small scale coupled with them having stealth on par with most stealth classes, high health regen and plenty of gap openers/evade frames.

apharma.3741:

Jayne.9251:

I remember when everyone laughed at my poor original condition Mesmer. They scoffed at the build. Lol.

You know, I’m now on an opposing server to you. Most definitely not going to entertain the possibility of duels after this comment.

Awww c`mon! I haven’t played in months, I’m total crap now. You could down me easily.

Sniff.

My point was that I used condi build at launch of GW2 and while it wasn’t optimal, it fit my playstyle. And everyone was like “you’re using condi on a mesmer?!!” … and now I find it mildly amusing that’s all people run now.

apharma.3741:

Sure mesmer and necros are the only ones favoring damage conditions but I’m not talking about only damaging conditions, power builds got a lot more control conditions. Think about druids, they boon spam but they also apply a lot of immobilise and taunt too which makes fighting them without decent condi cleanse/stunbreaks annoying. DH have more cripple, blind and added daze doesn’t help.

Chill, immobilise, taunt, cripple and weakness are very strong for power builds especially those with good kiting/stealth potential. This is what makes druid so imbalanced in small scale coupled with them having stealth on par with most stealth classes, high health regen and plenty of gap openers/evade frames.

10-20s cooldowns are spammable?

Multiple reasons:
1.
Condition damage comes from condition damage, that’s the only stat need which means the other stats go into defense.
Power damage NEEDS power/precision and ferocity, that leave no room for defense.
-Condition damage requires less to build effective.

2.
Most condition skills are applied with one button, a passive or it’s inbuilt into Auto Attack skills.
Most power builds rely on timing, setting up the burst or a combination of skills to perform correctly.
-Condition builds are easier to play, require less thought.

3.
Condition builds are not effected by any boon except resistance.
Power builds are effected by Protection and Weakness, which decreases over all output damage. Condition builds are not.
-There’s more DPS output from condition builds in general.

4.
A condition built player takes condition, stun breaks and something else.
A power built player takes condition removal, condition removal, all traits to condition removal and will still die to passive condition application.
-Power creep has heavily favored condition builds and passives/blocks. Passives and blocks don’t stop conditions from ticking.

There are more reasons, but it’s mostly a case of low risk high reward builds.

Example: You can hit someone with 14 ticks of burn then stealth/invuln and block till they die on a condi build or you could bust your kitten off landing hits onto someone with protection while they dish out aoe passive weakness onto you forcing you to disengage and reengage over and over. Why do all that when you could have ended the fight with a burn stacking and blocks?

In saying all that, it’s why I like Viper Mesmer so much. (full cheese PU/Manipulation/shatter)

Jayne.9251:

apharma.3741:

Jayne.9251:

I remember when everyone laughed at my poor original condition Mesmer. They scoffed at the build. Lol.

You know, I’m now on an opposing server to you. Most definitely not going to entertain the possibility of duels after this comment.

Awww c`mon! I haven’t played in months, I’m total crap now. You could down me easily.

Sniff.

My point was that I used condi build at launch of GW2 and while it wasn’t optimal, it fit my playstyle. And everyone was like “you’re using condi on a mesmer?!!” … and now I find it mildly amusing that’s all people run now.

To be fair, glamour confusion bombs were OP.

(even better was the traited chaos storm bug jumping off towers onto people below for 50k damage)

sephiroth.4217:

4.
A condition built player takes condition, stun breaks and something else.
A power built player takes condition removal, condition removal, all traits to condition removal and will still die to passive condition application.

so you’re saying a condition builds is immune to conditions and doesn’t need to bring condition removal?

Also there are plenty of power builds in the game that don’t require you to go full glass due to traits, sigils, boons, etc. making up the missing stats. There are also plenty of condi builds that require crits or +condi duration to be effective.

Jim Hunter.6821:

sephiroth.4217:

4.
A condition built player takes condition, stun breaks and something else.
A power built player takes condition removal, condition removal, all traits to condition removal and will still die to passive condition application.

so you’re saying a condition builds is immune to conditions and doesn’t need to bring condition removal?

Also there are plenty of power builds in the game that don’t require you to go full glass due to traits, sigils, boons, etc. making up the missing stats. There are also plenty of condi builds that require crits or +condi duration to be effective.

No I didn’t say that, it was a nice try to put words in my mouth, and you are correct about applying conditions with crits, I thought I had that covered under “passive application”…. I also said “and something else” which could be a condition cleanse but most likely a condition transfer.

Oh and I could totally play a viable Sentinel Elementalist, doesn’t need to be full glass…. Hopefully I don’t need to spell out what I’m implying there for you…

sephiroth.4217:

2.
Most condition skills are applied with one button, a passive or it’s inbuilt into Auto Attack skills.
Most power builds rely on timing, setting up the burst or a combination of skills to perform correctly.
-Condition builds are easier to play, require less thought.

Condition applied by auto attacks normally are low duration to even be effective. It’s like auto attacking in a power build. And considering a full zerker Revenant for exemple can do 4k crits with a 1200 range auto attack, I don’t think they are weak compared a 4s bleed from necro scepter.

Unlike the popular beliefs, condi builds also have a “burst” and a “downtime” like power builds. If you think you can just equip full dire and go 1111111111 you’ll find yourself dying a lot.

Rotteny.8743:

sephiroth.4217:

2.
Most condition skills are applied with one button, a passive or it’s inbuilt into Auto Attack skills.
Most power builds rely on timing, setting up the burst or a combination of skills to perform correctly.
-Condition builds are easier to play, require less thought.

Condition applied by auto attacks normally are low duration to even be effective. It’s like auto attacking in a power build. And considering a full zerker Revenant for exemple can do 4k crits with a 1200 range auto attack, I don’t think they are weak compared a 4s bleed from necro scepter.

Unlike the popular beliefs, condi builds also have a “burst” and a “downtime” like power builds. If you think you can just equip full dire and go 1111111111 you’ll find yourself dying a lot.

And I summed up at the end why I love my Viper Mes.

Viper mes has no “burst”… It’s just passives and shatters and stealth. It’s continued application or 10+ stacks of torment/confusion. I believe you’re an avid Mesmer player and would know this?

Anyway, what I posted is what I can see after 4 years of watching WvW evolve with 27 characters. Others will see differently, I know personally if I’m having a bad time roaming I will always seek out condition builds for easy wins. Trapper apoth/shaman thief right now being the go to or viper mes.

I also got a pic of you guys when I played my condi perplex shaman/settler Elementalist build back in the day

Conditions OP! I’m an avid hybrid condi player, so it’s not like I’m power complaining about conditions, its more like I’m a condition player and those are my reasons, I’m not going to fight a system that clearly gives an advantage to condition players. I’m going to adapt and evolve with the game to exploit it as much as possible.

Xenesis.6389:

apharma.3741:

Sure mesmer and necros are the only ones favoring damage conditions but I’m not talking about only damaging conditions, power builds got a lot more control conditions. Think about druids, they boon spam but they also apply a lot of immobilise and taunt too which makes fighting them without decent condi cleanse/stunbreaks annoying. DH have more cripple, blind and added daze doesn’t help.

Chill, immobilise, taunt, cripple and weakness are very strong for power builds especially those with good kiting/stealth potential. This is what makes druid so imbalanced in small scale coupled with them having stealth on par with most stealth classes, high health regen and plenty of gap openers/evade frames.

10-20s cooldowns are spammable?

Shouts are pretty spammable, that’s permanent swiftness and regen fueling astral and kiting potential. The druids I’m coming across are running 60-90% boon duration so protective ward ends up giving you 6/7s protection every 15s, with protect me and durability runes you’re easily keeping permanent protection too. Rangers also throw conditions out a lot too. Vine surge 20s CD, Ancient seeds 10s CD, natural convergence pulsing cripple and final immob. Lots of dazes/knockbacks to proc ancient seeds with stealth to cover in between times.

So yes I would say druids have spammable boons and cc both dazes and soft cc as they take as many as they can get making it spammable.

Apharma. I think you’re missing a golden opportunity. I am SO rusty, lol. I died so many times tonight.

sephiroth.4217:

And I summed up at the end why I love my Viper Mes.

Viper mes has no “burst”… It’s just passives and shatters and stealth. It’s continued application or 10+ stacks of torment/confusion. I believe you’re an avid Mesmer player and would know this?

And that’s why every time I talk about condis not being all that bad as everyone claims I always keep the Condition Chronomancer out. It’s broken. But honestly, the big deal with mesmer is the fact that both of the condis they apply are counter play. If you act with confusion you die. If you run with torment you die. And both of them seen to be very low in the cleasing priority. In fact confusion seen to always be the last, except for bleed.

sephiroth.4217:

Anyway, what I posted is what I can see after 4 years of watching WvW evolve with 27 characters. Others will see differently, I know personally if I’m having a bad time roaming I will always seek out condition builds for easy wins. Trapper apoth/shaman thief right now being the go to or viper mes.

Yesterday I was testing how long it would take to a condi mesmer (no chrono) to kill my GS/LB core warrior. Honestly I just walked away after I saw that my food ran out. I don’t think he would be able to finish it. But since people rather complain about condis than building to fight them yeah, I supose that’s a good choice.

sephiroth.4217:

I also got a pic of you guys when I played my condi perplex shaman/settler Elementalist build back in the day

“You guys”? I see 2 [SotD] players that I don’t know/regonize and TibbsDelTelTel in his mesmer which he plays once in a blue moon. Btw, this isn’t the first time you link this screenshot as a reply to me. You want to hear a “good job!” I guess?

sephiroth.4217:

Conditions OP! I’m an avid hybrid condi player, so it’s not like I’m power complaining about conditions, its more like I’m a condition player and those are my reasons, I’m not going to fight a system that clearly gives an advantage to condition players. I’m going to adapt and evolve with the game to exploit it as much as possible.

Well, if everyone decided to adapt we wouldn’t see all these cries about condis tbh… I see several solid power builds who can outlast condi bunkers. The boon spamming meta allow power builds to be much more effective than they were before. People that keep dying to condis are people who refuse to play a proper build to fight all kind of adversity they may find. They say they will “lose DPS” doing so. Well, dead people don’t do any DPS…

I just find condi to be both extremely boring to play as or against, it feels really passive, I know you have to hit someone to apply a condition with most skills just like you need to whack people to kill them with power. But it just doesn’t feel right.
Too stale I think, you can apply pressure 10 seconds after landing your attack because the condi has done it’s job, while power has to constantly be hitting to pressure. Now you’d think power would have more initial pressure because condis tick. That’s one of the problems, the hardest condi burst is scarier than the hardest power burst, which doesn’t make any shred of sense to me.

Rotteny.8743:

sephiroth.4217:

And I summed up at the end why I love my Viper Mes.

Viper mes has no “burst”… It’s just passives and shatters and stealth. It’s continued application or 10+ stacks of torment/confusion. I believe you’re an avid Mesmer player and would know this?

And that’s why every time I talk about condis not being all that bad as everyone claims I always keep the Condition Chronomancer out. It’s broken. But honestly, the big deal with mesmer is the fact that both of the condis they apply are counter play. If you act with confusion you die. If you run with torment you die. And both of them seen to be very low in the cleasing priority. In fact confusion seen to always be the last, except for bleed.

sephiroth.4217:

Anyway, what I posted is what I can see after 4 years of watching WvW evolve with 27 characters. Others will see differently, I know personally if I’m having a bad time roaming I will always seek out condition builds for easy wins. Trapper apoth/shaman thief right now being the go to or viper mes.

Yesterday I was testing how long it would take to a condi mesmer (no chrono) to kill my GS/LB core warrior. Honestly I just walked away after I saw that my food ran out. I don’t think he would be able to finish it. But since people rather complain about condis than building to fight them yeah, I supose that’s a good choice.

sephiroth.4217:

I also got a pic of you guys when I played my condi perplex shaman/settler Elementalist build back in the day

“You guys”? I see 2 [SotD] players that I don’t know/regonize and TibbsDelTelTel in his mesmer which he plays once in a blue moon. Btw, this isn’t the first time you link this screenshot as a reply to me. You want to hear a “good job!” I guess?

sephiroth.4217:

Conditions OP! I’m an avid hybrid condi player, so it’s not like I’m power complaining about conditions, its more like I’m a condition player and those are my reasons, I’m not going to fight a system that clearly gives an advantage to condition players. I’m going to adapt and evolve with the game to exploit it as much as possible.

Well, if everyone decided to adapt we wouldn’t see all these cries about condis tbh… I see several solid power builds who can outlast condi bunkers. The boon spamming meta allow power builds to be much more effective than they were before. People that keep dying to condis are people who refuse to play a proper build to fight all kind of adversity they may find. They say they will “lose DPS” doing so. Well, dead people don’t do any DPS…

There’s no point ignoring the condi chrono in the room just because it’s broken. It still comes under condition builds and as you said, torment/confusion is low on the priority list of cleanses which makes it even deadlier.

Can’t say much for the warrior vs mes thing, to me Warrior has always excelled in condition cleanses even with just Cleansing Ire and Berserkers Stance.

Ikr, it’s like the 8th time I’ve linked it to you now hahaha

I’ll stop tho, you took it as a joke the rest of the time.

sephiroth.4217:

There’s no point ignoring the condi chrono in the room just because it’s broken. It still comes under condition builds and as you said, torment/confusion is low on the priority list of cleanses which makes it even deadlier.

Can’t say much for the warrior vs mes thing, to me Warrior has always excelled in condition cleanses even with just Cleansing Ire and Berserkers Stance.

Ikr, it’s like the 8th time I’ve linked it to you now hahaha

I’ll stop tho, you took it as a joke the rest of the time.

What I mean when I exclude it from my opinion about condi builds is: I don’t mind condi builds these days except for the condi chrono which have a heavy application of the anti-play conditions. I’m not sure however how I would tone it down without making it completely useless compared to the other condi builds. I would at least revert the confusion change to it only tick when you use a skill. That passive tick on confusion is kittened and only needed in PvE.

And yeah, Cleasing Ire and Brawler’s Recovery along with resistance from Berserker Stance and Healing Signet (when it need to be used) make warrior very strong against most condition builds. And Longbow Burst activate both Cleasing Ire and Adrenal Health regardless if it hit a target or not. I also put some mango pies for extra regen flavor but I could go with condi or dmg reduction foods aswell.

Oh and don’t bother with the screenshot. I was wondering if you were trying to annoy me with it so I decided to “take the bait”. Seen it wasn’t the case.

I think a lot of people have already answered your question above but I’ll add my opinion into the batch:

1. Condition dmg is indeed a one stat area; you only need that alone to deal your dmg as opposed to a power based build requiring most likely berserker’s or marauder/cav etc consisting of both precision and/or ferocity.

This alone allows a condi user to simply waltz around in dire gear aka toughness AND vitality whilst dishing out all their dmg via conditions.

2. Dying to a condi build often upsets people and they have it in their mindset ‘dying to a cheese build because that build takes no skill’ or even to the extent that they believe the build is OP due to the first statement I made. Condi builds make people cranky. Dying to DoT effects make people upset even though it’s a valid play style and widely used.

3. It’s considered ‘cheese’ due to various other elements; the passive gameplay. You can probably dump a lot of conditions on someone, run away jumping around, come back and do it again and eventually kill them without actively doing anything significant or entwine combo’s into the rotation. Low risk, high reward for some classes.

As someone above stated already; a power build could invest everything possible into condi-clears and still die from DoT effects inevitably because the condi user can be very annoying to catch/chase or they are baiting out all your clears.

You shouldn’t be ashamed of playing a particular play style you ENJOY.

If condition builds suit you better, play them. Who cares what other people think – may as well join the club considering a vast amount of other people out there are playing those builds, too.

It’s always good to experiment; most of my time is spent making my own little builds and taking them for a spin in WvW roaming about – both condi and power.

Yes condition builds are powerful, especially if you’re not playing smart against them. The same goes for power builds. You won’t win every fight. Just enjoy the game, play what you want!

Rotteny.8743:

sephiroth.4217:

There’s no point ignoring the condi chrono in the room just because it’s broken. It still comes under condition builds and as you said, torment/confusion is low on the priority list of cleanses which makes it even deadlier.

Can’t say much for the warrior vs mes thing, to me Warrior has always excelled in condition cleanses even with just Cleansing Ire and Berserkers Stance.

Ikr, it’s like the 8th time I’ve linked it to you now hahaha

I’ll stop tho, you took it as a joke the rest of the time.

What I mean when I exclude it from my opinion about condi builds is: I don’t mind condi builds these days except for the condi chrono which have a heavy application of the anti-play conditions. I’m not sure however how I would tone it down without making it completely useless compared to the other condi builds. I would at least revert the confusion change to it only tick when you use a skill. That passive tick on confusion is kittened and only needed in PvE.

And yeah, Cleasing Ire and Brawler’s Recovery along with resistance from Berserker Stance and Healing Signet (when it need to be used) make warrior very strong against most condition builds. And Longbow Burst activate both Cleasing Ire and Adrenal Health regardless if it hit a target or not. I also put some mango pies for extra regen flavor but I could go with condi or dmg reduction foods aswell.

Oh and don’t bother with the screenshot. I was wondering if you were trying to annoy me with it so I decided to “take the bait”. Seen it wasn’t the case.

Nah the screenie as I said in the PM was just that joke from like 8 months ago from gw2wvw.net…. It’s the only one I got of you guys from the challenge.

Completely agree on Mesmer too as much as I love the class it needs a massive nerf bat to some of it’s mechanics.

Lets talk power builds… the counter for a power build is toughness. There are also invulnerability skills to power based damage.

Now take condition based damage.. toughness means nothing, condition clears and Resistance boon are the only combat for condition damage.

Since Anet decided that condition damage was to be made the primary source of damage, they really should have included toughness into the equation (or added another set of stats) to counter the amount of condition damage being taken. Just like every other freaking MMO does.

In all honesty though damage in general needs to be reduced a lot, and WvW needs to be moved away from PVE rule sets

Some classes are strong aplying conditions, well made condi bombs are deadly but…

Everything has a counter, sometimes teamplay or stacking X class solves that problem.

People always to need to complain about something it seems.Someone found a good build and kills the other person now that person whines and calls it a “Cheese build”.
Theirs no such thing as a “chesse build” or an “op build”. just builds.