Guild Wars 2

I think both downstate-haters and downstate-lovers might agree the following two suggestions/changes:

1. reduce the amount of hitpoints in downstate
(it was done in sPvP already, needs to be done in WvW as well)

2. don’t allow rally on trashmobs in WvW
(when a player downed you, it should require a player to rally on, not some cheap trash mob you barely scratched before he died to some AoE nearby)

pls discuss

The downed state was the compromise for not having a healing class. If you were fighting two warriors and a kiting healer you would have had no success. Counter-strike has no resing, in combat heals, or out of combat regen. That might suit your fancy.

Snoxx.7943:

I think both downstate-haters and downstate-lovers might agree the following two suggestions/changes:

1. reduce the amount of hitpoints in downstate
(it was done in sPvP already, needs to be done in WvW as well)

2. don’t allow rally on trashmobs in WvW
(when a player downed you, it should require a player to rally on, not some cheap trash mob you barely scratched before he died to some AoE nearby)

pls discuss

Hit points in downstate are fine. Imagine a group trying to sustain an operation far from their waypoint against a tower or keep if downed = dead.

If you are fighting a trash mob and some theif does his instagib spike on you out of nowhere you should be able to rally on the trash mob you were working on if it is still attacking you. Not being able to rally on trash mobs means all trash mobs would have to be made neutral in any PvP combat. Once they are a combatant they are fair game like any other.

So if the person you kill has to run back from a map point because they couldn’t get revived, would that give you greater satisfaction? If so, this might not be the game for you.

If I kill someone and they get a revive, great for them. They can continue playing the game instead of wasting time running back, and I can continue attacking others around me, including that revived player. I consider it a win-win situation, but to each his own.

Saweth You Him.9047:

Hit points in downstate are fine. Imagine a group trying to sustain an operation far from their waypoint against a tower or keep if downed = dead.

You are exaggerating. I didn’t want downed = dead. I just wanted to reduce the hit points by a bit, because right now rezzing a downed mate is far too easy.

Saweth You Him.9047:

If you are fighting a trash mob and some theif does his instagib spike on you out of nowhere you should be able to rally on the trash mob you were working on if it is still attacking you. Not being able to rally on trash mobs means all trash mobs would have to be made neutral in any PvP combat. Once they are a combatant they are fair game like any other.

Insta-gibbing thieves are a bad example. Thieves in general are bad examples when we discuss the downed state, because they have the best downstate (most evasive options of all) and at the same time have the best tools to counter other classes downstate (stealth stomping).

Now let’s assume there is a non-thief attacking you while you were fighting that mob.

I can tell you what happens: That mob will die before you go down.

Why?

Many attacks in GW2 deal their damage to multiple targets. It’s not just the big AoE attacks like Meteor Shower. There is bouncing attacks, attacks that hit 2 or 3 targets and stuff like that. For a greatsword warrior it would be simply impossible to down you without killing that poor mob first. How much hitpoints do you have? Probably around 20k. How much hitpoints does a trash mob have? I assume less than 10k, and it’s already wounded because you were fighting it, so make that 5k. The greatsword attacks deal same damage to both, to the mob and you. Go figure who dies first.

To further elaborate this story, what happens when you are down, the first mob is dead already, but there is another, so far uninvolved mob nearby. Pull it! Then make the warriors first stomp attempt fail (every class can disturb the first stomp) and hope he will just use 100blades instead to finish you. Voila, there you go: You RALLY!

As I explained above, your hitpoints by far exceed those of that trash mob. Thus the warrior will be unable to kill you (with damage instead of stomp) before killing that mob. By killing that mob he has revived you. Did you deserve being so lucky? No! Does it work anyway? Yes! Do I use this little trick in real WvW? Yes, all the time! Does it really work? Yes, more often than you’d believe …

Finally, let’s discuss what may happen when it’s the other way around, the warrior is down and you try to stomp him. Warrior hits Revenge, gets up, kills some mob with a single use of 100blades, and then he is FULLY REVIVED (with a 100% success rate if he specs a certain trait).

Stupid, eh?

The only thing that sucks about rezzing in WvW is rallying on kills. Killing guards, players, wandering NPCs it all rallies you.

And it just sucks that both sides have a few down, one of yours dies (or a random mob) and bam you see 5 ppl on the otherside get back up on their feet. I
’d suggest meeting either a certain harsher criteria before you can rally on a kill (not this 1 hit = rally crap). You rally on enemies whom you have damage for 20% of their health.
Or easier, remove rally on kill entirely from WvW. To rally someone you have to help him up, or use abilities that rally.

Snoxx.7943:

I think both downstate-haters and downstate-lovers might agree the following two suggestions/changes:

1. reduce the amount of hitpoints in downstate
(it was done in sPvP already, needs to be done in WvW as well)

2. don’t allow rally on trashmobs in WvW
(when a player downed you, it should require a player to rally on, not some cheap trash mob you barely scratched before he died to some AoE nearby)

pls discuss

1) Disagree, because it would require a reduction in aoe damage (perhaps damage in general) to balance. The speed of revival in combat should be halved, and the ability to revive defeated players while in combat mode should be eliminated altogether . That would solve the problem of players simply facetanking ballistas and arrow carts while reviving.

2) Partially agree. It would be better (imo) if rallying off mobs were only possible if significant damage had been done to them AFTER being downed. Damage done to trash mobs from casual aoe before going down should NOT count toward rallying. That way, builds focused on downed state survival/damage would have a place and use, but the problem of rallying off unintended random damage would be solved. Rabbit rallying should be removed altogether. If that’s not possible or too hard to code to be worth it, just remove rallying off trash mobs completely.

Snoxx.7943:

I think both downstate-haters and downstate-lovers might agree the following two suggestions/changes:

1. reduce the amount of hitpoints in downstate
(it was done in sPvP already, needs to be done in WvW as well)

2. don’t allow rally on trashmobs in WvW
(when a player downed you, it should require a player to rally on, not some cheap trash mob you barely scratched before he died to some AoE nearby)

pls discuss

Correct me if im wrong, but downed health was actually increased in sPvP to encourage using the downed finisher instead of just dpsing.

Reviving is a part of the game and you just have to learn to factor it in. It’s one of my favourite mechanics for various reasons.

One such reason is this: Often you’ll have a zerg force outside a keep, or a zerg v zerg going at it. You get those D/D eles who love to think they’re the shizit by pushing the boundaries hard, messing up, and dropping. They have mist form as their get out of jail free card, flee from downed into the “safety” of their zerg, and get a res so they can do a rinse repeat of their ever used ginger bread man tactics. That’s where I come in.

I keep an eye on these players. When they go down I start a pursuit and chase after their mist form. When I get within range, right in the middle of their zerg, I spawn 3 clones, drop a TW, shatter for distortion, stomp, and blink/prestige back to the safety of my lines.

I can only imagine these players going “OMG, WTF!” every time

Love downed/res.

For number 2 one can simply make the trash mob immune to player damage as soon as the player enters pvp and the trash mob turns neutral. Elite mobs and WvW npcs would obviously not follow this rule.

Number 1 should be left alone. The game has been out for almost five months now. The revive system works fine. The game has a meta score of 93 or something like that. Almost all mmos are gradually ruined over time because the game didn’t play the way some player wanted it to play. But the game plays great. 1 vs 3 is such a specific case amongst all the possible scenarios. What about 50 vs 50 vs 50 in SMC throne room. What about 10 vs 10. 10 people can spam the spot with aoe where the person would be revived and they won’t be revived. In the group of 10 there is likely to be a class that can remove boons. They remove stability off the reviver and kill both the reviver and revivee.

Since downed state is a way of everyone trying to survive, everyone should have a way of going into a tower/keep or safety of their zerg like ele can.

There should be a set of downed skills that we should be able to choose from to use in our downed state to better work with how we are playing. This way we can build a downed state based on whether we are running with a zerg or small group or solo play.

If you rally or are rezzed from downed state you should have 75% health so you are not insta downed from aoe or anything like that. You should be able to join the fight again without just falling right back down.

Players should suffer a downed penalty that starts them with less hp each time they are downed. If after 2 – 3 times they are downed the next time should = insta death.

Dead players should suffer a death penalty. When you are rez from death you start with 50% health then 25% until you can no longer be rezzed and have to wp out.

Well just my ideas. Don’t know if they would be good or not.

hharry.1967:

Correct me if im wrong, but downed health was actually increased in sPvP to encourage using the downed finisher instead of just dpsing.

They decreased it first by a huge amount and on the next patch they increased it by a little. The first change was too much, it seemed nobody bothered to use stomp anymore in sPvP, so they had to fine tune it a bit. Downed health is still lower than it was before they started changing it.

Terrahero.9358:

The only thing that sucks about rezzing in WvW is rallying on kills. Killing guards, players, wandering NPCs it all rallies you.

And it just sucks that both sides have a few down, one of yours dies (or a random mob) and bam you see 5 ppl on the otherside get back up on their feet. I
’d suggest meeting either a certain harsher criteria before you can rally on a kill (not this 1 hit = rally crap). You rally on enemies whom you have damage for 20% of their health.

Yes, the “1 hit is enough to rally” crap needs to go.

How about we replace it by the same criteria which decides whether you get a loot bag or not. You only rally on a kill if you did enough damage to get a loot bag from it.

… nah, this would be too harsh.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Reviving is a part of the game and you just have to learn to factor it in. It’s one of my favourite mechanics for various reasons.

One such reason is this: Often you’ll have a zerg force outside a keep, or a zerg v zerg going at it. You get those D/D eles who love to think they’re the shizit by pushing the boundaries hard, messing up, and dropping. They have mist form as their get out of jail free card, flee from downed into the “safety” of their zerg, and get a res so they can do a rinse repeat of their ever used ginger bread man tactics. That’s where I come in.

I keep an eye on these players. When they go down I start a pursuit and chase after their mist form. When I get within range, right in the middle of their zerg, I spawn 3 clones, drop a TW, shatter for distortion, stomp, and blink/prestige back to the safety of my lines.

I can only imagine these players going “OMG, WTF!” every time

Love downed/res.

On the other hand, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve activated Mist Form at ~10% health just to have someone follow me into my zerg, probably thinking I was downed, and get focus fired down instantly.

In WvW, D/D Eles excel at disrupting their enemies. If you break formation, they’ve probably won.

Porky.5021:

Dee Jay.2460:

But the downed state and the easy nature of revives makes this the most downright frustrating experience in any video game I’ve played in the last decade. I’ve litterally attacked groups of 3 by myself and downed the same player 3 times. But they just keep on reviving.

So you’re unhappy you can’t win 1v3 and rather than adjusting to the game the way it is, you keep playing the game the way you wish it was.

Interesting. To each his own.

The thing is I could….but revives make it nigh impossible. As long as their team-mates react at all they can revive their team-mate faster than any finisher could ever be.

My problem really isn’t with the downed state per say…but with how quickly people can revive each other.

Parsee Komeiji.2049:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Reviving is a part of the game and you just have to learn to factor it in. It’s one of my favourite mechanics for various reasons.

One such reason is this: Often you’ll have a zerg force outside a keep, or a zerg v zerg going at it. You get those D/D eles who love to think they’re the shizit by pushing the boundaries hard, messing up, and dropping. They have mist form as their get out of jail free card, flee from downed into the “safety” of their zerg, and get a res so they can do a rinse repeat of their ever used ginger bread man tactics. That’s where I come in.

I keep an eye on these players. When they go down I start a pursuit and chase after their mist form. When I get within range, right in the middle of their zerg, I spawn 3 clones, drop a TW, shatter for distortion, stomp, and blink/prestige back to the safety of my lines.

I can only imagine these players going “OMG, WTF!” every time

Love downed/res.

On the other hand, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve activated Mist Form at ~10% health just to have someone follow me into my zerg, probably thinking I was downed, and get focus fired down instantly.

Haha, yeah! Mist form is not the same as vapor form, but bloodlust blinded cookie cutter shatter mesmers (see what I did there?) are pretty easily confused…..

Blowing 3-4 big cooldowns and an elite for one stomp seems pretty wasteful to me, but to each their own. I’d consider it a win if I can get a mesmer to drop their TW somewhere that it won’t benefit their zerg at all, even at the cost of my gingerbread man, I mean pixels….

Thrashbarg.9820:

Snoxx.7943:

I think both downstate-haters and downstate-lovers might agree the following two suggestions/changes:

1. reduce the amount of hitpoints in downstate
(it was done in sPvP already, needs to be done in WvW as well)

2. don’t allow rally on trashmobs in WvW
(when a player downed you, it should require a player to rally on, not some cheap trash mob you barely scratched before he died to some AoE nearby)

pls discuss

1) Disagree, because it would require a reduction in aoe damage (perhaps damage in general) to balance. The speed of revival in combat should be halved, and the ability to revive defeated players while in combat mode should be eliminated altogether . That would solve the problem of players simply facetanking ballistas and arrow carts while reviving.

2) Partially agree. It would be better (imo) if rallying off mobs were only possible if significant damage had been done to them AFTER being downed. Damage done to trash mobs from casual aoe before going down should NOT count toward rallying. That way, builds focused on downed state survival/damage would have a place and use, but the problem of rallying off unintended random damage would be solved. Rabbit rallying should be removed altogether. If that’s not possible or too hard to code to be worth it, just remove rallying off trash mobs completely.

Thanks for the constructive feedback.

1) Halving the speed of revival in combat sounds like a possible alternative solution to me.

2) Too complicated, wont happen. But it’s good you mention there are builds focused on downed state survival/damage, and they’d become utterly useless without the possibility of rallying on mobs. On the other hand, if these builds exist in real WvW, then probably just to exploit the hell out of this crappy game design.

Maybe there is another solution: Increase the hitpoints of trash mobs in WvW. Give them a health pool equal to what average player chars have. This way there is no quick-killing a mob with a few hits when you got downed, no more dragging the mob into some AoE and hoping it will die. It wont die, but will simply outlast you. Rally on that mob? Good luck!

Just like no one tries to rally on a veteran guard NPC with full health, and you all know why …

If they design mobs with health equal to players, the mobs will have around 40k life. Way too much? Players only got around 20k life? No, just think about the downed state, and how you get a second life bar from it. Mobs don’t have a downed state, so that’s why the caculation has to be 20k + 20k = 40k. Otherwise we’d have to give mobs a downstate, now that’s gonna be funny …

Parsee Komeiji.2049:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Reviving is a part of the game and you just have to learn to factor it in. It’s one of my favourite mechanics for various reasons.

One such reason is this: Often you’ll have a zerg force outside a keep, or a zerg v zerg going at it. You get those D/D eles who love to think they’re the shizit by pushing the boundaries hard, messing up, and dropping. They have mist form as their get out of jail free card, flee from downed into the “safety” of their zerg, and get a res so they can do a rinse repeat of their ever used ginger bread man tactics. That’s where I come in.

I keep an eye on these players. When they go down I start a pursuit and chase after their mist form. When I get within range, right in the middle of their zerg, I spawn 3 clones, drop a TW, shatter for distortion, stomp, and blink/prestige back to the safety of my lines.

I can only imagine these players going “OMG, WTF!” every time

Love downed/res.

On the other hand, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve activated Mist Form at ~10% health just to have someone follow me into my zerg, probably thinking I was downed, and get focus fired down instantly.

In WvW, D/D Eles excel at disrupting their enemies. If you break formation, they’ve probably won.

lol.. i like doing that too. its really funny when 5 people chase me back to my zerg just to find out im not downed and fully healed ( mist form, water attunement, dodge roll, glyph of elemental harmony ) . then they are downed and im standing on top of them to do some stomping, or im just laying aoe all around them while some others do the stomping. while they are stomping other invaders trying to hit them and down them first so i use churning earth and lightning flash right into the group of them and they scatter like roaches when you turn the lights on.

Dee Jay.2460:

I quit WvW every time because of revives

… and I only play WvW because of revives. There! Some balance.

Revive would be fine, except that elementalists have too easy a time getting back to a place where they can be rezed. This gives them easy mode tactics in group fights, where they just rush into the enemy with their AOE combo, suicide, get away, get revived in seconds… repeat.

Easy mode like this shouldn’t be in WvW.

Thing about downed mechanic that people forget….

Is every time you’re downed within a period of time (something like 30 seconds which is more like an hour in ‘fight-time’) you revive with less and less health. After ~3 “downs” you revive with ~10-20% health and no longer have a downed state.

Quite simply put, if you can’t take down a downed player, you don’t deserve the kill. Mobility, 10+ skills, Utilities, Heals, and Elite > Immobile (essentially), 4 skills, no utility, no elite, crummy heals.

I don’t see what the issue is? Stomp him or take an extra 2 seconds of DPS.

Not going to lie, in WvW I just throw down a bunch of AOE right before I die. Chances are that someone is going to kill a deer nearby (that you hit maybe once with your AOE) and then you revive. I managed to keep 30 person zerg occupied for a good 20-30s yesterday by AOEing some drakes right before I went down the first time. I must have rallied 4 or 5 times just facerolling the keyboard. The rest of my guild was able to safely slip away while the zerg was trying to kill me.

I feel like you should have to reach a threshold of at least 3-4k damage while downed before it counts for a rally. Otherwise you can just attack everything in sight and you’ll rally (if the other people aren’t careful).

I’m probably not the first one of mention it here but the best way to deal with downed state is to embrace it. Like if I see someone rezzing, I CC or pressure them off before the stomp. Or should I say “finish” cause I don’t use my stomp as the sole way to kill.

In any case if you look around there’s vids of smaller forces winning out over large ones, one’s on the front page of this board currently. It’s all about organization an strategy. (If you have neither of those, Siege is a nice equalizer too)