Let’s make this a discussion about the current status of Retaliation. All opinions are welcomed.
Ever since an internal cooldown was added to lifesteal food, I’ve felt that Retaliation needed to be re-tweaked. Certain classes, weapon skills, and utilities get severely hammered by retaliation, and not always because it’s justified. I enjoy a mechanic that punishes rapid attacks…. but lets take a quick look at some of what I perceive to be issues.
A few good examples are:
- Engineer flamethrower auto attack. The flamethrower by design is aimed to promote close combat AoE damage. But if you hit 2 or more guardians (which can spec for perma-retaliation) you can very very quickly destroy yourself. Each auto hits for 10 strikes, that’s anywhere from 2000 – 4500 retaliation damage to yourself, from an auto attack on a SINGLE TARGET. 2 guards with ret up? 4000-9000 damage to yourself. Hit 3 guardians with ret? Oh you’re dead in one or 2 auto attacks.
- Engineer grenades. They are all multi hit aoe skills. I believe each grenade can hit a maximum of 5 people. Well if I throw a properly spec’d grenade barrage, which is 7 grenades, I can potentially take 35 strikes of retaliation against me, just from 1 skill. That’s between 7000 and 15,750 damage depending on the power of the target. That’s insane… I hurt myself for almost all of my HP with 1 skill.
- Mesmer GS auto. It hits multiple strikes, and also can hit 2 addition targets, resulting in 3-9 strikes of Retaliation against you in a VERY short window of time.
- Warrior off-hand Axe whirl. 15 strikes of ret from a single target. People used to use this when life-steal food had no ICD. It’s pretty silly to use it in most zerg situations now.
- Ranger Longbow 5 AoE barrage. 60 strikes of ret damage to yourself resulting in 12,000 – 27,00 points of ret damage taken.
- Elementalist lava font (I don’t know exact number of possible strikes, but its a LOT) I was fighting a staff ele in spvp. I had no power at all in my build. He downed me (inside a lava font) when I had ret up, and I took him down to about 10% hp just from the base ret damage.
- Elementalist Meteor shower
- Guardian Smite 15 attacks on standard 6 second cooldown.
I’m at work so there are more skills that I am not thinking of.
Some solutions to the current ret issue, I like the first idea the most:
- Add a cooldown to it, it can be super short so it still penalizes rapid attacks, but such that it won’t destroy people in a single skill use. For example, you can only take ret damage from that single enemy every .5 or 1 seconds.
- Can’t take more than a certain total of ret dmg in a certain time span. If I AoE an enemy group, only _ # of enemies can damage me via ret. In other words, it caps on how many sources you can take ret damage from.
- Retaliation damage taken is based on a % of the damage you dealt to enemy targets.
- Diminishing returns. Retaliation damage is reduced the more you take from it. Example: I take 3 strikes of adrenaline. First strike does 450 dmg, second does 400, third does 350, etc etc.
- Certain skills are “Immune to Retaliation Damage” just like some skills are unblockable. This seems like a temporary solution, but who knows, perhaps this could just be for the skills with glaring issues.
I think it would actually be pretty cool if retaliation was much stronger but much less available. This way you couldn’t just have it up all the time, however it would be much better as a reactive ability, so when that warrior starts spinning around I top of you, it could be used as a counter.
Let’s do some more brainstorming. I would like to see all weapons, utilities, and playstyles promoted in WvW. I hate seeing weapons which could have fantastic potential (like flamethrower) discarded because a mechanic hinders them so much.
(edited by WhiteAndMilky.2514)
Giving it a 1 second cooldown per enemy seems fair imo as they won’t punish those quick multi attacks as hard but if a good number of people have ret on it would still hurt people who would otherwise spam aoe all over. Multi strike attacks already suffer from generally low damage, such as that sith lighting eles have, they don’t need more factors to hinder them.
(edited by Penguin.5197)
I don’t have the statistics but seems retaliation is a counter to AoE spammers. I think eliminating or toning counters down to relative uselessness would give rise to even more AoE skill spam. WvW is already 90% AoE spam.
I think it would actually be pretty cool if retaliation was much stronger but much less available. This way you couldn’t just have it up all the time, however it would be much better as a reactive ability, so when that warrior starts spinning around I top of you, it could be used as a counter.
It is an acceptable counter to AoE spamming.
Mesmer gs auto attack, 9 hits short time from 1200 range. My guard gs swing, 2 swings, 5 ppl, 10 retal, in melee range.
Flamethrower, stop the attack like everyone else on ever other class does when retal bites back. Doctor it hurts when I do this! Stop doing it. “But if I stop attacking I lose!” You got countered, deal with it.
I wish they would revert confusion damage too and we could bomb zergs again with it.
(edited by Omnitek.3876)
It is an acceptable counter to AoE spamming.
Mesmer gs auto attack, 9 hits short time from 1200 range. My guard gs swing, 2 swings, 5 ppl, 10 retal, in melee range.
Flamethrower, stop the attack like everyone else on ever other class does when retal bites back. Doctor it hurts when I do this! Stop doing it. “But if I stop attacking I lose!” You got countered, deal with it.
I wish they would revert confusion damage too and we could bomb zergs again with it.
Yes but you miss the point. I agree that we need a counter to AoE spam. But it punishes too heavily for some abilities. As someone mentioned above, some of these super high hit count skills actually don’t all do a lot of damage, so why are they being severely punished? If I am playing most flamethrower engi builds and I encounter a perma ret guardian, literally the only way I can counter him is by not fighting him. That’s seems pretty lame, and makes for a very uninteresting game.
I like the idea of increased retaliation damage, with a reduction in the amount of ways it can be applied or the duration of the boon. Then people would place their retaliation more re-actively instead of as a constant boon. Thumbs up for this idea, I’m going to edit it into the main post!
I also liked the increased confusion damage. I felt that the issue with confusion wasn’t the damage, it was that it applied at times when it shouldn’t. Like when I did a dodge move with a minor trait that does some effect. I dodged to avoid damage, but I had confusion so I took damage…. not cool. Or “I have 20 stacks of confusion on me, better cleanse myself” POW as you explode and die from using your cleansing skill. It’s the same issue I have with ret, I actually really like that Ret exists, I think it’s an interesting element of the game, but I don’t think it’s implemented in the best way.
I don’t like mechanics that the counter to is…. doing nothing.
vs Perma ret players – “better do nothing, I’ll kill myself”
vs confusion – “oh I have a lot of confusion on myself, better do nothing”
vs Torment – “oh torment is on me, I better stand still and do nothing”
Of course you’ll look at this and say “oh well counter those by boon stripping and cleansing” but you must understand that not every class has easy access to those.
Yes but you miss the point. I agree that we need a counter to AoE spam. But it punishes too heavily for some abilities. As someone mentioned above, some of these super high hit count skills actually don’t all do a lot of damage, so why are they being severely punished? If I am playing most flamethrower engi builds and I encounter a perma ret guardian, literally the only way I can counter him is by not fighting him. That’s seems pretty lame, and makes for a very uninteresting game.
He is the rock to your scissors. I am sure you are the scissors to someone else’s paper.
I see a solo Guardian of any flavor on my thief and generally see an easy kill. Condi-bunker engineer comes along and I have practically no way to beat that class aside from them being less skillful than I.
There’s a few things you can do with Flamethrower to mitigate the punishment you’d take from the way retaliation procs with it. I use Backpack Regen and Omnomberry Pie. I’ll also use the pulse heal from Elixir Gun’s Super Elixir. And most importantly, don’t use auto-attack, auto-targetting, and target promotion. You want to have maximum control over FT #1 by aiming it with camera alone so you can turn it away from your target when you start to see your health burn away. So Ctrl-Right Click that skill button to turn off auto-attack, as per Phineas Poe’s FT/EG guide.
Flamethrower, stop the attack like everyone else on ever other class does when retal bites back
You clearly have no experience with the Flamethrower.
Flamethrower, stop the attack like everyone else on ever other class does when retal bites back
You clearly have no experience with the Flamethrower.
Swap kits, dodge, use another skill, etc etc.
Yes, you eat tons of rental damage with it, feel free to use any of the mentioned remedies to stop retal damage from killing you. Dont worry, I dont have a geared 80 or every class /rollseyes
As someone said before, you got countered.
Ranger longbow 5 is the only valid complaint skill vs retal. Maybe chaos storm from mes and lavafont from ele.
(edited by Omnitek.3876)
retal is in a pretty good place now. it was nerfed by 33 or 50% around the same time as pvp confusion, and since then i dont feel the need to complain about it.
i play a grenade engi.
Flamethrower, stop the attack like everyone else on ever other class does when retal bites back
You clearly have no experience with the Flamethrower.
Swap kits, dodge, use another skill, etc etc.
Yes, you eat tons of rental damage with it, feel free to use any of the mentioned remedies to stop retal damage from killing you. Dont worry, I dont have a geared 80 or every class /rollseyes
As someone said before, you got countered.
Ranger longbow 5 is the only valid complaint skill vs retal. Maybe chaos storm from mes and lavafont from ele.
I got countered? I should try the remedies I offered? Man, learn to read.
Ranger can use the same trick with Barrage, stand in a pulsing healing field like engineer’s Super Elixir.
P.S. There’s no dodge out of grenades or FT.
All this talk about “countered” and “rock/paper/scissors” doesn’t mean a thing in large scale WvW. A FT Engi will just suicide in just a few seconds. FT spec is the closest thing we have to a heavy melee set and its completely useless in the situation that it was built for. Large groups is the only place the FT damage is even viable yet every large group in WvW has Retal.
Rock paper scissors is sucky balance. What exactly is flamethrower so effective against that it deserves to be rendered literally unusable in its preferred use by an easily spammed buff?
Added the most obvious of balance changes, I had omitted it on accident.
Personally I don’t have a problem with retaliation, despite what some people claim it has never had a major impact (read: major, it does have some impact) on small scale fights.
Usually where retaliation comes into play (Nerf Requesting-wise) is in the large scale fights where you have essentially: Eles, Mesmers, and Engis purposely putting out big sums of AoE damage (usually with glassy builds) getting retal from half of those they tag, and instagibbing.
With that in mind retaliation is fine to me, because I am for anything that encourages some precaution be used on the part of glass cannon zergers, yes I understand there is no way you can know if all those enemies have retaliation, but yes I like the “gamble” aspect of it.
You should not be able to sit in a keep/tower and spam zerk skills all day with no chance of penalty. There needs to be a “chance” of penalty for most AoE skills, especially with the zerging meta, and yes I understand that a small group AoEing a larger group gets hurt by retaliation. But unfortunately that is a negative byproduct of an overall useful mechanic in most situations.
EDIT: Yes I understand not all AoE’ers are Zerk/glass, my point was that in the past when this has came up a large sum of the people complaining were running DPS-ish builds.
EDITx2: Also I have 8 fully geared toons, and spend 100% of my time in WvW, so yes I understand the game mechanics as much as anyone else.
(edited by King Amadaeus.8619)
Retaliation is fine.
Fire shield is fine.
Confusion is fine…….even though I abhor it.
Just never really had a problem with Ret. I never really speced for it myself on any of my characters cus I always felt it was underpowered. When I get hit with it its always a few ticks of a couple hundred dmg less than most auto attacks. Maybe its cause I don’t run glass cannon builds though but in that case those enemy auto attacks are gonna wreck you as well. Pro tip don’t run glass cannon builds in wvw.
God no, don’t ever do that. This entire thread is a bad idea.
I think retaliation is fine how it is but if you wanted to add a cooldown, you’d have to increase the damage by quite a bit.
Actually, that would do quite a bit towards eliminating the “spike damage” meta used mostly by thieves and d/d eles.
But then, there’s already too much reward for zerging.
Meteor Shower throws out loads of hits, too, but it’s no issue there, because you will actually dish out similar damage to your targets.
You forgot the biggest retal victim, tho: Feedback bubble. Throw that onto a ranged zerg and watch your hp melt.
But…but…It’s so funny when they kill themselves trying to hurt my tanky guardian.
Suggestion 1: Simply change it to reflect a % of the damage back to the attacker as opposed to a specific amount each hit.
Suggestion 2: When struck and retaliation returns damage, it consumes the boon so it can only proc once. Let it stack in some fashion and deal more damage depending on the number of stacks it has. Change confusion to do this too so it will trigger once.
Suggestion 1: Simply change it to reflect a % of the damage back to the attacker as opposed to a specific amount each hit.
Suggestion 2: When struck and retaliation returns damage, it consumes the boon so it can only proc once. Let it stack in some fashion and deal more damage depending on the number of stacks it has. Change confusion to do this too so it will trigger once.
Yeah I have #1 already in the OP. #2 is an interesting idea
I have made Atherakhia’s #2 suggestion before may times from the start of the game, making it work similiar to aegis but stacking intensity instead of duration. Then they could possibly buff the damage back up, and nothing would change too much though, just forcing people to stack retal up.
Ideally I would like to see the #1 change, as it would still Instagib glass cannons that recklessly spam attacks, but not instagib a full on tanky person dealing out piddly damage
This game’s PvP is balanced around sPvP; not WvW. In sPvP, Retaliation works fine since it has a lower maximum theoretical target limit than in WvW. The designers stubborn and delusional goals of this game being an E-Sport one day are what drive the terrible balance issues of WvW. (The actually successful game type of GW2)
To those says “countered”: You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
(edited by Nokaru.7831)
Added diminishing returns as a solution.
The perfect counter to AoE spam is to just not ball up. You see, if you let retaliation stay (or make it stronger), your going to alienate classes and people from WvW.
You think the population is bad now? What do you think it’ll look like if all WvW battles turned out to be a case where everyone would turn on stability, charge to the “centre”, spam conditions, spam “1” and whoever has the best boon strip/condition removal wins?
No thanks, that’s about as boring as you can get.
Bottom line, if people feel they can’t play their classes the way they want to play or are meant to be played, they will probably abstain from WvW completely. Either that or just roll a guardian or warrior. Now how would that look, nothing but guardians and warriors.
Retaliation doesn’t bother me and I do spam AoE. I also just happen to wait 10-20 seconds after the battles start before I spam it. In reality though, retaliation should have at least a 1s internal cool down, and a player should only be hit with it by 1 enemy at a time. Not AoE’ing 5 people and taking kittens of retaliation for it.
Its for reasons like this that I actually use this abnormal thing called a Sigil of Nullification. 60% chance to remove a boon on crit, yeah 10 sec icd, but it’s still effective.
Coming form WvW I do have to agree that it needs a cap or something, that amount of dmg it can shot back it too much.
for those that say counter it (ie not attacking or stripping it ), as an ele thats a lot easier said then done, run in drop meteor shower on zerg, 1 sec later die from Retaliation. And there is no way to stop meteor after its out I just have to take the death.
I really don’t know how you’d take that much damage from retaliation using Meteor Shower, unless you’re running absolutely no vitality and are stuck with ten thousand health.
But reading through this, I think I’d agree that the best solution would be a very small internal cooldown per target, and increasing the damage retaliation does, preferably increasing the scaling in relation to power. This way, straight tanks can’t stroll in with retaliation and reflect a ton of damage, players speccing into damage will be the ones doing so, and hopefully be a bit less resilient for it.
- Engineer flamethrower auto attack. The flamethrower by design is aimed to promote close combat AoE damage. But if you hit 2 or more guardians (which can spec for perma-retaliation) you can very very quickly destroy yourself. Each auto hits for 10 strikes, that’s anywhere from 2000 – 4500 retaliation damage to yourself, from an auto attack on a SINGLE TARGET. 2 guards with ret up? 4000-9000 damage to yourself. Hit 3 guardians with ret? Oh you’re dead in one or 2 auto attacks.
Using Flame Thrower against a guardian with retal is like me popping shouts inside a Well of Corruption.
Stupid, and should be punished.
Furthermore, the fact that you believe retal can hit for 450 makes you look ignorant.
- Engineer grenades. They are all multi hit aoe skills. I believe each grenade can hit a maximum of 5 people. Well if I throw a properly spec’d grenade barrage, which is 7 grenades, I can potentially take 35 strikes of retaliation against me, just from 1 skill. That’s between 7000 and 15,750 damage depending on the power of the target. That’s insane… I hurt myself for almost all of my HP with 1 skill.
Grenade engi is already one of the best counters to a Guardian. Do you really want to remove the only drawback?
more bad examples
Why aren’t you listing any Guardian skills? Like Smite? Or Whirling Wrath? Maybe you just want to get Guardian nerfed?
(edited by EFWinters.5421)
@EFWinters: The problem is not 1vs1. Its zerg battles and the ease of applying retaliation to an entire blob. Flamethrower #1 hits 10 times in 2s. Each tick hits up to 5 targets. Thats a maximum of 50 hits in 2s.
Retaliation damage is: 198.45 + (0.075 * Power)
So with 3000 power its 423 * 50 = 21.150 damage from retaliation.
Engi Grenade Barrage is 7 grenade = a maximum of 35 hits. Thats 14.805 damage from retaliation.
Warr Axe anytime chain is 6 hits which cleaves to up to 3 enemies (18 hits). 7.615 damage from retaliation.
Warr Volley (rifle) hits up to 3 targets (pierce) 5 times (15 hits). 6.345 damage from retaliation.
Do you need more examples?
No passive ability should deal such massive amounts of damage!
Its a similiar problem as with confusion before they nerfed it. People said “just stop attacking when you have 25 stacks confusion”. But thats stupid.
In the case of Retaliation only a few professions/ skills are punished extremely hard. It doesnt make any sense at all.
(edited by teg.1340)
@EFWinters: The problem is not 1vs1. Its zerg battles and the ease of applying retaliation to an entire blob. Flamethrower #1 hits 10 times in 2s. Each tick hits up to 5 targets. Thats a maximum of 50 hits in 2s.
Retaliation damage is: 198.45 + (0.075 * Power)
So with 3000 power its 423 * 50 = 21.150 damage from retaliation.
Engi Grenade Barrage is 7 grenade = a maximum of 35 hits. Thats 14.805 damage from retaliation.
Warr Axe anytime chain is 6 hits which cleaves to up to 3 enemies (18 hits). 7.615 damage from retaliation.
No passive ability should deal such massive damage!
Its a similiar problem as with confusion before they nerfed it. People said “just stop attacking when you have 25 stacks confusion”. But thats stupid.
In the case of Retaliation only a few professions/ skills are punished extremely hard. It doesnt make any sense at all.
First of all, retal deals alot less damage in WvW.
Second of all, did you even read my post? My argument was that using Flamethrower in a zerg battle is STUPID.
Just like using knockdowns on a target with stability.
Or attacking inside a Shadow Refuge.
Or popping boons in a Well of Corruption.
Or spamming conditions on Elementalists or Engineers who are immune to them.
Or popping your heal when you have 1s of Poison left on you.
Or moving around with 25 stacks of Agony.
Or spamming attacks with 25 stacks of Confusion.
Or having autotarget on.
Or jumping off a cliff.
I could list 200 other things but if you consider using Flamethrower against a zerg when you know they have a lot of retal uptime not stupid, I’m not so sure you would understand why these things are stupid.
I could play my Guardian stupidly, but I don’t. The same option exist for you.
@EFWinters: The problem is not 1vs1. Its zerg battles and the ease of applying retaliation to an entire blob. Flamethrower #1 hits 10 times in 2s. Each tick hits up to 5 targets. Thats a maximum of 50 hits in 2s.
Retaliation damage is: 198.45 + (0.075 * Power)
So with 3000 power its 423 * 50 = 21.150 damage from retaliation.
Engi Grenade Barrage is 7 grenade = a maximum of 35 hits. Thats 14.805 damage from retaliation.
Warr Axe anytime chain is 6 hits which cleaves to up to 3 enemies (18 hits). 7.615 damage from retaliation.
No passive ability should deal such massive damage!
Its a similiar problem as with confusion before they nerfed it. People said “just stop attacking when you have 25 stacks confusion”. But thats stupid.
In the case of Retaliation only a few professions/ skills are punished extremely hard. It doesnt make any sense at all.
First of all, retal deals alot less damage in WvW.
Second of all, did you even read my post? My argument was that using Flamethrower in a zerg battle is STUPID.
Just like using knockdowns on a target with stability.
Or attacking inside a Shadow Refuge.
Or popping boons in a Well of Corruption.
Or spamming conditions on Elementalists or Engineers who are immune to them.
Or popping your heal when you have 1s of Poison left on you.
Or moving around with 25 stacks of Agony.
Or spamming attacks with 25 stacks of Confusion.
Or having autotarget on.
Or jumping off a cliff.
I could list 200 other things but if you consider using Flamethrower against a zerg when you know they have a lot of retal uptime not stupid, I’m not so sure you would understand why these things are stupid.
I could play my Guardian stupidly, but I don’t. The same option exist for you.
So your essentially telling them to not use a skill, or in this case, many skills tied to their class… What you’ve listed has absolutely nothing to do with the concern in what’s being brought up.
As I said earlier, if people either feel they cannot play their class the way they’d like to play, or the way the class is meant to be played, your going to run into a bigger problem; nobody to fight. Either that, or all guardians or warriors. If you were smart, you’d support it being re-tweaked.
Put it this way, if Anet decides to give warriors an ability that reflects the zergs retaliation back to the sole guardian killing them instantly.. what is your stance on it then? Somehow I think you’d just be a tad miffed.
So your essentially telling them to not use a skill, or in this case, many skills tied to their class… What you’ve listed has absolutely nothing to do with the concern in what’s being brought up.
Yes. I am telling them to not use a skill when a counter to that skill is in play.
Again, I don’t spam my knockdowns when the enemy has stability.
I don’t attack inside a Shadow Refuge.
I don’t pop boons in a Well of Corruption.
I don’t spam conditions on Elementalists or Engineers who are immune to them.
I don’t pop my heal when I have 1s of Poison left on me.
I don’t move around with 25 stacks of Agony.
I don’t spam attacks with 25 stacks of Confusion.
I don’t have autotarget on.
I don’t sometimes jump off a cliff.
As I said earlier, if people either feel they cannot play their class the way they’d like to play, or the way the class is meant to be played, your going to run into a bigger problem; nobody to fight. Either that, or all guardians or warriors. If you were smart, you’d support it being re-tweaked.
No, if every player can play whatever they want and use whatever skills whenever they want it’s no longer PvP. It’s the first heart quest in Queensdale.
Put it this way, if Anet decides to give warriors an ability that reflects the zergs retaliation back to the sole guardian killing them instantly.. what is your stance on it then? Somehow I think you’d just be a tad miffed.
Somehow I think this would never happen.
So your essentially telling them to not use a skill, or in this case, many skills tied to their class… What you’ve listed has absolutely nothing to do with the concern in what’s being brought up.
Yes. I am telling them to not use a skill when a counter to that skill is in play.
Again, I don’t spam my knockdowns when the enemy has stability.
I don’t attack inside a Shadow Refuge.
I don’t pop boons in a Well of Corruption.
I don’t spam conditions on Elementalists or Engineers who are immune to them.
I don’t pop my heal when I have 1s of Poison left on me.
I don’t move around with 25 stacks of Agony.
I don’t spam attacks with 25 stacks of Confusion.
I don’t have autotarget on.
I
don’tsometimes jump off a cliff.As I said earlier, if people either feel they cannot play their class the way they’d like to play, or the way the class is meant to be played, your going to run into a bigger problem; nobody to fight. Either that, or all guardians or warriors. If you were smart, you’d support it being re-tweaked.
No, if every player can play whatever they want and use whatever skills whenever they want it’s no longer PvP. It’s the first heart quest in Queensdale.
Put it this way, if Anet decides to give warriors an ability that reflects the zergs retaliation back to the sole guardian killing them instantly.. what is your stance on it then? Somehow I think you’d just be a tad miffed.
Somehow I think this would never happen.
A counter to that skill and many skills like it will always be in play. The mechanical problems are justs as evident in roaming and dueling scenarios as well. Cry as you might, retaliation is overpowered in its current mechanic. No one would care if it returned a fraction of the damage dealt. It’s a problem when it returns almost as much damage as you deal in the first place because of poor skill design.
It’s far more reasonable for ANet to come up with a solution that impacts retaliation alone then try and change a dozen other skills only to still find out retaliation is too powerful.
There’s really no arguing retaliation is overpowered. Every non-guardian knows this to be the case just like every non-mesmer knew confusion was overpowered. The issue is how to address it.
A counter to that skill and many skills like it will always be in play. The mechanical problems are justs as evident in roaming and dueling scenarios as well. Cry as you might, retaliation is overpowered in its current mechanic. No one would care if it returned a fraction of the damage dealt. It’s a problem when it returns almost as much damage as you deal in the first place because of poor skill design.
Poor skill design? These skills ignore my Aegis, have a lot higher chance to proc on-crit/hit effects as well as sigils. What you seemingly fail to understand is that every skill does, and should have both drawbacks and advantages.
There’s really no arguing retaliation is overpowered. Every non-guardian knows this to be the case just like every non-mesmer knew confusion was overpowered. The issue is how to address it.
Oh really? How would you know if it’s OP when you haven’t even played a Guardian? I have 16 level 80’s, Guardian is far from my most played profession and I’m telling you it’s not OP. See, I actually have some basis for that statement, since I know exactly what it’s like not only playing against, but also with retaliation.
(edited by EFWinters.5421)
A counter to that skill and many skills like it will always be in play. The mechanical problems are justs as evident in roaming and dueling scenarios as well. Cry as you might, retaliation is overpowered in its current mechanic. No one would care if it returned a fraction of the damage dealt. It’s a problem when it returns almost as much damage as you deal in the first place because of poor skill design.
Poor skill design? These skills ignore my Aegis, have a lot higher chance to proc on-crit/hit effects as well as sigils. What you seemingly fail to understand is that every skill does, and should have both drawbacks and advantages.
There’s really no arguing retaliation is overpowered. Every non-guardian knows this to be the case just like every non-mesmer knew confusion was overpowered. The issue is how to address it.
Oh really? How would you know if it’s OP when you haven’t even played a Guardian? I have 16 level 80’s, Guardian is far from my most played profession and I’m telling you it’s not OP. See, I actually have some basis for that statement, since I know exactly what it’s like not only playing against, but also with retaliation.
I have 8 level 80s. I also run spiked armor on my warrior currently. Congrats.
Using Flame Thrower against a guardian with retal is like me popping shouts inside a Well of Corruption.
Stupid, and should be punished.
Furthermore, the fact that you believe retal can hit for 450 makes you look ignorant.
Grenade engi is already one of the best counters to a Guardian. Do you really want to remove the only drawback?
Why aren’t you listing any Guardian skills? Like Smite? Or Whirling Wrath? Maybe you just want to get Guardian nerfed?
Rapid hit skills should be counterable. But perma ret should not exist. Also, I shouldn’t be punished for an auto attack skill so heavily. It’s not like it’s the #5 skill on a 30 second cooldown, this is 10 strikes every 2 seconds from an auto attack….
Retal can hit for very close to 450 damage.
We’re not talking about 1v1’s. Ret can be balanced such that it does EXACTLY what it is doing currently in small combat, but in large combat would have its blowback reduced.
I didn’t list any guardian ones because I was at work when I wrote it. There are plenty of others that aren’t listed there. Meteor shower, lava font, dagger storm, etc.
Please don’t bring your ego next time, it’s just a discussion.
I have 16 level 80’s, Guardian is far from my most played profession and I’m telling you it’s not OP. See, I actually have some basis for that statement, since I know exactly what it’s like not only playing against, but also with retaliation.
I have 17 =D
My second lvl 80 was a boon based perma ret/prot/regen spec guardian. I know things too =)
(edited by WhiteAndMilky.2514)
This discussion has predictably devolved.
sigh
Some people want to nerf retaliation even further. Frankly, I’ve had little issue with it since its damage was reduced and I enjoy doing stupid things like using flamethrower auto-attack on a zerg.
Some people want to ignore the facts surrounding how badly retaliation procs on certain skills due to what is clearly a design oversight. Anet doesn’t design skills to not be used ever because of the ease with which a group can keep area retaliation up, especially auto-attack skills. It’s silly to argue along these lines.
Instead of retreating into the same old rehashed qq, how about coming to an agreement that retaliation proccing on those skills needs addressing instead of nerfing retaliation’s damage? There’s absolutely no reason why activation of those skills should return way way more damage than they put out when retaliation is intended to return only a portion of damage.
Rapid hit skills should be counterable. But perma ret should not exist. Also, I shouldn’t be punished for an auto attack skill so heavily. It’s not like it’s the #5 skill on a 30 second cooldown, this is 10 strikes every 2 seconds from an auto attack….
On a kit that nobody is forcing you to use.
Retal can hit for very close to 450 damage.
450 is 67% of ~680.
198.45 + (0.075 * Power) = 680
Power = 6426
Does this seem reasonable to you?
We’re not talking about 1v1’s. Ret can be balanced such that it does EXACTLY what it is doing currently in small combat, but in large combat would have its blowback reduced.
There are a lot more pressing issues in large combat than Retaliation, trust me. Why we should even care about blob combat or balance around it is beyond me regardless.
The new “Guards hit you get retaliation” Deal pretty much has my grenade engi shelved at the moment.
Not so much before that. Before that a few guardians or whatever having retaliation was no big deal, you just took a little bit of damage and kept pushing through, or you worked the guardian putting it up with pistol and condition damage.
I always considered my engi to be best at pressuring people on doors or outside keeps, via high rate of attack grenade spammage. In your normal zerg you will end up with a pretty good number of people with that new wvw trait line, and the only option a grenade engi has is to simply stop attacking, making us useless.
I play a hybrid power/condi necro as well and retaliation really doesn’t effect that character in its present form.
As it stands an engi is forced to stop attacking completely for long periods of time, and I am not sure that is working as intended.
Guards at gates are pretty much a negative thing for the defending side right now.
In short I don’t think Retaliation itself is a problem, just its ease of availability via new WvW lines.
(edited by Easterbunny.6170)
450 is 67% of ~680.
198.45 + (0.075 * Power) = 680
Power = 6426
Does this seem reasonable to you?
What are you trying to do?
I like the guy that said using a Flamethrower in a zerg is stupid. Of course it’s stupid, that’s the whole point of this thread. The weapon was designed for this very thing, close range aoe damage. One should not insta die to a no brain passive ability using a weapon in the way it was intended to be used. The same goes for nades. Honestly, this is a thread that always crops up from time to time, and it’s usually an engineer that starts it (I know because I started one before). I gave up the fight, I only solo roam or run small havoc on my engy or any class for that matter. Guardian/Warrior melee blobs are the most boring gameplay I’ve ever been a part of in any game’s rvr/wvw.
Lets not.
I like the guy that said using a Flamethrower in a zerg is stupid. Of course it’s stupid, that’s the whole point of this thread. The weapon was designed for this very thing, close range aoe damage. One should not insta die to a no brain passive ability using a weapon in the way it was intended to be used. The same goes for nades. Honestly, this is a thread that always crops up from time to time, and it’s usually an engineer that starts it (I know because I started one before). I gave up the fight, I only solo roam or run small havoc on my engy or any class for that matter. Guardian/Warrior melee blobs are the most boring gameplay I’ve ever been a part of in any game’s rvr/wvw.
Then change up the mechanics of those skills not retaliation.
450 is 67% of ~680.
198.45 + (0.075 * Power) = 680
Power = 6426
Does this seem reasonable to you?
What are you trying to do?
I’m asking if 6400 power is reasonable.
Or change the mechanics of retaliation proccing on multi-hit AoE skills.
I like the guys who say don’t bring an engineer to a large group fight because the class is poor at it and then get all upset when a reason why is identified and suggestions are made to improve the situation.
As a ranger, when defending base or sniping people, Retaliation really did turn me off. I could not Barrage into a group because I will end up killing myself. My Rapid fire is really my only way to deal reliable amount of damage because Ranger LB DPS is lolworthy anyway. Having to cancel it really stings.
But I don’t really have much to complain about it. Sure I can’t really easily kill Vet Kanka to farm because I could easily kill myself 6x from the Retaliation if I never healed but that’s because I’m playing the only class with no boon Removal in the game.
The problem comes after you learn how easy it is to keep retaliation up for the whole team, while also having regen and Ele/Guardian passive regen on both at the same time, making you almost unkillable and at the same time, kill those that tried to kill you. Sure you can go ahead and remove them but if I don’t die in 3 seconds, I’m going to have them all back up again.
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