Guild Wars 2

I have a post coming soon about “balancing” professions, but I wanted to post this first because it is one of the “balancing” ideas I have that will need greater explanation.

The developers of City of Heroes did a really great job at making sure each class had access to certain features that made all classes more balanced, and one of those features were movement based skills. Having equal access to various movement based skills made it so each player could be competitive in player vs player modes, and across the game for that matter.

We all know there are unnecessary disparities with movement and positioning skills among professions, and we need not look any farther than the difference between a thief and necromancer… It’s these types of unnecessary disparities that need to be addressed, so I bring to you a combination of ideas from both City of Heroes and Guild Wars 2…

Idea 1- CoH power pools

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

“Power Pools are supplemental power sets available to all archetypes, beyond the primary and secondary power sets selected during character creation. A character may select powers from up to four power pools per build.”

Idea 2- Zephyrite Aspect Skills

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/a-guide-to-bazaar-of-the-four-winds/

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aspect

”What are Aspect skills?

The citizens of the Zephyr Sanctum (“Zephyrites,” as they call themselves) have developed a unique understanding of wind, lightning, and the sun. They have learned how to utilize these Aspects in their daily lives. By imbuing crystals with the energy of the Aspects, the Zephyrites are able to share a taste of this knowledge with others.”

The combined ideas…

Aspect Skill Pools

Aspect Skill Pools are supplemental slot skills available to all professions, beyond the normal set of slot skills for each profession. A character may select skills from up to two Aspect Skill Pools per build. Aspect Skill Pools and skills can be changed out of combat.

(Important notes: Unless otherwise noted, all utility aspect skills below will have common factors. 600 max range/units. No cooldown for usage. No outgoing damage. No stun break. No evade… These are meant to be purely movement based skills with no additional effects…

Elite dodge skills will override normal dodges, similar to how the Daredevil Grandmaster Traits function. These new dodges have unlimited use, but do NOT make use of evade as we know it. These elite dodges are designed to only provide a 50% damage reduction to all sources and do NOT have any extra effects such as outgoing damage or stun breaks tied to them.)

Aspects of the Zephyrites

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zephyrites

Utility Skills

*Aspect of Lightning- Passive skill. Global 25% cooldown reduction to all weapon and slot skills. Does not stack with other cooldown reduction traits.

*Aspect of Sun- Passive skill. In combat forward, strafing and backpedaling movement speeds are all 210 units.

*Aspect of Wind- Ground target skill. Gust of wind pushes 600 units.

*Elite Dodge Skill- Whirlwind when you dodge. 300 units. 50% damage reduction. No evade

Aspects of the Nuhoch

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nuhoch

Utility Skills

*Aspect of Balance- Passive skill. 25% chance to be immune to float, knockback, knockdown, launch, pull and sink effects.

*Aspect of Nuhoch- Passive skill. Jump forward 600 units.

*Aspect of Potoni the Massive- Ground target skill. Jump 600 units. Jump height is doubled.

*Elite Dodge Skill- Leap when you dodge. 300 units. 50% damage reduction. No evade.

Aspects of the Itzel

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Itzel

Utility Skills

*Aspect of Whatever- Passive skill. 25% reduction to all critical hits.

*Aspect of Itzel – Passive Skill. Stealth perception 600 units.

*Aspect of Bladedancer- Ground target skill. Teleport 600 units.

*Elite Dodge Skill- Teleport when you dodge. 300 units. 50% damage reduction. No evade

Aspects of the Exalted

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exalted

Utility Skills

*Aspect of Flight- Passive skill. 25% reduction to all AoE ground target damage

*Aspect of Exalted- Passive skill. “Water walking” and no falling damage.

*Aspect of Tarnished Sage- Ground target skill. Hover 600 units.

*Elite Dodge Skill- Become a golden ball of light when you dodge. 300 units. 50% damage reduction. No evade

Aspects of the Dwarves

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dwarf

Utility Skills

*Aspect of Stone- 25% reduction to all condition damage.

*Aspect of Dwarf- 25% Increased skill speed.

*Aspect of Jalis Ironhammer- Ground target skill. Charge 600 units.

*Elite Dodge Skill- Charge when you dodge. 300 units. 50% damage reduction. No evade

… These are just the core concept ideas and names, just wanted to toss it out there. Will have some edits as well.

Coming from a newly-mained reaper who used to almost exclusively play thief.

Necromancer and reaper both have the tools to kill a thief if the thief commits to killing the necro. Of course, this assumes the necromancer builds off-meta (gasp) and builds for a little mobility instead of sacrificing literally every trait and utility it has to pump out more condition damage or soak more damage. The daredevil in particular counters the meta condi reaper. Play power, play smart, play aggressively, and kill a thief. I usually charge thieves when on my reaper because I think they’re the easiest profession to kill. Druid, Berserker, and Scrapper are much more problematic because they have superior mobility and can commit to an engage/apply pressure back and also still deal more damage than they take.

You can’t provide all professions with the same mobility – especially when comparing the necromancer to the thief – due to other differences between the professions. The thief has no source of 1200 range damage while the necromancer’s core shroud AA on a power build can hit an upwards of 8k each, has great control and nuke potential on staff, and said necromancer has an effective health pool of 3x/4x the thief and substantially better hit-soaking capabilities.

It’s also important to recognize that it’s these differences which define the class’ use in WvW. Necromancers are heavily-utilized in group play, while thieves aren’t. The thief is good in small-scale, and the meta necro options are designed not to flourish in these environments but instead work as hyoercarries in group play, be it small or large.

With some blatantly overpowered aspects of the elite specs aside, I think there’s a great spectrum of which professions can do what. Elite specs were also intended to be designed to change some of these slightly – the matter is just right now the elites are massively power-creeped, and the game is suffering.

I wouldn’t want this in wvw. some professions could use a tad bit more/less mobility sure, but we don’t need a ton of new skills for everyone.

Bolded responses.

DeceiverX.8361:

Coming from a newly-mained reaper who used to almost exclusively play thief.

Necromancer and reaper both have the tools to kill a thief if the thief commits to killing the necro. Of course, this assumes the necromancer builds off-meta (gasp) and builds for a little mobility instead of sacrificing literally every trait and utility it has to pump out more condition damage or soak more damage. The daredevil in particular counters the meta condi reaper. Play power, play smart, play aggressively, and kill a thief. I usually charge thieves when on my reaper because I think they’re the easiest profession to kill. Druid, Berserker, and Scrapper are much more problematic because they have superior mobility and can commit to an engage/apply pressure back and also still deal more damage than they take.

That has nothing to do with the topic. Also, Thief is easy vs necro due to all the movement skills, superior positioning, stealth, faster and higher consitent damage output

You can’t provide all professions with the same mobility – especially when comparing the necromancer to the thief – due to other differences between the professions. The thief has no source of 1200 range damage while the necromancer’s core shroud AA on a power build can hit an upwards of 8k each, has great control and nuke potential on staff, and said necromancer has an effective health pool of 3x/4x the thief and substantially better hit-soaking capabilities.

Sure you can provide movement skills like these to all professions. Besides, under this scenario thief still has access to the most mobility, plus stealth. You main thief and are concerned with a 300 unit difference in range with all of its movement skills?

It’s also important to recognize that it’s these differences which define the class’ use in WvW. Necromancers are heavily-utilized in group play, while thieves aren’t. The thief is good in small-scale, and the meta necro options are designed not to flourish in these environments but instead work as hyoercarries in group play, be it small or large.

Skills define the class, but classes shouldn’t be defined by their lack of movement in a heavily movement based game. See that necro pve rp designed greatsword? Yeah… it’s pve rp stuff like that which hurts competitive play.

With some blatantly overpowered aspects of the elite specs aside, I think there’s a great spectrum of which professions can do what. Elite specs were also intended to be designed to change some of these slightly – the matter is just right now the elites are massively power-creeped, and the game is suffering.

It’s not op when all professions have access to them…

Edit- and you can have unique classes with access to some form of movement skills… https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes

Random vid of city of heroes…

Edit 2- and I do like this statement because it highlights the spirit of this thread… "Necromancer and reaper both have the tools to kill a thief if the thief commits to killing the necro. … Movement and positioning are core designs of combat in this game, and there are unnecessary disparities in this department like I said.

Hmm I think you fail to grasp the ideals of which the game mode is built around, it’s server vs server, squad vs squad, teams vs teams. Although 1v1s do happen and I do enjoy them myself too, it’s not built around em.

Every class has it’s weaknesses and strengths, unfavorable and outright almost unwinnable matchups and easier matchups. (Much like 5v5 PvP).
It’s about understanding what matchups you can take, when to out rotate or outnumber to win. In both small and larger scale combat. It’s about teaming up and together as a team aknowledging the weak spots and needs for support.

Like the example necro/reaper with its lack of mobility but capability for massive output of dps. A good team knows this and protects it’s necros by not overextending or moving too fast and leaving them vulnerable.

WVW has some serious balance issues I agree, and in my opinion would require a separate balance from PvE and PvP. But these mentioned above are not the issues.

@James

I’m fully familiar with the original design intent that led us to the awful state professions are in for wvw and structured pvp. I also know the devs are changing professions and improving the quality of gameplay…

All Jon P quotes are from this site published on 6/10/2011…

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

*"Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers, it wasn’t my job to talk to others about it directly, so I’m unsure how heavily other people were consulted.  I know some were skeptical and were worried. A lot of people like to play healers and liked to play monks in Guild Wars 1. That being said, it’s not a secret around the office that I do not like to play healers, so I wasn’t too sad to see them go!"

Now we have Druid. Improved healing Ele. Ventari.

http://dulfy.net/2015/09/25/gw2-druid-ranger-elite-specialization-livestream-reveal/

*"Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose. You see a lot of sports that are defensive, like American and European football, and you see that defence wins all the time and that defence is often the best offence. We’ve developed a system where, hopefully, offence is the best defence. That you don’t want to say “what are they doing, how can I counter them?” instead you want to say “I’m doing something and I’m doing it well enough that they have to counter me.” I think that’s a much more interesting approach, as it’s then not about reacting but becomes that the best players are trying to make others react to what they are doing, which creates a more dynamic environment."

Now look at shift from “built offensively for a reason”…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZHhJQn0B8

Irenio… “The berserker meta has been great fun, but not super healthy for the game” and “Berserker meta is going away.”

*"Jon P: I think the ranger pets are terrible right now, no one would argue with that! If you wanted to talk about least played profession, the ranger would probably be it. We’ve been making A.I changes which are slowly propagating to the pets right now, while we’ve also been looking into more radical things with the pets.
Right now the pets feel like this thing you have, rather than a part of your character. Like those other professions that have undergone some radical changes, I’m hoping by the next time we show the game, or certainly before we ship, the ranger pet will have that synergy. That’s one of the biggest failings we have right now. For those that are concerned, we are also concerned but we aren’t concerned that we won’t fix it, just not right now. We are going to make it feel synergistic, but it just takes time."

We all know how core issues have not been addressed, and this ranger pet quote highlights those lingering design issues.

…The devs had issues with balancing secondary skills in Guild Wars, so we didn’t get them here, but somehow the devs who created City of Heroes did not have such issues with Power Pool secondary skills and max level Incarnate skills for all players…

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Fighting
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Flight
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leadership
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leaping
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Medicine
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Presence
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Speed
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Teleportation

Also, https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Incarnate_System

The devs from City of Heroes eliminated certain disparities, like access to basic movement related skills, so each class and powerset was enjoyable to play and could contribute equally, all while making each class unique and distinctive… Meanwhile here, a decade later, GW2 profession designs, skill designs, “balance” designs, role designs, UI designs…. and much more…. are not even 1/10 of the quality of a game that ran parallel to Guild Wars…

RP PvE profession “balancing” designs are part of the reason why wvw and structured pvp are not doing better, and this movement topic is a part of that “balancing” professions equation because the foundation of combat was built on movement and positioning.

Edit- and to address your “gw2 not built around 1v1” comment… Neither was City of Heroes, but they still managed to make sure ALL classes had access to movement skills, roughly equal healing sources, ways to deal with CC, access to the same secondary skills… to eliminate unnecessary issues. On top of that, teamwork roles and gameplay was far far far superior to anything this game currently has to offer, so much so, that the devs are finally now trying to make a bigger push to improve spvp teamwork judging by a statement from the recent ama.

I don’t main thief anymore, swagger. I’ve pretty much been maining power reaper since HoT released.

Thief has an advantage against reaper, but it’s not as ridiculously bad as many complain unless they spec for no mobility and then try and chase. The thief absolutely has to engage to deal enough damage to kill a necro unless if playing P/P because its only other sources of damage come from melee attacks. A power reaper can kill a thief 100-0 in under two seconds as well as keep pace enough if the necromancer decides to build for it. I do it very frequently because after years if playing the thief I understand the significance of its weaknesses and how to exploit them. Who knew, knowledge of a profession would allow for an understanding on how to beat them.

Mirror its disengages and be ready for re-engages. Watch the terrain for BP rings. Have a weapon available which can deal with a melee engage and punish the thief – I prefer GS – and keep your fingers ready to stunbreak and keep track of how long ago it last BV’ed.

Power reaper can shut down an engaging thief at every turn if it decides to play a more aggressive build. I see too many necros and reapers complaining they can’t deal with thieves when they themselves don’t try anywhere in their build to provide counter-burst, good stunbreaks and mitigation, a stealth-tracker, a ranged kit, or bumped mobility. Daredevil is cheesy and forgiving in its own right, but it can be dealt with quite easily on the build-level in most cases. It has advantages, but it’s like whining that DH doesn’t auto-shut-down meta necromancer.

If you want to criticize class differences based on certain aspects of superiority, I’d assume you’d make the trade of giving up life force and shroud for more mobility, correct? Because that’s pretty much what you’re requesting.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t main thief anymore, swagger. I’ve pretty much been maining power reaper since HoT released.

Thief has an advantage against reaper, but it’s not as ridiculously bad as many complain unless they spec for no mobility and then try and chase. The thief absolutely has to engage to deal enough damage to kill a necro unless if playing P/P because its only other sources of damage come from melee attacks. A power reaper can kill a thief 100-0 in under two seconds as well as keep pace enough if the necromancer decides to build for it. I do it very frequently because after years if playing the thief I understand the significance of its weaknesses and how to exploit them. Who knew, knowledge of a profession would allow for an understanding on how to beat them.

Mirror its disengages and be ready for re-engages. Watch the terrain for BP rings. Have a weapon available which can deal with a melee engage and punish the thief – I prefer GS – and keep your fingers ready to stunbreak and keep track of how long ago it last BV’ed.

Power reaper can shut down an engaging thief at every turn if it decides to play a more aggressive build. I see too many necros and reapers complaining they can’t deal with thieves when they themselves don’t try anywhere in their build to provide counter-burst, good stunbreaks and mitigation, a stealth-tracker, a ranged kit, or bumped mobility. Daredevil is cheesy and forgiving in its own right, but it can be dealt with quite easily on the build-level in most cases. It has advantages, but it’s like whining that DH doesn’t auto-shut-down meta necromancer.

If you want to criticize class differences based on certain aspects of superiority, I’d assume you’d make the trade of giving up life force and shroud for more mobility, correct? Because that’s pretty much what you’re requesting.

I really think you need to reread my comments in the thread, particularly the one above your post.

This is not about who can kill who in a duel thread, it’s about movement based skills. Would you understand more If I said disparity in access to movement based skills between Druid and Necro? Or Warrior and Necro? Or Druid and Engineer? Or Warrior and Ele? Or Guardian and Necro?… Those questions starting to ring a bell as to the topic?

Again, read the post above yours and absorb it a bit more please.

Swagger.1459:

*"Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose. You see a lot of sports that are defensive, like American and European football, and you see that defence wins all the time and that defence is often the best offence. We’ve developed a system where, hopefully, offence is the best defence. That you don’t want to say “what are they doing, how can I counter them?” instead you want to say “I’m doing something and I’m doing it well enough that they have to counter me.” I think that’s a much more interesting approach, as it’s then not about reacting but becomes that the best players are trying to make others react to what they are doing, which creates a more dynamic environment."

Now look at shift from “built offensively for a reason”…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZHhJQn0B8

Irenio… “The berserker meta has been great fun, but not super healthy for the game” and “Berserker meta is going away.”

*"Jon P: I think the ranger pets are terrible right now, no one would argue with that! If you wanted to talk about least played profession, the ranger would probably be it. We’ve been making A.I changes which are slowly propagating to the pets right now, while we’ve also been looking into more radical things with the pets.
Right now the pets feel like this thing you have, rather than a part of your character. Like those other professions that have undergone some radical changes, I’m hoping by the next time we show the game, or certainly before we ship, the ranger pet will have that synergy. That’s one of the biggest failings we have right now. For those that are concerned, we are also concerned but we aren’t concerned that we won’t fix it, just not right now. We are going to make it feel synergistic, but it just takes time."

We all know how core issues have not been addressed, and this ranger pet quote highlights those lingering design issues.

…The devs had issues with balancing secondary skills in Guild Wars, so we didn’t get them here, but somehow the devs who created City of Heroes did not have such issues with Power Pool secondary skills and max level Incarnate skills for all players…

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Fighting
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Flight
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leadership
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leaping
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Medicine
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Presence
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Speed
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Teleportation

Also, https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Incarnate_System

The devs from City of Heroes eliminated certain disparities, like access to basic movement related skills, so each class and powerset was enjoyable to play and could contribute equally, all while making each class unique and distinctive… Meanwhile here, a decade later, GW2 profession designs, skill designs, “balance” designs, role designs, UI designs…. and much more…. are not even 1/10 of the quality of a game that ran parallel to Guild Wars…

RP PvE profession “balancing” designs are part of the reason why wvw and structured pvp are not doing better, and this movement topic is a part of that “balancing” professions equation because the foundation of combat was built on movement and positioning.

Edit- and to address your “gw2 not built around 1v1” comment… Neither was City of Heroes, but they still managed to make sure ALL classes had access to movement skills, roughly equal healing sources, ways to deal with CC, access to the same secondary skills… to eliminate unnecessary issues. On top of that, teamwork roles and gameplay was far far far superior to anything this game currently has to offer, so much so, that the devs are finally now trying to make a bigger push to improve spvp teamwork judging by a statement from the recent ama.

I would not say that GW2 elements, such as you describe, are, “not 1/10 the quality,” of those in CoH. I might be inclined to say that CoH, including the elements you describe, was (in my opinion of course) clearly a stoneage product, as good for its time as a piece of sharpened bone was for its time, but long since past being considered a point of comparison.

There are plenty of former CoH players out there with a grudge against GW2 because they blame the cancellation of their pet game on NCSoft’s funding of this one. Their choice I suppose. But is this the place for complaints about how GW2 is not 1/10th the game CoH was? Not really in my opinion. The City of Titans, Ship of Heroes, and othe Fan sites, and fanfic sites for CoH fans are available.

Swagger.1459:

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t main thief anymore, swagger. I’ve pretty much been maining power reaper since HoT released.

Thief has an advantage against reaper, but it’s not as ridiculously bad as many complain unless they spec for no mobility and then try and chase. The thief absolutely has to engage to deal enough damage to kill a necro unless if playing P/P because its only other sources of damage come from melee attacks. A power reaper can kill a thief 100-0 in under two seconds as well as keep pace enough if the necromancer decides to build for it. I do it very frequently because after years if playing the thief I understand the significance of its weaknesses and how to exploit them. Who knew, knowledge of a profession would allow for an understanding on how to beat them.

Mirror its disengages and be ready for re-engages. Watch the terrain for BP rings. Have a weapon available which can deal with a melee engage and punish the thief – I prefer GS – and keep your fingers ready to stunbreak and keep track of how long ago it last BV’ed.

Power reaper can shut down an engaging thief at every turn if it decides to play a more aggressive build. I see too many necros and reapers complaining they can’t deal with thieves when they themselves don’t try anywhere in their build to provide counter-burst, good stunbreaks and mitigation, a stealth-tracker, a ranged kit, or bumped mobility. Daredevil is cheesy and forgiving in its own right, but it can be dealt with quite easily on the build-level in most cases. It has advantages, but it’s like whining that DH doesn’t auto-shut-down meta necromancer.

If you want to criticize class differences based on certain aspects of superiority, I’d assume you’d make the trade of giving up life force and shroud for more mobility, correct? Because that’s pretty much what you’re requesting.

I really think you need to reread my comments in the thread, particularly the one above your post.

This is not about who can kill who in a duel thread, it’s about movement based skills. Would you understand more If I said disparity in access to movement based skills between Druid and Necro? Or Warrior and Necro? Or Druid and Engineer? Or Warrior and Ele? Or Guardian and Necro?… Those questions starting to ring a bell as to the topic?

Again, read the post above yours and absorb it a bit more please.

And there’s enough mobility and catch potential on the reaper if you play it right; again, this is a failure to build well; my reaper can chase down warriors and thieves fairly well and keep up in sustained encounters. The difference between a necro and a thief is that the necro has better tools to deal with hard engages while the thief is inherently better at burst-mobility disengages to avoid the negatives which come with engaging. If anything, the thief’s engagement tools on D/P are overtuned from Shadow Shot allowing it to conserve its mobility for strictly disengages, rather than its raw mobility alone.

The only scenario to suggest mobility is overpowered is in the context of a fight where you can’t catch someone; otherwise it’s all irrelevant. And the reaper, the most notorious profession having issues with high-mobility targets, has access to that mobility.

If you suddenly handed out tons of movement to the necromancer and others alike, you’d better be ready for astronomical nerfs to the necro in pretty much every other area, or tremendous buffs to everything else for the most part.

The specs play differently, and I don’t really see why or how this is a problem.