Guild Wars 2

I realize that there are many fluid situations from tier to tier, time of day, server balance etc. and it is hard to have a 1 stop solution to meet them all, but today T3 in EB, I got sense of what the new AC design is trying to do

Yaks Bend Overlook and under attack for kaineng. Our keep was decently sieged up and as is usual in the morning we were significantly outmanned by kaineng (no where near as bad as it was with DB). They start attacking our overlook and get through the outer in fairly quick order. Now at first they ran up the ramp to our gate with Golems and rams. At this point our AC’s did a good job of killing the golem and rams, and some players. In the past we simply would have lost overlook fast simply based on numbers

Kaineng being good players regrouped and proceeded to systematically go around the keep, spread out and their engineers and ele’s destroyed all siege on the walls. Yes we killed some while they did this, and yes it took them time to do it. Once they cleared the walls they needed, they set up catapults, knocked down the wall. Instead of charging the lord and dying to remaining ACs they charged up the walls, cleared remaining ACs, then took the keep

So what did the new ACs do. They slowed the normal zerg 2 minute take of a keep, made kaineng do more then overwhelm doors and added some needed strategy to taking keeps vs simple numbers. If it was even numbers or even close we likely would have driven them off which I think should happen. As is we slowed them down but yes they were able to overcome the new UBER ac’s

I still think the ACs need some adjustment, but I can see a sense of what Anet is trying to do

deracs.1762:

I realize that there are many fluid situations from tier to tier, time of day, server balance etc. and it is hard to have a 1 stop solution to meet them all, but today T3 in EB, I got sense of what the new AC design is trying to do

Yaks Bend Overlook and under attack for kaineng. Our keep was decently sieged up and as is usual in the morning we were significantly outmanned by kaineng (no where near as bad as it was with DB). They start attacking our overlook and get through the outer in fairly quick order. Now at first they ran up the ramp to our gate with Golems and rams. At this point our AC’s did a good job of killing the golem and rams, and some players. In the past we simply would have lost overlook fast simply based on numbers

Kaineng being good players regrouped and proceeded to systematically go around the keep, spread out and their engineers and ele’s destroyed all siege on the walls. Yes we killed some while they did this, and yes it took them time to do it. Once they cleared the walls they needed, they set up catapults, knocked down the wall. Instead of charging the lord and dying to remaining ACs they charged up the walls, cleared remaining ACs, then took the keep

So what did the new ACs do. They slowed the normal zerg 2 minute take of a keep, made kaineng do more then overwhelm doors and added some needed strategy to taking keeps vs simple numbers. If it was even numbers or even close we likely would have driven them off which I think should happen. As is we slowed them down but yes they were able to overcome the new UBER ac’s

I still think the ACs need some adjustment, but I can see a sense of what Anet is trying to do

I agree this was the concept. The problem is when your tier is pretty much even and you always have a lot of defenders fully upgraded keeps and towers are near impossible to take now. The only way the new AC’s and all of the other changes work is if one side is outmanned. Even numbers and it makes an already long arduous process that used to sometimes take hours impossible for anyone to do in one sitting.

The AC change is fine if they only apply it is the player who is on it has the outmanned buff.

Yeah it’s pretty clear. ACs weren’t particularly useful and didn’t really pose much of a threat outside of narrow corridors like Pang or the paths to the SM Lord Room. Now they actually pose a threat to those in more open areas too (Still contained, but more open), giving smaller groups a better chance of survival.

The problem is abuse. That pic of 12 ACs on one door keeps popping up, and that pretty much says it all. I don’t know how often you’d really be able to MAN all those ACs, or how useful it would be when dealing with multiple broken walls or ranged catas/trebs, but the fact is it’s getting overused.

Underpowered and never useful, or overpowered and abused horribly? Which is worse?

Chessrook.8643:

Yeah it’s pretty clear. ACs weren’t particularly useful and didn’t really pose much of a threat outside of narrow corridors like Pang or the paths to the SM Lord Room. Now they actually pose a threat to those in more open areas too (Still contained, but more open), giving smaller groups a better chance of survival.

The problem is abuse. That pic of 12 ACs on one door keeps popping up, and that pretty much says it all. I don’t know how often you’d really be able to MAN all those ACs, or how useful it would be when dealing with multiple broken walls or ranged catas/trebs, but the fact is it’s getting overused.

Underpowered and never useful, or overpowered and abused horribly? Which is worse?

6-10 AC’s is commonplace in a fully upgraded tower in T2. Almost every tower/keep has at least 6.

Chessrook.8643:

Underpowered and never useful, or overpowered and abused horribly? Which is worse?

What kind of fail set of alternatives is that? It shouldn’t be either of them.

Also I would beg to differ on AC being underpowered before, considering 17 AC = 1 Golem in cost. They didn’t have a problem taking out rams before the buff either.

I wouldn’t say that AC’s were never useful, before the patch. Two well placed AC’s could easily take out rams on a gate and make it hard for smallish zergs to actively attack a tower/keep. They are WAY overpowered now and will be horribly abused.

There’s a fundamental difference in opinion on what siege should be able to do.

A lot of WvW types come from the DAOC/Warhammer camp (for obvious reasons, these were the prototypes for this style of play). I think some typical views that come from this camp are (and I can only speak for myself).

1. Ability to kill other players or stop or slow to a crawl a siege from “safety” should be very limited…. there seems to still be a lot of going through doors and walls here. You should have an advantage defending but you should also have to fight and take risks….

2. Mindlessly plopping down a bunch of siege is not a “defense plan” and should at best stall an attempt to take anything until defenders can arrive and an actual plan can be formed and executed… usually this involves actually “fighting”!

3. Generally we want more fighting and hearing more map chat about portals to the jumping puzzle and what pre-emptive siege needs put up and what siege needs “refreshed” (read that exploiting the timeout timer) is just kind of disappointing. I’d rather hear about troop movements, fights, and the natural “updating” of structures that you hold (like gaining of waypoints), myself…

All that being said, I think the design of arrow cart is it is supposed to be an “open field” siege and therefore it really needs to be doing a lot of damage if it’s working as intended….but frankly I still see a lot of them being fired from safety?

Personally I think what they did to AC’s is a step in the right direction. They just over did it a bit. I think 80% damage increase was a bit to much for the base damage of the AC’s. Once you get the AC mastery and siege damage boost they are very very powerful. I think some one said is was ticking for 3700 on them. (I’d like to note I don’t know the context of why it was ticking so high, they could be GC or up leveled or lying, the highest I saw on my self was ~1800) I think the base damage needs to be readjusted but not back to what it was pre patch.

I know there is a lot of crying to get it nerfed, I don’t disagree, I just hope they don’t nerf it to the ground. Change it to 60% damage (Instead of the 80% now) and see how that gos.

Chessrook.8643:

Yeah it’s pretty clear. ACs weren’t particularly useful and didn’t really pose much of a threat outside of narrow corridors like Pang or the paths to the SM Lord Room. Now they actually pose a threat to those in more open areas too (Still contained, but more open), giving smaller groups a better chance of survival.

The problem is abuse. That pic of 12 ACs on one door keeps popping up, and that pretty much says it all. I don’t know how often you’d really be able to MAN all those ACs, or how useful it would be when dealing with multiple broken walls or ranged catas/trebs, but the fact is it’s getting overused.

Underpowered and never useful, or overpowered and abused horribly? Which is worse?

I’ve seen many surprise golem rushes killed by 3-4 ACs on a garrison watergate. I’ve seen many huge zerg attacks on gates either wiped, or driven off by ACs inside towers and keeps (like…MANY many). I’ve seen many zerg-fights with arrow-carts dropped in the middle of the fighting field.

These were all before this patch.

They were PLENTY powerful before when used properly. Now? I have to wonder what in the world ANet was thinking.

To quote a famous line from a popular dungeon: “Your idea is just stupid and won’t work.”

Hickeroar.9734:

Chessrook.8643:

Yeah it’s pretty clear. ACs weren’t particularly useful and didn’t really pose much of a threat outside of narrow corridors like Pang or the paths to the SM Lord Room. Now they actually pose a threat to those in more open areas too (Still contained, but more open), giving smaller groups a better chance of survival.

The problem is abuse. That pic of 12 ACs on one door keeps popping up, and that pretty much says it all. I don’t know how often you’d really be able to MAN all those ACs, or how useful it would be when dealing with multiple broken walls or ranged catas/trebs, but the fact is it’s getting overused.

Underpowered and never useful, or overpowered and abused horribly? Which is worse?

I’ve seen many surprise golem rushes killed by 3-4 ACs on a garrison watergate. I’ve seen many huge zerg attacks on gates either wiped, or driven off by ACs inside towers and keeps (like…MANY many). I’ve seen many zerg-fights with arrow-carts dropped in the middle of the fighting field.

These were all before this patch.

They were PLENTY powerful before when used properly. Now? I have to wonder what in the world ANet was thinking.

To quote a famous line from a popular dungeon: “Your idea is just stupid and won’t work.”

Lol Detha, the best voice acting in any game so far lol

/sarcasm

Zosk.5609:

I still see a lot of them being fired from safety?

Weird, cause when I’m defending a tower, I always notice that the first thing the enemy does is run to it and kill any ACs with wall aoe. The only ones that survive are the ones behind the gate on ground level, and those can only fire at the gate. This is also the reason I’ve been recently using catas / trebs more, cause you can actually place those further back where they don’t get killed in the first 10 seconds of the siege.

As long as it’s so easy to take them down with wall aoe I don’t mind ACs being more powerful. Then at least it might be worth firing it that 2-3 times before it’s destroyed.

Veldan.4637:

Zosk.5609:

I still see a lot of them being fired from safety?

Weird, cause when I’m defending a tower, I always notice that the first thing the enemy does is run to it and kill any ACs with wall aoe. The only ones that survive are the ones behind the gate on ground level, and those can only fire at the gate. This is also the reason I’ve been recently using catas / trebs more, cause you can actually place those further back where they don’t get killed in the first 10 seconds of the siege.

As long as it’s so easy to take them down with wall aoe I don’t mind ACs being more powerful. Then at least it might be worth firing it that 2-3 times before it’s destroyed.

Traited an AC now has 3500 range. Good luck getting close enough to take them out now.

I just manged to plant 31 arrowcarts on the north gate of SM. 15 on the ramparts 10 below and 6 on the third tier. All were able to hit the gate where they were placed.

Note: Just because they arent built doesnt mean they cannot be built. The siege limit was not hit due to AC’s now being able to hit for 3500 range while the siege limit range is per 1000(or there about). Im fairly certain I could place more on the upper tier where the Cannon is also that can hit. (edit: I just placed 6)

Rampart – 15 AC – http://i.imgur.com/eG0HJVS.jpg
Below – 10 AC – http://i.imgur.com/aWN3vWT.jpg
3rd Tier – 6 AC – http://i.imgur.com/3kzw56n.jpg

THIS IS WHAT WE WANT!

Aneu.1748:

I just manged to plant 31 arrowcarts on the north gate of SM. 15 on the ramparts 10 below and 6 on the third tier. All were able to hit the gate where they were placed.

Note: Just because they arent built doesnt mean they cannot be built. The siege limit was not hit due to AC’s now being able to hit for 3500 range while the siege limit range is per 1000(or there about). Im fairly certain I could place more on the upper tier where the Cannon is also that can hit. (edit: I just placed 6)

Rampart – 15 AC – http://i.imgur.com/eG0HJVS.jpg
Below – 10 AC – http://i.imgur.com/aWN3vWT.jpg
3rd Tier – 6 AC – http://i.imgur.com/3kzw56n.jpg

THIS IS WHAT WE WANT!

I can see how having 30+ people defending each gate of Stonemist with an arrow cart would be overpowered. When there are 90+ people in Stonemist, I should be able to take it with rams or golems.

Aneu.1748:

I just manged to plant 31 arrowcarts on the north gate of SM. 15 on the ramparts 10 below and 6 on the third tier. All were able to hit the gate where they were placed.

Note: Just because they arent built doesnt mean they cannot be built. The siege limit was not hit due to AC’s now being able to hit for 3500 range while the siege limit range is per 1000(or there about). Im fairly certain I could place more on the upper tier where the Cannon is also that can hit. (edit: I just placed 6)

Rampart – 15 AC – http://i.imgur.com/eG0HJVS.jpg
Below – 10 AC – http://i.imgur.com/aWN3vWT.jpg
3rd Tier – 6 AC – http://i.imgur.com/3kzw56n.jpg

THIS IS WHAT WE WANT!

All of those can be taken out with a treb…1 treb. The 3rd floor ones require more effort, but all of the others are easily taken out without even leaving OL.

Now, if we could just get A-net to double the damage on cannons. (yes, I’m serious)

styx.7294:

Aneu.1748:

I just manged to plant 31 arrowcarts on the north gate of SM. 15 on the ramparts 10 below and 6 on the third tier. All were able to hit the gate where they were placed.

Note: Just because they arent built doesnt mean they cannot be built. The siege limit was not hit due to AC’s now being able to hit for 3500 range while the siege limit range is per 1000(or there about). Im fairly certain I could place more on the upper tier where the Cannon is also that can hit. (edit: I just placed 6)

Rampart – 15 AC – http://i.imgur.com/eG0HJVS.jpg
Below – 10 AC – http://i.imgur.com/aWN3vWT.jpg
3rd Tier – 6 AC – http://i.imgur.com/3kzw56n.jpg

THIS IS WHAT WE WANT!

I can see how having 30+ people defending each gate of Stonemist with an arrow cart would be overpowered. When there are 90+ people in Stonemist, I should be able to take it with rams or golems.

The problem you have is that the 10 below that wall is more than enough to stop anything breaking that gate and a Treb on the third tier is a counter to practically all siege.

“We’re luvin it!”

If you are going to buff one piece of siege you have to buff them all. As it stands all cata’s do is knock me down, I die from AC’S now. It was bad enough before when people would have multiple AC’S in a tower, but now it is just ridiculous.

I was defending the arrow cart buff at first, but after seeing them in wvw enough… I’d like to say that they are irritatingly over powered. They down people in seconds during tower/keep sieges.

Aneu.1748:

styx.7294:

Aneu.1748:

I just manged to plant 31 arrowcarts on the north gate of SM. 15 on the ramparts 10 below and 6 on the third tier. All were able to hit the gate where they were placed.

Note: Just because they arent built doesnt mean they cannot be built. The siege limit was not hit due to AC’s now being able to hit for 3500 range while the siege limit range is per 1000(or there about). Im fairly certain I could place more on the upper tier where the Cannon is also that can hit. (edit: I just placed 6)

Rampart – 15 AC – http://i.imgur.com/eG0HJVS.jpg
Below – 10 AC – http://i.imgur.com/aWN3vWT.jpg
3rd Tier – 6 AC – http://i.imgur.com/3kzw56n.jpg

THIS IS WHAT WE WANT!

I can see how having 30+ people defending each gate of Stonemist with an arrow cart would be overpowered. When there are 90+ people in Stonemist, I should be able to take it with rams or golems.

The problem you have is that the 10 below that wall is more than enough to stop anything breaking that gate and a Treb on the third tier is a counter to practically all siege.

“We’re luvin it!”

10 arrow carts were enough to drop any rams or golems beforehand too. Like, I get that the arrow cart change could be overboard (80% is a big leap) but before one arrow cart couldn’t punch through my guardian’s passive regen. Either way, contemplating scenarios of 30 arrow carts manned at one gate of Stonemist is.. not at all relevant (unless that’s actually somethin that happens in tier 1? – before the patch we found 4 arrow carts + 1 superior stopped 9 golems with a lil’ over 50% of reinforced gate left).

Veldan.4637:

Zosk.5609:

I still see a lot of them being fired from safety?

Weird, cause when I’m defending a tower, I always notice that the first thing the enemy does is run to it and kill any ACs with wall aoe. The only ones that survive are the ones behind the gate on ground level, and those can only fire at the gate. This is also the reason I’ve been recently using catas / trebs more, cause you can actually place those further back where they don’t get killed in the first 10 seconds of the siege.

As long as it’s so easy to take them down with wall aoe I don’t mind ACs being more powerful. Then at least it might be worth firing it that 2-3 times before it’s destroyed.

That is weird. Because not even counting Hills or SM, there’s tons of spots on keeps and towers that you can put an AC that can hit outside and no one can even see it from the outside, much less hit it. Even more now I’m sure with the range buff.

Except for PvD, catas were already the meta over rams entirely due to ACs. Now they’re buffed and its like… “Wake me up when the trebs are done” gameplay.

The cheapest piece of siege should not be a counter-everything siege. Assuming walls are taken down, now defense is just about building moar ACs at chokepoints, right? Oh wait, that’s how it already was before the buff. Now its just abusing broken mechanics for loot bags.

Perhaps it’s a tier thing, as I’m on the bottom tier. But I don’t see how people are dying so badly to ACs that weren’t dying to them before the patch. If I’m at a siege, and I see the red circle, I know I’m going to get hit with at least 3-5 AC barrages. I dodge. I preemptively cast my heal. I wait for the cripple so I can cleanse it instantly. I use Swiftness abilities to counter the Cripple if my Cleanse is down and run out of the AoE. I live (usually).

I did this before the patch. I do this after the patch. I almost never die to AC fire.

On the other hand, when I’m manning siege I noticed lots of people just stand there and take it. Ballista bolts to the face. AC barrages without dodging at all. Catapult stones dropping on their heads. They die really fast, and they’re usually chasing people when it happens. I rack up loads of kills from these guys and I have no idea why.

I’m not saying L2Dodge, because I honestly don’t know if that’s the issue. I’m asking what the issue is where I get loads of kills every time I use siege, but almost never die to it. Is it lag? Are people playing on really old/bad computers unable to see the circles or respond quickly enough? Is it a problem with the new WvW graphics options?

PinCushion.7390:

Perhaps it’s a tier thing, as I’m on the bottom tier. But I don’t see how people are dying so badly to ACs that weren’t dying to them before the patch. If I’m at a siege, and I see the red circle, I know I’m going to get hit with at least 3-5 AC barrages. I dodge. I preemptively cast my heal. I wait for the cripple so I can cleanse it instantly. I use Swiftness abilities to counter the Cripple if my Cleanse is down and run out of the AoE. I live (usually).

I did this before the patch. I do this after the patch. I almost never die to AC fire.

On the other hand, when I’m manning siege I noticed lots of people just stand there and take it. Ballista bolts to the face. AC barrages without dodging at all. Catapult stones dropping on their heads. They die really fast, and they’re usually chasing people when it happens. I rack up loads of kills from these guys and I have no idea why.

I’m not saying L2Dodge, because I honestly don’t know if that’s the issue. I’m asking what the issue is where I get loads of kills every time I use siege, but almost never die to it. Is it lag? Are people playing on really old/bad computers unable to see the circles or respond quickly enough? Is it a problem with the new WvW graphics options?

I agree. I don’t understand how they are dying either. Unless they are charging into it to destroy it. But still…

I’ve been playing on my Level 25 Ele and I don’t die to AC’s.