Guild Wars 2

yes.. massive spam damage 2k~5k on 3600 toughness with 21k health, thiefs stealths @ first hit suffered recover his bar spam again hide recover spam again, as mainly a mace guardian cant do much.

P.S i did the same when roamming with thief and guardian are my 1st target becouse when he is w/o boons its a dammn kitty easy kill.

sometimes it takes a few extra seconds to kill but that is a way to play a bit more with the meat.

Damage output is the only thing that matters in gw2

90% of wubwub thieves are bad and predictable. Play a bit of tpvp as a thief and you can counter them perfectly. I play a roamer warr and if they don’t have a stunbreak ready when they engage me they are 100% dead unless they play non-glass sustainbuild or smth nonsense like high toughness p/d, but that build is not a threat to me anyways. If they play full zerk a single whirlwind will take around 50%+ of their hp.

I’m mostly zerker with few knight pieces, melandru runes and ofc the imba condi dura reduction food. Hard CC/stunlock eats thieves for breakfast.

Currently making my thief into the same evasion spec I use in tPvP to try it out in wubwub.

Aberrant.6749:

Raestloz.7134:

I don’t know, maybe I’m the only one thinking that running away and stealthing away are two entirely different concept? Because when my ele run away, every single enemy can see where I’m going, while a thief can stealth and for all you know, he probably is still behind you. I tried, I couldn’t find “Smoke Field” skill on my ele.

No, you don’t have control. What you do have is a chance to fight the thief. Everything else: when to engage, when to disengage, is left to the Thief. You can try to run away, that much is certain, but whether you can fight the thief or not is solely on the Thief’s discretion. You can’t chase the Thief: if they don’t want you to fight them, you cannot fight them.

Ergo, all the rewards without a lick of risk.

If they are DD you control when they C&D… learn the animation and you can dodge that.

If they are DP you watch for when they raise their pistol. Avoid that blind shot, then cc them. The heartseeker leap finisher won’t finish and they won’t gain stealth.

In both cases they lose a lot of ini. That’s the lifeblood of a thief. A thief with less ini can do less. A thief with no ini is a dead thief.

If they do stealth then you control the fight by your own movement. Make it hard for them to backstab you and you’ll know where they are from that alone.

Stealth isn’t invuln… you can still hit them when they are stealthed (watch your mele auto chain).

I have no problem predicting them on my eng… who only has the toolkit for mele… because I understand the thief class well having plaid one before.

You just need to learn what thieves do and how to act/react in that given situation. there is prediction involved, but I control what’s going on even when they are stealthed (unless they just run away).

There is only no risk to the thief if you act like grazing cattle once they try to stealth (which is what far too many people do).

The thief can disengage when they want to… but that’s part of the class design. In fact… they NEED to disengage and re-engage frequently. They lack staying power. That’s the same reason why they aren’t often wanted for group compositions.

The trick to killing a thief is to make him over commit and try to disengage when it’s already too late.

Even if they do get away… so what. What is that solo roaming gank thief really going to do that matters in WvW?

Good effort and mostly correct but simply ignoring the issues:
Knowing the CnD animation doesn’t get you any interaction when it is used on neutrals/walls.
With very limited exceptions d/p can go invisible before are finished with avoiding projectile and casting your cc.
Trying to avoid/mitigate backstab damage does not equal “controlling the fight” and when the thief uses stealth to reset you control even less.

If you have no trouble at all with hitting invisible targets you are either facing only very bad thieves or you are absolutely awesome at predicting, in that case I recommend playing the stock market and you will be rich in no time.

Game rewards brainless goons to roll that class and do very well against mediocare players who in their part need to play perfectly just to avoid instant death. Thief on the other hand can mess up fight hundered times because he had to scratch his balls in real life or mouse batteries died, and still get away. I am sorry but if you kitten up in PvP, you should lose, your toon needs to die. That, does not happen for thieves in WvWvW. This is why I dont play much Gw2 PvP and say that WoW does it better, because if you mess up in WoW PvP, you will die.

Aberrant.6749:

… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away…

/facepalm

My suggestion don’t roll into town with a powerful zerg class and complain when a powerful solo class destroys you in solo play.

Want to find the real OP in the game, look no further than Alt Healing/Retaliation. Easily responsible for 10x (and probably more like 1000x) kills over stealth. The first Ultimate Dominator wasn’t a thief and to my knowledge no thief is even close.

Erzian.5218:

Good effort and mostly correct but simply ignoring the issues:
Knowing the CnD animation doesn’t get you any interaction when it is used on neutrals/walls.
With very limited exceptions d/p can go invisible before are finished with avoiding projectile and casting your cc.
Trying to avoid/mitigate backstab damage does not equal “controlling the fight” and when the thief uses stealth to reset you control even less.

If you have no trouble at all with hitting invisible targets you are either facing only very bad thieves or you are absolutely awesome at predicting, in that case I recommend playing the stock market and you will be rich in no time.

C&D off of walls is a bug which they’ve been trying to fix (and thought they had fixed but it didn’t work. That bug should get fixed. I’m also all for removing the vast majority of the random deer etc… that’s more for rally reasons, but it would help people who are having problems with the C&D off of random things type stuff.

Vs D/P if you have any quick invuln/block/projectile destruction skills/reflection skills you can stop the blind and cc them. You’re right not all classes can do this though.

If you know how to you can control the movement of the thief with your own movement. They need to get behind you to backstab. That’s why I consider that I am controlling them (controlling where they need to go to successfully backstab me).

I am pretty good at prediction… but those prediction are based on having plaid a thief and know how they behave. Seriously… it’s not like I’m fighting the predator in a jungle that I just dropped into. The game I plaid before GW2 also required a bit of combat prediction and fast reactions to animation ques… so I’m probably a bit more practiced at it than the typical WvWer (who are generally casuals).

I can predict the TP pretty kitten well… because I know how players think in general. But stock market… is far less predictable than either of these… and I can’t compete with computers making split second stock trades… that’s more akin to me playing a FPS vs a bot lol

Deniara Devious.3948:

In order to fix this rather broken meta, I think we would really need to rethink stealth as it is (my suggestion make stealthed players appear semi-transparent to their enemies, just like they are rendered to their enemies). The critical damage % needs to be capped to same levels as it is possible with optimal tpvp gear, thus no +110% crit , but something closer to +60 max. Note that these suggested changes would apply to all professions.

How about this as a fix to Thieves and Stealth, Either:

A. Give them a debuff while in stealth, they deal 50% less damage. This way, they will have to open up in normal attacks before they can burst giving you enough time t know what the hell is going on – Could even make it so it stacks, the more time in stealth the less damage they will do

B. Give them a Cool down on stealth, like they come out of stealth and they cant re-enter for X number of seconds (5would be reasonable)

C. Remove the initiative crap and give the skills they have an actual cool down, thus they wont be perma stealthed thieves anymore

Thieves being able to jump in and out of stealth at the blink of an eye is seriously broken. Either give then a debuff while they are in stealth or give them a cool down on using Stealth skills

Stealth is not op.

Stealth with 25% movement speed, 900 range ports, blinds, shadow step, and the damage output is OP.

I was teasing a guild thief who is a big roamer about spamming HS. He said “every class has a skill they spam”. I explained that no class has a skill that hits for 3k+ that they can cast 4 times in 4 seconds. Laughed my kitten off. It is a class with the lowest skill cap when it comes to roaming for a reason, the mobility, stealth and damage.

Want a fix? When stealthed, reduce movement speed by 25%. Or give 2 classes the ability to see/break enemy stealth. A trait, or utility or w/e. Doesn’t matter.
Boom. Done. If stealth isn’t a crutch that you lean on, you will have no problem with the change right?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How about this as a fix to Thieves and Stealth

Lets keep in mind thieves are NOT particularly good at sPvP, PvE or in zergs. One could argue they aren’t even average in those three aspects of the game. The ONLY place they excel is in solo play. That is it… one place. So the “fix” is to remove the one place the class excels. Sorry, the answer is and should be no.

The “fix” is simple and I will state it again. Stop taking powerful PvE, sPvP and zerg classes/builds into solo WvW and expect to best a class built around solo WvW play.

Straegen.2938:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How about this as a fix to Thieves and Stealth

Lets keep in mind thieves are NOT particularly good at sPvP, PvE or in zergs. One could argue they aren’t even average in those three aspects of the game. The ONLY place they excel is in solo play. That is it… one place. So the “fix” is to remove the one place the class excels. Sorry, the answer is and should be no.

The “fix” is simple and I will state it again. Stop taking powerful PvE, sPvP and zerg classes/builds into solo WvW and expect to best a class built around solo WvW play.

The last i checked it isnt just solo they do this, i have seen groups of 5-10 thieves all running the same noob-fest perma stealth builds doing it. The class is broken BECAUSE of the perma stealth, increased movement speed and the stupidly broken damage. ONE (or more) of them MUST be changed.

It is that simple.

You don’t have to be squishy to get destroyed by back stab GC thieves..

You don’t need to be squishy to be dropped instantly by two targets you can’t see half the time.

The problem is thieves can get away with being glass cannons. The sooner the devs nerf stealth : revealed when hit, Significant restealth inhibition- the sooner wvw will be fun for everyone and people will stay.

The only people they are serving are those who rely on a class -thief- to carry them. Guess what..once more people leave, those players will leave too.

But again Anet devs were known to leave classes OP in GW1 while they were playing them. Who knows..

Whomever is looking after the thief class balance is a joke and will be remembered as such for future MMOs to come.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The last i checked it isnt just solo they do this, i have seen groups of 5-10 thieves all running the same noob-fest perma stealth builds doing it. The class is broken BECAUSE of the perma stealth, increased movement speed and the stupidly broken damage. ONE (or more) of them MUST be changed. It is that simple.

Except it isn’t that simple. Teams that drop a mix of fields, group heals, control, boons, AoE and conditions win more often than not. Guardian retaliation, alt healing, control and shouts are far more dangerous in skirmish play than stealth and spike damage. Ele AoE and fields, also incredibly powerful in skirmish. Thieves struggle to stay on top of teams dropping crazy amounts of control and AoE.

There are a few thieves that play astonishingly well (EBay has a S/D D/D thief that is amazing) but most of them are solo because the thief is primarily a solo class with very limited cross class benefit. They don’t do well under heavy AoE without a lot of other class support.

That said my point still stands… the thief class excels in pretty much only ONE aspect of the game (solo WvW). Just because a necro (who kills vast swarms of people in zergs) or similar zerg class cannot go toe-to-toe with a thief 1v1 is intentional and IMO correct. Classes have their roles and for the thief it is WvW 1v1 roaming and skirmish support. Want to argue the ranger and engi get short ends of a stick, I am with you.

Omnitek.3876:

Stealth is not op.

Stealth with 25% movement speed, 900 range ports, blinds, shadow step, and the damage output is OP.

I was teasing a guild thief who is a big roamer about spamming HS. He said “every class has a skill they spam”. I explained that no class has a skill that hits for 3k+ that they can cast 4 times in 4 seconds. Laughed my kitten off. It is a class with the lowest skill cap when it comes to roaming for a reason, the mobility, stealth and damage.

Want a fix? When stealthed, reduce movement speed by 25%. Or give 2 classes the ability to see/break enemy stealth. A trait, or utility or w/e. Doesn’t matter.
Boom. Done. If stealth isn’t a crutch that you lean on, you will have no problem with the change right?

Excuse me while I use a defensive skill while your mate spams HS and does no dmg, leaving him out of ini and can only auto attack…

At least other classes can just weapon swap when I do that.

Straegen.2938:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The last i checked it isnt just solo they do this, i have seen groups of 5-10 thieves all running the same noob-fest perma stealth builds doing it. The class is broken BECAUSE of the perma stealth, increased movement speed and the stupidly broken damage. ONE (or more) of them MUST be changed. It is that simple.

Except it isn’t that simple. Teams that drop fields, group heals, boons, AoE and conditions win almost every time. Guardian retaliation, alt healing and shouts are far more dangerous in skirmish play than stealth.

There are a few thieves that play astonishingly well (EBay has a S/D D/D thief that is amazing) but most of them are solo because the thief is primarily a solo class with very limited cross class benefit.

That said my point still stands… the thief class excels in pretty much only ONE aspect of the game (solo WvW). Just because a necro (who kills vast swarms of people in zergs) or similar zerg class cannot go toe-to-toe with a thief 1v1 is intentional and IMO correct. Classes have their roles and for the thief it is WvW 1v1 roaming and skirmish support. Want to argue the ranger and engi get short ends of a stick, I am with you.

so because to YOU (which is wrong by the way) that you think they only excel in one area it means that it is perfectly fine for them to be so obscenely overpowered?

A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around. Why? the obscene spike damage combined with the broken stealth means they could easily target the same people, kill that person in SECONDS and repeat the process, might be harder against Bunkers but when they have the obscene damage, broken stealth and the 25% speed increase they will win in more situations then they lose.

If they are so weak elsewhere (which they aren’t) buff these areas and nerf Stealth, Damage and movement speed.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Deniara Devious.3948:

In order to fix this rather broken meta, I think we would really need to rethink stealth as it is (my suggestion make stealthed players appear semi-transparent to their enemies, just like they are rendered to their enemies). The critical damage % needs to be capped to same levels as it is possible with optimal tpvp gear, thus no +110% crit , but something closer to +60 max. Note that these suggested changes would apply to all professions.

How about this as a fix to Thieves and Stealth, Either:

A. Give them a debuff while in stealth, they deal 50% less damage. This way, they will have to open up in normal attacks before they can burst giving you enough time t know what the hell is going on – Could even make it so it stacks, the more time in stealth the less damage they will do

B. Give them a Cool down on stealth, like they come out of stealth and they cant re-enter for X number of seconds (5would be reasonable)

C. Remove the initiative crap and give the skills they have an actual cool down, thus they wont be perma stealthed thieves anymore

Thieves being able to jump in and out of stealth at the blink of an eye is seriously broken. Either give then a debuff while they are in stealth or give them a cool down on using Stealth skills

I do not know where to begin with the stupidity of this post.

A. If you do this you better buff the hell out of the thiefs skills when not in stealth. It also removes the whole point of the class and turns it into a warrior that can make himself invisible for some time.

B. this made me /facepalm. This mechanic already exists it’s called revealed. Since you don’t even know this I can see why you have such a misinformed post.

C. The whole point of initiative is so that skills can be reused. I am not even going to begin to go into how much this would kitten over the class and force an entire remake of the class.

just another “dont nerf my op class” from a kittened thread starter that think stealth is not broken

TheAmpca.1753:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Deniara Devious.3948:

In order to fix this rather broken meta, I think we would really need to rethink stealth as it is (my suggestion make stealthed players appear semi-transparent to their enemies, just like they are rendered to their enemies). The critical damage % needs to be capped to same levels as it is possible with optimal tpvp gear, thus no +110% crit , but something closer to +60 max. Note that these suggested changes would apply to all professions.

How about this as a fix to Thieves and Stealth, Either:

A. Give them a debuff while in stealth, they deal 50% less damage. This way, they will have to open up in normal attacks before they can burst giving you enough time t know what the hell is going on – Could even make it so it stacks, the more time in stealth the less damage they will do

B. Give them a Cool down on stealth, like they come out of stealth and they cant re-enter for X number of seconds (5would be reasonable)

C. Remove the initiative crap and give the skills they have an actual cool down, thus they wont be perma stealthed thieves anymore

Thieves being able to jump in and out of stealth at the blink of an eye is seriously broken. Either give then a debuff while they are in stealth or give them a cool down on using Stealth skills

I do not know where to begin with the stupidity of this post.

A. If you do this you better buff the hell out of the thiefs skills when not in stealth. It also removes the whole point of the class and turns it into a warrior that can make himself invisible for some time.

B. this made me /facepalm. This mechanic already exists it’s called revealed. Since you don’t even know this I can see why you have such a misinformed post.

C. The whole point of initiative is so that skills can be reused. I am not even going to begin to go into how much this would kitten over the class and force an entire remake of the class.

A – They do alot of damage as it is, using this method would stop the noob-fest stealth 2second kills.

B – This would stop all the Perma-Stealth thieves

C – Initiative was a failed experiment from Anet, its clear to see

Of course, arguing all of this to thieves is like talking to a wall.

Yogi.9410:

just another “dont nerf my op class” from a kittened thread starter that think stealth is not broken

THIS. trying to argue with a thief that relies ONLY on the broken mechanics of the class (perma stealth, combat speed and obscene damage) is not going to end well and would be more useful to talk to a wall.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

*A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around

No… the synergy that varying classes can provide will drastically mitigate the burst and CC thieves. Any thief that gets focused would die very very quickly. That’s the reason why in GvG 10v10’s (etc) you don’t see thieves very often… and most certainly never all thieves. Unless they are just a group of roaming cattle the thieves would get owned hard.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

THIS. trying to argue with a thief that relies ONLY on the broken mechanics of the class (perma stealth, combat speed and obscene damage) is not going to end well and would be more useful to talk to a wall.

I would put it the other way around… that some one that thinks that thief is a broken OP class despite many classes being able to defeat 1v1 with tactics and knowledge of the thief… while being able to provide more support to a group in other builds than a thief… is pointless to talk to.

Aberrant.6749:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

*A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around

No… the synergy that varying classes can provide will drastically mitigate the burst and CC thieves. Any thief that gets focused would die very very quickly. Unless they are just a group of roaming cattle the thieves would get owned hard.

I have seen it happen. You get 2 or 3 of the thieves target the same person, that person WILL die. What i saw from a fight (afar) they had several small “groups” it was like 2-3 per a group that would all target someone and nuke them down not actually kill them just get them into down state before moving on to next then they had a couple going around just “tagging” the down state people to stop the heal and keep them down, it worked very well and you could tell they were on Vent or something

The ONLY defense to that is bunch up and spam AoE. They cant be killed thanks to perma-stealth and though they didnt kill all of them, none of the thieves died and several of the other people did die. I would say that was a win for the Thief group.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

*A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around

No… the synergy that varying classes can provide will drastically mitigate the burst and CC thieves. Any thief that gets focused would die very very quickly. Unless they are just a group of roaming cattle the thieves would get owned hard.

I have seen it happen. You get 2 or 3 of the thieves target the same person, that person WILL die. What i saw from a fight (afar) they had several small “groups” it was like 2-3 per a group that would all target someone and nuke them down not actually kill them just get them into down state before moving on to next then they had a couple going around just “tagging” the down state people to stop the heal and keep them down, it worked very well and you could tell they were on Vent or something

The ONLY defense to that is bunch up and spam AoE. They cant be killed thanks to perma-stealth and though they didnt kill all of them, none of the thieves died and several of the other people did die. I would say that was a win for the Thief group.

Oh no well coordinated people who are focus firing are beating uncoordinated people. OP

TheAmpca.1753:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

*A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around

No… the synergy that varying classes can provide will drastically mitigate the burst and CC thieves. Any thief that gets focused would die very very quickly. Unless they are just a group of roaming cattle the thieves would get owned hard.

I have seen it happen. You get 2 or 3 of the thieves target the same person, that person WILL die. What i saw from a fight (afar) they had several small “groups” it was like 2-3 per a group that would all target someone and nuke them down not actually kill them just get them into down state before moving on to next then they had a couple going around just “tagging” the down state people to stop the heal and keep them down, it worked very well and you could tell they were on Vent or something

The ONLY defense to that is bunch up and spam AoE. They cant be killed thanks to perma-stealth and though they didnt kill all of them, none of the thieves died and several of the other people did die. I would say that was a win for the Thief group.

Oh no well coordinated people who are focus firing are beating uncoordinated people. OP

Yes its Overpowered BECAUSE and as stated ALOT the fact that they have obscene damage, have far to much combat speed and the fact that Stealth is insanely broken, It wasnt thst the Thieves were better, it was the fact that they couldn’t be targeted thanks to the fact they were pretty much all in stealth for most of the fight.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheAmpca.1753:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

*A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around

No… the synergy that varying classes can provide will drastically mitigate the burst and CC thieves. Any thief that gets focused would die very very quickly. Unless they are just a group of roaming cattle the thieves would get owned hard.

I have seen it happen. You get 2 or 3 of the thieves target the same person, that person WILL die. What i saw from a fight (afar) they had several small “groups” it was like 2-3 per a group that would all target someone and nuke them down not actually kill them just get them into down state before moving on to next then they had a couple going around just “tagging” the down state people to stop the heal and keep them down, it worked very well and you could tell they were on Vent or something

The ONLY defense to that is bunch up and spam AoE. They cant be killed thanks to perma-stealth and though they didnt kill all of them, none of the thieves died and several of the other people did die. I would say that was a win for the Thief group.

Oh no well coordinated people who are focus firing are beating uncoordinated people. OP

Yes its Overpowered BECAUSE and as stated ALOT the fact that they have obscene damage, have far to much combat speed and the fact that Stealth is insanely broken, It wasnt thst the Thieves were better, it was the fact that they couldn’t be targeted thanks to the fact they were pretty much all in stealth for most of the fight.

If thieves were in stealth doing nothing for most of the fight I would like to know where their obscene damage came from. Backstab? Sure 2-3 people all landing backstab at the same time on one person will instantly down them just like 2-3 people of any other class working together for a well placed combo. You even said it yourself that the thieves were highly coordinated and probably on vent. Also since most of the skills in the game don’t require you to have a character selected I suggest guessing where the thief will be and firing there. Let me give you a hint. If they are using backstab then generally they will be you guessed, behind you. After thieves land their backstab combo you have 3 seconds before they can stealth again. This is plenty of time to cc/burst down a thief. If the thief was doing obscene amounts of damage like you said they were then it should be rather easy to kill them since they will be running you guessed it, high damage builds with low survivability.

TheAmpca.1753:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheAmpca.1753:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aberrant.6749:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

*A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around

No… the synergy that varying classes can provide will drastically mitigate the burst and CC thieves. Any thief that gets focused would die very very quickly. Unless they are just a group of roaming cattle the thieves would get owned hard.

I have seen it happen. You get 2 or 3 of the thieves target the same person, that person WILL die. What i saw from a fight (afar) they had several small “groups” it was like 2-3 per a group that would all target someone and nuke them down not actually kill them just get them into down state before moving on to next then they had a couple going around just “tagging” the down state people to stop the heal and keep them down, it worked very well and you could tell they were on Vent or something

The ONLY defense to that is bunch up and spam AoE. They cant be killed thanks to perma-stealth and though they didnt kill all of them, none of the thieves died and several of the other people did die. I would say that was a win for the Thief group.

Oh no well coordinated people who are focus firing are beating uncoordinated people. OP

Yes its Overpowered BECAUSE and as stated ALOT the fact that they have obscene damage, have far to much combat speed and the fact that Stealth is insanely broken, It wasnt thst the Thieves were better, it was the fact that they couldn’t be targeted thanks to the fact they were pretty much all in stealth for most of the fight.

If thieves were in stealth doing nothing for most of the fight I would like to know where their obscene damage came from. Backstab? Sure 2-3 people all landing backstab at the same time on one person will instantly down them just like 2-3 people of any other class working together for a well placed combo. You even said it yourself that the thieves were highly coordinated and probably on vent. Also since most of the skills in the game don’t require you to have a character selected I suggest guessing where the thief will be and firing there. Let me give you a hint. If they are using backstab then generally they will be you guessed, behind you. After thieves land their backstab combo you have 3 seconds before they can stealth again. This is plenty of time to cc/burst down a thief. If the thief was doing obscene amounts of damage like you said they were then it should be rather easy to kill them since they will be running you guessed it, high damage builds with low survivability.

Yes they were co-ordinated, that doesnt change the fact they had a HUGE benefit with how Broken the class is. When you can down someone in SECONDS and be right back into stealth within 2seconds that is broken. You can deny it as much as you want, doesnt change it.

The game shouldnt require EVERYONE going Bunker to stop themselves getting killed by Thieves just because Anet are to lazy to fix it, But this is Anet they are renowned for being awful at this sort of thing, thought they would have learned from GW1 – i guess not.

Sunflowers.1729:

Surbrus.6942:

Sunflowers.1729:

Unless you are squishy (or not running solo), you have a snowball’s chance in hell of bursting me down before I stealth again and run away if things go wrong.

So what? In an objective based game type (WvW), sending the enemy running with their tail between their legs is a win.

But I’m just saying that unless you are squishy (which the OP is saying not to do), then you will never beat me.

Doesn’t have anything to do with objective-based games or anything – that’s a different topic, and the Thief forum has already shown me that they respond to all arguments with ‘L2P noob’ and insults. So I will not bother with arguing this point.

I’m not squishy and i can beat a thief. It’s called “using conditions”. Stop trying to be 1337 and put some oil on the fire the stealth is generating. Thieves are going to end up badly nerfed if this goes on (whiners + socalled leet players).
Nice post OP.

Fenrir.6183:

Sunflowers.1729:

Surbrus.6942:

Sunflowers.1729:

Unless you are squishy (or not running solo), you have a snowball’s chance in hell of bursting me down before I stealth again and run away if things go wrong.

So what? In an objective based game type (WvW), sending the enemy running with their tail between their legs is a win.

But I’m just saying that unless you are squishy (which the OP is saying not to do), then you will never beat me.

Doesn’t have anything to do with objective-based games or anything – that’s a different topic, and the Thief forum has already shown me that they respond to all arguments with ‘L2P noob’ and insults. So I will not bother with arguing this point.

I’m not squishy and i can beat a thief. It’s called “using conditions”. Stop trying to be 1337 and put some oil on the fire the stealth is generating. Thieves are going to end up badly nerfed if this goes on (whiners + socalled leet players).
Nice post OP.

One BIG problem with that – What if you are not a Necromancer? sure the other classes or some of them at least have condition builds but none as strong as the Necromancer

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yes they were co-ordinated, that doesnt change the fact they had a HUGE benefit with how Broken the class is. When you can down someone in SECONDS and be right back into stealth within 2seconds that is broken. You can deny it as much as you want, doesnt change it.

The game shouldnt require EVERYONE going Bunker to stop themselves getting killed by Thieves just because Anet are to lazy to fix it, But this is Anet they are renowned for being awful at this sort of thing, thought they would have learned from GW1 – i guess not.

Gibberish. How is that broken when you take damage anyway. It’s not like being in stealth grants invicibility or something. Just throw down some AOE, traps, wells, whatever your class has as a mean to fight this. And in case you haven’t noticed yet, this game wasn’t made with headless roaming in mind but coordinated action.
Be it pvp or wvw, you’re not supposed to go alone (well it obviously happens more in pvp but this is a different case). Why are you fighting a thief, alone, when you could be with some friends, fighting over a tower, capturing camps, defending towers or keeps, etc. ?
You need to understand what the game is about, and stop roaming aimlessly like a headless chicken. Thieves are mostly roaming because a zerker d/d thief will be pretty useless in a zerg or in a tower/keep fight. They have few builds that are really useful in wvw, so they just want to kill some people. Hell thief was my first character and i only use him for roaming.

edit:
My main character is a ranger.

Fenrir.6183:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yes they were co-ordinated, that doesnt change the fact they had a HUGE benefit with how Broken the class is. When you can down someone in SECONDS and be right back into stealth within 2seconds that is broken. You can deny it as much as you want, doesnt change it.

The game shouldnt require EVERYONE going Bunker to stop themselves getting killed by Thieves just because Anet are to lazy to fix it, But this is Anet they are renowned for being awful at this sort of thing, thought they would have learned from GW1 – i guess not.

Gibberish. How is that broken when you take damage anyway. It’s not like being in stealth grants invicibility or something. Just throw down some AOE, traps, wells, whatever your class has as a mean to fight this. And in case you haven’t noticed yet, this game wasn’t made with headless roaming in mind but coordinated action.
Be it pvp or wvw, you’re not supposed to go alone (well it obviously happens more in pvp but this is a different case). Why are you fighting a thief, alone, when you could be with some friends, fighting over a tower, capturing camps, defending towers or keeps, etc. ?
You need to understand what the game is about, and stop roaming aimlessly like a headless chicken.

edit:
My main character is a ranger.

not everyone is as lucky as you to land it perfectly when they have pretty much EVERY direction to go in….

Dude…it should be obvious. Do it on yourself. That way the thief can’t approach, so either he does it and gets hit or he goes away. Win/win.

Sorry if i’m a bit rude but i’m tired of those endless “NERF THIEF” threads. So when i see trolls ruining a perfectly fine thread like this one, i get angry.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Fenrir.6183:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yes they were co-ordinated, that doesnt change the fact they had a HUGE benefit with how Broken the class is. When you can down someone in SECONDS and be right back into stealth within 2seconds that is broken. You can deny it as much as you want, doesnt change it.

The game shouldnt require EVERYONE going Bunker to stop themselves getting killed by Thieves just because Anet are to lazy to fix it, But this is Anet they are renowned for being awful at this sort of thing, thought they would have learned from GW1 – i guess not.

Gibberish. How is that broken when you take damage anyway. It’s not like being in stealth grants invicibility or something. Just throw down some AOE, traps, wells, whatever your class has as a mean to fight this. And in case you haven’t noticed yet, this game wasn’t made with headless roaming in mind but coordinated action.
Be it pvp or wvw, you’re not supposed to go alone (well it obviously happens more in pvp but this is a different case). Why are you fighting a thief, alone, when you could be with some friends, fighting over a tower, capturing camps, defending towers or keeps, etc. ?
You need to understand what the game is about, and stop roaming aimlessly like a headless chicken.

edit:
My main character is a ranger.

not everyone is as lucky as you to land it perfectly when they have pretty much EVERY direction to go in….

If they are not on top of you and are going in EVERY direction away from you (which is where you should be placing your Aoe) then they are not doing massive damage to you, they are running away.

TheAmpca.1753:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Fenrir.6183:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yes they were co-ordinated, that doesnt change the fact they had a HUGE benefit with how Broken the class is. When you can down someone in SECONDS and be right back into stealth within 2seconds that is broken. You can deny it as much as you want, doesnt change it.

The game shouldnt require EVERYONE going Bunker to stop themselves getting killed by Thieves just because Anet are to lazy to fix it, But this is Anet they are renowned for being awful at this sort of thing, thought they would have learned from GW1 – i guess not.

Gibberish. How is that broken when you take damage anyway. It’s not like being in stealth grants invicibility or something. Just throw down some AOE, traps, wells, whatever your class has as a mean to fight this. And in case you haven’t noticed yet, this game wasn’t made with headless roaming in mind but coordinated action.
Be it pvp or wvw, you’re not supposed to go alone (well it obviously happens more in pvp but this is a different case). Why are you fighting a thief, alone, when you could be with some friends, fighting over a tower, capturing camps, defending towers or keeps, etc. ?
You need to understand what the game is about, and stop roaming aimlessly like a headless chicken.

edit:
My main character is a ranger.

not everyone is as lucky as you to land it perfectly when they have pretty much EVERY direction to go in….

If they are not on top of you and are going in EVERY direction away from you (which is where you should be placing your Aoe) then they are not doing massive damage to you, they are running away.

Again, other the the Necro which class has has all this AoE that he/she can place around themselves? they could easily be just out of range waiting for the AoE to end to come and attack.

If You Are Squishy Running Solo Don’t come complaining to the forums when a thief destroys you.

Squishies die to thieves because thieves do too much damage. Bunkers die to thieves since they cant burst them before the thief runs away.

Thieves are badly balanced in wvw. This is not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp, aside from thieves.

Iluth.6875:

If You Are Squishy Running Solo Don’t come complaining to the forums when a thief destroys you.

Squishies die to thieves because thieves do too much damage. Bunkers die to thieves since they cant burst them before the thief runs away.

Thieves are badly balanced in wvw. This is not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp, aside from thieves.

People really shouldn’t be running squishy builds in WvW and running solo (including thieves) sine they die easily. Your second sentence is self-contradicting, a thief that runs away is not a thief that is doing any damage since they are running away.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheAmpca.1753:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Fenrir.6183:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yes they were co-ordinated, that doesnt change the fact they had a HUGE benefit with how Broken the class is. When you can down someone in SECONDS and be right back into stealth within 2seconds that is broken. You can deny it as much as you want, doesnt change it.

The game shouldnt require EVERYONE going Bunker to stop themselves getting killed by Thieves just because Anet are to lazy to fix it, But this is Anet they are renowned for being awful at this sort of thing, thought they would have learned from GW1 – i guess not.

Gibberish. How is that broken when you take damage anyway. It’s not like being in stealth grants invicibility or something. Just throw down some AOE, traps, wells, whatever your class has as a mean to fight this. And in case you haven’t noticed yet, this game wasn’t made with headless roaming in mind but coordinated action.
Be it pvp or wvw, you’re not supposed to go alone (well it obviously happens more in pvp but this is a different case). Why are you fighting a thief, alone, when you could be with some friends, fighting over a tower, capturing camps, defending towers or keeps, etc. ?
You need to understand what the game is about, and stop roaming aimlessly like a headless chicken.

edit:
My main character is a ranger.

not everyone is as lucky as you to land it perfectly when they have pretty much EVERY direction to go in….

If they are not on top of you and are going in EVERY direction away from you (which is where you should be placing your Aoe) then they are not doing massive damage to you, they are running away.

Again, other the the Necro which class has has all this AoE that he/she can place around themselves? they could easily be just out of range waiting for the AoE to end to come and attack.

Every class does. Take your AA chain for example, none of them require a target to be selected. Most skills in this game do not require you to select a target and can be blind fired. I wont list all the skills because it would take too long. Rather if you would like help with a specific class I could help you.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Fenrir.6183:

Sunflowers.1729:

Surbrus.6942:

Sunflowers.1729:

Unless you are squishy (or not running solo), you have a snowball’s chance in hell of bursting me down before I stealth again and run away if things go wrong.

So what? In an objective based game type (WvW), sending the enemy running with their tail between their legs is a win.

But I’m just saying that unless you are squishy (which the OP is saying not to do), then you will never beat me.

Doesn’t have anything to do with objective-based games or anything – that’s a different topic, and the Thief forum has already shown me that they respond to all arguments with ‘L2P noob’ and insults. So I will not bother with arguing this point.

I’m not squishy and i can beat a thief. It’s called “using conditions”. Stop trying to be 1337 and put some oil on the fire the stealth is generating. Thieves are going to end up badly nerfed if this goes on (whiners + socalled leet players).
Nice post OP.

One BIG problem with that – What if you are not a Necromancer? sure the other classes or some of them at least have condition builds but none as strong as the Necromancer

Try HgH Cond Eng… Seriously… try it. It’s kitten amazing.

Iluth.6875:

Squishies die to thieves because thieves do too much damage. Bunkers die to thieves since they cant burst them before the thief runs away.

Thieves are badly balanced in wvw. This is not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp, aside from thieves.

Please show me a decent bunker guard/mes that’s regularly dying from a roaming thief.

Seriously… thieves go into other forums at times and ask how do I beat your class. Most of the time the response is hope they built for a zerg, are noob, or you’re not going to win. Once you hit a certain skill threshold… thieves become pretty bad in comparison to the other classes.

Iluth.6875:

Thieves are badly balanced in wvw. This is not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp, aside from thieves.

My main is not a thief yet i don’t understand what you mean. My main is a ranger, i also play a warrior…and very rarely a thief. Thieves are at a big disadvantage in wvw when specc’d for 1v1 (obviously). So the ones that you keep complaining about are not badly balanced for wvw, they just specialized in killing idiots that can’t stay with other guys. On a gigantic map. With guards everywhere, towers, keeps.
Just think about it. Why were you there in the first place ? You died ? You should have rezzed and formed a group to get back to the zerg / tower/ keep / whatever objective you were fighting for. You’re alone ? Don’t complain if any player specc’d for 1v1 kills you then.

People really shouldn’t be running squishy builds in WvW and running solo (including thieves) sine they die easily. Your second sentence is self-contradicting, a thief that runs away is not a thief that is doing any damage since they are running away.

Like it said, it doesn’t really matter what choice you make, thief has the advantage over you due to inherent design flaws and bad balancing. You’re a thief so you cannot see this.

Saying it won’t make it magically become true. Either provide some proof/arguments to back up this and you won’t make a complete fool of yourself.
Thieves have NO advantage over other classes. They clearly lack good AoEs, and are weak against conditions. Stealth is pretty fun but it doesn’t provide any kind of protection…stun the thief and he’s pretty much as good as dead if no stunbreaker is up (zerker assumed here).

edit: this is what i’d call a typicall d/d roaming killer build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlUmaO3eS6E/JFy2jKUnIKOFOFSpVgm6KgVA-jUCBYLCiUgg0HQEBAJPFRjtNoIasqFYqSER1eDFRrGA-w
Learn about its strength and its weakness and improve yourself. When you have done so, and know what you’re talking about, come back.
Honestly, the best way to beat a thief is actually having played one (but that can be said for every class).

Fenrir.6183:

Iluth.6875:

Thieves are badly balanced in wvw. This is not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp, aside from thieves.

My main is not a thief yet i don’t understand what you mean. My main is a ranger, i also play a warrior…and very rarely a thief. Thieves are at a big disadvantage in wvw when specc’d for 1v1 (obviously). So the ones that you keep complaining about are not badly balanced for wvw, they just specialized in killing idiots that can’t stay with other guys. On a gigantic map. With guards everywhere, towers, keeps.
Just think about it. Why were you there in the first place ? You died ? You should have rezzed and formed a group to get back to the zerg / tower/ keep / whatever objective you were fighting for. You’re alone ? Don’t complain if any player specc’d for 1v1 kills you then.

The thing you’re failing to see is that a thief can be specced for 1v1 with far fewer disadvantages than other classes.

Most classes who choose to go GC have survivability problems, thieves have a class mechanic which allows them ignore damage mitigation or health as a valuable stat. All other classes need to take survivability into account, and make a delicate balancing act when it comes to figuring out how much damage to bring to the table and how much damage mitigation.

It’s not roamers I have a problem with. I have a fair chance against all roamers despite being bunker specced. Thieves are just broken, and yes I used to main one before I gave up in disgust. I know they are broken from both sides of the table.

Aberrant.6749:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Fenrir.6183:

Sunflowers.1729:

Surbrus.6942:

Sunflowers.1729:

Unless you are squishy (or not running solo), you have a snowball’s chance in hell of bursting me down before I stealth again and run away if things go wrong.

So what? In an objective based game type (WvW), sending the enemy running with their tail between their legs is a win.

But I’m just saying that unless you are squishy (which the OP is saying not to do), then you will never beat me.

Doesn’t have anything to do with objective-based games or anything – that’s a different topic, and the Thief forum has already shown me that they respond to all arguments with ‘L2P noob’ and insults. So I will not bother with arguing this point.

I’m not squishy and i can beat a thief. It’s called “using conditions”. Stop trying to be 1337 and put some oil on the fire the stealth is generating. Thieves are going to end up badly nerfed if this goes on (whiners + socalled leet players).
Nice post OP.

One BIG problem with that – What if you are not a Necromancer? sure the other classes or some of them at least have condition builds but none as strong as the Necromancer

Try HgH Cond Eng… Seriously… try it. It’s kitten amazing.

Iluth.6875:

Squishies die to thieves because thieves do too much damage. Bunkers die to thieves since they cant burst them before the thief runs away.

Thieves are badly balanced in wvw. This is not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp, aside from thieves.

Please show me a decent bunker guard/mes that’s regularly dying from a roaming thief.

Seriously… thieves go into other forums at times and ask how do I beat your class. Most of the time the response is hope they built for a zerg, are noob, or you’re not going to win. Once you hit a certain skill threshold… thieves become pretty bad in comparison to the other classes.

It sounds like you’re talking about bad thieves who are wondering why their heartseeker spam isn’t killing a good bunker guard.

Thieves have the problem of being powerful in the hands of a bad player, and immortal in the hands of a good one.

Iluth.6875:

thieves have a class mechanic which allows them ignore damage mitigation or health as a valuable stat.

I never knew thieves had invincibility.

Iluth.6875:

Most classes who choose to go GC have survivability problems, thieves have a class mechanic which allows them ignore damage mitigation or health as a valuable stat. All other classes need to take survivability into account, and make a delicate balancing act when it comes to figuring out how much damage to bring to the table and how much damage mitigation.

You’re delusional. Being in stealth does not mean you’re not going to take damage. Just stun or keep hitting. The thief going stealthy doesn’t mean he has disappeared, he’s still pretty much in the same position, even with the +50% run speed, than when he was there earlier.
Keep hitting and keep using your skills.
What don’t you understand in this ? A zerker thief has 12/13k hp, it dies almost instantly if you focus on him.

Fenrir.6183:

Saying it won’t make it magically become true. Either provide some proof/arguments to back up this and you won’t make a complete fool of yourself.
Thieves have NO advantage over other classes. They clearly lack good AoEs, and are weak against conditions. Stealth is pretty fun but it doesn’t provide any kind of protection…stun the thief and he’s pretty much as good as dead if no stunbreaker is up (zerker assumed here).

edit: this is what i’d call a typicall d/d roaming killer build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlUmaO3eS6E/JFy2jKUnIKOFOFSpVgm6KgVA-jUCBYLCiUgg0HQEBAJPFRjtNoIasqFYqSER1eDFRrGA-w
Learn about its strength and its weakness and improve yourself. When you have done so, and know what you’re talking about, come back.
Honestly, the best way to beat a thief is actually having played one (but that can be said for every class).

I already made my argument. GC’s die to thieves because they have no mitigation, and bunkers either die to or fail to kill thieves due to not having burst damage.

I’m not a roamer by choice, I can’t go retrait my character every time I need to take a camp for my underpopulated server. And in my experience encountering soloers, nobody has been as disgustingly difficult to kill as thieves. It’s just mathmatical fact that they’re a faceroll solo class.

Sure it’s what theyre built for, in my opinion all classes should be able to roam equally well or bunker equally well. This is what Anet stated at the outset in their mission statement actually.

Fenrir.6183:

Iluth.6875:

Most classes who choose to go GC have survivability problems, thieves have a class mechanic which allows them ignore damage mitigation or health as a valuable stat. All other classes need to take survivability into account, and make a delicate balancing act when it comes to figuring out how much damage to bring to the table and how much damage mitigation.

You’re delusional. Being in stealth does not mean you’re not going to take damage. Just stun or keep hitting. The thief going stealthy doesn’t mean he has disappeared, he’s still pretty much in the same position, even with the +50% run speed, than when he was there earlier.
Keep hitting and keep using your skills.
What don’t you understand in this ? A zerker thief has 12/13k hp, it dies almost instantly if you focus on him.

Okay I see you can’t understand my argument.

I have a question for you then: Why is it that people only need to “learn to play” vs solo thieves, and no other classes?

I don’t consider myself very good, I have a bunker engi, and I kill 100% of the roaming rangers I encounter. 100% This is not due to me being good, or rangers being bad. It’s a thing called “class imbalance”

TheAmpca.1753:

Iluth.6875:

thieves have a class mechanic which allows them ignore damage mitigation or health as a valuable stat.

I never knew thieves had invincibility.

I never said stealth gave mitigation. Try reading it again. And then read it again some more.

Fenrir.6183:

This is no argument, it’s baseless crap. You just say things, bring some proofs, bring some facts.
My facts: thieves that are specced for roaming kills and high stealth have only a few ways to break stun. If you look at the build i linked, there’s no stability. You could swap the poison for dagger storm but then you have 1 stability that’s usable only once every 90 secs.
Learn
to
play
the
kitten
game.

Also, why are you taking a camp all by yourself ? And why are you complaining if a thief kills you while you’re doing so ?
If you weren’t at the camp yet, why bother fighting the thief ?
All classes shouldn’t be the same, and i’m happy they’re not. Else we’d all be playing the same class. A class needs strengths and weaknesses, and you NEED TO LEARN THEM before complaining about it.

edit in reply to your previous post:
You’re not killing 100% of the rangers. If you think you do, once again i’ll say you’re delusional. You might be killing upscaled, or noobs, i dunno. Who said they were good players ? If they’re roaming, they’re not good players anyway. Learn to play.

Yes I kill 100% of rangers and 0% of thieves. I don’t count upscaled players as kills either.

Additionally, I haven’t looked at the build you linked but I’m assuming it doesn’t have shadowstep.

I do actually kill 100% of rangers nowdays without even breaking a sweat. High ranked ones too. Nobody I’ve ever heard of has complained about rangers being OP in WvW actually, either on my server or on the forums. They’re just pretty much free kills.

Thieves on the other hand are difficult and many people complain about them. I just still dont understand why the only time someone says “l2p” its because they cant kill a thief. All other classes are fairly easy to kill, just not thieves.

I’m not sure if you’re just having fun with me or what, it’s a fairly well recognized fact among all players that thieves are currently op and need a nice nerf.

Fenrir.6183:

[…]
edit: this is what i’d call a typicall d/d roaming killer build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlUmaO3eS6E/JFy2jKUnIKOFOFSpVgm6KgVA-jUCBYLCiUgg0HQEBAJPFRjtNoIasqFYqSER1eDFRrGA-w
[…]

Did you really just link a WvW d/d build with 20 shadow arts and the “Hidden Thief” trait?
Not even talking about the godawful equipment choice.

Why are you even talking ?

Omnitek.3876:

Stealth is not op.

Stealth with 25% movement speed, 900 range ports, blinds, shadow step, and the damage output is OP.

I was teasing a guild thief who is a big roamer about spamming HS. He said “every class has a skill they spam”. I explained that no class has a skill that hits for 3k+ that they can cast 4 times in 4 seconds. Laughed my kitten off. It is a class with the lowest skill cap when it comes to roaming for a reason, the mobility, stealth and damage.

Want a fix? When stealthed, reduce movement speed by 25%. Or give 2 classes the ability to see/break enemy stealth. A trait, or utility or w/e. Doesn’t matter.
Boom. Done. If stealth isn’t a crutch that you lean on, you will have no problem with the change right?

You really don’t get it. I’ll illustrate using a warrior with GS/AA vs pretty much any thief set. The warrior can go 2345 swap 2345 swap 2345 swap into infinity pretty much and all those skills will deal decent damage. I realize it’s not quiet so seamless but the fact of the matter is once you’re out of skills on one set, there will be enough skills to tide you over on the other set. (And don’t you dare mention a non-kit engie, I run an HGH Coated Bullets engie and can spam 123 all the live long day)
Now enter a thief set. They all have an auto attack, a stealth attack, one strong damage attack and weak 3 utility attacks. On top of that their initiative is shared between both of their sloted sets, so they can’t just swap when they run out like other classes, they’ve gotta choose the skill that will give them the most for their cost, the utilities do little damage and are really expensive, so if they’re bursting, thief isn’t exactly loaded with viable options.
Oh and about your "no class can 3k+ 4 times in a row, so what? Some classes can do 3k+ on most of thier weapon skills and use swap rotations to spam them infinitely, and many of them are multi target.

On to stealth sets. There’s 4 stealth sets, D/x’s are both burst and the most commonly seen, S/D is control and P/D is condition. Now here comes the tricky part about these sets, D/x works well with long stealths but S/D and P/D need to use their stealth attacks as frequently as possible, they’ll idealy stay in stealth no longer then a second. The bursters are the ones with Heartseeker and backstab, and though they benefit from long stealths, they don’t need them. Keep that in mind when suggesting stealth nerfs. Stealth isn’t a crutch for the non-burst builds, it’s their right leg.

(Also, it’s 50% speed and I don’t know where you got ports from. Blind is only one miss and necessary for sustained CQC which the non-bursters need. 25% speed debuff ruins stealths purpose, which is a positioning tool)

Also, Why is this a thief thread now?

Iluth.6875:

It’s just mathmatical fact that they’re a faceroll solo class.

Where is this math you speak of.