Guild Wars 2

This just in from WvW:
Warriors trait Leg Specialist and getting on AC to lock down enemy forces for ever.
Better yet: have a few arrow carts and coordinate AC #2.

Intended? I think not.

Did this just in? I thought it was known since the patch that altered engi’s traits/stats interacting with turrets or w/e that was.

Just in here so everyone can (ab)use it and ANet has to do something about it.

Wow, I didn’t know about this.

*Resets to +10 on tactics, and buys 150 ac’s

Pretty sure we’ve held SM with no walls for 6 hrs on Mag vs TC simply because we had 20 warriors with traits on ACs.

Sorry for the semi rant but this is getting old. There is always going to be something a different class has that seems OP! Why cry about it? I think getting 5+ necros together and putting all their marks down is OP, it makes necros awesome for holding choke points, anet should take out marks because no other class can do it like they can…As for the Arrow Cart your saying that its broken because you can’t stand in it and just take the damage? A 1 second immobilize is game breaking? I think not, you can easily realize whats happening and move out of the area heal up and try again. Or instead of trying to PvDoor something build counter siege and take out threats prier to banging your head against the door.

While I think its very helpful while trying to defend a objective, I would take a small organized group over a arrow cart traited for a 1 second immobilize any day. IMO we should nerf team work, thats the real issue here.

Uh, it’s pretty broken because you get one second immobilizes over and over again when you’re inside arrow cart range, and it’s kind of hard to get out when you keep getting hit. We’ve wiped pretty organized and larger groups with it pretty easily.

Zikory.6871:

Sorry for the semi rant but this is getting old. There is always going to be something a different class has that seems OP! Why cry about it?

Because unlike other supposedly OP things, this is actually pretty OP.

Omg just tried it.

So kittening broken haha

I think this might actually be more broken than Confusion.

Zikory.6871:

Sorry for the semi rant but this is getting old. There is always going to be something a different class has that seems OP! Why cry about it? I think getting 5+ necros together and putting all their marks down is OP, it makes necros awesome for holding choke points, anet should take out marks because no other class can do it like they can…As for the Arrow Cart your saying that its broken because you can’t stand in it and just take the damage? A 1 second immobilize is game breaking? I think not, you can easily realize whats happening and move out of the area heal up and try again. Or instead of trying to PvDoor something build counter siege and take out threats prier to banging your head against the door.

While I think its very helpful while trying to defend a objective, I would take a small organized group over a arrow cart traited for a 1 second immobilize any day. IMO we should nerf team work, thats the real issue here.

Are you kidding me? 5 AC’s, 5 Warriors, near-perma Immobilize and you don’t see an issue?

This is obviously broken and if you can’t see it then you have little to no WvW experience.

I guess that’s why I saw 5 ac circles inside the tower from only one offensive a.cart at the gate. He probably was a warrior.

Nothing to see here folks, move along!

Leave your arrow carts at the door and continue on your way

Apparently the only way Wars can be op is operating siege. It’s the promised pvp buff for wars. Working as intended, move along.

Intigo.1653:

I think this might actually be more broken than Confusion.

Are you kidding me? 5 AC’s, 5 Warriors, near-perma Immobilize and you don’t see an issue?

This is obviously broken and if you can’t see it then you have little to no WvW experience.

I don’t see an issue, If your playing with out a way to break the Immobilize then thats poor planing on your part. Personally I would rather play the game a try to find a counter to the issue then cry on the forums till anet changes it.

To comment on someones WvW experience just because they don’t agree with you is quite silly. A lot of anets nerfs are based off the player base crying that something is over powered or broken when in reality its the lack of peoples ability to adapt. In this discussion on arrow carts, if you get hit by a arrow cart and get Immobilized, use your stun break to get out, dodge and your good. Now if you feel the need to go back in and get immobilized to death…well maybe you should rethink how your attacking the gate.

It is not ‘over and over again’. The AC #2 has a CD of 9 seconds, so it’s not like you’re constantly stunned.

Tallis.5607:

It is not ‘over and over again’. The AC #2 has a CD of 9 seconds, so it’s not like you’re constantly stunned.

It is over and over again. The cripple is a pulse that applies about 5 times meaning 5 seconds of immobilize with a 50 person cap. Any more than one cart (and coordination between the two) is a permanent 50 man immobilize.

You’re right, arrow carts only hit you once when you stand in the red circle.

Zikory.6871:

Intigo.1653:

I think this might actually be more broken than Confusion.

Are you kidding me? 5 AC’s, 5 Warriors, near-perma Immobilize and you don’t see an issue?

This is obviously broken and if you can’t see it then you have little to no WvW experience.

I don’t see an issue, If your playing with out a way to break the Immobilize then thats poor planing on your part. Personally I would rather play the game a try to find a counter to the issue then cry on the forums till anet changes it.

To comment on someones WvW experience just because they don’t agree with you is quite silly. A lot of anets nerfs are based off the player base crying that something is over powered or broken when in reality its the lack of peoples ability to adapt. In this discussion on arrow carts, if you get hit by a arrow cart and get Immobilized, use your stun break to get out, dodge and your good. Now if you feel the need to go back in and get immobilized to death…well maybe you should rethink how your attacking the gate.

For one, stun breaks don’t remove immobilize(please learn how the game works before engaging in arguments about it!). Secondly, the arrow cart hits more then one time. Third, adding more then one AC into the equation is when it gets into ‘lockdown’ mode, people only have so many condition removals.

dank.3680:

For one, stun breaks don’t remove immobilize(please learn how the game works before engaging in arguments about it!). Secondly, the arrow cart hits more then one time. Third, adding more then one AC into the equation is when it gets into ‘lockdown’ mode, people only have so many condition removals.

So using condition removal on immobilize would essentially be “breaking the stun” (Please think before you try to calling out some out on one) 2nd point: You are correct but you can dodge it, if you don’t time it well and get stuck oh well it happens to the best of us. 3rd point: That may be true but now your requiring for there to be more then 1 warrior, while also traited for Leg Specialist, also having the know how that he can do this and not being preoccupied, and also know that there is a arrow cart for him to be on. If your going to make the argument that in an organized group using voip, this is common for them to use these tactics (along with others) to lock down areas and defend objectives. If they are that organized then your probably going to get stomped anyways. If its two well organized groups fighting both sides will have the know how to counter this issue in game. This is only going to effect people that don’t understand whats gong on or inexperienced Commanders.

Stability and dodge rolls?

Invisible mesmer portal past choke?

kerona.3465:

Stability and dodge rolls?

Invisible mesmer portal past choke?

Immobilize goes through stability because it’s a condition. The pulsing nature makes condition removal impractical because the reapplication is a second or less.

It’s definitely not unbeatable, but determining what’s imbalanced in this game isn’t about unbeatable, just cost benefit.

Nice suggestions, but those are stating the oblivious honestly.
You can’t seriously be suggesting accepting a blatant game error, by saying dodge, stability, condi removal? Facts about stability, condi removal and the pulsing nature of the AC aoe effect aside: Just lol…
This would be like accepting a design flaw like culling and saying “yeah, just be careful in wvw and learn to avoid the invisible zerg” or like: “oh, your enemy engi has exploited into 5 minutes of stability? nvm, just don’t try to cc him.”

Why learn to deal with a non intended use of game mechanics when fixing it would be the correct way to go?
Oh, you guys.

Zikory.6871:

dank.3680:

For one, stun breaks don’t remove immobilize(please learn how the game works before engaging in arguments about it!). Secondly, the arrow cart hits more then one time. Third, adding more then one AC into the equation is when it gets into ‘lockdown’ mode, people only have so many condition removals.

So using condition removal on immobilize would essentially be “breaking the stun”.

Immobilize isn’t a stun, and a condition removal isn’t a stun breaker, so no. Using the right terms when discussion game mechanics is recommended.

Well… this explains a few things that have happened to me recently.

Zikory.6871:

Sorry for the semi rant but this is getting old. There is always going to be something a different class has that seems OP! Why cry about it? I think getting 5+ necros together and putting all their marks down is OP, it makes necros awesome for holding choke points, anet should take out marks because no other class can do it like they can…As for the Arrow Cart your saying that its broken because you can’t stand in it and just take the damage? A 1 second immobilize is game breaking? I think not, you can easily realize whats happening and move out of the area heal up and try again. Or instead of trying to PvDoor something build counter siege and take out threats prier to banging your head against the door.

While I think its very helpful while trying to defend a objective, I would take a small organized group over a arrow cart traited for a 1 second immobilize any day. IMO we should nerf team work, thats the real issue here.

You are so right. It’s no different then every other class trait that applies to siege….oh wait.

Orikx.9671:

Zikory.6871:

Sorry for the semi rant but this is getting old. There is always going to be something a different class has that seems OP! Why cry about it? I think getting 5+ necros together and putting all their marks down is OP, it makes necros awesome for holding choke points, anet should take out marks because no other class can do it like they can…As for the Arrow Cart your saying that its broken because you can’t stand in it and just take the damage? A 1 second immobilize is game breaking? I think not, you can easily realize whats happening and move out of the area heal up and try again. Or instead of trying to PvDoor something build counter siege and take out threats prier to banging your head against the door.

While I think its very helpful while trying to defend a objective, I would take a small organized group over a arrow cart traited for a 1 second immobilize any day. IMO we should nerf team work, thats the real issue here.

You are so right. It’s no different then every other class trait that applies to siege….oh wait.

There are other traits that work off of this, it’s just that leg specialist makes the best use of it.

Intended? Probably not, but maybe they did.

Broken? Certainly unbalanced, but I have a long list of more broken mechanics that I would like fixed before they worry about this.

Solution? More of a band-aid, just make sure you have some necros and mesmers with well of power and null field respectively if you are having trouble. If you encounter it, just avoid that area and use long range siege.

Sounds like a bug/oversight.

No other “on hit” trait works with siege weapons. Can’t imagine they made this one work differently on purpose.

Proumbro.1376:

Intended? Probably not, but maybe they did.

Broken? Certainly unbalanced, but I have a long list of more broken mechanics that I would like fixed before they worry about this.

Solution? More of a band-aid, just make sure you have some necros and mesmers with well of power and null field respectively if you are having trouble. If you encounter it, just avoid that area and use long range siege.

How many other player traits affect siege in an offensive capacity?

eldavo.6054:

How many other player traits affect siege in an offensive capacity?

Many, siege weapon skills are treated like any other skill.

Any Traits or Runes that extends condition duration extends the duration of the conditions your siege attacks generate, for example.

Slamz.5376:

Sounds like a bug/oversight.

No other “on hit” trait works with siege weapons. Can’t imagine they made this one work differently on purpose.

Actually all on hit traits work with siege weapons in regards to cripple/bleed chain effects. It happened in the same patch that changed something to do with engi’s conditions affecting something of theirs. This means that condition damage and duration also affect carts.

Did no other servers notice when their 2k condition guys were getting 150ish bleeds from carts?

Slamz.5376:

Sounds like a bug/oversight.

No other “on hit” trait works with siege weapons. Can’t imagine they made this one work differently on purpose.

Yeah, it’s gotta be a mistake.

How about you just run AoE retaliation and kill the Warriors?

Or kill the siege before going into a kill zone? There is always a counter.

While many of the other traits that deal with on-hit effects may be kinda nasty, this one really takes the cake. Zergs rely heavily on their mobility; it’s how they avoid getting AoE bombed and wiped. Here is a pulsing AoE immobilize that is excessively easy to coordinate (only needs 2 or 3 buddies in VoIP, doesn’t even need a full guild or actual group), has a huge range and affected area, that can literally hold down a full zerg and pin them helplessly in AoE damage and 5+ stacks of bleeds. Even if some people are able to avoid/dodge/cure themselves out of it, it’s still going to hold up maybe least half of that fighting force. With 2 people. And they can just continue to rain on them until they die. Superior siege would do it even better, and no, the answer isn’t “works as intended.”

Under no other circumstance am I aware of two people not only holding up a huge zerg, but being able to outright wipe them. It literally takes a minute for two people to set up two arrow carts and start firing.

NONE of the other traits can do that.

I don’t see an issue with it, take a group of anything cc wise and it’s OP. Warriors don’t have a whole lot going for them in large sieges (besides this and jumping off walls over and over with the falling trait on) so all it currently means is you have to take out the arrow carts before getting in arrow cart range… something most people try to do anyway.

Vv W.7821:

I don’t see an issue with it, take a group of anything cc wise and it’s OP. Warriors don’t have a whole lot going for them in large sieges (besides this and jumping off walls over and over with the falling trait on) so all it currently means is you have to take out the arrow carts before getting in arrow cart range… something most people try to do anyway.

No, taking anything isn’t as OP as two carts with warriors, because carts cap at 50 target limit and not 5. The pulsing nature means it’s a 100% uptime immobilize. Give me a scenario similar where you’re bringing two guys who are immobilizing 50 people with 100% uptime.

Anyone saying it isn’t unbeatable are entirely missing the point and don’t understand how to approach balance.

Maguuma has been using this for over a month now… it’s pretty OP, but takes a lot of planning to pull off.

I’d like to see if get nerfed, but not completely removed. I like having warriors as siege specialists instead of just front line troops. Conditions are a bonus, too.

I’ve gotten immobilized by that before, and a single condition removal skill followed by a dodge roll is enough to get out of it. I’m not saying a fix shouldn’t go in, but I don’t see why it should be removed either. Maybe add the typical aoe cap to the trait? I do however think it actually is part of the point that it can be prevented ahead of time, by any class.

And just for arguments sake it’s just bad style to ask the opposing viewpoint to find a second situation with the exact same issues. Five people with any form of fast recharging aoe cc are trouble if they can out play a larger group, in this case there’s just less play and more red circle dodging.

Vv W.7821:

And just for arguments sake it’s just bad style to ask the opposing viewpoint to find a second situation with the exact same issues. Five people with any form of fast recharging aoe cc are trouble if they can out play a larger group, in this case there’s just less play and more red circle dodging.

This isn’t true and you’re lying to yourself more to try and make it fit. 2 guys 100% immobilize on 50 people. Your 5 aren’t going to dent that because of cooldowns and aoe limits.

How about you just run AoE retaliation and kill the Warriors?

Retaliation doesn’t work on siege.

OK so the more I think about it, the more it appears to be overpowered..

but.. an interaction that leads to an advantage for defenders that’s especially effective against zergs…. isn’t this exactly the kind of balancing we’ve needed in WvW?

Sure, but it shouldn’t be in a random overpowered delivery vector.

Also, while few v. many mechanics are great, this is still like 5 vs. 200 perma immob roflololololololololololol.

E.g. bad solution to the “right” problem so to speak. Sidenote: problem may not exactly be right, but good enough for this thread.

Ya but in this extreme scenario of 5 holding down 200 indefinitely…. those 200 had to cram in a ball and go stand under the AoE to begin with… which sounds like a tactical failure on their part, whether this mechanic was in place or not.

Now the difference is they might actually pay for their overconfidence, rather than laugh it off thanks to the AoE cap.

I think you’re being picky about numbers. I don’t think the goal should be that 5 people can take on “200”, and even if it is, that’s not the most common use case here. As the RET guy pointed out, zerg v zerg is all about mobility. Put one or two warriors on arrow carts and suddenly one zerg has no mobility and they’re all dead. You can theorycraft about counters all you want, but I think you should experience it before making a judgment call on its brokenness.

eldavo.6054:

Proumbro.1376:

Intended? Probably not, but maybe they did.

Broken? Certainly unbalanced, but I have a long list of more broken mechanics that I would like fixed before they worry about this.

Solution? More of a band-aid, just make sure you have some necros and mesmers with well of power and null field respectively if you are having trouble. If you encounter it, just avoid that area and use long range siege.

How many other player traits affect siege in an offensive capacity?

I never said anything about other traits affecting siege, I am talking about the game in general. For example, my necro still cannot see endurance or conditions during Death Shroud. A simple fix that should be a no brainer, however, it still hasn’t been done.

And don’t even get started on the skill lag with large battles that ripple throughout time and space. Or a sigil exploit that works on keep doors. Or having to camp dead mesmers in a keep till they respawn. The list goes on of things that I would rather have fixed.

Player 1 – careful guys, they got warriors on acs up there.
Player 2 – the wall’s down! Charge!
Player 1 – should we continue to use our range seige to destroy theirs?
Player 2 – (in last words of dying agony) omg so OP! NERRRRRF!

Your satire rings less true considering the fact that some people in this thread, like myself, are Player 1, and still think this is broken. A for effort, I guess.

You shouldn’t be standing in arrow cart range.

Your own fault for doing that.

Yeah, how dare anyone approach a fortified structure without building an open field treb first to take out all of the siege

saiyr.3071:

Yeah, how dare anyone approach a fortified structure without building an open field treb first to take out all of the siege

You going to golam rush without taking out their oil or cannons also?