Guild Wars 2

Dual.8953:

Why is this a thief thread now?

Every thread about being solo in WvW eventually becomes a thief QQ thread : /

Aberrant.6749:

Dual.8953:

Why is this a thief thread now?

Every thread about being solo in WvW eventually becomes a thief QQ thread : /

Idiots see thieves and automatically forget that they have buttons they can press too.

Aberrant.6749:

Raestloz.7134:

I like it that you focus only “how to fight a thief” and not “how ridiculous the concept of stealth is”. Guess what? My highlight is the latter.

Ok… so you don’t like stealth regardless that you can beat some one using it… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away… and now are asking for a change to make the game like how YOU want it to be? Wat?

Sorry that I assumed you were asking for ways to fight some one using stealth. I won’t waste any more of my time with this then ^^

Give it up on the absolutely ridiculous argument that any class can stealth nonsense. If you can’t see the difference between having to use a racial ELITE ability once every 3 minutes vs a thief who can stealth any time and as often as the want, then no, you are right no one is listening to you. You also continue to ignore the meat of the thread which is the truly bad stealth mechanics in this game and how it effects “one on one” fights. Unlimited any time stealth is a truly stupid mechanic

Erzian.5218:

Fenrir.6183:

[…]
edit: this is what i’d call a typicall d/d roaming killer build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlUmaO3eS6E/JFy2jKUnIKOFOFSpVgm6KgVA-jUCBYLCiUgg0HQEBAJPFRjtNoIasqFYqSER1eDFRrGA-w
[…]

Did you really just link a WvW d/d build with 20 shadow arts and the “Hidden Thief” trait?
Not even talking about the godawful equipment choice.

Hmm ? Can’t read ? Need me to put stuff in bold ?
typical d/d roaming killer build
roaming killer

I didn’t say it was a zerg or anything else build. The guy was complaining about stealthy thieves, this is one of the builds that allows a lot of stealth. It’s a shame that most people complaining can’t even read and/or give any argument against stealth other than “OMG HE DISAPPEARED!!11!1”

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

so because to YOU (which is wrong by the way) that you think they only excel in one area it means that it is perfectly fine for them to be so obscenely overpowered?

A group of 5-10 thieves will do more damage/kill more people of varying other classes then the other way around. Why? the obscene spike damage combined with the broken stealth means they could easily target the same people, kill that person in SECONDS and repeat the process, might be harder against Bunkers but when they have the obscene damage, broken stealth and the 25% speed increase they will win in more situations then they lose.

If they are so weak elsewhere (which they aren’t) buff these areas and nerf Stealth, Damage and movement speed.

I have never seen a thief group do worth a crap in 5v5 or GvG. Spike damage is great until a guard/ele combo drops 25 stacks of might on everyone in the group, a fire field pops up with a blast finisher going through it and a ton of AoE stuns hit the ground. Field combos are devastating and make thief spike damage laughable.

Thieves are a component of good skirmishing and a top ranked class in WvW roaming. That is their role much like the necro/guardian is powerful in zergs. Thieves are not invulnerable gods capable of killing every class solo. High toughness in particular is virtual immunity against a thief. No decent guardian walking around with 3000+ armor is worried about some unkillable solo god.

deracs.1762:

Aberrant.6749:

Raestloz.7134:

I like it that you focus only “how to fight a thief” and not “how ridiculous the concept of stealth is”. Guess what? My highlight is the latter.

Ok… so you don’t like stealth regardless that you can beat some one using it… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away… and now are asking for a change to make the game like how YOU want it to be? Wat?

Sorry that I assumed you were asking for ways to fight some one using stealth. I won’t waste any more of my time with this then ^^

Give it up on the absolutely ridiculous argument that any class can stealth nonsense. If you can’t see the difference between having to use a racial ELITE ability once every 3 minutes vs a thief who can stealth any time and as often as the want, then no, you are right no one is listening to you. You also continue to ignore the meat of the thread which is the truly bad stealth mechanics in this game and how it effects “one on one” fights. Unlimited any time stealth is a truly stupid mechanic

It’s not ridiculous, it’s a valid point. Sorry if you don’t like it… but it’s a part of the game.

People are complaining that a thief can escape a fight. With that eliete you can escape a fight by stealthing and leaping. Thieves give up other things to be able to disengage easily.

Other classes don’t give up the same things… and can still disengage easily at the cost of an eliete. With it every 3 mins you can stealth and leap every 10s for 30s. I think that’s fair. I don’t see what the cooldown really has to do with it… unless it’s that a thief can do it more often? How often are you really needing to escape? Heck I usually don’t even need stealth to escape on my other classes…

If they are perma stealthing they aren’t hurting you… so what the kitten is it really doing? It’s not any time stealth btw… there is this revealed debuff which prevents that.

TheAmpca.1753:

Don’t come complaining to the forums when a thief destroys you.
Stealth is not OP.
Stealth/ (decent)regeneration is the only survivability thiefs have.

Why would you need regen singe your oppenent(s) are already dead in seconds?

I doubt there are many who complain “OH MAN, I fought a Thief for 4 minutes but at the end he killed me! QQ”.

rogerwilko.6895:

TheAmpca.1753:

Don’t come complaining to the forums when a thief destroys you.
Stealth is not OP.
Stealth/ (decent)regeneration is the only survivability thiefs have.

Why would you need regen singe your oppenent(s) are already dead in seconds?

I doubt there are many who complain “OH MAN, I fought a Thief for 4 minutes but at the end he killed me! QQ”.

There are two burst sets and five non-burst sets, so already that makes it not an “always” scenario. CC and Condi need sustain. Also, any WvW player worth his or her salt, knows how to survive a thief burst. It’s the the those that are new or are too stubborn to learn that have trouble. And it’s usually them that are loud about it. (But thankfully some of them learn eventually)

Stealth itself is not op, the easy and more or less unlimited access to it and the very limited interaction (cnd@neutrals, d/p*) with the thief in WvW are the issue.
You can still damage the thief while invisible but in the end it still comes down to: prediction/gambling vs. seeing every single action. If you are in the latter position and lose you simply got outplayed big times.
Nevertheless: Thieves need stealth, but not in such an excessive manner, it should require you to think about when you are going to use stealth instead of having it always ready apart from 3 seconds of revealed which are only applied if you hit someone. It is not like you completely useless outside of stealth: Most dodges in the game and highest mobility in the game (together with warriors). So you can still run as good as or even better than any other class without stealth.

• Many classes and builds do not even have a single fairly reliable way of preventing 1 black powder+ heartseeker combo not even talking about multiple of them (if he wants to reset the fight, the first one is the most important anyways) and other sources of stealth you have to counter at the same time.

Phantom.8130:

if player skill is evenly matched, the person who has any allies on their side, whether they’re player or AI controlled, should win the fight. even if it’s a upleveled ranger and an NPC guard against you, you’re at the same disadvantage.

No, just no
Assuming you are lvl 80 with exotic gear: Unless the upleveled player is close to 80 and has similar good equipment, you are not supposed to lose that fight. If you do, you are basically on the same skill level as the veteran guard.

@Fenrir.6183:

Fenrir.6183:

Erzian.5218:

Fenrir.6183:

[…]
edit: this is what i’d call a typicall d/d roaming killer build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlUmaO3eS6E/JFy2jKUnIKOFOFSpVgm6KgVA-jUCBYLCiUgg0HQEBAJPFRjtNoIasqFYqSER1eDFRrGA-w
[…]

Did you really just link a WvW d/d build with 20 shadow arts and the “Hidden Thief” trait?
Not even talking about the godawful equipment choice.

Hmm ? Can’t read ? Need me to put stuff in bold ?
typical d/d roaming killer build
roaming killer

I didn’t say it was a zerg or anything else build. The guy was complaining about stealthy thieves, this is one of the builds that allows a lot of stealth. It’s a shame that most people complaining can’t even read and/or give any argument against stealth other than “OMG HE DISAPPEARED!!11!1”

Either you are a huge troll or absolutely clueless. This build and its equipment choice are terrible for roaming and even worse in general.
I’m pretty sure if the majority of wvw thieves did actually run this build, there would be much less complaints:
- No sufficient initiative management and therefore less access to stealth
- less burst damage than decent d/d specs
- waste of a trait (hidden thief)
-why the hell would you run full berserker and a +5% crit chance sigil when you have the hidden killer trait?
I honestly don’t understand why you tell people to l2p, when you obviously don’t even know how the standard back-stab combo works because if you did, you wouldn’t run hidden thief, which in fact reduces the combo’s damage while there are at least 3 other traits that are better in the same slot.

Aberrant.6749:

deracs.1762:

Aberrant.6749:

Raestloz.7134:

I like it that you focus only “how to fight a thief” and not “how ridiculous the concept of stealth is”. Guess what? My highlight is the latter.

Ok… so you don’t like stealth regardless that you can beat some one using it… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away… and now are asking for a change to make the game like how YOU want it to be? Wat?

Sorry that I assumed you were asking for ways to fight some one using stealth. I won’t waste any more of my time with this then ^^

Give it up on the absolutely ridiculous argument that any class can stealth nonsense. If you can’t see the difference between having to use a racial ELITE ability once every 3 minutes vs a thief who can stealth any time and as often as the want, then no, you are right no one is listening to you. You also continue to ignore the meat of the thread which is the truly bad stealth mechanics in this game and how it effects “one on one” fights. Unlimited any time stealth is a truly stupid mechanic

It’s not ridiculous, it’s a valid point. Sorry if you don’t like it… but it’s a part of the game.

People are complaining that a thief can escape a fight. With that eliete you can escape a fight by stealthing and leaping. Thieves give up other things to be able to disengage easily.

Other classes don’t give up the same things… and can still disengage easily at the cost of an eliete. With it every 3 mins you can stealth and leap every 10s for 30s. I think that’s fair. I don’t see what the cooldown really has to do with it… unless it’s that a thief can do it more often? How often are you really needing to escape? Heck I usually don’t even need stealth to escape on my other classes…

If they are perma stealthing they aren’t hurting you… so what the kitten is it really doing? It’s not any time stealth btw… there is this revealed debuff which prevents that.

Of course it is a silly argument. If you take one aspect of an overall discussion and twist it to make a point. Everyone can have access to stealth therefore stealth is equal for all is foolish.
If we want to use that logic lets take one of your earlier statements

“The thief can disengage when they want to… but that’s part of the class design. In fact… they NEED to disengage and re-engage frequently. They lack staying power”

Well any thief has access to the same toughness gear that all classes do, can be totally bunker for survivability, therefore they don’t need stealth or “need” to disengage therefore we are all equal

Of course what I said is a stupid argument. Go back to the beginning of the thread, read why I disagree with stealth overall (in all games). I realize you wont agree with me which is fine but at least my argument looked at more then 1 situation to argue over

deracs.1762:

Aberrant.6749:

deracs.1762:

Aberrant.6749:

Raestloz.7134:

I like it that you focus only “how to fight a thief” and not “how ridiculous the concept of stealth is”. Guess what? My highlight is the latter.

Ok… so you don’t like stealth regardless that you can beat some one using it… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away… and now are asking for a change to make the game like how YOU want it to be? Wat?

Sorry that I assumed you were asking for ways to fight some one using stealth. I won’t waste any more of my time with this then ^^

Give it up on the absolutely ridiculous argument that any class can stealth nonsense. If you can’t see the difference between having to use a racial ELITE ability once every 3 minutes vs a thief who can stealth any time and as often as the want, then no, you are right no one is listening to you. You also continue to ignore the meat of the thread which is the truly bad stealth mechanics in this game and how it effects “one on one” fights. Unlimited any time stealth is a truly stupid mechanic

It’s not ridiculous, it’s a valid point. Sorry if you don’t like it… but it’s a part of the game.

People are complaining that a thief can escape a fight. With that eliete you can escape a fight by stealthing and leaping. Thieves give up other things to be able to disengage easily.

Other classes don’t give up the same things… and can still disengage easily at the cost of an eliete. With it every 3 mins you can stealth and leap every 10s for 30s. I think that’s fair. I don’t see what the cooldown really has to do with it… unless it’s that a thief can do it more often? How often are you really needing to escape? Heck I usually don’t even need stealth to escape on my other classes…

If they are perma stealthing they aren’t hurting you… so what the kitten is it really doing? It’s not any time stealth btw… there is this revealed debuff which prevents that.

Of course it is a silly argument. If you take one aspect of an overall discussion and twist it to make a point. Everyone can have access to stealth therefore stealth is equal for all is foolish.
If we want to use that logic lets take one of your earlier statements

“The thief can disengage when they want to… but that’s part of the class design. In fact… they NEED to disengage and re-engage frequently. They lack staying power”

Well any thief has access to the same toughness gear that all classes do, can be totally bunker for survivability, therefore they don’t need stealth or “need” to disengage therefore we are all equal

Of course what I said is a stupid argument. Go back to the beginning of the thread, read why I disagree with stealth overall (in all games). I realize you wont agree with me which is fine but at least my argument looked at more then 1 situation to argue over

It takes more than some PVT gear to make a char a bunker. There is a reason that guardians and Ele’s make amazing bunkers and thieves may as well not show up if they are bunker.

Renxian.6982:

It takes more than some PVT gear to make a char a bunker. There is a reason that guardians and Ele’s make amazing bunkers and thieves may as well not show up if they are bunker.

Hm. I have to remember to say that to a rather well respected nearly unkillable thief commander that’s on my server.

Either way its pointless to argue with thieves. Their arguments are too transparent.

I just completely destroyed a lvl 80 Thief on my lvl 14(!!!!!!!) Guardian. I mean, come on. If I can do it on a lvl 14 then anyone can do it… The key? Know how stealth works. I stopped his attempts to stealth or chain stealth by simply playing smart. He tried to drop shadow refuge, and I just bursted the crap out of SR, result? Downed thief ready to die.

Seriously, just learn the Thief and how stealth works and you’ll be laughing each time a thief stealths

Geiir.7603:

I just completely destroyed a lvl 80 Thief on my lvl 14(!!!!!!!) Guardian. I mean, come on. If I can do it on a lvl 14 then anyone can do it… The key? Know how stealth works. I stopped his attempts to stealth or chain stealth by simply playing smart. He tried to drop shadow refuge, and I just bursted the crap out of SR, result? Downed thief ready to die.

Seriously, just learn the Thief and how stealth works and you’ll be laughing each time a thief stealths

Once I killed 5 players on my ele so everyone should be able to kill 5 players at one time roaming then…? Your logic is very flawed.

Mogar.9216:

Geiir.7603:

I just completely destroyed a lvl 80 Thief on my lvl 14(!!!!!!!) Guardian. I mean, come on. If I can do it on a lvl 14 then anyone can do it… The key? Know how stealth works. I stopped his attempts to stealth or chain stealth by simply playing smart. He tried to drop shadow refuge, and I just bursted the crap out of SR, result? Downed thief ready to die.

Seriously, just learn the Thief and how stealth works and you’ll be laughing each time a thief stealths

Once I killed 5 players on my ele so everyone should be able to kill 5 players at one time roaming then…? Your logic is very flawed.

No less flawed than “I got killed by a thief that used stealth so thieves and stealth are OP”

Hardcore players killing casual players… the story of WvW and the backbone of every “X-class needs a nerf” thread.

Mogar.9216:

Geiir.7603:

I just completely destroyed a lvl 80 Thief on my lvl 14(!!!!!!!) Guardian. I mean, come on. If I can do it on a lvl 14 then anyone can do it… The key? Know how stealth works. I stopped his attempts to stealth or chain stealth by simply playing smart. He tried to drop shadow refuge, and I just bursted the crap out of SR, result? Downed thief ready to die.

Seriously, just learn the Thief and how stealth works and you’ll be laughing each time a thief stealths

Once I killed 5 players on my ele so everyone should be able to kill 5 players at one time roaming then…? Your logic is very flawed.

You miss my point here. Any player that learns how stealth works find it easy to counter and that makes thief a joy to meet in the field. There are ofcourse good thieves running around, and they are just simply better players and therefore they deserve to win.

This exact thing happened several times, with the same result. One of the thieves was caught so much off guard by having a low level slay him that he just gave up and stood there. Stealth is seriously a L2P issue…

Any class in any build can take on a five man group if they are the better player. Sometimes I do that with my thief, and sometimes I run away because they were just too coordinated – or they play too well and just slay me as soon as I show up. This game is 90% skill level and 10% profession/build.

Geiir.7603:

Seriously, just learn the Thief and how stealth works and you’ll be laughing each time a thief stealths

Blinding powder, 2, 2, 2, blinding powder, 2, 2, 2, blinding powder, 2, 2, 2, blinding powder, 2, 2, 2. Alternativly when in a larger pack its blinding powder, sb 2, sb 2, blinding powder, sb 2, sb 2, blinding powder, sb 2, sb 2.

My God you are right! I never realized until now but I do laugh everytime my thief perma-stealths!!!

If that’s all you are doing as a thief you are bad.

Dawdler.8521:

Geiir.7603:

Seriously, just learn the Thief and how stealth works and you’ll be laughing each time a thief stealths

Blinding powder, 2, 2, 2, blinding powder, 2, 2, 2, blinding powder, 2, 2, 2, blinding powder, 2, 2, 2. Alternativly when in a larger pack its blinding powder, sb 2, sb 2, blinding powder, sb 2, sb 2, blinding powder, sb 2, sb 2.

My God you are right! I never realized until now but I do laugh everytime my thief perma-stealths!!!

And if you take a look in the thief community we have ideas of how to fix that – make it so that stealth doesn’t stack.

But how hard is it to counter that? Knock them back in mid air or throw them out of their blind field. That’s 9 initiative wasted (out of 12, 15 max) which often means dead thief. No possibility to escape, stealth, deal damage or anything. Seriously. How hard can it be? When I’m on my thief and face good players, then they have learnt to interrupt my HS and then I’m left vulnerable. It’s very (!) predictable, because if a D/P thief is dropping his BP then he is for SURE going to do a HS. Just stop him from doing that. One other way if he manages to stealth is to move into his blind field, when he lands his second HS or cluster bomb he’s getting revealed, and again, vulnerable.

Renxian.6982:

It takes more than some PVT gear to make a char a bunker. There is a reason that guardians and Ele’s make amazing bunkers and thieves may as well not show up if they are bunker.

I disagree with this. Healing thief builds are dangerous because they can survive over an extended fight and are not as susceptible to AoE or being burst down. Stealth is a form of bunker just like retaliation and blocks. Thieves may not be face tanking like other classes, but they can still mitigate a considerable amount of damage.

I run a mix of Knights and Cavaliers as well as go 30 in SA with Shadow’s Rejuvenation (unbuffed 2700 toughness, 100 CD, 2k power). While my initial sting isn’t high, my sustained DPS is good and survivability is very good.

Straegen.2938:

Renxian.6982:

It takes more than some PVT gear to make a char a bunker. There is a reason that guardians and Ele’s make amazing bunkers and thieves may as well not show up if they are bunker.

I disagree with this. Healing thief builds are dangerous because they can survive over an extended fight and are not as susceptible to AoE or being burst down. Stealth is a form of bunker just like retaliation and blocks. Thieves may not be face tanking like other classes, but they can still mitigate a considerable amount of damage.

I run a mix of Knights and Cavaliers as well as go 30 in SA with Shadow’s Rejuvenation (unbuffed 2700 toughness, 100 CD, 2k power). While my initial sting isn’t high, my sustained DPS is good and survivability is very good.

Evasion is not the same as mitigation, evasion is 100% reliant on player input. Every class has access to evasion. Stealth does not mitigate damage. Thieves take 100% damage while stealthed. Shadow’s rejuvenation is a regenerative effect not a form of mitigation. You only heal if you are already damaged. It does not prevent or reduce damage in any way.

There is a big difference in survivability between a PVT thief and say…a PVT Guardian/Warrior/Mesmer/Engineer/Necro. Even in a full bunker gearset, a thief isn’t tanky. Saying that stealth is a form of bunker is straight stupid. It is in no way shape or form even remotely close to invuln/block/aegis/protection. One requires you to actively avoid damage through positioning and evasion, the others allow you to passively ignore damage.

Things like retaliation, protection, and invuln only make bunker stronger on those classes. Thief has….oh yeah none of those. Try to call me wrong all you want, a bunker thief is still squishy.

The only reason I can see to run a bunker thief is:

1. If you are commanding.
2. If you want to troll groups of bads for the sole purpose of wasting everyone’s time.
3. You are S/D and your damage is thus primarily loaded into your AA anyway.

A bunker guardian is scary. A bunker thief is a loot bag.

Renxian.6982:

Evasion is not the same as mitigation, evasion is 100% reliant on player input. Every class has access to evasion. Stealth does not mitigate damage. Thieves take 100% damage while stealthed. Shadow’s rejuvenation is a regenerative effect not a form of mitigation. You only heal if you are already damaged. It does not prevent or reduce damage in any way.

Call it what you want, but stealth lessons total damage but does not eliminate it which is mitigation. Stealthed players can still be effected by AoE, conditions and skills activated before stealthing but targeted skills after stealth are no longer effective.

Renxian.6982:

There is a big difference in survivability between a PVT thief and say…a PVT Guardian/Warrior/Mesmer/Engineer/Necro. Even in a full bunker gearset, a thief isn’t tanky. Saying that stealth is a form of bunker is straight stupid. It is in no way shape or form even remotely close to invuln/block/aegis/protection. One requires you to actively avoid damage through positioning and evasion, the others allow you to passively ignore damage.

Few of those abilities happen passively. Given your narrow definition of mitigate invuln, retaliation and blocking wouldn’t fit since they eliminate not mitigate damage.

Bunkers use a variety of skills and traits to MANAGE incoming damage. Stealth does indeed manage damage. That is why thieves can be ridiculously hard to kill. Harder to kill than any bunker when played well. Whether it is retaliation or stealth both skills actively reduce total incoming damage whether you want to admit it or not.

Renxian.6982:

A bunker guardian is scary. A bunker thief is a loot bag.

Putting blinders on to other ways to play a class is limiting yourself. Have you ever tried a healing thief build? One of the best thieves on EBay runs a D/D S/D healing thief build that zerg surfs with excellent results. The build is viable and I would say exceptional for skirmishing. Even my own K/D ratio is respectable considering I solo/skirmish 80% of the time.

Straegen.2938:

Renxian.6982:

Evasion is not the same as mitigation, evasion is 100% reliant on player input. Every class has access to evasion. Stealth does not mitigate damage. Thieves take 100% damage while stealthed. Shadow’s rejuvenation is a regenerative effect not a form of mitigation. You only heal if you are already damaged. It does not prevent or reduce damage in any way.

Call it what you want, but stealth lessons total damage but does not eliminate it which is mitigation. Stealthed players can still be effected by AoE, conditions and skills activated before stealthing but targeted skills after stealth are no longer effective.

Renxian.6982:

There is a big difference in survivability between a PVT thief and say…a PVT Guardian/Warrior/Mesmer/Engineer/Necro. Even in a full bunker gearset, a thief isn’t tanky. Saying that stealth is a form of bunker is straight stupid. It is in no way shape or form even remotely close to invuln/block/aegis/protection. One requires you to actively avoid damage through positioning and evasion, the others allow you to passively ignore damage.

Few of those abilities happen passively. Given your narrow definition of mitigate invuln, retaliation and blocking wouldn’t fit since they eliminate not mitigate damage.

Bunkers use a variety of skills and traits to MANAGE incoming damage. Stealth does indeed manage damage. That is why thieves can be ridiculously hard to kill. Harder to kill than any bunker when played well. Whether it is retaliation or stealth both skills actively reduce total incoming damage whether you want to admit it or not.

Renxian.6982:

A bunker guardian is scary. A bunker thief is a loot bag.

Putting blinders on to other ways to play a class is limiting yourself. Have you ever tried a healing thief build? One of the best thieves on EBay runs a D/D S/D healing thief build that zerg surfs with excellent results. The build is viable and I would say exceptional for skirmishing. Even my own K/D ratio is respectable considering I solo/skirmish 80% of the time.

I’ve played many many builds, I am not sure what healing build you are referring to specifically. I respect traits at least once a week to try random crap. I have played condition, bunker, D/D, P/P, D/P, S/D, S/P, Glass Cannon, Hybrid (rampager’s gear), and probably more I have forgotten. I don’t operate with blinders on, I’ve played it. If I wanted to do no damage and still have to worry about my healthbar constantly I would play my uplevel ranger.

I usually do not kitten about thieves but I do find it funny how Anet tossed roaming goodness and burst into one class. I do not think thieves will get toned down anymore but I only have one toon where I can nearly guarantee landing a burst and getting away with it. That would be thief.

A relatively tanky toon getting kitten by a thief. /shrug not much you can do but accept them or play one. Also mind you this applies to roaming only when it comes to zerging taking a keep etc besides some stealth portal thief is nigh useless.

2.7k armor is relatively tanky? I’m at 2.1k toughness alone.. I think 1.5k Vit.. (at work so I don’t remember)

Sidenote.. is that karma chest or arah?

erm, i am a Mesmer i have MORE toughness (nearly 400 more) and you barely have any more Armor then me. I wouldnt call that tanky.

Whats your stats WITHOUT the buffs and food?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

erm, i am a Mesmer i have MORE toughness (nearly 400 more) and you barely have any more Armor then me. I wouldnt call that tanky.

Whats your stats WITHOUT the buffs and food?

Adding to this: Your precision is super high. I can get to 50% as a warrior with ONLY berserker weapons, 25 stacks of precision, oil buff and fury. Needing any prec on your armor is waste of stats that could make your tankier. I run 50% chance and 41% damage with 2.1k though and 1.6k vitality. Very def build too.

LilMcGinley.3890:

2.7k armor is relatively tanky? I’m at 2.1k toughness alone.. I think 1.5k Vit.. (at work so I don’t remember)

Sidenote.. is that karma chest or arah?

2,700-3,000 armor is right around the big drop off in diminishing returns to armor. 22k hp (24 due to world buffs) is still on the tanky side (low end but still the tanky side). I did not say mobile tank look how high my def is did I? My build has perma fury but I was not up in that picture. Karma.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Adding to this: Your precision is super high. I can get to 50% as a warrior with ONLY berserker weapons, 25 stacks of precision, oil buff and fury. Needing any prec on your armor is waste of stats that could make your tankier. I run 50% chance and 41% damage with 2.1k though and 1.6k vitality. Very def build too.

At 2.1k toughness as warrior your wasting stats. That is what 3,300 armor.or so. The only reason to run that much is for front line assaulting and not roaming. Even if you were front line your’e wasting stat points. If would take too long to down a camp with that type of build (power precision and crit damage on the low side). Considering the conversation is about roaming solo I would say a build with that much toughness would not be for flipping but zerging. Something you should read before making assertions (Here)

I wouldn’t waist my buffs of precision when you can get stun duration reduction condition reduction and more power. With stats like that your power must be in 1,400-1,600 range? Roaming with a build like that would make killing guards very slow.
Also I prefer power as my addition whether it be from might or blood lust. Many players have discussed this and in most cases Power>All. (See and this) However, there are a number or post about this many worth reading.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

erm, i am a Mesmer i have MORE toughness (nearly 400 more) and you barely have any more Armor then me. I wouldnt call that tanky.

Whats your stats WITHOUT the buffs and food?

there was no food buff in that picture. Your mesmer is likely knights. Be mindful my stats are more balanced toward being slightly tanky without a great deal of DPS sacrifice. this is something you can only really do on a warrior trying to balance stats on a needle point. there is no point comparing it to your mesmer as armor rating and hp rating are hugely varied between the 2. Even as a mesmer running as much armor as I do would kitten your dps significantly while improving your survivability marginally as you survive on mesmer through evasion not face tanking.

If you check my stats they are balanced between defense and offense. It is a perma fury build so my crit chance is perpetually at 58% however since my build has a good deal of might applied with that I opted to show my stats as they are with ) buffs but account for that 58% none the less.

My Mesmer isnt in Knights gear and you DO have buffs thats why some of your stats are green. as shown in your 2nd pics you dropped damage, i am guessing its the sigil for added power on kill.

i am not a power Mes, i am a Condition Mesmer with added Stealth Utility

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

My Mesmer isnt in Knights gear and you DO have buffs thats why some of your stats are green. as shown in your 2nd pics you dropped damage, i am guessing its the sigil for added power on kill.

i am not a power Mes, i am a Condition Mesmer with added Stealth Utility

I meant food buffs. If your condi damage that is an entirely different story. That puts you in Rabid gear. You can not compare a condi build and a power build apples and oranges and the wrong classes to compare in the first place.

Not gonna quote ya since it’s huge…

Yes, my build is for front line tank in Tier 1 NA WvW, pure 30 man team so items you listed in your response don’t really apply to me. I die maybe once a night, if at all. Sadly this topic isn’t about warrior builds, we have a separate forum for that.

I don’t really believe in the “2700 sweetspot” in the topics you linked. You need more than that for WvW, that’s for sure and your post here proves that. If you want to do DPS, you have to out DPS your target, if you go Tank you have to out last your target, by working in both, you do neither and become an easy kill.

There are good roaming builds for warrior – but a slightly tanky slightly power build isn’t one of them.

PS: What dyes are those?

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

My Mesmer isnt in Knights gear and you DO have buffs thats why some of your stats are green. as shown in your 2nd pics you dropped damage, i am guessing its the sigil for added power on kill.

i am not a power Mes, i am a Condition Mesmer with added Stealth Utility

I meant food buffs. If your condi damage that is an entirely different story. That puts you in Rabid gear. You can not compare a condi build and a power build apples and oranges and the wrong classes to compare in the first place.

“A relatively tanky toon” was his statement. I am not a Tank build so that was the point i am making, he thinks he is a “tanky” spec when its not. Having a bit of toughness and health doesnt make you a tank spec.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

My Mesmer isnt in Knights gear and you DO have buffs thats why some of your stats are green. as shown in your 2nd pics you dropped damage, i am guessing its the sigil for added power on kill.

i am not a power Mes, i am a Condition Mesmer with added Stealth Utility

I meant food buffs. If your condi damage that is an entirely different story. That puts you in Rabid gear. You can not compare a condi build and a power build apples and oranges and the wrong classes to compare in the first place.

“A relatively tanky toon” was his statement. I am not a Tank build so that was the point i am making, he thinks he is a “tanky” spec when its not. Having a bit of toughness and health doesnt make you a tank spec.

Learn the definition of relatively. Do you understand what word means now? It’s not a tank spec. Never said it was (if you knew what the word relatively means you would never have posted). Now you can argue about interpretation but I do not see the point. Your’e trying set up absolute values on tankiness without understanding the class. Yes you can go bunker but I never said bunker I said tanky ie I can take a hit. It is not glass cannon or is all this way too hard to understand? Right now you are arguing over my use of the word tanky in a build with 2,700 armor and 22k HP and it doesn’t have a kittening thing to do with the subject matter of the thread. But please continue you intellectual and informative analysis is amazing.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Not gonna quote ya since it’s huge…

Yes, my build is for front line tank in Tier 1 NA WvW, pure 30 man team so items you listed in your response don’t really apply to me. I die maybe once a night, if at all. Sadly this topic isn’t about warrior builds, we have a separate forum for that.

I don’t really believe in the “2700 sweetspot” in the topics you linked. You need more than that for WvW, that’s for sure and your post here proves that. If you want to do DPS, you have to out DPS your target, if you go Tank you have to out last your target, by working in both, you do neither and become an easy kill.

There are good roaming builds for warrior – but a slightly tanky slightly power build isn’t one of them.

PS: What dyes are those?

And you are basing this on what? You are discussing roaming while being a 30 man zerger. I never said I have an issue roaming. Even one get killed from time to time roaming. Of course not you because you do not roam. You said this discussion is not about warrior builds yet you brought it up. You no idea how well I roam or do not roam. I never mentioned. Also if you did roam. You would know the main element to roaming is flipping. Not engaging in duels. Its not always about winning rights. The idea is to stay mobile and take smaller points while the main force engages bigger targets. Do you understand? I could run a dueling spec with unsuspecting foe most valk and knight armor and win most 3 v 1 but that would cause me to sacrifice dps on guards nodes and camps where speed is key. I do not really like having to explain this as most experienced WvW players already know this.

Also without knowing the full details of my build how would you possibility know what defenses. I have? You do not because as you said this isn’t a place for warrior build discussion. You saw some numbers and felt like posting. I get that. However, clearly you are not informed and making many assumption. Now if you want to discuss builds we can on the warrior forums. If you understand what a lyssa build is you would realize it is one of the more common ones for roaming. In fact my build 0 0 30 30 10 is one of the most common builds for roaming (I take a camp in about 1min to 1:30min). I would suggest you brush up on your warrior builds. Because simply by you listing your stats I figured out your builds and its purpose. You could not do the same with mine.

I honestly do not know why we are discussing this?

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

My Mesmer isnt in Knights gear and you DO have buffs thats why some of your stats are green. as shown in your 2nd pics you dropped damage, i am guessing its the sigil for added power on kill.

i am not a power Mes, i am a Condition Mesmer with added Stealth Utility

I meant food buffs. If your condi damage that is an entirely different story. That puts you in Rabid gear. You can not compare a condi build and a power build apples and oranges and the wrong classes to compare in the first place.

“A relatively tanky toon” was his statement. I am not a Tank build so that was the point i am making, he thinks he is a “tanky” spec when its not. Having a bit of toughness and health doesnt make you a tank spec.

Learn the definition of relatively. Do you understand what word means now? It’s not a tank spec. Never said it was (if you knew what the word relatively means you would never have posted). Now you can argue about interpretation but I do not see the point. Your’e trying set up absolute values on tankiness without understanding the class. Yes you can go bunker but I never said bunker I said tanky ie I can take a hit. It is not glass cannon or is all this way too hard to understand? Right now you are arguing over my use of the word tanky in a build with 2,700 armor and 22k HP and it doesn’t have a kittening thing to do with the subject matter of the thread. But please continue you intellectual and informative analysis is amazing.

EVERY class can take a hit…
“relatively” is down to opinion, sure its in the middle but closer to being Tank/bunker then being Glass cannon and that was my point. Having decent toughness and Health isnt “tanky” you have to consider the skills and traits as well.

You could go FULL into Health and Toughness and take NO traits that benefit a tank/bunker build and take skills and weapons that dont benefit it. Does that mean i am “tanky” simply because i have high health and toughness? No it doesnt. But of course that is down to opinion

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

My Mesmer isnt in Knights gear and you DO have buffs thats why some of your stats are green. as shown in your 2nd pics you dropped damage, i am guessing its the sigil for added power on kill.

i am not a power Mes, i am a Condition Mesmer with added Stealth Utility

I meant food buffs. If your condi damage that is an entirely different story. That puts you in Rabid gear. You can not compare a condi build and a power build apples and oranges and the wrong classes to compare in the first place.

“A relatively tanky toon” was his statement. I am not a Tank build so that was the point i am making, he thinks he is a “tanky” spec when its not. Having a bit of toughness and health doesnt make you a tank spec.

Learn the definition of relatively. Do you understand what word means now? It’s not a tank spec. Never said it was (if you knew what the word relatively means you would never have posted). Now you can argue about interpretation but I do not see the point. Your’e trying set up absolute values on tankiness without understanding the class. Yes you can go bunker but I never said bunker I said tanky ie I can take a hit. It is not glass cannon or is all this way too hard to understand? Right now you are arguing over my use of the word tanky in a build with 2,700 armor and 22k HP and it doesn’t have a kittening thing to do with the subject matter of the thread. But please continue you intellectual and informative analysis is amazing.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Not gonna quote ya since it’s huge…

Yes, my build is for front line tank in Tier 1 NA WvW, pure 30 man team so items you listed in your response don’t really apply to me. I die maybe once a night, if at all. Sadly this topic isn’t about warrior builds, we have a separate forum for that.

I don’t really believe in the “2700 sweetspot” in the topics you linked. You need more than that for WvW, that’s for sure and your post here proves that. If you want to do DPS, you have to out DPS your target, if you go Tank you have to out last your target, by working in both, you do neither and become an easy kill.

There are good roaming builds for warrior – but a slightly tanky slightly power build isn’t one of them.

PS: What dyes are those?

And you are basing this on what? You are discussing roaming while being a 30 man zerger. I never said I have an issue roaming. Even one get killed from time to time roaming. Of course not you because you do not roam. You said this discussion is not about warrior builds yet you brought it up. You no idea how well I roam or do not roam. I never mentioned. Also if you did roam. You would know the main element to roaming is flipping. Not engaging in duels. Its not always about winning rights. The idea is to stay mobile and take smaller points while the main force engages bigger targets. Do you understand? I could run a dueling spec with unsuspecting foe most valk and knight armor and win most 3 v 1 but that would cause me to sacrifice dps on guards nodes and camps where speed is key. I do not really like having to explain this as most experienced WvW players already know this.

Also without knowing the full details of my build how would you possibility know what defenses. I have? You do not because as you said this isn’t a place for warrior build discussion. You saw some numbers and felt like posting. I get that. However, clearly you are not informed and making many assumption. Now if you want to discuss builds we can on the warrior forums. If you understand what a lyssa build is you would realize it is one of the more common ones for roaming. In fact my build 0 0 30 30 10 is one of the most common builds for roaming (I take a camp in about 1min to 1:30min). I would suggest you brush up on your warrior builds. Because simply by you listing your stats I figured out your builds and its purpose. You could not do the same with mine.

I honestly do not know why we are discussing this?

You posted a screenshot of just your stats and cry about dying to a thief.. and you expect us to know what you are running?? We can only go off information you provide…

I know how to roam, I spent 3 months in T8 with 4-5 man teams, I know how to roam. I just don’t sit on forums and complain about it when I die.

More importantly you didn’t answer my very important question: what dyes are those?

LilMcGinley.3890:

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

TheGuy.3568:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

My Mesmer isnt in Knights gear and you DO have buffs thats why some of your stats are green. as shown in your 2nd pics you dropped damage, i am guessing its the sigil for added power on kill.

i am not a power Mes, i am a Condition Mesmer with added Stealth Utility

I meant food buffs. If your condi damage that is an entirely different story. That puts you in Rabid gear. You can not compare a condi build and a power build apples and oranges and the wrong classes to compare in the first place.

“A relatively tanky toon” was his statement. I am not a Tank build so that was the point i am making, he thinks he is a “tanky” spec when its not. Having a bit of toughness and health doesnt make you a tank spec.

Learn the definition of relatively. Do you understand what word means now? It’s not a tank spec. Never said it was (if you knew what the word relatively means you would never have posted). Now you can argue about interpretation but I do not see the point. Your’e trying set up absolute values on tankiness without understanding the class. Yes you can go bunker but I never said bunker I said tanky ie I can take a hit. It is not glass cannon or is all this way too hard to understand? Right now you are arguing over my use of the word tanky in a build with 2,700 armor and 22k HP and it doesn’t have a kittening thing to do with the subject matter of the thread. But please continue you intellectual and informative analysis is amazing.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Not gonna quote ya since it’s huge…

Yes, my build is for front line tank in Tier 1 NA WvW, pure 30 man team so items you listed in your response don’t really apply to me. I die maybe once a night, if at all. Sadly this topic isn’t about warrior builds, we have a separate forum for that.

I don’t really believe in the “2700 sweetspot” in the topics you linked. You need more than that for WvW, that’s for sure and your post here proves that. If you want to do DPS, you have to out DPS your target, if you go Tank you have to out last your target, by working in both, you do neither and become an easy kill.

There are good roaming builds for warrior – but a slightly tanky slightly power build isn’t one of them.

PS: What dyes are those?

And you are basing this on what? You are discussing roaming while being a 30 man zerger. I never said I have an issue roaming. Even one get killed from time to time roaming. Of course not you because you do not roam. You said this discussion is not about warrior builds yet you brought it up. You no idea how well I roam or do not roam. I never mentioned. Also if you did roam. You would know the main element to roaming is flipping. Not engaging in duels. Its not always about winning rights. The idea is to stay mobile and take smaller points while the main force engages bigger targets. Do you understand? I could run a dueling spec with unsuspecting foe most valk and knight armor and win most 3 v 1 but that would cause me to sacrifice dps on guards nodes and camps where speed is key. I do not really like having to explain this as most experienced WvW players already know this.

Also without knowing the full details of my build how would you possibility know what defenses. I have? You do not because as you said this isn’t a place for warrior build discussion. You saw some numbers and felt like posting. I get that. However, clearly you are not informed and making many assumption. Now if you want to discuss builds we can on the warrior forums. If you understand what a lyssa build is you would realize it is one of the more common ones for roaming. In fact my build 0 0 30 30 10 is one of the most common builds for roaming (I take a camp in about 1min to 1:30min). I would suggest you brush up on your warrior builds. Because simply by you listing your stats I figured out your builds and its purpose. You could not do the same with mine.

I honestly do not know why we are discussing this?

You posted a screenshot of just your stats and cry about dying to a thief.. and you expect us to know what you are running?? We can only go off information you provide…

I know how to roam, I spent 3 months in T8 with 4-5 man teams, I know how to roam. I just don’t sit on forums and complain about it when I die.

More importantly you didn’t answer my very important question: what dyes are those?

All his accessories are Zerker which is a major problem. He probably slapped on some Knight’s armour and called it a day. I consider my builds balanced and they run either 1.8k+ toughness or 16k toughness with extra vitality. My Guardian is all Knights and has 2k+ toughness.

LilMcGinley.3890:

You posted a screenshot of just your stats and cry about dying to a thief.. and you expect us to know what you are running?? We can only go off information you provide…

I know how to roam, I spent 3 months in T8 with 4-5 man teams, I know how to roam. I just don’t sit on forums and complain about it when I die.

More importantly you didn’t answer my very important question: what dyes are those?

T8 lol T8 gtfo of here. T1 Black Gate solo roaming for 5 months now. Also the post is about solo roaming so your 4-5 man experience in T8 (seriously T8??) isn’t worth a thing. Its really funny now that I think about. I wasn’t that upset. I never even said nerf thief. In fact I have a 80 thief made before my warrior that i used to roam with. If you read the first part of my post you would have realized that. I guess you didn’t. I even say where thief is deficient (from personal knowledge btw) to give some scope. Some times when you solo roam you get caught by a thief. However, you would know that leading a 30 man zerg around.

You do not know how to roam your comments alone confirm this. Last I checked you wanted to start some big discussion over my use of the word “tanky”.

Regale me with stories about how your 4-5 man team taught you all about solo roaming.

Dual.8953:

All his accessories are Zerker which is a major problem. He probably slapped on some Knight’s armour and called it a day. I consider my builds balanced and they run either 1.8k+ toughness or 16k toughness with extra vitality. My Guardian is all Knights and has 2k+ toughness.

Technically not all of them but yes nearly all of them. I run no knights armor (stats would tell you that if you looked at them toughness too low vitality too high) This is also irrelevant. 1.8k toughness would put you around what 3k armor which is a whopping 6% damage reduction difference from 2,700.

Lets do the math on the burst I ate. It totals 19853 × .94 = 18661.82 the difference in damage would be 1191.18 less from that entire chain. Which isn’t even close enough to justify running it. You get caught by thief sometimes full glass balanced or otherwise.

Considering your builds balanced and having them be balanced are 2 very separate things. Also if you play guardian what balanced for you will be different than warrior.

Edit:

On another note as thief I stay clear of guardians same on warrior. Fighting most guardian in melee is insanely tough. but due to their limited chase skills its an easy opponent to skip over and continue roaming. Sometime I give them a love tap to see where their defense is at if there is no guard post or camp to take nearby.

LilMcGinley.3890:

I don’t really believe in the “2700 sweetspot” in the topics you linked. You need more than that for WvW, that’s for sure and your post here proves that. If you want to do DPS, you have to out DPS your target, if you go Tank you have to out last your target, by working in both, you do neither and become an easy kill.

This is too complex to pigeonhole. Toughness requirements vary greatly based on HP pool, build mobility, play style and dozens of other factors.

Locking into blanket rules about what should and should not be done in WvW is highly limiting and IMO plays right into skilled players hands who are used to seeing forum paint-by-number builds.

Renxian.6982:

deracs.1762:

Aberrant.6749:

deracs.1762:

Aberrant.6749:

Raestloz.7134:

I like it that you focus only “how to fight a thief” and not “how ridiculous the concept of stealth is”. Guess what? My highlight is the latter.

Ok… so you don’t like stealth regardless that you can beat some one using it… yet you chose a game where any class can stealth & leap away… and now are asking for a change to make the game like how YOU want it to be? Wat?

Sorry that I assumed you were asking for ways to fight some one using stealth. I won’t waste any more of my time with this then ^^

Give it up on the absolutely ridiculous argument that any class can stealth nonsense. If you can’t see the difference between having to use a racial ELITE ability once every 3 minutes vs a thief who can stealth any time and as often as the want, then no, you are right no one is listening to you. You also continue to ignore the meat of the thread which is the truly bad stealth mechanics in this game and how it effects “one on one” fights. Unlimited any time stealth is a truly stupid mechanic

It’s not ridiculous, it’s a valid point. Sorry if you don’t like it… but it’s a part of the game.

People are complaining that a thief can escape a fight. With that eliete you can escape a fight by stealthing and leaping. Thieves give up other things to be able to disengage easily.

Other classes don’t give up the same things… and can still disengage easily at the cost of an eliete. With it every 3 mins you can stealth and leap every 10s for 30s. I think that’s fair. I don’t see what the cooldown really has to do with it… unless it’s that a thief can do it more often? How often are you really needing to escape? Heck I usually don’t even need stealth to escape on my other classes…

If they are perma stealthing they aren’t hurting you… so what the kitten is it really doing? It’s not any time stealth btw… there is this revealed debuff which prevents that.

Of course it is a silly argument. If you take one aspect of an overall discussion and twist it to make a point. Everyone can have access to stealth therefore stealth is equal for all is foolish.
If we want to use that logic lets take one of your earlier statements

“The thief can disengage when they want to… but that’s part of the class design. In fact… they NEED to disengage and re-engage frequently. They lack staying power”

Well any thief has access to the same toughness gear that all classes do, can be totally bunker for survivability, therefore they don’t need stealth or “need” to disengage therefore we are all equal

Of course what I said is a stupid argument. Go back to the beginning of the thread, read why I disagree with stealth overall (in all games). I realize you wont agree with me which is fine but at least my argument looked at more then 1 situation to argue over

It takes more than some PVT gear to make a char a bunker. There is a reason that guardians and Ele’s make amazing bunkers and thieves may as well not show up if they are bunker.

I mainly use a combination of soldier’s, knight’s, and cavalier’s gear with ruby jewels on my thief and rarely ever stealth outside of shadow refuge. I just run up to people with dual pistols and blast them. The blind doesn’t hurt either. You absolutely can make a tanky thief if you want to. It’s just that most refuse to try anything outside of the annoying permastealth troll build.

I just nuked a thief with a zerk signet ranger. No ranger fears a thief.

Chopps.5047:

I just nuked a thief with a zerk signet ranger. No ranger fears a thief.

Oh then it`s clear. Any ranger with a zerk signet can kill any thief.

Erzian.5218:

@Fenrir.6183:
Either you are a huge troll or absolutely clueless. This build and its equipment choice are terrible for roaming and even worse in general.
I’m pretty sure if the majority of wvw thieves did actually run this build, there would be much less complaints:
- No sufficient initiative management and therefore less access to stealth
- less burst damage than decent d/d specs
- waste of a trait (hidden thief)
-why the hell would you run full berserker and a +5% crit chance sigil when you have the hidden killer trait?
I honestly don’t understand why you tell people to l2p, when you obviously don’t even know how the standard back-stab combo works because if you did, you wouldn’t run hidden thief, which in fact reduces the combo’s damage while there are at least 3 other traits that are better in the same slot.

I think you’re the one that has no clue. This build works perfectly for roaming and you have quite enough initiative to get in stealth. Maybe you should try it before telling me i don’t know how thief works, because when i’m using this build in wvw i do kill most roamers i cross path with (assuming it’s 1v1). Hidden thief is a really good trait…sure executioner sounds great too but i’m actually relying a lot on backstab damage, i don’t want half of them to do 1/3 of the damage it could actually do. Maybe you don’t understand but i don’t care, this build is great in wvw for roaming, believe it or not. If you tried and are whining because you don’t know how to play and need more initiative to be effective, try switching shadow’s embrace for infusion of shadows. That should be enough..because you might not know it but you can’t re-stealth instantly.
Also, you might not know but the actual weapon skills do damage as well. So having more crit (which is obviously a good idea with that much crit damage) means much more damage as well. Try some theorycraft, use numbers and then test it on the field…
Steal (you’re now in stealth and target is poisoned and has taken damage) if you weren’t already in stealth / backstab / 3x #1 / *CnD / backstab / heartseeker *might need steal instead depending on wether the guy moved far away or not if you have it up. Sure there might be better combos “on paper” but when you actually play the game, you don’t always have every cooldown available, opponents actually move and don’t stay still and you also take damage and need to dodge. Play the game instead of bashing people because on paper their build hasn’t got the BEST BURST OMFGLOL11!

Chopps.5047:

I just nuked a thief with a zerk signet ranger. No ranger fears a thief.

This just made me laugh. No, just no. I’m sorry. I love ranger but it stands no chance against even a semi-conscious thief. When I come across zerk rangers I can tank most of their damage on my thief. When I see rangers I just toss radiation field on them so they do even less damage than normal to my already tanky thief build and the poison stops a lot of their insane healing. The blinds protect me as well, and I still do enough damage to tear them a new anus in seconds. And rarely ever play my thief, I really dislike the class so I barely play it, it’s not like i’m a pro thief or anything. I’ll never understand why Anet nerfed Rangers. The pets weren’t that great to begin with, was totally unneccesary.

TheGuy.3568:

LilMcGinley.3890:

You posted a screenshot of just your stats and cry about dying to a thief.. and you expect us to know what you are running?? We can only go off information you provide…

I know how to roam, I spent 3 months in T8 with 4-5 man teams, I know how to roam. I just don’t sit on forums and complain about it when I die.

More importantly you didn’t answer my very important question: what dyes are those?

T8 lol T8 gtfo of here. T1 Black Gate solo roaming for 5 months now. Also the post is about solo roaming so your 4-5 man experience in T8 (seriously T8??) isn’t worth a thing. Its really funny now that I think about. I wasn’t that upset. I never even said nerf thief. In fact I have a 80 thief made before my warrior that i used to roam with. If you read the first part of my post you would have realized that. I guess you didn’t. I even say where thief is deficient (from personal knowledge btw) to give some scope. Some times when you solo roam you get caught by a thief. However, you would know that leading a 30 man zerg around.

You do not know how to roam your comments alone confirm this. Last I checked you wanted to start some big discussion over my use of the word “tanky”.

Regale me with stories about how your 4-5 man team taught you all about solo roaming.

tldr – what dyes are those?

Nikkinella.8254:

This just made me laugh. No, just no. I’m sorry. I love ranger but it stands no chance against even a semi-conscious thief.

And rarely ever play my thief, I really dislike the class so I barely play it, it’s not like i’m a pro thief or anything. I’ll never understand why Anet nerfed Rangers. The pets weren’t that great to begin with, was totally unneccesary.

Prior to the latest patch Rangers were sPvP powerful. Sickem with a stealthed jag would clock many thieves for more than half their HP. Pile on conditions while running regen and most thieves (as well as many other classes) melted. Not a lot of that style ranger showed up for WvW, but when I got a hold of one it was a REALLY tough fight. They had nearly as much mobility, very fast escape system on the GS and their regen can be really hard to overcome.

The class needs love to find its place in WvW. It certainly doesn’t help that PvE based players do the “lean back” and barrage which is the same as ringing the dinner bell in WvW.

Nikkinella.8254:

Chopps.5047:

I just nuked a thief with a zerk signet ranger. No ranger fears a thief.

This just made me laugh. No, just no. I’m sorry. I love ranger but it stands no chance against even a semi-conscious thief. When I come across zerk rangers I can tank most of their damage on my thief. When I see rangers I just toss radiation field on them so they do even less damage than normal to my already tanky thief build and the poison stops a lot of their insane healing. The blinds protect me as well, and I still do enough damage to tear them a new anus in seconds. And rarely ever play my thief, I really dislike the class so I barely play it, it’s not like i’m a pro thief or anything. I’ll never understand why Anet nerfed Rangers. The pets weren’t that great to begin with, was totally unneccesary.

23k maul build thread on ranger forums right now. Again, I nuked a thief. There was no fight. There was a single maul and it was over.

1 shot. With ranger. >:)

You may love ranger, but you don’t know ranger. (i have 2200 hours on ranger, every stat set available for wvw from dungeon runs and gold; high level FOTM player; 10,000 wvw kills; friends with some of the best ranger players around—they teach me so much! There’s so much you don’t know about my profession!)

On the contrary, I, sir, laugh at you. Especially for the notion that rangers are weak or pets are unnecessary. You know what’s unnecessary? Your foolish opinion!

Here’s the link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6H4ILEsYKEc%26feature%3Dyoutu.be

Eat your heart out, thieves.

Fenrir.6183:

I think you’re the one that has no clue. This build works perfectly for roaming and you have quite enough initiative to get in stealth. Maybe you should try it before telling me i don’t know how thief works, because when i’m using this build in wvw i do kill most roamers i cross path with (assuming it’s 1v1). Hidden thief is a really good trait…sure executioner sounds great too but i’m actually relying a lot on backstab damage, i don’t want half of them to do 1/3 of the damage it could actually do.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
vs
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer

learn the difference instead of embarrassing yourself

Fenrir.6183

Also, you might not know but the actual weapon skills do damage as well. So having more crit (which is obviously a good idea with that much crit damage) means much more damage as well. Try some theorycraft, use numbers and then test it on the field…

Do you realize that your 2 most powerful attacks do have a 100% crit chance, so adding some survivability in form of Valkyrie-gear is advisable. Not 100% sure atm but I also think the 5% more damage sigil is generally better in a d/d build that utilizes hidden killer.
edit: doing some math: even without hidden killer the 5% damage sigil does more dmg than the +5%crit chance if you you take the crit. chance of the build you linked.

Fenrir.6183

Steal (you’re now in stealth and target is poisoned and has taken damage) if you weren’t already in stealth / backstab / 3x #1 / *CnD / backstab / heartseeker *might need steal instead depending on wether the guy moved far away or not if you have it up. Sure there might be better combos “on paper” but when you actually play the game, you don’t always have every cooldown available, opponents actually move and don’t stay still and you also take damage and need to dodge. Play the game instead of bashing people because on paper their build hasn’t got the BEST BURST OMFGLOL11!

How exactly it this better than cnd+steal -> backstab -> follow the rest of your combo? It costs 2 initiative more while doing an additional 3-5k dmg, giving you overall better initiative management (due to Infusion of Shadow instead of Hidden Thief) and increasing your backstab and the following AA chain’s damage by 3%.

Aberrant.6749:

Dual.8953:

Why is this a thief thread now?

Every thread about being solo in WvW eventually becomes a thief QQ thread : /

First of all sorry for the lvl of engrish (bad english spoken).

Very true becouse players think armor can reduce damage more than it does, here goes an example:

As a guardian i run 2 builds 1 for group and other for small group or solo, in the group im dammnly bulky but not doing damage only 2.8k atack with 22k health and 3.7k-3.8k armor with boon and some extra buffs, in this case if try solo a thief he will shred me in seconds couse DAMAGE is the most important stats (in terms of importance damage > toughness) in this game and he still can crit over 5k-6k on my stats (warrior can hit over 15k with boon hating dps role) whili i do 700 to 1k damag, thats why there is ONLY the DPS role mixtured with other roles, as far i try to hit the thief he will cloack and hit me back always with higther damage, my healing power cant cover nor reduce thiefs fast atacks damage, and my health bar ceases to end.

With the critical guardian build i can crit over 5k-8k on light armor users as thiefs can crit over 12k (yeah zerk/valk guardian) but if thiefs notice they are taking alot of damage they are forced to retreat, usually end with thief being CC with 5th 2h sword skill combined with hammer 5th and then kill if possible.

What i want to say is that on this game mechanics no matter how much defense you run mean nothing, and squishy sometimes can be good, if you have a large damage ouput, will obliterate any toughness value.

P.S group warrior boon hater with a thief, use thief to pop out Aegis and mess with guardian and forcing him to use is max number of boons at this momment, warrior can kill with one shoot the guardian.

Ive seen guardians(arround 16k health) in front of me being from 100% health to downstate from rifle boon hating warriors, with the thief apearin just to finish him.

Blame game design not thiefs.. when i room with my thief guardian are always the easiest to kill.