Guild Wars 2

This thread is about how mesmers have to large of an impact on wvwvw and how to balance them down to at least near the usefullness of everyone else

Now I understand that every profession has it’s own ways of being usefull in wvwvw but when it comes to mesmers they just about have it all and that makes other professions seem less important (mainly because that’s exactly what they are)

There is a reason you see commanders/pvp guilds/ organized zergs constantly ask “how many mesmers do we have?” Over and over. It’s because in order for a group to be as good as they possibly can you need mesmers, no questions asked you NEED more than at least 5 mesmers it is mandatory. This is a problem, but who can blame them mesmer is obviously the flavor of the month as far as group pvp goes and in most cases people see them as the best dueling class as well (also a problem)

~~Why are mesmers so important in wvwvw?~~

Well let’s see
-group mesmer mind wrack stacking will kill off a large group of players before they can blink an eye

-LOS ignoring pulls. Doesn’t matter if they can’t see you on top of a wall, if they want you down than you’re coming down. (imagine if death knights grip ability could do that in WoW? Yeah that’s a problem, except mesmers pull more than 1 person.)

-LOS ignoring zerkers/clones, In many cases mesmers can take out siege you can’t see with ease and not only that but these do such high damage it’s very likely the siege user is also in risk of being killed, it can be in a place where you think “no one can possibly reach it here” but oh wait it’s very likely mesmers can.

-Portals, having mesmers chain their portals from one location to another makes transporting an army of golems easy, everyone wants to make sure there are at least 3 mesmers around before using golems. Also better make sure there isn’t one hiding in a keep/tower/smc when you cap it….

-Aoe invisibility, do i even need to say how this is usefull?

-Time warp and last but not least let’s not forget aoe quickness which when used with golems it greatly increases the amount of damage they do to a gate in a short amount of time.

~~What can be done to balance this problem?~~

I think their zerkers and that aoe pull should only work on the surface they are standing on. You should not be able to look up 40 yards and just yank someone off a wall that you couldn’t even see that’s ridiculous and why is it’s cooldown so short? You would think pulling more than 1 person into a zerg for certain death would have 1 min cd minimum.

Honestly keep the time warp, keep the portals and keep the barely bearable aoes that’s more than enough to still make mesmers a very important part of wvwvw groups.

I have never played a Mesmer, but Mesmer portal I have to say are one thing I dont want nerfed. I am glad you didn’t call nerf on that skill.. They make gameplay exciting, portal bombs are extremely fun, especially if you are outnumbered. Sweeping for them in a keep is no big deal for those on my team. And if we don’t sweep well enough shame on us.

The rest well that is up for the next posters, but I just wanted my 2 cents in as a person that doesn’t play one but still loves what they can do for my team.

Berserkers and clones require line of sight, that’s already been nerfed.
Time warp, Mass invis, 5 friendlies max get affected.
The pull only pulls towards the line, not to the mesmer. Any little bump in the way will stop a pulled person, and it’s short ranged. We have to run into the line of fire to use it.

Now go roll a mesmer and learn how ill informed you are on the profession. You’ll still have fun and you’ll learn something along the way… it’s a win-win!

I have a 80 mesmer/necro/ele/gurdian

I dont thnk the mesmer is as useful as you think in WvW, my mesmer is my favorite but I normally play my ele or necro because I feel they are more useful to the group.

As far as MW even with 5+ mesmers throwing clones at you a few aoeswill kill them fast, they have very low HP. Its pretty rare that I can get all 3 to hit anyone from range. The best way it to roll in and hit MW but then you are in the middle of the zerg and in great danger.

VOLKON.1290:

Time warp, Mass invis, 5 friendlies max get affected.

Mass Invis affects more than 5, have seen it cloak 9, never tried more.

Neandramathal.9536:

VOLKON.1290:

Time warp, Mass invis, 5 friendlies max get affected.

Mass Invis affects more than 5, have seen it cloak 9, never tried more.

I’ve used it in crowds, only 5 get the invis.

I play a mesmer (but I’m not very skilled) and I don’t think they are mandatory. I see mesmers get called to do golem duty, but if they’re not organized it hardly makes a difference. Portals are sometimes outside of the range or the golems walk right over one. If we are rapidly losing a keep people yell out for the mesmers to hide, but I’ve only successfully hidden once(they didn’t sweep at all) and we still didn’t get the keep back.

With the pull, the range is pretty short and people are more careful to stay away from the edge. The time warp and mass invis has a pretty low limit. So while mesmers can be very helpful I don’t think they are mandatory.

VOLKON.1290:

Neandramathal.9536:

VOLKON.1290:

Time warp, Mass invis, 5 friendlies max get affected.

Mass Invis affects more than 5, have seen it cloak 9, never tried more.

I’ve used it in crowds, only 5 get the invis.

We used it last night and it invised way more than 5.

Mass Invisibility affects a maximum of 10 allies, including yourself.

This is from the wiki

VOLKON.1290:

Neandramathal.9536:

VOLKON.1290:

Time warp, Mass invis, 5 friendlies max get affected.

Mass Invis affects more than 5, have seen it cloak 9, never tried more.

I’ve used it in crowds, only 5 get the invis.

i tried it at siegebreaker once and it cloaked all 10 of us, think that is also the limit.
but it has a 90s cooldown and takes almost 2s to cast, easily interrupted

Mass Invis only affects 5 people, is an elite skill with a 3 sec cast-time on a long cooldown. Maybe you are thinking of Veil?
Time Warp only affects 5 people.
Mesmer’s aren’t the only class that can ‘pull’ people. Changing this ability would break the weapon (Focus) as this ability does more than just pull people.
Mesmer’s iBerserker requires LoS and more than often won’t spawn on walls and puts the ability on cooldown.
Mesmer’s are considered one of the worst classes for sieging due to lack of AoE to hit siege or players on walls.
Portal has been nerfed like 4+ times already.

Xavi.6591:

Mass Invis only affects 5 people, is an elite skill with a 3 sec cast-time on a long cooldown. Maybe you are thinking of Veil?
Time Warp only affects 5 people.
Mesmer’s aren’t the only class that can ‘pull’ people. Changing this ability would break the weapon (Focus) as this ability does more than just pull people.
Mesmer’s iBerserker requires LoS and more than often won’t spawn on walls and puts the ability on cooldown.
Mesmer’s are considered one of the worst classes for sieging due to lack of AoE to hit siege or players on walls.
Portal has been nerfed like 4+ times already.

It efefcts 11

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mass_Invisibility

Well I play a Mes and I am calling for a nerf to Portal.

Only to the fact that it can work through walls or otherwise inaccessable locations. Having to search for Mesmers in a keep is laaaaammmmmeeee. Sure its not hard, its just not fun.

And having Portals work through closed walls is stupid, it just doesn’t make sense that people should be able to port somewhere that they can’t get to naturally. No other skill in the game works like that.

I stand corrected as I thought it was changed a while back. MI affects 10 players.

Xavi.6591:

I stand corrected as I thought it was changed a while back. MI affects 10 players.

The confusion is understandable as all aoe was nerfed to 5. It just happens that we were practicing mass invis stacking last night and I was able to see it working on more than 5.

Thanks for everyones feedback I’m actually learning some things here but to clarify. I’m not calling mesmers indestructable monsters, I am saying they have to many tools at their disposal that contribute greatly.

I think thief should have the unlimited target mass stealth. Everything else is fine. Portal has been nerfed multiple times, time warp has a 5 target cap, feedback is a shorter duration than guardian’s wall of reflection, we bring little boons to a party, and focus pull is sketchy at best.

I think guardian, ele, and necro bring far more to the table than mesmer if they’re spec’d correctly. That’s not to say you don’t need mesmers…. portal is far too useful if you’re coordinated with it. In a random pug zerg, maybe they don’t ask how many support necros, or aura share eles there are. In ours we do… and we take a bit further with hammer warriors, guardians, and thieves.

Stability is required for anyone worth a kitten Should we nerf guardians?
CC is required for anyone worth a kitten Should we nerf warriors?
Healing is required for anyone worth a kitten Should we nerf eles, necros, and thieves(blast finisher on demand)? Just because you don’t see bads using the other utility doesn’t mean it’s less important.

If anything I’d bring rangers and engineers up to balance it out a bit more, but the other 5 classes are fine.

Senjun.8149:

Thanks for everyones feedback I’m actually learning some things here but to clarify. I’m not calling mesmers indestructable monsters, I am saying they have to many tools at their disposal that contribute greatly.

I think personally that they are on track with other classes. I do feel more useful as an ele or necro and warriors are indespensable, guardians are good for buffs/healing. Thieves are great for camp capping sqauds. Unfortunately rangers and engineers are defenitely lacking in WvW, but are still useful.

There is no question it is nice to have a few mesmers in your group but I don’t feel it’s neccesary. We do run with 4 to 5 usually by thats by default as some ppl really like to use thier mesmers in WvW.

Everyone is useful in WvW cause all you do is follow the Zerg around.

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Everyone is useful in WvW cause all you do is follow the Zerg around.

Yes everyone is useful

No you do not just follow the zerg around

We routinely run small groups of 10 or less to do nothing but defend and cap camps or poke doors and be generally annoying.

Yeah mesmer has a lot of usefulness. So do many other professions..I don’t get it. The era of portal bombs is pretty much over considering everyone now realizes heavy AoE will destroy them. Time wrap is cool, but on a huge cooldown. Mass invis is nice. Mesmers can’t pull you if you stand in the center or behind the ledge I believe. I don’t believe you can izerk siege other than cannons/oil anymore since there is no LOS most of time on siege placement.

- Anet already said they were thinking of giving another class portal. Although I don’t like the give it to all classes to make things balanced philosophy, I do understand why they have that idea given the use of portal in WvW. Plus it could help buff another class like engineer.
- The comment about mind wrack is just silly, clones die fast in raids, it is very obvious and easy to dodge, it doesn’t work in a siege, and has a small area of effect. Other classes bring much larger and stronger AOE’s than mind wrack to a raid (esp. necro, ele and engineer).
- The pull is easy to dodge and wont pull you past a lip. If the LOS wasn’t so weird for towers, other pulls would be improved, although curtain will still have the advantage of multiple pulls.

As people said above, a mesmer is very useful, but so are well speced guardians, warriors, elementalists, necros and thieves. Rangers and engineers need a slight buff but even they have their uses in WvW.

Mesmers are only usefull for Culling Abuse, Golem Transport, and knocking people off the JP.

’nuff said…

Big guilds might ask for (or mandate) 1 or 2 mesmers from their own guilds OP, but I’ve never seen 5. Methinks you are exaggerating for effect.

have 5 rangers all stagger entangling vines in a group fight. I bet if people don’t expect it they will all get murdered…. See what I did there? Found new ways to find OP things that people don’t expect, round up 5 rifle warriors and all abuse piercing shots + kills hot. That’s OP Too!

Every class has different uses. Portal utilizes manipulation, something the mesmer specializes in, but they also are great at clones, confusion, and granting boons such as chaos armor to allies. Warriors and Guardians heal/support/cc/tank far better, necros dish out crazy conditions are are higly survivable, eles are the kings of aoe and support incredibly, Rangers are still useful as trappers or glass Longbow, Thieves work great as gank squads and harassment groups to interrupt supply lines, engis can dish out good aoe and support well. Right there, every single class has a valuable use in WvW. The sooner people adapt to that instead of singularly focusing on one profession, the sooner a force will realize their full potential and be capable of responding to any situation. Balance is the most important thing.

5 seconds of stealth on a 90 second cooldown is pretty pathetic compared to what thieves are capable of.

Arenanet has said they do not want to take away such a powerful skill from the Mesmers. Frankly, I agree. They instead want to rework other professions to be able to make a similar impact on the WvW scene.

Are Guardians mandatory for group condition removal and/or bubble-blocking chokepoints?
Are stealth-oriented Thieves mandatory for supply-line ganking and scouting?
Are condition Necros mandatory for mass condition application and area denial? (especially of portal bomb exits… can’t count how many times Well of Corruption has exploded incoming portal zergs, lol)
Are staff Eles mandatory for destroying siege out of line-of-sight with Meteor Shower?

I could go on. All professions traited for special skills, or using certain skill sets are very useful and powerful. I don’t even run with Portal on the skill bar, with my Berserker Shatter Mesmer. No one seems to mind, because teams are almost always large and diverse enough that somebody is set up for some sort of powerful utility.

Oh and clone-spawning skills don’t ignore LoS. You, or your seige were in LoS when they ability was cast.

Gisei.5749:

Arenanet has said they do not want to take away such a powerful skill from the Mesmers. Frankly, I agree. They instead want to rework other professions to be able to make a similar impact on the WvW scene.

On the other hand they did want to take away reflecting siege projectiles from guardians. Perhaps when they rework up guardian skills to match mesmers they also restore the reflecting.

I just wonder what kind of skills are on the horizon. The bar is set really high with mesmer. WvW will not be recognizable when the other seven professions receive their potent skills.

I agree. I can’t even tell you how many times I have heard our commander asking how many mesmers we have. Mesmers are by far the most important class in WvW.

It takes mesmers a lot more thinking/movement/effort to kill someone than it takes any other class. Mesmers have to work harder for kills than most classes do. But what they lack in roflstomp insta-kills, they make up for in group utilities.

stereoblind.4736:

It takes mesmers a lot more thinking/movement/effort to kill someone than it takes any other class. Mesmers have to work harder for kills than most classes do. But what they lack in roflstomp insta-kills, they make up for in group utilities.

Mesmers who want insta kills camp the JP… I heard they also feed on tears…

Edited…I swear I thought the max was five…

Can a mod please merge this thread with the other old class QQ threads that no one cares about? Getting me all excited thinking there was something new here..

stereoblind.4736:

It takes mesmers a lot more thinking/movement/effort to kill someone than it takes any other class. Mesmers have to work harder for kills than most classes do. But what they lack in roflstomp insta-kills, they make up for in group utilities.

mesmers are one of the easier roflstomp insta-kill classes.

just spec for it, and dont be bad.

Mesmers are a must have for any guild to move up from mindless zerging. Viels and Portals are a must have which easily makes Mesmer a must have. They’re also a must have for sPvP.

Playing a Mesmer in WvW, I’d happily accept a nerf to Veil if it came with a massive nerf to Thief in-combat Stealth abilities.

I hope my Portal ability gets shared with Engineers as I’d love to see them more valued.

All the other things have already been addressed by previous posters and really aren’t an issue.

Ele is mandatory in WvW, nerf?

also almost all of your points in the OP are factually incorrect, but okay.

I would almost argue that Elementalists are more necessary in WvW, not only do they have some of the best, if not the absolute best ranged AoE in the game, and excellent healing and survival potential that makes them indispensible in small groups, but they posess the extremely useful skill “Swirling Winds” (Focus #4 on air) which allows us to block trebuchet shots and catapult shots, and drastically improve the longevity of a wall or gate.

I play elementalist as my main, and i am constantly called upon to help shield walls from enemy siege, as well as just generally being useful in any type of encounter, from solo D/D bouts to flinging fireballs and calling down meteor showers during zerg battles.

Like many have said though, this is no reason at all to nerf the class, in fact, i think that there are some parts of the elementalist that could be buffed to make more playstyles viable. What i really want is for other classes, namely rangers and Engineers, to gain the type of utility and versatility that makes the elementalist and mesmer so special. No doubt warriors, thieves, guardians and necros have incredibly useful combat abilities, but those two unfortunate adventurer classes are generally considered second rate in the current WvW meta, most of my guild mates who previously played a ranger or engineer have made alts that they use in WvW.

More on topic though, i think mesmers are in a good place as far as WvW utility, Veil is very prevalent in the current T1 meta, but Portals, although useful against an unorganized group in open field, largely result in a party wipe against groups with proper communication and response time. Also, mesmer plants in WvW objectives are generally far less common as far as i can tell, because people have discovered and memorized the best hiding spots in every single objective. Mass invis is a nonissue, as it only affects 5 people, and like many have said, mesmer phantasms have been nerfed to remove that particular capability. Time warp is incredibly useful with golems, but is pretty much a nonissue elsewhere.

Remove the whole mesmer class from the game.
Problem solved.

cry me a river, don’t all servers have access to mesmers? personally i don’t know what i would do without guardians.

Another useless, QQ topic for mesmer haters. Instead of complain, learn to play…
This class received mostly more nerf since the beginning than any other.

But there always emo hello-kitty commanders who whine about it. Or whine about anything what they simply not like: Oh, a thief kill meee, NEEERF, oh a mesmer stomp meee, NEEERF… the elementalist is OP, NEEERF… And theres always approving crowd of similar “whiners” too… Pathetic!

If you want to play PVP, then PRACTICE, always learn how to counter any tricks. It’s more easier to cry intead of learn. Its easier to say OP, and “I can nothing to do against it, cause it’s the system fault…”

GorHanis.7563:

Another useless, QQ topic for mesmer haters. Instead of complain, learn to play…
This class received mostly more nerf since the beginning than any other.

But there always emo hello-kitty commanders who whine about it. Or whine about anything what they simply not like: Oh, a thief kill meee, NEEERF, oh a mesmer stomp meee, NEEERF… the elementalist is OP, NEEERF… And theres always approving crowd of similar “whiners” too… Pathetic!

If you want to play PVP, then PRACTICE, always learn how to counter any tricks. It’s more easier to cry intead of learn. Its easier to say OP, and “I can nothing to do against it, cause it’s the system fault…”

+ for this

cheers Xixsa

People QQing about mesmers becuse they didnt even try to play them
Speed buff doesnt stack
no speed bump in traits
try to keep up with zerg lol

People QQ because don’t use their mind first… and nor second. Use their childish emotions instead. Whine cause they can’t do something or fail in something. And it’s always anothers fault… not their skills, oh no, but the system, but the OP-ness of anyone, the DEVs are stupid etc. And they thinks that he knows better…

The mesmer is deadly as any profession in skilled hands, and harmless too if the players is dumb. It’s far from madatory especially that on WvW you can use any. Just find your role.

BioHaZarD.7904:

People QQing about mesmers becuse they didnt even try to play them
Speed buff doesnt stack
no speed bump in traits
try to keep up with zerg lol

Exactly. This is a lot of QQ about what I call support mesmers. People actually have no concept of how much we sacrifice in order to gain the ability to help our team deal with zergs (namely: losing the ability to do any real damage against single targets). In that case add this to list:

trying to 1v1 pretty much any other level/class/build lol

Mesmer is a versatile class. Support mesmers would be frustrating for 1v1 builds running in a zerg, as is a 1v1 build frustrating for a solo dedicated support mesmer (in fact any build is frustrating for a solo support mesmer).

Now I hear that swirling winds is pretty much a requirement for sieges. Also I hear banners, turrets, consecrations, symbols and wards are great for dealing with zergs. There are these other things called marks that make quick work of defenders. Those spirits are entirely OP for keeping your teammates alive, as is that bear on resurrect mode. Dagger storm is really annoying when half your zerg gets crippled.

And yes, you will complain that those decrease the potency of your build: exactly how my build is near useless for 1v1 – heck I can’t even run away. Sacrifice. If you want to concentrate on WvW build your character for that, not sPvP.

What I would do to have some of the ele skills on my mesmer.

@Op As far as summoning zerkers on to people on top of towers. you have no clue how often I get “Obstructed!” Please do not tell me we don’t need LoS to summon illusions because they changed it not only to where you need LoS but you also get obstructed at some of the most obscenely unobstructed things. Its quite sad.

jportell.2197:

@Op As far as summoning zerkers on to people on top of towers. you have no clue how often I get “Obstructed!” Please do not tell me we don’t need LoS to summon illusions because they changed it not only to where you need LoS but you also get obstructed at some of the most obscenely unobstructed things. Its quite sad.

^ I get ‘obstructed’ if there is a little pebble on the ground, if there is a 1cm or more inclination or if there is a 1cm wide pole or structure around.

+1 for the two post before. The author had some hello-kitty bad experience with mesmers, especially pulling (cause at the end he generously leave each other complained ability, so LOL), and don’t like him. His LOS suggestions is complete bullkitten. Moreover instead he try to seek a solution or pactice just complain for NERF. Crazy…

TUP had evenings they played without mesmers, and still kicked kitten
So mandatory?? Dont think so

edit: i ment a. s . s .. i never kicked any kittens, or any other animal!! kitten forum so violent and twisting my words.