Guild Wars 2

I’m sick of them. Guilty as well. How do we fix the problem?

I’m thinking it’s a factor we have to deal with as commanders.

Thoughts anyone?

>spying

Since release i was spying and deployed spies in enemy alliances, TS`es, forums, guilds – both of direct rivals we fought against and other major forces in US like say Team Legacy or Titan for sake of getting info about tactics, organization and strategy we could use.

TS spying was effective, very. However we did not use it in the end, since it just kills the tension. When fighting say Blacktide and Far Shieverpeaks and knowing exactly where they go and what they do… its meh.

Strategical/tactical info… there were some thing, but mainly it seems we were the only ones taking strategy and organization seriously to degree enough to have secrets and things worth stealing (well, some US alliances did good job too).

So mostly spying for for diplomacy – all the political info, inner drama, diplomacy, knowing about enemy moral etc. Its not EVE, so in GW2 metagame spying quickly became irrelevant. It IS effective – especially TS spying and having players on other servers, but it simply not worth it: wining in that way is boring and people will complain if you always provide them with enemy movements and actions, since majority actually just wants to play normally.

Spying was part of metagame, still is to a degree, and is entirely normal. What i dont like is sabotaging- say wasting enemy supply, disinformation in map chat etc. but i am not aware of any organized effort for such things: just kitten individuals.

That said, if you ever fought against me – its very likely i read your forums, was on your TS, or was a member of the guild you length kicked for inactivity (even the spanish/french guys.. was amusing passing applications by google translated crafted dialogues). Spying is fun. However its belongs more to proper sandbox games, not big minigame like WvW where the best info you can fish for is enemy drama (which is only useful in forum battles).

How do you mean spying?

Transferring to another server to report on their movements? Getting into a voice chat server under false pretenses? Sitting around dead in a camp?

These all seem like very different things to me.

The only thing I think might be bannable would be the people who transfer to an opposing server and build flame rams on top of walls until siege cap is hit. Even then, I’m not sure if ANet can filter for that well enough to stop it reliably.

ethically bannable…

technically not because it is very hard to prove…..

Ethically yes I realize.

So for example. If I go over to a server for example hod.

Prove myself to be a spy for NSP. Command like a spy.

Get my reputation ruined.

Can I get banned.

I’m just sick of bring accused as a spy when that wasn’t the original intention and I just want people to actually play wvw on tier 7

since day 1, people are still using zoom hacks, fly hacks, speed hacks, lag hacks, mesmer exploit other expolits etc they havent got banned yet. so there is no way in the world anet will ban some one for spying.

Just making sure. Thanks!

Fenikkusu.1569:

.

Prove myself to be a spy for NSP.

I’m just sick of bring accused as a spy when that wasn’t the original intention

But… you were a spy. Look NSP’s reasons for hating your actions should be pretty obvious. HoD probably reacted the way they did because they have a lot of dedicated guilds that work hard for their victories and I’ll bet they don’t appreciate those victories being tarnished with credible accusations of cheating.

Because they do cheat? Everyone does.

Next question?

Fenikkusu.1569:

Because they do cheat? Everyone does.

Well no, not everyone cheats. And most that do have the good sense not to publicly announce it.

Spying will never be bannable but it will make a lot of people angry with you and get you blacklisted

Why would it be bannable?
It is part of war to find out the enemies position.

lordkrall.7241:

Why would it be bannable?
It is part of war to find out the enemies position.

That’s the purpose of scouting. Spying by having a player on the opponent’s team is really damageable to the whole server.

Witzard.6829:

That’s the purpose of scouting. Spying by having a player on the opponent’s team is really damageable to the whole server.

Actually unless they do the silly “build a million rams at keep”-thing it is not really damaging the server much at all.

On TC, we have reported persons over and over and over for sabotaging, such as building useless siege in EB, wasting supplies in keeps and taking golems from our keep and jump them off a cliff to destroy them, one by one.

We have sent screenshots, testimonies, videos…

ANet never did anything. Nothing. None. Nada.

I wish you all the best in your effort to make ANet do somthing about spies, when they don’t even do something about proven saboteurs.

I play on JQ and we have had spies on that server from other servers we have played against. There are some precautions taken to minimise the effects. Map and Team chat details should be kept at a minimum. Voice comms players need to be watched. Make it hard for “spys” to give decent information and they will most likely stop after a while. The biggest problem we have had is probably the player who was siege capping all 4 maps. It went on for about 2 weeks and stopped after that.

I hate spies.

So I can’t get bad for spying even though I don’t.

Is this the general consensus.

Yes you cannot get banned but you can get blacklisted

I’ve been blacklisted forever and a day. Why else am I here causing drama lol

lordkrall.7241:

Why would it be bannable?
It is part of war to find out the enemies position.

This isn’t war, this is a game. Games have rules. Breaking the rules requires punishment.

Well as long as I keep my game idc.

I don’t think you can get banned for spying but I am pretty sure you can get banned for sabotage/griefing. I have seen Anet say they want screenshots of the people sabotaging BL’s with siege so they can ban them. If you have a second account there is no way they could ban you for just spying.

I mean I have a ton of proof people sabotage.

Nothing happened.

Preacher.9018:

Spying was part of metagame, still is to a degree, and is entirely normal. What i dont like is sabotaging- say wasting enemy supply, disinformation in map chat etc. but i am not aware of any organized effort for such things: just kitten individuals.

I don’t think most of us here consider it normal. Its bad sportsmanship, equal to filming another football teams practice or reading their playbook. Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should, and Im betting 99% of us choose not to. Which makes you abnormal.

Because if anet wants to ban spies do I have a ton of proof for you

urzen.7096:

This isn’t war, this is a game. Games have rules. Breaking the rules requires punishment.

So.. where are the rules that forbids spying?

lordkrall.7241:

urzen.7096:

This isn’t war, this is a game. Games have rules. Breaking the rules requires punishment.

So.. where are the rules that forbids spying?

There isn’t one. Which has nothing to do with war.

urzen.7096:

There isn’t one. Which has nothing to do with war.

And yet this part of the game emulates war, therefore nothing should be against spying (which it isnt).
You were the one bringing up rules and being punished, which is quite pointless since said rules does not exist.

Crazy as it sounds…and boy is it, some people that build those rams actually are doing it for the achievements….I only know this because we absolutely had this happen, and the person turned out to be credible (IE: not trying to siege cap us), just did not realize that there was a cap in place and was bored working on an achievement.

Also they did this at a camp, which is in no way near as bad as doing it at a keep/SM etc.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Crazy as it sounds…and boy is it, some people that build those rams actually are doing it for the achievements….I only know this because we absolutely had this happen, and the person turned out to be credible (IE: not trying to siege cap us), just did not realize that there was a cap in place and was bored working on an achievement.

Also they did this at a camp, which is in no way near as bad as doing it at a keep/SM etc.

This is just kitten lol. It would take 25000 flame rams to get the achievement. If you could build 100 a night it would take you 8+ months of everyday doing this to get the achiev. Being you cannot possibly build 100 flame rams every night, more likely you could do like 20 max, it would take you 3.5 straight years to do this.

It is a lie if someone says they are trying to get the achieve

The difference between the person trying to get an achievement and the blatant siege griefer is often where they place this siege. Randomly all over the map? Likely an achievement guy. On top of every .. single …. npc in a keep or tower? Siege griefer.

This guy was doing it at a camp, he was honestly working on the achievement, which like I said is just crazy…Actively working on any achievement in WvW is just crazy lol.

lordkrall.7241:

urzen.7096:

This isn’t war, this is a game. Games have rules. Breaking the rules requires punishment.

So.. where are the rules that forbids spying?

“While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.”
-rules of conduct
if spying isn’t match manipulation I don’t know what is

Darek.1836:

“While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.”
-rules of conduct
if spying isn’t match manipulation I don’t know what is

That is however referring specifically to PvP, not WvW. And even if it were, it is in not way “match manipulation” since they do not actively make sure one server win.

Because that’s like saying scouting is as well siege capping or griefing otherwise is

The game was designed with you not being able to communicate or see the enemy troop movements.

That to me says spying is just another tactic kids use to try to get ahead when they are bad players. If you really need to cheat to try to win in WvW, I weep for you and your ego.

Spying also invalidates the point of scouting classes, and just really ruins the fun element of surprise that WvW PvP brings. It’s the reason DAoC was so successful, and the reason WvW has become a sleeper hit feature for GW2. The element of surprise in WvW will always out do any feeling of formulaic arena combat for me, and I have years of experience playing both types of PvP to back that up.

If you want to play without an element of surprise and where everything is given to you, go play sPvP.

lordkrall.7241:

Darek.1836:

“While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.”
-rules of conduct
if spying isn’t match manipulation I don’t know what is

That is however referring specifically to PvP, not WvW. And even if it were, it is in not way “match manipulation” since they do not actively make sure one server win.

Are you saying matches aren’t altered? Then the tactic wouldn’t be an issue.
I also missed where it said “Structured Pvp”, from what I can see it says “PvP”. WvW is PvP, no?
Dont distort the rules to serve your views, they’re clear as day.

Darek.1836:

Are you saying matches aren’t altered? Then the tactic wouldn’t be an issue.
I also missed where it said “Structured Pvp”, from what I can see it says “PvP”. WvW is PvP, no?
Dont distort the rules to serve your views, they’re clear as day.

So, a single spy on a server can make sure the whole server fails?
I believe you are misunderstanding what match manipulation actually is.
Match manipulation is when one side is actively giving up in order to help the other side advance.
Having spies does not do this.

Yet the team with 1 leecher can still win, but he is still banned regardless. You can argue all you want that spies don’t do “enough” to consider it manipulation. Perhaps I need to hack for a minimum of 20 hours to consider it “enough”? Its cheating and it’s altering the rankings regardless of how much the person does it, and the rules of conduct clearly state that. I’m also surprised ANYONE would defend this tactic when confronted with evidence it’s against the rules.

You should understand this is not Spvp, rankings are NOT decided by win or lose, they’re decided on how well you do. This means that any change AT ALL in the score is ranking manipulation.

Darek.1836:

Yet the team with 1 leecher can still win, but he is still banned regardless. You can argue all you want that spies don’t do “enough” to consider it manipulation. Perhaps I need to hack for a minimum of 20 hours to consider it “enough”? Its cheating and it’s altering the rankings regardless of how much the person does it, and the rules of conduct clearly state that. I’m also surprised ANYONE would defend this tactic when confronted with evidence it’s against the rules.

So.. where are all these people that have been banned for spying?
There is nothing in those rules that could even be remotely read as spying.

So.. where are all these people that have been banned for spying?
There is nothing in those rules that could even be remotely read as spying.What about people spying on TS? Or people using server specific forums to spy?
How would they ban those? Since quite clearly they are spying, but not doing it in-game and can therefore not be banned for it, right?

All spies and saboteurs should be shot on sight.

lordkrall.7241:

Darek.1836:

Yet the team with 1 leecher can still win, but he is still banned regardless. You can argue all you want that spies don’t do “enough” to consider it manipulation. Perhaps I need to hack for a minimum of 20 hours to consider it “enough”? Its cheating and it’s altering the rankings regardless of how much the person does it, and the rules of conduct clearly state that. I’m also surprised ANYONE would defend this tactic when confronted with evidence it’s against the rules.

So.. where are all these people that have been banned for spying?
There is nothing in those rules that could even be remotely read as spying.

So.. where are all these people that have been banned for spying?
There is nothing in those rules that could even be remotely read as spying.What about people spying on TS? Or people using server specific forums to spy?
How would they ban those? Since quite clearly they are spying, but not doing it in-game and can therefore not be banned for it, right?

Lordkrall are you a spy? You sure are getting mad about this. It is starting to sound like you condone this behavior.

Personally I think the palyers should have control of this and anyone caught spying gets the stocks at spawn in the BL and everyone gets to throw rotten fruit at them just before their account is erased.

Spying in TS and forums cannot be banned and I won’t dispute that. Administrators are in control of those and should take precautions on their own merit, as that’s outside of Anets influence.
I believe the reason ANet doesn’t ban spies is because the people I charge of giving bans were never told exactly what they should do about it. Hopefully Devon will resolve it with them.

Must be Feni the Troll day.

Ruprect.7260:

Lordkrall are you a spy? You sure are getting mad about this. It is starting to sound like you condone this behavior.

Personally I think the palyers should have control of this and anyone caught spying gets the stocks at spawn in the BL and everyone gets to throw rotten fruit at them just before their account is erased.

No I am not a spy. I am however fully aware that it is a very valid tactic and I accept that it will be used both by my and the enemies sides.
WvW is supposed to be a war after all, in wars there are spies.

Going by the logic that spying should be bannable would also require scouting to be bannable since they are doing more or less the same thing, but without having access to the chat and following the zerg instead of reading where it is.

Here’s what you’re missing.
If there was a way to counter spies on your own server I think I’d be fine with it, but ATM they cant die because you can’t attack them, and they can’t be forced to leave. It’s not hard to understand at all and I’m wondering if you even have an argument anymore.

Ethical question of the thread:

Just because something CAN be done by the opponent does it mean you SHOULD do it also?

Darek.1836:

Here’s what you’re missing.
If there was a way to counter spies on your own server I think I’d be fine with it, but ATM they cant die because you can’t attack them, and they can’t be forced to leave. It’s not hard to understand at all and I’m wondering if you even have an argument anymore.

There are ways to counter them.
A rather good way is to not shout out in map-chat where you are going with your zerg for one (many leaders tends to use the /say channel for that.)

Sure the spy can still see the tag, but it is quite easy to confuse them by running back and forth a bit and taking weird ways to the goal, and a scout can still get the very same information by simply following the zerg.
Do you think we should ban scouts as well?

lordkrall.7241:

Ruprect.7260:

Lordkrall are you a spy? You sure are getting mad about this. It is starting to sound like you condone this behavior.

Personally I think the palyers should have control of this and anyone caught spying gets the stocks at spawn in the BL and everyone gets to throw rotten fruit at them just before their account is erased.

No I am not a spy. I am however fully aware that it is a very valid tactic and I accept that it will be used both by my and the enemies sides.
WvW is supposed to be a war after all, in wars there are spies.

Going by the logic that spying should be bannable would also require scouting to be bannable since they are doing more or less the same thing, but without having access to the chat and following the zerg instead of reading where it is.

I actually could care less about spies. When we know we have one we start putting false info into chat anyway as we are mostly all on mumble.

Saboteurs on the other hand should be put in the stocks IRL and then banned

Ruprect.7260:

I actually could care less about spies. When we know we have one we start putting false info into chat anyway as we are mostly all on mumble.

Saboteurs on the other hand should be put in the stocks IRL and then banned

That I fully agree with. Saboteurs is a completely different thing for spies though, and I would never argue that sabotage should be allowed.