Guild Wars 2

Yes you absolutely are entitled to your own opinion. But that does not mean that you’re correct. Thank you for keeping this conversation to a constructive and mature format.

Hard.9347:

Yes you absolutely are entitled to your own opinion. But that does not mean that you’re correct. Thank you for keeping this conversation to a constructive and mature format.

Nope I clearly stated that I could be incorrect.
Next time ill just come in and state that if you are complaining its just because you dont have enough skill…..thats both mature and constructive!

Yes you are entitled to your opinion. Which is why i am asking

What other skills do you think have this requirements like coordination, manpower, intel, resources and risks to be effective that you have to bash a skill that needs so much to be able to pull through?

And By having a ceiling of 5 people for the mesmer portal do you honestly think that anyone would be actually using them? Do you think that it wont render the skill useless? Do you think that such resources and risks not be rewarding in pulling a successful mesmer portal? Do you honestly think that players that are ported if are not skilled and/or undergeared can pull through being ported to another group with the skills/gears?

Mesmer Portals to move troops to enemy siege weapons: COOL
Mesmer Portals by hiding Mesmers to move troops into keeps/towers: COOL
Mesmer Portals to move troops (and the Mesmer) from the ground onto walls: NOT COOL
Mesmer Portals to trigger the ‘invisible players’ issue: NOT COOL

We’ve gotten to the point where people aren’t using Portal to make speedy attacks on nearby catapults or to retake a tower that wasn’t swept properly, but to completely bypass walls and intentionally Mass Invisibility enormous numbers of troops over and over so that the other servers have to fight a bunch of people they can’t see. It’s bad enough that in any large fight there are going to be some invisible guys, but usage of Mesmer Portaling to force this behavior instead of moving troops around is bordering on exploitation. Cue the cries of, “It’s a valid tactical strategy,” and “Everyone else is doing it, so we have to just to keep up.” Fantastic, but don’t pretend like it isn’t a bunch of crap either way. You can be a kittenhead while acknowledging the fact you’re a kittenhead.

Gorgewall
about the two COOL events you mentioned were exactly as how mesmer portals were supposed meant to be. The other two are just events not exactly isolated of mesmer portals but are not exactly the portal’s “Fault”

Well I dont think its as hard to pull off as you seem to think it is.

And yes a group of unskilled undergeard players will have a much better advantage if they are insta ported behind the enemy and due to lag get a couple seconds of invisibility.
One Mesmer can add a huge advantage to a unlimited amount of ppl. So even if your group dies after porting you still had a better advantage then if you tried to run out the front door or jump down from the walls to face the enemy head on. Or simple tried to actually manuever around and flank them on foot.

And no skills are supposed to be specific to WvW so the whole risk reward argument doesnt do much for me and is really what ppl are complaining about.
One profession has a single skill that everyone now has to form complete WvW tactics around. Thats why when you take a fort you have to spend 10 minutes searching for a Mesmer hiding in a wall otherwise he can just port in a group to gank the fort back bypassing the walls and defenses.

There is no way that I will convince you to change your mind and vice versa, so I’m not gonna argue about it anymore. I just think that since Anet stated that they wanted to eliminate the “holy trinity” so there arent any “essential” professions that to have one that has such a powerful and useful skill is completely opposite of that.

It doesnt matter how hard or easy the skill is to pull off.

….thts what she said!

This thread is nonsense. Do people even realize how short the range is on the portals? You’re not taking 50 people from your keep to a supply camp instantly.. you’re moving people from one side to the other if you’re lucky. Good for quick escapes and surprise attacks by coordinated groups, and available to everyone. Hardly overpowered in any sense of the word.

Celeras.4980:

This thread is nonsense. Do people even realize how short the range is on the portals? You’re not taking 50 people from your keep to a supply camp instantly.. you’re moving people from one side to the other if you’re lucky. Good for quick escapes and surprise attacks by coordinated groups, and available to everyone. Hardly overpowered in any sense of the word.

Any one skill that can affect 50+ ppl seems OP to me.

-And yes a group of unskilled undergeard players will have a much better advantage if they are insta ported behind the enemy and due to lag get a couple seconds of invisibility.

That my friend is an assumption. And due to lag get a couple of seconds of invisibility is not directly related to the Mesmer Portal. That portal is not meant to cause the lag and ever since i have not seen any lag other than the Culling issues that the game is having right now. That is a matter of the server not the skill.

-Well I dont think its as hard to pull off as you seem to think it is.

I have yet to see a zerg pull a successful one. They either just run pass the portals or confused using the portal landing to an unfamiliar place they were at and get destroyed. I have seen guilds (and organized ones at that) fail it many times due to inconsistencies such as a lone person attacking/killing the mesmer, Misjudging the distance, Misjudging the Defence/Offense of the enemies.

-One Mesmer can add a huge advantage to a unlimited amount of ppl.

As i have stated beforehand those people HAVE TO BE NEAR and they HAVE TO BE PRESENT there. Meaning they already are there before the portal drops because they only have 10 Seconds of window to get there.

-So even if your group dies after porting you still had a better advantage then if you tried to run out the front door or jump down from the walls to face the enemy head on. Or simple tried to actually manuever around and flank them on foot.

Question. Have you actually tried this? I mean porting will leave a Circle on the ground which means they know exactly where you will be heading in the next couple of seconds. Porting in the middle of more than similar number of people or at any place with the number of people would be suicide. Im surprised you are calling it an advantage honestly.

-And no skills are supposed to be specific to WvW so the whole risk reward argument doesnt do much for me and is really what ppl are complaining about.

And why is the specificness to world vs world an issue now?

-One profession has a single skill that everyone now has to form complete WvW tactics around. Thats why when you take a fort you have to spend 10 minutes searching for a Mesmer hiding in a wall otherwise he can just port in a group to gank the fort back bypassing the walls and defenses.

By the way. Each of the profession has mostly purpose like for a Warrior is to Direct Damage/Support/AOE, Assassins to assassinate single lone targets or Guardians to soak damage / support. And just happens that mesmers portals are meant to be surprises. By the way guardians have skills that reflect / nullify / block damage and you need tactics for it to. So does the Spins of Thieves. So does the Rage GS warrior who can destroy 10+ people in 2 seconds. Mesmer portal do nothing of that sort, it just adds an element of surprise to an preempted attack.

-I just think that since Anet stated that they wanted to eliminate the “holy trinity” so there arent any “essential” professions that to have one that has such a powerful and useful skill is completely opposite of that.

like i have already stated, and will do again. Mesmer Portal are useless unless what you are porting are actually of value. That means if you port 10 people who are level 1 and unskilled you will get absolutely nothing of it except for a distraction which means that the value is actually what you are porting in which is the other classes that actually do something.

I wish my ranger could shoot 20 level 80s into a keep, tower, or zerg!! Now that is one aoe spell!

Nerf Portals now. It is totally changing great defense into a joke.

All it takes is one commander to stand on the port location and say in map chat: gather on me and click. Zerg commanders will always have a ton of players near them so that is super easy to do. Then you can insto port 50+ players with ONE mesmer. If that’s not totally OP, not sure what is.

And the best part about all this is that with the invisible bug lovingly introduced last patch; the opposing team can’t even counter it since we don’t even see the mesmer, the port, nor the zerg that went through it.

just answered my assumptions with more assumptions.

I agree with you 100% about that tactic of the portal and thats not my problem. Its that there is no limit.

I still see no reason that this skill shouldnt be limited to 5-10 ppl.
If you can portal and unlimited amount of ppl than you should also be able to AOE an unlimited amount of people.

Crispeh
and i see no reason to portal 5 people to 10 people just the same.

Fixit
Do you know how short that mesmer portal range is? you better start running than waiting to form 50+ people which will take you 10x more time.

Wildman
Please read my posts first because i think i have answered that directly or indirectly in there

Vayra.3290:

Yukishiro.8792:

No, portal is not fine. Portal is a “bring the class” skill. No other class has anything remotely like it. GW2 isn’t supposed to be a “bring the class” game.

Line of Warding.

Guardians obviously come the closest to mesmers in terms of being another “bring the class” class. But even line of warding isn’t really a bring the class skill. And even if it is “bring the class” the solution to that is to fix that ability.

“Bring the class” is against the GW2 design philosophy. We need to end all instances of it, not defend one based on the alleged presence of another.

Its a tactic, you either adapt to it or you don’t. As a tactic it has counters, such as sweeping your captured objectives for Mesmers.

The advantage of using such tactics can be huge, no doubt about it. But the same can be said for alliances using voice comms to organise attacks. The smart teams use the best tactics, the weak teams run and complain about how unfair it all is.

The rendering and wall glitching are not portal problems and I bet that once they are resolved then all this complaining will be shown for what it truly is.

Yukishiro.8792:

Vayra.3290:

Yukishiro.8792:

No, portal is not fine. Portal is a “bring the class” skill. No other class has anything remotely like it. GW2 isn’t supposed to be a “bring the class” game.

Line of Warding.

Guardians obviously come the closest to mesmers in terms of being another “bring the class” class. But even line of warding isn’t really a bring the class skill. And even if it is “bring the class” the solution to that is to fix that ability.

“Bring the class” is against the GW2 design philosophy. We need to end all instances of it, not defend one based on the alleged presence of another.

There needs to be distinguishing aspects of each class, otherwise we might as well all be playing 1 class. There will naturally be some areas where 1 class excels, in this case mesmers for surprise attacks and guardians for point defense. Warriors have really strong short range aoe burst, eles have ranged aoe that can hit on top of walls, thieves can take out unsuspecting stragglers near instantly etc. Each class has (or should have) one area they are best at, in the case of the Mesmer this is portals and quick troop movement.

Does this make it OP and a must-have? No. You can do well without a mesmer, and you can do absolutely horrible with one, it all depends on what OTHER classes you have present. If you have no guardians you will lack defense, if you have no eles/engies/warriors etc you will most likely lack damage. You need a balanced group with most if not all classes represented. Stacking one class might make you strong in one area, but it will kitten you in another, which is exactly how it’s supposed to be.

What other skills do you think have this requirements like coordination, manpower, intel, resources and risks to be effective that you have to bash a skill that needs so much to be able to pull through?

Come on, it’s not rocket science. It’s easy and takes maybe 5-15 seconds to organize it. And mesmers can stealth and blink, so enemies don’t see them coming.

Portal tacic is superior to any other tactic, that’s why there is no need to use any other tactic (splitting, flanking, using siegeweapons, etc.). That is really poor game design.

Sure, everybody can use it and we use it too, but it’s just boring and really not fun when most fights are over in seconds.

“Rangers spot every enemy they see on the minimap”

Can someone explain this to me? Since when do rangers see enemies on the minimap?

There are multiple AOE abilities which effect more than 5 players (EL Fire Staff 5 being the most obvious one).

I play a mesmer, and I play(ed) in WvWvW. I was often asked to remain in towers and keeps specifically for the purposes of creating a portal, should that fortification be retaken. Sometimes it worked. More often, I’d be seen during a sweep, and forced to abandon my post.

The problem isn’t that Portal affects an essentially unlimited number of people, because mesmers (and other classes) have other skills that affect more than five people. Have you ever seen a guardian lay down the circle that bestows swiftness? In the right situation, it can give everyone in a zerg swiftness. The same thing happens with Temporal Curtain, and Veil. They’re short duration skills that benefit everyone crossing them. I’m sure there are others, but I’m not as familiar with other classes yet.

The real problem is the very low limit on other aoe skills. What good does it do to randomly hit five enemies when there are more than thirty at the gate, or coming through a portal? The system increasingly benefits increasingly larger zergs. I’ve seen tower gates go from full to broken in less than a minute under the assault of some larger zergs. If they want in, they’re getting in, portal or not.

Personally, I don’t like being the mesmer left behind after a fortification is taken. I’d rather be in the thick of things, or building up defenses elsewhere instead of merely waiting for the enemy to take a post that my team most likely couldn’t be bothered to defend. At most, a mesmer can reach up to 15 seconds of stealth, using an elite and two utility skills, one of which leaves a very visible line on the ground, indicating someone is there.

All that being said, if a team can’t be bothered to do a quick sweep, or even maintain a taken post, why should I be punished for it? At most, a small group can sweep the larger keeps in about a minute, two tops. There aren’t even that many places to hide. If you do happen to find mesmers in your fort, chances are good they’ve got stealth skills equipped, along with Portal, so they’re less likely to have the better defensive skills on hand.

Tyrr.3841:

Fixit
Do you know how short that mesmer portal range is? you better start running than waiting to form 50+ people which will take you 10x more time.

Did it with a total pug last week, ported around 100 people right into SM with ONE mesmer. Infact we had to do it 3 times since we kept getting wiped in the lords room. No teamspeak either. Commander said in map chat: follow me and click on the glowy thing on the ground. Easy sauce.

edit. as an ele, all my skills and boons will only target 5 things max. Nothing goes over that limit. So if mesmers can have unlimited targets, can I have that too?

Can’t quote for some reason Vayra but your example of the guardian shows why it isn’t the same. Guardians arn’t the only class that can sit on a point effectively. Engis, eles, necros and even warriors can also be effective point defenders. This is true of every other example you mentioned too. Are guardians more effective than those other classes? Maybe marginally. But that’s something that can be balanced by adjusting numbers.

Mesmer portal is just different. If you want to move a large number of people over distance at once you have to have a mesmer. There is no other option. It’s Mesmer or don’t even try the tactic because no other class can do it. You can’t balance it because no one else is even in the game.

“Bring the class” isn’t GW2. If you want a bring the class game there are plenty of them on the market but that isn’t supposed to be what GW2 is.

Since this topic seems to be popping out from time to time, I kinda want to add this to the annoyance of the people and do some shameless advertising about portals and their viable tactics, please note that all this was done before the rendering issues really became a trouble, and also note that even if they would’ve been the problem, not in these situations because most of the time the enemy knew where this specific group was coming from or going to.

You can be a lamer with the portals, but it is a very viable tactic to use for fun and against overwhelming odds if you know what you are doing (atleast if the rendering gets fixed ever again).

Also, if you break this skill, you will make a lot of people very very very unhappy. I guess that’s my 2 cents.

There are some rumors saying that they’re working on it. Probably portals will get limited to 5 players in one of the next patches to bring mesmers in line.

I hope they do something. I have seen videos of mesmers using fly hacks and proceed to bring the rest of their team inside the bay etc in wvw. This is the only reason I dislike the skill.

Venox.1053:

I hope they do something. I have seen videos of mesmers using fly hacks and proceed to bring the rest of their team inside the bay etc in wvw. This is the only reason I dislike the skill.

I think the point a lot of people are trying to make here is that the hacks are definitely, unequivocably bad, but the solution to them is not to totally nerf a really cool skill just because it can benefit from the hacks.

The solution is to fix the hacks, and ban the hackers.

No the solution is to bring back in line a skil that outshines every other skill in WvW, not to mention it isn’t even an Elite!

Get a mesmer through the jumping puzzle. Get your entire team free honor badges, blueprints and gear. Sounds fair, right? They can just teleport people up to the top of the bridge, cutting off literally 90% of the maze and another mesmer can cut off the other 10%.

Teleport has no place in WvW. Infact devs have even debated if it has a place in sPvP.

Its a very cool ability. But even if the rendering bugs were fixed, and people didnt abuse cheats to bypass defenses. There is still room to abuse Teleport.

SM castle is a prime example. Its very easy for 2 mesmers to hide if they lose the castle, that place is huge and mesmers are kitten near uncatchable.
SM is also dead in the centre of the map, and quickly under attack. If you take SM be prepared to be in the breach to defend it. There is no time to run all over SM trying to purge all possible Mesmers. Again, those guys are very hard to catch.

Then these 2 mesmers can completely and easily portal their whole server right into the Lords room. From outer wall to Lord in less then 30sec with a full zerg. Bypassing ALL defenses.

And even Keeps can be a pain to clear all Mesmers. Takes just 1 to mess up your day. Name one profession that can do something of a magnitude like this.

i find it funny that most those calling for the portal to be fixed/scaled down are those who also used them. ive seen tons of it used. good at timeing but it is a tactic.

but i agree the invisible stuff gotta go. people use teleport/rendering issues to gain advantage to much. ive seen tons of people useing that in the form of teleports to get glitchs.

btw i have seen sor or the other server verus yaks bend use these tons of time this week. so why are u so hell bent to call it op when u do use it 30-50% of the time to avoid real challenge battles? i have seen db/sh taken with no walls dmg anywhere and only the lord room in danger. obvoisly u guys in sor or the other server northern peaks do not have an issue when u use this tactic.

ive chased down people who use teleport stuff just to run when there about to die and easily get out of deaths becuase of that or the glitch. it is an issue . but apprently its only a major one when u lose to it>< funny how that is isnt it?

The skill itself doesn’t seem to be the problem. There’s a very natural counter to it – you see a mesmer, kill the mesmer. I suspect the portal utility was anticipated and so was mesmer targeting. The balance to that is mesmer clones.

The problem does truly seem to be the skill use in conjunction with the bugs currently plaguing WvW. The skill isn’t an AOE like every other one that should be capped at 5 people. It’s a small portal, time restricted and based on the mesmer’s location. Recall that the portal entry and exit only appear where the mesmer is standing. Without the invisible people or flying hacks, this issue almost ceases to exist.

If you’re going to ask for something as bonkers as a 5 person cap, then I think it should use a targeting reticule and work on any surface like Portal.

Mesmers are generally not too durable (yes, there are builds that emphasize durability, but generally speaking). That’s balanced by some stealth ability and movement related utility (blink and portal). The penalty for not finding and killing them is exactly what’s been described. Again – talking about the uses without all the nasty bugs in place.

Keep in mind that calling for nerfs on abilities that permit emergent gameplay is a slippery slope my friends unless you’re looking for an experience entirely on rails.

Portals are valid. Just stop be lazy, and check the keeps before you leave em.

aphoxi.4378:

The skill itself doesn’t seem to be the problem. There’s a very natural counter to it – you see a mesmer, kill the mesmer. I suspect the portal utility was anticipated and so was mesmer targeting. The balance to that is mesmer clones.

The problem does truly seem to be the skill use in conjunction with the bugs currently plaguing WvW. The skill isn’t an AOE like every other one that should be capped at 5 people. It’s a small portal, time restricted and based on the mesmer’s location. Recall that the portal entry and exit only appear where the mesmer is standing. Without the invisible people or flying hacks, this issue almost ceases to exist.

If you’re going to ask for something as bonkers as a 5 person cap, then I think it should use a targeting reticule and work on any surface like Portal.

Mesmers are generally not too durable (yes, there are builds that emphasize durability, but generally speaking). That’s balanced by some stealth ability and movement related utility (blink and portal). The penalty for not finding and killing them is exactly what’s been described. Again – talking about the uses without all the nasty bugs in place.

Keep in mind that calling for nerfs on abilities that permit emergent gameplay is a slippery slope my friends unless you’re looking for an experience entirely on rails.

i do believe he is on to something^^.
i never agree with them calling for nerfs. becuase in all honesty if u want to nerf portal ud have to nerf all the cloak/port/invisible/clone skills to balance. as i stated before ive fought people who were dead to rights gonna die even in downed state and were able to jsut port away,revive themselves some how even with me and 3 clones on it dpsing.

i rember jsut i think it was 2 days ago in yaks bend around db i chased some one all the way to the bottom right camp. as i watched the whole time they were porting futher and faster away with what looked like no cool down or wait between there ports. i think this should be looked into more then portals. cuase not only that they used that stuff in engagements where they are in the thick front lines at the garrison then within secs there porting away out of it at one of the forts.

i admit my mesmer small teleport from clone skills might of seemed op at first. then i got into wvw and seen theifs/other class’s doing way more then jsut this.

Try this – every person that uses the portal subtracts 1 second from the time it stays deployed

Mesmer was designed to use Deception and Cunning to overcome foes. They use stealth, misdirection and trickery to complete objectives.

If all you want is having Two Brutes bash each other over the head in toe to toe fashion, it saddens me think what you feel is fair.

Where in reality, this mentality truly shows how narrow minded you are. A good defender knows his surrounding and guards against every possible attack. Because you complain about the Portals, it goes to show how much you really pay attention.

Defend your targets. Upgrade your walls and doors.

Having a breach in defense is already a contributing factor of loss of position. However, often a strong team can still defend and hold off the assault.

Allowing the Mesmer inside is the defender’s fault.

Rendering or not… you should know by now to have people at key points where the Mesmers can get to and stop it from happening.

Killing the Mesmer kills the portal, don’t let him escape to open the entry for the zerg.

I play a memser and I feel that Siege equptment should not be allowed through the portal. and the other skills that only work for 5 players are not “Click F to Activate” the rendering is pretty bad also.

The most reasoned, and least insulting, arguments from the portal supporters have 99% convinced me. If I ever figure out exactly how the profession works, I might even become 100% convinced.

Sorry all of you screaming its not OP, very wrong. It’s the end all be all of game changers. You play a mesmer so you like the idea of having a skill that outweighs any other skill ten fold. It needs to go away or have limits applied.

Search the keep/sm for mesmers kill him. It’s as easy as that, it is your fault if you let him portal from inside like that. The skill sucks tbh and has a very limited use, I can almost guarantee you no mesmer plays full time with the portal other than when he plays hide and seek, it adds something extra to the game, “clear the keep for mesmers search for mesmers”.

Yes I play a mesmer and no I don’t have portal on my bar except for on very rare occasions portal does almost nothing for me during battle and isn’t worth having on.

It’s only a game changer when you literally let them do it. If it were to get a limited player nerf that skill would not really be worth a kitten at all except for having ONE use in spvp.

First, none says that the skill has to go completely, it just has to get a limit of people that can use it. That will not make it imbalanced, because there is no other skill like it, that compares with it’s power. But to port the whole server and only for even that “short” distance isn’t OP for you?

It will not ruin the whole mesmer hides inside a keep stuff. For me that is a legit tactic, you have to keep the keep clean after taking it over. And for the attacker, you just need more mesmer and organisation to get the whole server inside the keep within a second.

It will not ruin the supply-runs. They will still work, probably a second mesmer is needed but who cares.

Are you scared about a bit more organisation to use that powerful skill?

Issues like this is why I suspect that guild wars 2 was not really designed for wvw play in the first place. The invisible players bug gets even more absurd with the addition of a skill like mesmer’s portal. This game often becomes blind man’s bluff in wvw.

“Are you scared about a bit more organisation to use that powerful skill?”

Two or three mesmers hiding to bring in a small group of people with limited nerfed portals will never happen, not even once. You already have to use organization to get people to the portal location within a small time window before the single mesmer is found needing to have three or four would never happen or be a valid strategy, at all.

It is enough to hide one inside, the first who use the portal need to be 5 more mesmer and you have 25 people inside within no time. I mean you bypass the defense, that should not be a thing of one guy, who achieves this, that needs teamwork. Not to destroy the gate/wall is a huge advantage.

If you get to manage that you have my respect, but not one guy, hiding inside a huge castle, who can bring the whole server bypassing the defense with one skill.

With this change you will be still able to bring a small squad to flank the enemy, etc. It will still have tactical effects. And it will hopefully reduce the Zerg a bit and builds some smaller specialized squads and a real WvW not ZvZ.

One nice side-effect, it will reduce the problem of invisibly a bit, because there will be less people who port so less skins to load.

By the way, I don’t have a problem with 8(sPvP) or 10 people to use one portal, but not everyone at the same time, that is just ridiculous.

Step 1 Teleport only work for your group.
Step 2 Fix so it dont work over walls on Keeps/Towers.

Shadow.3475:

Step 1 Teleport only work for your group.
Step 2 Fix so it dont work over walls on Keeps/Towers.

Can you all pls stop writing about porting into keeps? In an interview the developers said, it is designed to backdoor keeps, if you didnt search for mesmers.

A portal should only do 5 people – problem solved.

At the moment its very lame and sucky. Dying before you even see why isnt very fun. A net should fix this asap…