Guild Wars 2

First of all, this thread is not about whether or not downed state should be in the game. That’s a different matter for a different topic.

However, since downed state IS in the game, it would seem absolutely necessary to, at least, normalize them across classes. Right now downed states across classes are so ludicrously disparate that I can’t come across any reasonable justification for them. This isn’t just valid for WvW, but for sPvP as well. You can actually “tier” the downstates:

S tier: Elementalist.

The single greatest “offender” of downstate disparity. Not content with having no less than 2 invulnerable states while alive, Vapor Form adds a get out of jail free card. No damage. No risk. No nothing. Elementalist goes down, if they aren’t insta-gibbed they just turn to vapor and run back to their team/structure to revive. This allows a class with innately high AoE damage/range and mobility to become impossible to kill so long as they stay within a certain distance of their front line/structure. Best case scenario, if the Ele makes some gross mistake or is caught out alone, they can postpone certain death for a ridiculous amount of time comparatively to any other class, forcing at least one player away from the fight for the whole duration.

The worst part is that you can’t even burn CC them to stop them from running away. You just gotta follow them if you don’t want them reviving.

A Tier: Thief, Mesmer

Thief has no less than 2 ways to break targeting (and consequently executions). One of them allowing for displacement, which is very useful, and another allowing for temporary stealth. Between the two finishing a downed Thief can be quite time consuming, allowing them to buy a lot of time.

Mesmer only has one way to break targetting and executions: her clone. However, it’s quite a good one, which in the middle of a battle can often lead to additional erroneous executions, letting the Mesmer also buy quite a lot of time. On top of that Mesmer is one of the most dangerous targets while grounded due to her constant confusion spam and Phantasms, which also give her a good chance of a Rally in the middle of a fight, where some people will inevitably go low on health.

Essentially these two are very time consuming to kill, letting them buy a significant amount of time before you can finally end them. This can let them postpone their death long enough to secure a rally or for reinforcements to arrive.

B Tier: Warrior, Guardian, Engineer

Warrior can knock down a single target, and he can “rally”. However, unlike an Elementalist, he’ll take normal damage and CC, and if he doesn’t spec specifically into it AND get a kill while he’s alive, he’ll be killed at the end of it.

Guardian has an AoE knockdown, he can stop one “wave” of executions, but then is completely vulnerable.

Engineer have 2 ways to prevent executions, however I rarely get stopped more than once while executing them (and I know every little about them), which leads me to think that they’re not all that reliable. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here.

They can reliably stop one execution at least, and might have a trick up their sleeves, but really they’re just postponning the inevitable. They rarely survive once downed.

C Tier: Necromancer, Ranger

Necros have 1 fear, on a single target, after a couple of seconds of being downed, if they survive that long. They have no way to fight or recover unless their enemy is extremely weak.

Rangers have no way to stop an execution at all, unless someone just happens to stand near them and not executing them, for a very brief daze. Their only defence is against medium/low DPS, by reviving the pet to revive them after several seconds of being downed, assuming either can survive that long.

Essentially, being downed for these classes is the same as being dead unless the enemy simply ignores you. 0 chance of survival otherwise.

It seems ludicrous to have downed states be so ridiculously uneven, when downed state is, otherwise, a fairly “even” state. Everyone gets insta-killed by an execution. Everyone has, roughly, the same amount of health, everyone has bandage, and most classes attack 1 is, more or less, the same level of threat. It seems ridiculous then that different classes have so utterly different levels of viability in their downed states.

And don’t give me the “classes are different” malarkey. Squishier classes generally make up for it through things like damage, range, mobility, “get away potential”… etc. They don’t get downed inherently more than other classes, they just survive through different means.

Honestly, A-Net needs to draw the line of how much should a downstate survive, and then even it out across the board. Should downstates be able to survive an execution or not? If they should, then how much should they be able to survive or post pone their own demise?

Gaurdian downed state is a joke with the healing symbol. It’s way better than the ele downed state.

I do not think you can focus on just one factor of being downed and tier them, you also need to take into consideration damage output and rate of healing. While I agree some classes are certainly better then others, I do not think it is cut and dry as your tier’s suggest.

Ranger daze when used properly works as good as an interrupt, if not better than other classes as it can hit through stealth.

tier 1
ranger underwater downed + pet regen
mesmer underwater downed
tier 2
the rest

Folks only started complaining about the ele vapor form downed ability when it was changed from being unavailable for some time after down (like the engi n03. explode/knockback skill) to being instantly available on down.
Ironically before that the ele’s downed abilities were complained about as being one of the worst ones available in game because the other skills are useless.
So if they change it back to not instantly available everybody is happy again (to read the whining threads about the downed abilities being useless with no interrupt etc. available)?
Offtopic but simmilar ele’s were seen as easy snacks in wvw until the fotm d/d build got posted. That’s how things go, underpowered, getting tweaks and/or players finally finding out how to play the class, fotm, nerfd.

My only issue with the ele mist form is that it resets their health and conditions to where it was when they first got downed. I view this as a bug.

Swap Engineer and Ranger around in your list.

Engineer : #1 attack is a weak direct attack with a random condition linked with it. Condition being random and weak, you can’t rely on it.

The #2 cancel is THE worse downedstate #2 in the game. It’s a pull/knockdown. The question is : Who want to pull someone when they are downed? You want them as far from you as ou can. This is a really situational skill. I’m sure most engin would agree that when you are downed and attacking someone, most of the time you don’t want to use #2 just to be sure not to attract them to you.

I know it’s prolly there to combo with #3, but we never get to use #3.

Talking about it, #3 booty traps is a really really strong ability. Nothing to change here. But I never get to use it! You can’t survive long enought to cast it.

If I ever down someone and they down me at the same time, I’m sure to lose. Damage is too low, except on booty trap who is only melee range.

Ranger : the #2 is average. It’s an AoE Daze, but the range is very limited. The number 3 isn’t bad on land, tho it can be buggy.

But you can’t judge Ranger only by downed state skill. They keep their PET while downed. If you have a wolf, you can have a knockdown and a fear when you are downed.

I think Ranger are good in downed state, but a lot of people forget to use the pet. Some pets can hit for a large amount of damage.

Also, don’t forget the new Ranger Death turret underwater. Ranger are just unkillable underwater. They can use their pet to heal them for more hp then two players can deal damage. Add to this that you can’t Execute people underwater.

You’re underrating the Necromancer downedstate in my opinion. Being able to spam attack and recover HP while downed has saved me so many times in both PvE and sPvP, and when that AoE condition attack comes up it can do a reasonable amount of damage to a number of enemies. In addition if you’re AoEing conditions to everyone, you have a reasonable chance of getting rallied. I can’t comment much on WvW usage.

The real reason elementalist is S tier is because you recover 50% of your downed state health as well as being a nuisance, so they either have to get the stomp, stomp after they forced you to burn your mist, or kill you twice over.

If you change the gate mechanics to NOT let you in while in downed state, no matter if Vengeance, Vapor, ..

I can see Eles needing vapor out in open combat, but the advantage [and abuse] i’ve seen from Eles defending towers and keeps, and ALWAYS being able to get back in and slowly rally themselves out of downed state in the safety of the tower/keep… no other class has that…

Then, too, Quickness will always allow you to stomp an enemy before any of these abilities become available….

Another chapter of “Rangers need a lot of Love”

Let’s face it, everyone that plays GW for long time (I play both from the start) was surprised by the way professions have been designed.

Ii’s a big mess in terms of balance between professions.

GW 1 or GW2 I ‘love them since 1st day
Mighty Ice Arrow – Ranger lev 80
Os Lusitanos [PT] – Portugal
SFR Community

They need to decrease the health of the downed state.

The amount of health you get is redunk.

The only problem I have with the ele downstate is that I can’t even quickness stomp them even if I am right next to them when they go down.

I would easily rate engi the worst of the four classes I have played a significant amount of time in WvW (engi, guardian, thief, ele). Unlike the necro and ranger #2 skills, which are also pretty terrible and do nothing to stop stealth stomps or multiple stompers, the engi #2 skill does nothing to delay a stomp and assures the stomper is positioned to try again while the #3 skill is still unavailable. To add insult to injury, the engi trait for the downed state drops something you can’t even kittening use….

This is one the main reasons I no longer play my engi at all in WvW, even though it can be a challenging and rewarding class to play that is among the best for sieges.

If it were my choice, all classes would have the same downed skills, and the chance to rally would be as good as winning a free pinball game (i.e. almost none).

Keep in mind, this isn’t a “Class A is OP, Class B is UP” thread. My point is that there is a massive disparity between what the difference classes can do while downed, which is ridiculous given that everything else about downed state is similar. The game seems a bit schizophrenic about where it wants downed state to be, from “easy to recover from” to “you’re basically dead”.

All I want is for A-Net to decide WHERE they want downed state to be and even it out between the classes. Whether that’s at high or low survivability, it should be fairly even among the classes.

Elementalist downed is overpowered around keeps for sure. Not a problem elsewhere, you can just chase them down and its a sure thing, unlike other classes which can often pull out another trick or two.

Its unbalanced but they arent a tier above thieves and mesmers. Also keep in mind that ele’s had one of the worst states until a month ago, so if you are campaigning for change, dont be disgruntled when it happens.

Drew.1865:

Gaurdian downed state is a joke with the healing symbol. It’s way better than the ele downed state.

Guardian downed state 3 is very good. Elementalist downed state 3 is very bad. However a guardian rarely makes it to downed state three because they are stationary, visibile, and extremely vulnerable to a stability stomp.

I’d move rangers up with guardians, and engineers and give warriors their own teir above them. The daze, pet fear, and pet heal are pretty good. They are definitely better off than necromancers.

I’d put thief, elem, and mesmer in the same teir for an open field fight with no portal to run through. My list is:

1. elem, thief, mesmer
2. warrior
3. guardian, engineer, ranger
4. necromancer

Open field only.

On necro I need a /suicide button to just get it over with. On thief I feel like Im trolling people.

The ability to push stomps out 5+ seconds combined with the batkitten rally system is just too much.

Acelerion.6820:

On necro I need a /suicide button to just get it over with. On thief I feel like Im trolling people.

The ability to push stomps out 5+ seconds combined with the batkitten rally system is just too much.

Yes, exactly. The disparity is the TIME it takes to successfully stomp someone and this has a huge impact on group fights.

My mains are Necro and Engineer, both classe that have pretty bad downed state.

But I gotta say I prefer my necromancer downed state. Not sure why, both are about the same level. Both will die really fast if someone focus on them (1 sec intterupt and it’s done).

But at least with my necro, if I was left unatended, I could dish a lot of damage. The #1 of necro is a rapidly firing vampiric attack. And you can boost it for 50% with traits. If I survive long enought, I can cas my #3 and do a large amount of damage.

With my engineer, My #1 hit liek a wet noodle. When I get hit for 1.5k from mesmer #1, while I hit for 500 damage on mine, it’s sad. Random condition d’ont make up for it. #3 is equal to necro, tho less damaging but at least knock people down. And our downed state skill traits is really bad. Does anyone really use the flamethrower we drop?Why pick up a weapon to do less damage.

Overall, but are fairly weak downed state if you compare to top tier like Elem, thief and mesmer, 3 class that are in the top META team of tPvP.

I agree. Downed state skills should be normalized. Some classes have an enormous advantage over others. My ranger is minced meat when downed, my Elementalist aint, and my thief can move to allies, which doesnt always work but its better than the intrepid pet rez on my ranger.

Oozo.7856:

I’d move rangers up with guardians, and engineers and give warriors their own teir above them. The daze, pet fear, and pet heal are pretty good. They are definitely better off than necromancers.

I’d put thief, elem, and mesmer in the same teir for an open field fight with no portal to run through. My list is:

1. elem, thief, mesmer
2. warrior
3. guardian, engineer, ranger
4. necromancer

Open field only.

I’m at end of food chain

Drew.1865:

Gaurdian downed state is a joke with the healing symbol. It’s way better than the ele downed state.

I disagree, if you wait around long enough for their healing symbol to come up then they deserve to res, you have ample time to stake them several times before the symbol is available.

I’m not implying the ele downed state is OP or rediculous, although it would be nice if they could not enter keeps towers while using their downed mist form.

Eng has one of the worst downed state in the game…

Auto attack does nearly no damage, the #2 is a pull… it will stop a single stomp, but do you ever want some one to closer to you when you’re downed??? #3 has a very long cooldown… to the point where it’s like… yea right i’ll be getting to use that… should be down with necro’s and rangers.

Necro is flat out the worst since it’s 3 ability does nothing to help revive or keep someone from stomping you.

Engineer 3 should be moved to Engineer 2.

Aberrant.6749:

Eng has one of the worst downed state in the game…

Auto attack does nearly no damage, the #2 is a pull… it will stop a single stomp, but do you ever want some one to closer to you when you’re downed??? #3 has a very long cooldown… to the point where it’s like… yea right i’ll be getting to use that… should be down with necro’s and rangers.

Well, usually the pull just counts as a disable. You’re toast after anyways.

But yeah, seems like Engineers have it even worse than I thought.

Warrior is eh, Vengeance isn’t available until I believe 5 seconds after being downed? And to finish someone is 3 seconds?

Our only way to stop the finish is our single target knockdown, so as soon as there is more then 1 player finishing you there is almost no point.

Also, throw rock is pitiful

EDIT: Sorry if times are incorrect, I’m not at home currently and don’t have the luxry to check in-game