Guild Wars 2

I’ve been back for a couple weeks after being on hiatus for about a year, and I figure I’d do some Wvving to get gifts for my legendary, and maybe the legacy armor sets as well.

But thanks to odd hours of play and with WvW being… well, you know… I find myself doing most of the dailies without a zerg, usually with only a couple other roamers or by myself, and it’s pretty apparent every time I run into an enemy player that I need a much better way to fight them that just whatever character that I happened to be using at the time.

So, I figure I’d ask you guys for some suggestions for some good WvW roamer builds. Any idea will do, but I got 4 stipulations.

1. Any prof but Thief. I am terrible with Thieves in pvp settings, so that’s right out. Main Engi for PvE though, so I’m reasonably good with complex rotations, I just get too button-mashy when I’m doing something tense and end up wasting all my initiative on some skill I only wanted one use of.

2. Doesn’t rely too much on the current flavor of cheese. This isn’t a issue of fairness or anything like that, I just don’t want to have the build all ready only for ANET to (finally) nerf it at the end of the sPvP season. Plus cheese usually only works until the moment you run into someone that knows the counter to the cheese, and then you just die over and over.

3. Runes should not be (too) difficult to get. Most of this is going to be built from scratch, so keep that in mind. I do high tier fractals every day, so pricey runes aren’t an issue, it’s just dungeon and uncraftable/unTP-able HoT Runes that I’m concerned about. Any sigils are ok, since I’ll probably only need one or two of them, and I understand 95% of the builds out there use HoT statsets, so bring them on.

4. Finally, gotta be fun to actually play. This is kinda a no-cheese thing as well, but dropping 4 traps outside of a gate and waiting for someone to trip it and die (or the equivalent) is not what I call fun.

Also, not important, but bonus points if it’s just a weapon swap and/or some trait adjustments away from being a decent zerg build. Sometimes there’s one running around, and I’d like to feel like I’m doing something more than just leeching bags and hauling supplies.

I hope you can help, and thanks for any suggestions!

My suggestion would be to go with warrior. It’s decent in every game mode and can adapt to any situation usually just by changing weapons. Its also easy to pick up on for people not used to wvw and is pretty fun to play as. More experienced players will still destroy you though until you get good with it. Its the best thing i could think of though that doesn’t rely on cheese like condi mes. Condi mes is god mode in wvw and even brand new players could 1 vs 3 with it, but its very boring to play as imo. So unless you have some disability and can only play with 1 hand, or have super slow reaction speed and need something to carry you, i’d advise against it.

Marauder armor with durability or hoelbrak runes with cleansing/energy sigils on swap. Cleansing sigils will need to be crafted, Durability runes are easy enough to get with proofs of heroics from wvw. The rest can be bought on the tp. You’ll be able to handle most things in wvw. And as you asked, its just a simple matter of changing weapons if you want to run with a group. Axe or mace/shield with gs for roaming, and you can just use hammer or rifle in a group. Def, disc, zerker are the standard traitlines. It should be obvious what traits to pick for wvw. Survival stuff is most important, damage comes as an afterthought and you do more than enough damage as a warrior anyway without taking damage traits.

Warrior, as described above, is a very, very solid option for roamers. I’d talk about it since I main it myself, but Nikki’s mentioned pretty much everything about it.

Other classes you might want to look into include Dragonhunters and Druids. Both are ranged alternatives to the Warrior’s extreme melee’ness. In fact, Dragonhunters counter other popular roaming classes like thieves and warriors, though at times they might feel ’bunker’y.

If you aren’t sticking around, you might aswell ask for a good scrapper build. Learning how to solo roam on a different class for a month is not practical.

Nice suggestions so far!

Do DH and Warrior roamers both use Marauder armor? That would probably seal the deal on me trying at least one of them, since I could use the armor for the other if it didn’t suit me.

Justine.6351:

If you aren’t sticking around, you might aswell ask for a good scrapper build. Learning how to solo roam on a different class for a month is not practical.

A few reasons. Main one is that while Engineer is my “main,” I kinda rotate between all of them as it suits my fancy (for example, most of my fractal running nowadays is done with my Necro) plus while my short-term goals at the moment is for a Gift of Battle and Legacy armor, that is probably not the end of it. There’s almost certainly more legendaries, collections or whatnot afterwards to come back to WvW for, and a roaming-ready build seems like a good investment towards that.

Also, I couldn’t find an Engi roaming build anywhere. If you know one I’d be happy to hear it!

Foefaller.1082:

Nice suggestions so far!

Do DH and Warrior roamers both use Marauder armor? That would probably seal the deal on me trying at least one of them, since I could use the armor for the other if it didn’t suit me.

Justine.6351:

If you aren’t sticking around, you might aswell ask for a good scrapper build. Learning how to solo roam on a different class for a month is not practical.

A few reasons. Main one is that while Engineer is my “main,” I kinda rotate between all of them as it suits my fancy (for example, most of my fractal running nowadays is done with my Necro) plus while my short-term goals at the moment is for a Gift of Battle and Legacy armor, that is probably not the end of it. There’s almost certainly more legendaries, collections or whatnot afterwards to come back to WvW for.

Also, I couldn’t find an Engi roaming build anywhere. If you know one I’d be happy to hear it!

Durability runes ftw on warri.Stats full zerk,marauder if you really think you need the hp,but imo theres no need for it.

Durability runes are super strong on almost every class :P

Condi mesmer, Chrono/PU, torch + decoy + mass invisibility. Thief is fine too, with shadow refuge and evades.

As a medium skilled player, I have no other roaming options. Invisibility helps to get away. Condi mesmer makes combat more equal.

I have failed to cap camps with power mesmer, but with scepter/torch (only) condi mesmer the camps are easy.

I play vanilla game. I roam nowadays 95% of time because being in a zerg can be tedious and too intense. Home bl always needs roamers to defend and flip things.

Small scale fights raises participation to 100%. If you see 2 to 4 enemy roamers, just go and fight with fellow roamers. Don’t stand on the wall.

Power necro. Be a man.

As said above, warrior. Marauder with durability runes can be used with almost any class and you’ll still perform with top notch power damage whilst be a pseudo tank. I know revenant has been hit hard with nerfs but they are still fundamentally a very strong class for small scale fights, especially with marauder dura combination (particularly to the fact that revs themselves are boon dispensers). Durability runes on a dragonhunter are just deadly if you can overlook the fact that you’re slow.

If i were to choose a single class and armor set for all game modes though, it’d be a marauder warrior with strength runes/ zerk trinkets. You may not be as tanky as dura or bursty as full beserkers, you’re technically at an inbetween where most raid elitists won’t mind and still scary as kitten in wvw roaming. I mean, 10k eviscerates and arcing slice? Yes please.

Marauder’s (imo) for warrior is a waste because we already have plenty of vitality, thus making toughness far more beneficial. I’d suggest either going full zerk with durability runes and defensive food, or do what I did and go with zerk trinkets and weapons with knight’s armor, scrapper runes, and power food.

Yeah gonna have to agree and say Warrior, it’s pretty much a Swiss army knife of professions. Admittedly not the best but it will get you a lot of places, I’d say Guardian after that as well. Warrior is easiest to learn but hard to absolutely master.

Most other professions are too cheese heavy and those few who play in the easy to cheese professions that can play without cheese are extremely rare because it takes skill.

Kit out your scrapper, for solo it’s fine as it has loads of stealth and sustain, lots of might stacking and can go toe to toe with many builds whether they be power or condi.

This is what I’m running at the moment, you can always switch out zerker armour to marauder for extra vitality at the cost of ferocity. If you replace either bloodlust or energy sigil with concentration you can hit 100% boon duration easily with just 2 wanderers accessories and can switch rings and amulet to PVT, zerk or whatever you want.

It’s worth mentioning a scrapper plays well with others but warriors less so as they tend to be all about personal survivability and offer very little for allies. Scrapper brings group stealth, group cleanses, group damage reduction, poison and if you see the enemy coming you can generally switch a utility and you will win easily.

apharma.3741:

Kit out your scrapper, for solo it’s fine as it has loads of stealth and sustain, lots of might stacking and can go toe to toe with many builds whether they be power or condi.

This is what I’m running at the moment, you can always switch out zerker armour to marauder for extra vitality at the cost of ferocity. If you replace either bloodlust or energy sigil with concentration you can hit 100% boon duration easily with just 2 wanderers accessories and can switch rings and amulet to PVT, zerk or whatever you want.

It’s worth mentioning a scrapper plays well with others but warriors less so as they tend to be all about personal survivability and offer very little for allies. Scrapper brings group stealth, group cleanses, group damage reduction, poison and if you see the enemy coming you can generally switch a utility and you will win easily.

p/p condi perform far better roaming because it’s the only engie build that has enough lingering pressure to kill fleeing thieves/mesmers/whatever, which is what happens in 9 out of 10 times when roaming. Power Hammer is more fitting for frontlining 5-10 man havoc squads where you are supported by more mobile/ranged classes.

Dawdler.8521:

apharma.3741:

Kit out your scrapper, for solo it’s fine as it has loads of stealth and sustain, lots of might stacking and can go toe to toe with many builds whether they be power or condi.

This is what I’m running at the moment, you can always switch out zerker armour to marauder for extra vitality at the cost of ferocity. If you replace either bloodlust or energy sigil with concentration you can hit 100% boon duration easily with just 2 wanderers accessories and can switch rings and amulet to PVT, zerk or whatever you want.

It’s worth mentioning a scrapper plays well with others but warriors less so as they tend to be all about personal survivability and offer very little for allies. Scrapper brings group stealth, group cleanses, group damage reduction, poison and if you see the enemy coming you can generally switch a utility and you will win easily.

p/p condi perform far better roaming because it’s the only engie build that has enough lingering pressure to kill fleeing thieves/mesmers/whatever, which is what happens in 9 out of 10 times when roaming. Power Hammer is more fitting for frontlining 5-10 man havoc squads where you are supported by more mobile/ranged classes.

I haven’t been killed by a PP condi engy in a 1v1 since HoT came out and that comes from a power shatter mesmer perspective however a power scrapper is very hard to beat generally because they can always disengage when the get low and regen to full/wait for CDs to recharge.

I’ve seen many of these condi engineers and the only people they kill are peopls who didn’t bring any cleanses, which given HoT introduced tons of condition application all I can say is it kills morons in my opinion.

apharma.3741:

I haven’t been killed by a PP condi engy in a 1v1 since HoT came out and that comes from a power shatter mesmer perspective however a power scrapper is very hard to beat generally because they can always disengage when the get low and regen to full/wait for CDs to recharge.

Lolwat?

Engineer or scrapper, power or condi, they have literally zero ways to disengage from a mesmer unless that mesmer is a moron, in my opinion.

Dawdler.8521:

apharma.3741:

I haven’t been killed by a PP condi engy in a 1v1 since HoT came out and that comes from a power shatter mesmer perspective however a power scrapper is very hard to beat generally because they can always disengage when the get low and regen to full/wait for CDs to recharge.

Lolwat?

Engineer or scrapper, power or condi, they have literally zero ways to disengage from a mesmer unless that mesmer is a moron, in my opinion.

Maybe they can’t outrun a mesmer on a z axis, but the mesmer won’t be killing the scrapper unless they are a moron, it’s just a stalled fight for both of them, again though this is from a power shatter point of view. If the power mesmer can’t double burst the engineer the engineer can either heal fully or stealth and recover as stealth prevents most of a mesmers burst damage via mind stack.

Why do people think mesmers are great for chasing? They have a 30s CD blink usually and that’s about it, they rarely have swiftness without running runes/SoI so unless you’re playing guardian most classes are much faster than mesmer over ground. They do however have better in combat Z axis mobility, no denying that but chase not a sausage.

With stealth gyro the engineer can disengage with 5-8s of stealth depending on how long they’ve sat in the gyro with another 6s from toss elixir S. That is more than enough to disengage.

That’s not disengaging. That’s stealthing and hoping for the best. Disengaging is purposely getting so far and so fast you are out of combat. Stealth gyro in particular is extremely bad at that since a single burst will destroy it and any AoE will keep the engie in combat.

Have to agree with Dawdler, P/P is much better for solo roaming. Hammer is great in small groups but it just doesn’t do enough damage solo.
Plus your going to run into a kitten ton of thieves while solo roaming and P/P absolutely wrecks most of them because almost all of them either rely on stealth or evades to remove condi’s. If they use stealth you just burst them and reveal them, if they use evades you just burst them and block/stealth while they burn.

The downside is people can completely hard counter you if they spec for heavy condi removal/resistance.

Dawdler.8521:

That’s not disengaging. That’s stealthing and hoping for the best. Disengaging is purposely getting so far and so fast you are out of combat. Stealth gyro in particular is extremely bad at that since a single burst will destroy it and any AoE will keep the engie in combat.

I guess you and I have completely different ideas of disengage I go by the definition of removing yourself or escaping the fight by whatever means you have whether it be dodge 6 times and teleport, stealth for such a long time no-one will follow or being so fast people can’t catch you.

I really don’t rate pp condi, I’ve been farming those trashy builds for a long time now and generally as long as you clear the burn you can block or dodge the rest forcing them to either stealth or wait on cool downs. I also don’t fear thieves on a scrapper, maybe it’s because I’ve learnt to deal with them on mesmer for so long I find them predictable but whatever. They shouldn’t be able to kill you as you have enough reflects to prevent headshot spam and enough defense on hammer to beat them if they try to fight.

PP just doesn’t have great mitigation at all, it’s all burst and if that fails easily countered.

It might be worth mentioning I see more cleansing ire warriors, dragon hunters, bunker eles, condi mesmers and bunker druids than anything else which can beat pp easily.

I frequently solo roam and run a small man roaming group. Here is a list of the builds my group and I use for your reference: http://xtremetheory.com/builds

There are several videos of game play for some of the builds and hours of footage of myself and my group playing on my stream (also linked from that site above.)

Edit: My personal recommendation is the condi warrior ( http://xtremetheory.com/wvw-roaming-condi-warrior/ ). Runes are super cheap, not too hard to play once you get the skill rotations down, and I doubt anet plans to nurf it any time soon even though they probably should lol. Not enough people play it ( / abuse it ) for them to care enough to do a nurf. It also doesn’t do that well with larger groups as far as the ability to tag enemies goes, which is another reason that they wouldn’t care enough to nurf it lol.

Not sure if by “no cheese” you mean “no condi”, but this build is very tanky and deals a pretty big amount of damage from conditions. A lot of game play videos there for you as well.

Want to avoid cheese and passive play? Want to play a build that isn’t likely to see a nerf? Want a build with some complexity? Don’t want to play a thief? Need it to be slippery enough to slink away from large groups?

One solid roamer build that meets this description in my opinion: Power Mesmer.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8en0nBlphNqB2oBEgilTj68JiirjMA2ggqeav2tF-TVSBQB4R3wDuAAmUJ4CPIAa4IAAt9HyoyPA8AAsk6PbGGAGBhAMzMz0IiICpAEYnF-w

This is my current variant and it hits ridiculously hard mostly from damage bonus stacking. It also has a massive HP pool. The build isn’t really mine but an amalgam of several builds from better players I duel against. Adjustments may be necessary as you play to fit your style.

Lol at the people suggesting Warrior thinking it’s not cheese.

If you want to run something not cheesy, Id say your options are power scrapper, glass herald, glass mesmer, or if you really want to run something condi you can try Necro. All those have a decent balance of strengths/weaknesses and can be fun at roaming.

Straegen.2938:

Want to avoid cheese and passive play? Want to play a build that isn’t likely to see a nerf? Want a build with some complexity? Don’t want to play a thief? Need it to be slippery enough to slink away from large groups?

One solid roamer build that meets this description in my opinion: Power Mesmer.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8en0nBlphNqB2oBEgilTj68JiirjMA2ggqeav2tF-TVSBQB4R3wDuAAmUJ4CPIAa4IAAt9HyoyPA8AAsk6PbGGAGBhAMzMz0IiICpAEYnF-w

This is my current variant and it hits ridiculously hard mostly from damage bonus stacking. It also has a massive HP pool. The build isn’t really mine but an amalgam of several builds from better players I duel against. Adjustments may be necessary as you play to fit your style.

I agree with power mesmer. +1 ( but I prefer different armor and runes )

It’s a bit rough the first week you play it, but once you learn a bit more about the classes and abilities (by losing horribly to them), you start to avoid soaking hits and begin winning 1v1s

ionix.9054:

I agree with power mesmer. +1 ( but I prefer different armor and runes )

Certainly other options. I like Exuberance because it feeds Valkyrie and the Furious Maintenance Oil. Keeps blow up builds from powering it down instantly. Other options would be Marauders with Strength Runes, Crusaders with Defender runes or even head straight for Zerk and Scholar. Lots of options really.

roamzero.9486:

Lol at the people suggesting Warrior thinking it’s not cheese.

ikr! Just this weekend I got a tell from a Warrior (Rifle, Sw/Sh with Durability) about how I was playing a cheese thief build. I was running a hybrid non-stealth interrupt build which this guy thought was somehow cheesier than his vanilla, passive Warrior build.

Straegen.2938:

ionix.9054:

I agree with power mesmer. +1 ( but I prefer different armor and runes )

Certainly other options. I like Exuberance because it feeds Valkyrie and the Furious Maintenance Oil. Keeps blow up builds from powering it down instantly. Other options would be Marauders with Strength Runes, Crusaders with Defender runes or even head straight for Zerk and Scholar. Lots of options really.

roamzero.9486:

Lol at the people suggesting Warrior thinking it’s not cheese.

ikr! Just this weekend I got a tell from a Warrior (Rifle, Sw/Sh with Durability) about how I was playing a cheese thief build. I was running a hybrid non-stealth interrupt build which this guy thought was somehow cheesier than his vanilla, passive Warrior build.

In that particular case the warr might have been an idiot.Rifle vs non stealth thief is a win,if not hes a kitten.

ionix.9054:

Straegen.2938:

Want to avoid cheese and passive play? Want to play a build that isn’t likely to see a nerf? Want a build with some complexity? Don’t want to play a thief? Need it to be slippery enough to slink away from large groups?

One solid roamer build that meets this description in my opinion: Power Mesmer.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8en0nBlphNqB2oBEgilTj68JiirjMA2ggqeav2tF-TVSBQB4R3wDuAAmUJ4CPIAa4IAAt9HyoyPA8AAsk6PbGGAGBhAMzMz0IiICpAEYnF-w

This is my current variant and it hits ridiculously hard mostly from damage bonus stacking. It also has a massive HP pool. The build isn’t really mine but an amalgam of several builds from better players I duel against. Adjustments may be necessary as you play to fit your style.

I agree with power mesmer. +1 ( but I prefer different armor and runes )

It’s a bit rough the first week you play it, but once you learn a bit more about the classes and abilities (by losing horribly to them), you start to avoid soaking hits and begin winning 1v1s

Nah it only takes maybe an hour or two to realise nearly everything can kill you by breaking wind in your direction if you’ve been distracted or CC’d. Well, if you’re playing my variant of zerk scholar, there’s another build that is based on might stacking which uses marauder, I’ll dig it up for the guy, has lower cool downs on many skills so a lot more forgiving and still hits pretty hard.

Strongest duel build is propably mesmer.
I also suggest warrior but as ele main i must also recomend elemetalist :-).
It´s basically a matter what you like. The main thing is you should be fast on the map.
Thief and Warrior can both do it quite compftable. Druid is also in a very good place.
Most roamers i see are druids and daredevils and then mesmers after that warriors. You see a good number of necros too, but thats because people like to play necro and not due to beeing good as roamer.
I personaly play ele or warrior. Ele brings more in small group fights. Warrior can run and kill faster. I play them depending on mood.
My builds are higly personal and far off meta but work for me.

My current warrior roamer:
Options: Use savage instinct. That stunbreak can make a diffrence.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNBhYD7kpDoKEstDwsDgoUsQEYvF3lb0Fp113GBGBgIwAA-TVTBQBf4gAEJlgsQDRi0BAgHAwBV/BCHQAto8jdHIA+pZof7PMhLAwDOCABAQAu5NTn1Zw5Nv5Nv5NPX3m38m38mlCIzxAA-w

Stomp and headbut are my stunbreakers. I realy like stomp. It´s a lot of fun to see my asura flipping around :-). Stunbreaker, CC and stability is a great skill especially to stop rezz or stomp. The CC of the build can be devasting. One stack of stability and stunbreaker won´t save you. Mace shield is much stronger for duels but it´s build for maximum speed and not to be the best duelist. It´s burst is enough to twoshot low armored targets so if a CC fully lands it´s game over. You don´t need full zerker gear for that kill. If you want use zerker trinkets but i use the synergy from toughnes with utility and armored attack. Defy pain is good but for weaklings ^^.

I can do some amazing stunts with it. One most funny was following fastly disengaging oponets with my friend. I did rush + whirle to get close then stomp leaping over them throwing them back. Realy cool moments ^^.
Many will argue it´s bad not to use zerker or marauder and that discipline with mace/shield is much better. Those are solid options but not needed and they run slower ^^. I can actually catch thiefs if they don´t outstealth me to disengage.

Greetings

Wolf

apharma.3741:

Nah it only takes maybe an hour or two to realise nearly everything can kill you by breaking wind in your direction if you’ve been distracted or CC’d. Well, if you’re playing my variant of zerk scholar, there’s another build that is based on might stacking which uses marauder, I’ll dig it up for the guy, has lower cool downs on many skills so a lot more forgiving and still hits pretty hard.

With 25k health and Mantras that add 600 toughness in rotation my version isn’t particularly glassy but has nearly the same DPS as a glass cannon. It is also has strong healing thanks to Restorative Mantras/Illusions. The Zerk and Marauder variants are far more vulnerable.

The learning curve on the build is moderate and its skill depth is high mainly due to timing the shatters, mantras and mastering the interrupts. The build is only for those that like deep dynamic rotations with a lot of counter play.

The true downside to my variant is that it uses an expensive consumable.

OP should define their idea of what cheese is.

To me, cheese is something that has a lot of access to stealth, mobility, and conditions. When I think cheese, I think the full pu condi mesmer, ghost thief, trap runaway ranger, etc.. Mostly mesmer and thief in general are cheese classes to play for most of the meta builds.

XTR.9604:

To me, cheese is something that has a lot of access to stealth, mobility, and conditions. When I think cheese, I think the full pu condi mesmer, ghost thief, trap runaway ranger, etc.. Mostly mesmer and thief in general are cheese classes to play for most of the meta builds.

I think the semi-universal definition of cheese is a build centered around an overly effective and easy to use mechanic in a game. This typically involves a build being both highly effective at their task, very difficult to kill and with a low skill floor.

Your build examples are definitely in the cheese category. Ghost Thief is probably top of the list right now. Passive defensive builds in the DH and Warrior lines are cheese. Stealth stacking thieves, cheese. Condi Chrono, cheese.

Power Mesmer, not cheese. Most non-stealth Thieves, not cheese. Both classes require solid play to stay alive against a skilled opponent when they aren’t relying on high stealth uptime.

Straegen.2938:

XTR.9604:

To me, cheese is something that has a lot of access to stealth, mobility, and conditions. When I think cheese, I think the full pu condi mesmer, ghost thief, trap runaway ranger, etc.. Mostly mesmer and thief in general are cheese classes to play for most of the meta builds.

I think the semi-universal definition of cheese is a build centered around an overly effective and easy to use mechanic in a game. This typically involves a build being both highly effective at their task, very difficult to kill and with a low skill floor.

Your build examples are definitely in the cheese category. Ghost Thief is probably top of the list right now. Passive defensive builds in the DH and Warrior lines are cheese. Stealth stacking thieves, cheese. Condi Chrono, cheese.

Power Mesmer, not cheese. Most non-stealth Thieves, not cheese. Both classes require solid play to stay alive against a skilled opponent when they aren’t relying on high stealth uptime.

So what you’re basically saying is that everything is cheese if you can’t easily beat it. Gotcha.

XTR.9604:

So what you’re basically saying is that everything is cheese if you can’t easily beat it. Gotcha.

How did you get that from what I said? If a good player can make a build sing that doesn’t make it cheese that makes it meta. What often makes a build cheese is when a relatively bad player can make a particular build highly effective.

Also you condemned two entire roaming classes as cheese for being good at roaming. It is like saying every zerg Guardian is cheese because they are good at zerging. Not every thief or mesmer build is cheese just like every DH or Warrior build is not cheese. In my opinion there aren’t a lot of cheese builds and I can probably count them on one hand and certainly two.

If you wanna be pro try condi power shortbow longbow hybrid ranger.

Straegen.2938:

XTR.9604:

So what you’re basically saying is that everything is cheese if you can’t easily beat it. Gotcha.

How did you get that from what I said? If a good player can make a build sing that doesn’t make it cheese that makes it meta. What often makes a build cheese is when a relatively bad player can make a particular build highly effective.

Also you condemned two entire roaming classes as cheese for being good at roaming. It is like saying every zerg Guardian is cheese because they are good at zerging. Not every thief or mesmer build is cheese just like every DH or Warrior build is not cheese. In my opinion there aren’t a lot of cheese builds and I can probably count them on one hand and certainly two.

Thief and mesmer are by far the two cheesiest classes in the game lol. Denying that is silly. I don’t consider either of them to be good at roaming either. I frequently solo roam and lead a roaming guild that generally runs anywhere between 1 to 6 people. We never run thieves because they’re not actually good for roaming lol. We rarely run ever mesmers because there are much better classes to roam with, especially if we’re running a smaller group.

XTR.9604:

Thief and mesmer are by far the two cheesiest classes in the game lol. Denying that is silly.

No point arguing this since we fundamentally disagree. Cheese can exist in any class given the right circumstances.

XTR.9604:

I don’t consider either of them to be good at roaming either. I frequently solo roam and lead a roaming guild that generally runs anywhere between 1 to 6 people.

Thieves are probably the best solo roamers in the game. I cannot actually think of a better one. Fastest class particularly vertically and easily the slipperiest for avoiding massively outnumbered fights. Scouts and flips small objectives with the best of them. In skilled hands is formidable even outnumbered and resets fights better than any class. It really has no roaming downside.

Mesmers aren’t far behind in the solo roaming category. They lack the mobility of the thief but otherwise solid roamers.

Now if we are talking skirmish crews or havoc squads those are different modes of game play. Thieves don’t have much group synergy but Mesmers have solid group utility with group stealth, solid group heals, good AoE control and excellent burst. Couple a Power Mesmer with a tank Scrapper/Tempest makes for a very strong roaming combo.

Straegen.2938:

Thieves are probably the best solo roamers in the game. I cannot actually think of a better one. Fastest class particularly vertically and easily the slipperiest for avoiding massively outnumbered fights. Scouts and flips small objectives with the best of them. In skilled hands is formidable even outnumbered and resets fights better than any class. It really has no roaming downside.

The fact that anyone thinks thieves are good at roaming is baffling. Their ability to run away doesn’t make them good. All it does is run up, try to attack, realizes it does not deal damage to anyone with a brain, then runs away. There is nothing skilled about thief game play. I honestly do not remember the last time a thief was able to get me below half hp while I was roaming on my warrior, ele, or guardian before they either died or ran away.

Straegen.2938:

Mesmers aren’t far behind in the solo roaming category. They lack the mobility of the thief but otherwise solid roamers.

Condi mesmer works very well for solo roaming, but it is literally the most cheesy build in the entire game lol. The clone effect of the mesmer is cheesy by itself, but that is the opinion of myself.

XTR.9604:

The fact that anyone thinks thieves are good at roaming is baffling. Their ability to run away doesn’t make them good. All it does is run up, try to attack, realizes it does not deal damage to anyone with a brain, then runs away. There is nothing skilled about thief game play. I honestly do not remember the last time a thief was able to get me below half hp while I was roaming on my warrior, ele, or guardian before they either died or ran away.

Roaming is not dueling. Roaming does include fighting but also scouting, flipping objectives, running interference, etc. Thieves excel in flipping objectives, avoiding large groups and preying on zerglings and wounded players. They are also masters of slipping away as fights grow in size. What starts as a 1v1 often ends as a 3v1. Most classes cannot handle extra players being added on during a fight. In a straight up fight, thieves are middle of the pack when skill is equal between players. However a class cannot be ineffective and cheese. As I stated earlier a few defensive builds are every bit as cheesy as stealth stacking thieves.

Straegen.2938:

Condi mesmer works very well for solo roaming, but it is literally the most cheesy build in the entire game lol. The clone effect of the mesmer is cheesy by itself, but that is the opinion of myself.

Condi Mesmer is second to Ghost Thief but yes I agree both cheese. Power Mesmer is an entirely different animal and difficult to master which is why there aren’t a lot of great ones around. Once mastered, it is beating the snot out of players in duels.

Straegen.2938:

Roaming is not dueling. Roaming does include fighting but also scouting, flipping objectives, running interference, etc. Thieves excel in flipping objectives, avoiding large groups and preying on zerglings and wounded players. They are also masters of slipping away as fights grow in size. What starts as a 1v1 often ends as a 3v1. Most classes cannot handle extra players being added on during a fight. In a straight up fight, thieves are middle of the pack when skill is equal between players. However a class cannot be ineffective and cheese. As I stated earlier a few defensive builds are every bit as cheesy as stealth stacking thieves.

lol I’ve been roaming since I started playing this game. I know it is not dueling and I have many hours of me streaming on Twitch of me solo roaming and small group roaming. I get in to outnumbered fights and win them frequently on my warrior and have a lot of videos to show that lol. While roaming, I get in to all kinds of fights and even solo flip towers, camps, and sentries between fights. I’m not just talking here, I have video readily available to anyone who doesn’t believe what I am saying to go see lol..

Thieves don’t excel at anything except running away, dodging a lot, and killing bad players when it comes to roaming. Also, thieves don’t flip camps any faster than any other class. It would take a thief forever to solo a tower if they could do it, it doesn’t take much time for me to do that on my warrior, ele, or guardian solo.

I’m just saying, its false information to say that thief is the best roaming class, it is far from it. It is the best roaming class for people who want to run away from every fight that they couldn’t 2 shot someone in maybe lol.

It is very opinion based to say what the “best roaming class” is, but in my opinion, the best roaming class is Warrior. It is the best all around class for solo play due to its defense, damage, and decent mobility rather you play a power build or a condi build.

Before ANET nurfed air overload, the d/f ele was the best over-all roaming class.

Everyone who has ever thought thief or mesmer were the best roaming classes have still not experienced playing a good class with a good all around build roaming.

XTR.9604:

OP should define their idea of what cheese is.

To me, cheese is something that has a lot of access to stealth, mobility, and conditions. When I think cheese, I think the full pu condi mesmer, ghost thief, trap runaway ranger, etc.. Mostly mesmer and thief in general are cheese classes to play for most of the meta builds.

It’s basically any build with a lopsided skill input to achieve output ratio, something that has a very low skill threshold to but requires a specific strat and/or significantly higher skill threshold to counter.

I want to avoid them, not only because they make me feel dirty and are prime targets for nerfs, but because they also tend to have low skill ceilings as well. To take your example of stealth thieves, anyone who does not let themselves get sucked into chasing you and wasting powerful skills while you are still able to dodge and shadowstep suddenly becomes an extremely difficult target, especially if it’s a DH or Scrapper than can break you out of stealth, denying you that opportunity to avoid trouble. I guess if you count “winning” as not getting killed, they are one of the best, because very few people have the skill or build to kill you once you decide you don’t want to fight anymore. If winning actually means taking places and downing the enemy players that are nearby… I don’t think you can really call them the best at that.

Foefaller.1082:

I guess if you count “winning” as not getting killed, they are one of the best

Yeah, this is thief logic. If they didn’t die, they won lol… Guess they can just stealth up to someone, attack them once, then shortbow 5 in to Africa and win every fight while never killing anything lol..