Guild Wars 2

Virtute.8251:

yanniell.1236:

DevonCarver.5370:

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

This is just stupid and narrow minded. There’s a lot of ways to make WvW more fair and balanced. Players have been pointed ways to do that since forever.

Yeah. Inappropriate, untenable, nonprofitable, irrelevant ways… since forever, or at least since Beta.

That quote is one of the truest and most insightful things that Devon has ever said about WvW, and he deserves a bonus check for having the nerve to click “Reply” on it.

No.

The only thing that makes sense on what he said, is that there’s servers with more people. And there’s ways to solve that, as pointed out by a lot of players, in a lot of opportunities.

The organization argument is just non-sense. People know who is gonna win in the first day not because the winner-to-be is the most organized server, but it’s because it’s the server with the most coverage. When the coverage is balanced, like in T1, we can never say for sure who is gonna come out on top.

To be fair, organization should play a important role in the outcome of the match, but it’s hard to be organized when you’re outnumbered 3 to 1, to say the least, and getting running over by 50 men blob all the time, and, at the same time, there’s no need to be organized when you’re the one with the 50 men blob running over small groups of people and PVDing 24/7.

Anyway, i’ll repeat, there’s ways to solve the problem and make WvW more fair and balanced. I’m not saying it can be the fairest and most balanced thing in the world, all i’m saying is that it can, and must be, improved. A lot.

PS: english is not my mother language, nevermindmy spelling.

Yea that’s nice and all but I see you are on JQ which means you are in one of the most balanced tiers. Do you understand how not fun wvw can be when each time you log in you are severly outmatched? Good fights are very rare, and there is little point to strategy since you dont have people or coverage to hold anything. All you can do is hope to find a window of time and a place on some map where your group of 5 won’t get steamrolled by 30.

Its not about trying or fairness or any of that other garbage, its just not that enjoyable, and its far from lucrative.

This creates a downward spiral of people not logging in or leaving their server.

yanniell.1236:

Virtute.8251:

yanniell.1236:

DevonCarver.5370:

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

This is just stupid and narrow minded. There’s a lot of ways to make WvW more fair and balanced. Players have been pointed ways to do that since forever.

Yeah. Inappropriate, untenable, nonprofitable, irrelevant ways… since forever, or at least since Beta.

That quote is one of the truest and most insightful things that Devon has ever said about WvW, and he deserves a bonus check for having the nerve to click “Reply” on it.

No.

Yes.

yanniell.1236:

The only thing that makes sense on what he said, is that there’s servers with more people. And there’s ways to solve that

Yes, I know: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Devs-Please-Merge-NA-Tier-3-8-into-Tier-1-2/

yanniell.1236:

as pointed out by a lot of players, in a lot of opportunities.

No. Nearly all of the player suggestions have been terrible.

yanniell.1236:

The organization argument is just non-sense.

Only for people who don’t understand or work well with people, thus do not understand organization and should not expect to succeed in an MMO game. The winners are defeating them in this factor.

yanniell.1236:

People know who is gonna win in the first day not because the winner-to-be is the most organized server

You’ve just defeated your opening argument.

yanniell.1236:

but it’s because it’s the server with the most coverage.

Thanks to their superior organizational skills.

yanniell.1236:

When the coverage is balanced, like in T1, we can never say for sure who is gonna come out on top.

Tacit.

yanniell.1236:

To be fair, organization should play a important role in the outcome of the match

It does.

yanniell.1236:

but it’s hard to be organized

Yes, it is.

yanniell.1236:

when you’re outnumbered 3 to 1

Hence Glicko, and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Devs-Please-Merge-NA-Tier-3-8-into-Tier-1-2/

Stone.6751:

<snipped> its just not that enjoyable, and its far from lucrative. This creates a downward spiral of people not logging in or leaving their server.

Interesting. You provide your own justification and illuminate the path.

Go into the light, Carol Anne!

Or are you befuddled by a desire for simultaneous consumption of confection and topping?

Don’t get me wrong, I left a T1 server for a mid-tier server. Im still out there fighting even when no one else is. I’m only pointing out what I observe in player thought and behavior. Discredit and attack if you so desire, it doesn’t change my point.

Look, the only reason it’s so bad right now is that they keep doing these seasons. The season 1 announcement broke 6 server’s populations in the lead up to the first season.

The aftermath, saw 3 more destruct and the dust was still clearing when this one was announced.

There’s already one server on the chopping block for post-season exodus; and there is a giant question mark about another (not naming names to prevent thread closure, but you know who I am talking about) that entered the season fighting about 3 tiers below it’s weight class.

The worst drag on the WvW game-mode right now is the naked cycnicism being displayed by the development team in implementing these leagues that encourage the worst sorts of behavior in the name of gem sales. The deliberate pillaging and politicking as servers stack or de-stack based upon their predicted league placement or predicted ranking in that league.

We’re treated to a #1 server that screams in every forum related to the game that they are some sort of underdog wonderkind.
We’re treated to servers falling apart due to perceived tanking or stacking. It’s taking away the simple enjoyment of things for what they are.

yanniell.1236:

Blah…blah.

DevonCarver.5370:

Blah

Blah

yanniell.1236:

Blah…blah.

yanniell.1236:

And blah.

Bleh!

tl;dr
Ignoratio Elenchi
The kitchen sink offers a more substantial argument.

Shonie.5297:

For those complaining about the matchups for the season (especially silver league)… what would be better?

No leagues, like I said before its forcing people into playing a competititor. How is that desirable?

Devon’s post about wvw being inherently unfair is fine, I get that its unbalanced and can live with it under normal circumstances where winning and losing doesn’t matter.

Where its not cool is where you then place rewards on winning in a system admittedly unfair. It makes little sense other than to create a lot of hard feelings in the community.

I don’t mind it so much for the actual reward since its not that great, but its more about the principle of setting up that kind of system knowing its unfair. Kind of a kitten thing to do to people.

Stone.6751:

I don’t mind it so much for the actual reward since its not that great, but its more about the principle of setting up that kind of system knowing its unfair. Kind of a kitten thing to do to people.

Well said.

Although, I’d build on your suggestion by questioning if “they” actually are possessed of the insight necessary to know better.

Presuming rational behavior, it is not rational (in a civil society) to kitten people.

Chris.3290:

Look, the only reason it’s so bad right now is that they keep doing these seasons. The season 1 announcement broke 6 server’s populations in the lead up to the first season.

The aftermath, saw 3 more destruct and the dust was still clearing when this one was announced.

There’s already one server on the chopping block for post-season exodus; and there is a giant question mark about another (not naming names to prevent thread closure, but you know who I am talking about) that entered the season fighting about 3 tiers below it’s weight class.

The worst drag on the WvW game-mode right now is the naked cycnicism being displayed by the development team in implementing these leagues that encourage the worst sorts of behavior in the name of gem sales. The deliberate pillaging and politicking as servers stack or de-stack based upon their predicted league placement or predicted ranking in that league.

We’re treated to a #1 server that screams in every forum related to the game that they are some sort of underdog wonderkind.
We’re treated to servers falling apart due to perceived tanking or stacking. It’s taking away the simple enjoyment of things for what they are.

Absolutely.

The amount of turmoil caused by Leagues (and Seasons) isn’t worth it. If their intention was to compel more players to participate WvW, then they could’ve just implemented [a diluted form of] WvW Tickets as part of the normal weekly rewards.

Virtute.8251:

(…)

The organization argument is just non-sense.

Only for people who don’t understand or work well with people, thus do not understand organization and should not expect to succeed in an MMO game. The winners are defeating them in this factor.
(…)

I think you guys’ understanding of organization is not the same.

Virtute seems to think an organized server is one that manages to recruit the most complete coverage. This would be organization at a high level and trumps possible deficiencies at the lower levels of organization.

Yanniell’s understanding is at a smaller scale, like guild level organization. How well your guild is organized, how well it is run, how well it fights has a big impact on the time zone they compete in. But they typically cannot overcome a gap in coverage. Conversely, an unorganized guild that gets overrun all the time may contribute to a ppt deficit in their time slot, but as long as this isn’t happening 24/7 on the server, such deficits can be overcome. That’s why Yanniell thinks is important, but not dominant in this argument.

You both agree that coverage trumps all.

Forcefully reshuffling all tiers, as Virtute suggests, is like not going help much.
a) the woe and cries of their women, when the men are sent off of their home server to fight in some foreign war…
b) people will just transfer around again
c) and most importantly, it completely leaves out the 24/7 coverage aspect, which is what’s breaking WvW scoring.

Until ANet gets rid of 24/7 scoring in favor of 4 or 6 hour scoring time blocks, removes scoring completely, or continually balances servers by force across all time zones, this will stay broken.

Mattargul.9235:

Until ANet gets rid of 24/7 scoring in favor of 4 or 6 hour scoring time blocks, removes scoring completely, or continually balances servers by force across all time zones, this will stay broken.

Nah, we already have edge of the mists for 4-hour wvw blocks.

The issue I have with the leagues, is that a server that can’t compete with TC is going to place above them in the standings due to a bad scoring system. gg ANet

There are so many quick, easy, and simple things to even things out that requires very little effort on their part, so I don’t exactly know why they just don’t go ahead and do it.

Despite what people say or claim, players are greedy in a nutshell, some or many will flood to whatever server they can for the win. Easiest way to stop this, lock down the servers, then announce the season. Now that transfer costs are hopefully where they’ll remain, next season lock the servers down, then announce the tournament.

If they don’t want to do that, do it this way. Create 3 separate matches each week based on time slots: 12am-8am, 8am-4pm, 4pm-12am. Each of those time slots have separate individual scores. Winning that time slot awards you one point; win all 3, you get 3 points. This way coverage no longer matters. Those groups that transfer overseas just to run a muck no longer affect the other time slots. Sure they’ll win whatever one they are in, but as far as the other 2, its open season. The server with the most points at the end of the season wins, simple.

If Anet decides to take that route, as a guild or player, good luck trying to figure out what server will win each time slot given the numbers are probably going to be even. Gone are the days are the attempts to stack on the winning server. I much prefer this route.

zortek.9607:

Design decisions (like actions) have consequences. There is virtue in letting a disaster play out. I am opposed to fixing the broken system — such would be knee-jerk or reactionary.

Rolling fixes are all too often the result of poor planning, inadequate frontloading, or immature simulation — any of which is a direct reflection of poor leadership, or more likely, bad management. I can’t stand it when simple-minded decision-makers lurch about after a decision.

• We take to the field of opportunity — not the field of dreams.
• We fight with the army we have — not the army we want.

Rather than lock in failure, I think it is much healthier and productive to accept the real circumstances into which we have been thrust than to obsess over ideals.

Whether I take to field with 1, 10, or 100, I want those around me to trust that I will deliver my best possible performance. And regardless of the standings or metrics, I want the amazing talent that I fight with and against will deliver their best possible performance. Win or lose, I want to take to field with friends and make the kind of legendary memories that will survive well after this venue has gone to the bit bucket.

Choices were made… those choices will lead to specific outcomes.

I can not blame ANet or a server or another individual for my poor performance. In the end, I accept personal responsibility for my fun. I own it and if it is unsatisfying… I understand that I chose to accept the challenge.

If you don’t like or can’t handle the challenge, find your fun elsewhere.

Years from now, your friends won’t care if you won or lost on a particular server in a particular event… THE STORY will be that you were there — and how great (or miserable) it was!

And tomorrow, there will be a new story to commiserate…

20 yeas from now

Person 1 “Remember season 2 back in the good old WvW2 days?”

Person 2 “Yeah. That was the one where, regardless of how much effort your side put in, or how skilled they were, or even if they were smart enough to stack and cover all times zones, lesser servers came out ahead because Anet employed a faulty tournament system.”

Person 1 “Yeah….”

This is a story we should want?

There have been enough solution-threads for any and all unfair aspects of WvW. I think it’s safe to say Anet couldn’t care less about “fairness”. I understand Devon’s point of view: a serverwide 24/7 fight can never really be fair, because you can indeed never truly control the amount of people that participate on each side.

What annoys me about this season/league format is that it actually widens the population gap between servers, because of transfers by people in search of better rewards.
Can we blame those players? Not really, if the game is won with mass numbers, gathering in mass numbers can be expected when people want to win. But this leaves a larger part of the servers with a smaller WvW community, prone to getting stomped by any of the newly created, or already established “megaservers”.

Are the fights less fun? No, not really. Although we’re getting stomped in the PPT-wars, the actual groupfights are pretty evened out, as long as you run when a megablob arrives and only engage the smaller (guild)groups.
But they’re not more fun either, so the whole season adds nothing. All it does is nibble away at mid-tier and low-tier communities when people run off chasing shiny rewards.

Atrophied.8725:

The issue I have with the leagues, is that a server that can’t compete with TC is going to place above them in the standings due to a bad scoring system. gg ANet

This from the server that took 3rd by being carried by another server?

I think the blood price of every other week with BG and TC makes it work out as even Stevens.

The true highway robbery is that TC is going to take 4th behind SoS and JQ; two servers that they could beat every encounter.

Chris.3290:

Atrophied.8725:

The issue I have with the leagues, is that a server that can’t compete with TC is going to place above them in the standings due to a bad scoring system. gg ANet

This from the server that took 3rd by being carried by another server?

I think the blood price of every other week with BG and TC makes it work out as even Stevens.

The true highway robbery is that TC is going to take 4th behind SoS and JQ; two servers that they could beat every encounter.

I don’t see TC finishing 4th…

There are so many things to address before leagues were supposed to happen.

We had the season 1 and have found out the many shortcomings. Yet nothing was addressed before season 2 except for a change in scoring …. I’m confused, is this how we fix problems now.

We need to address population imbalances first and foremost. We need to address in matchup dynamics. There should be a reason for the one with outmanned to come out and fight (unlike now). We need to cut-off mass transfers prior to seasons.

Chris.3290:

The true highway robbery is that TC is going to take 4th behind SoS and JQ; two servers that they could beat every encounter.

SoS probably true, but for JQ, now you’re just trolling. You’ve lost to JQ for the past two months, and the only reason last week you came out ahead is due to BG having a hard focus on JQ (which they should since JQ came in as the highest server). In reality TC would probably lose more matchups to JQ than the other way around.