Guild Wars 2

Perhaps the merge combinations should have been done differently?

Or perhaps that issue won’t be fixed by mere population fixes? Maybe the scoring update could help with that?

It doesn’t seem all over to me, honestly. I’ve seen bigger swings happen.

No, Kuru is correct that this pairing wasn’t balanced well. I already posted a thread called “This is balance????” yesterday as it was easy to see how the matches were trending on NA.

It is still a huge improvement already. Obviously the pairing is not done perfectly but it shows the potential.

I dont think the point of the merge was to automatically balance out servers according to their skill, but rather to consolidate the populations so that they could eventually balance themselves out.
Before the merge there was like a dozen empty servers, and a few full servers, this makes it so there are more high population matchups, so the new tiering of the servers will adjust according to which servers do the best rather than being stagnant and being seperated pretty much dependent on population.
the tier lists were pretty much just a list of servers seperated by population size

Kayberz.5346:

I dont think the point of the merge was to automatically balance out servers according to their skill, but rather to consolidate the populations so that they could eventually balance themselves out.
Before the merge there was like a dozen empty servers, and a few full servers, this makes it so there are more high population matchups, so the new tiering of the servers will adjust according to which servers do the best rather than being stagnant and being seperated pretty much dependent on population.
the tier lists were pretty much just a list of servers seperated by population size

If the reason Anet did the merges was just to clear out the desolate landscapes of the lower tiers, then they’re doing it wrong.

At the moment, the number one factor in determining who “wins” a matchup is population and coverage disparities within the matchup. That’s what needs to be fixed by the merges if Anet really wants any long term benefit from this move. Otherwise, population will just continue decreasing steadily until another merge is done.

Ideally, you’d want to merge so that population/coverage were balanced throughout — allowing much more diversity of matchups. That would fix the perennial problem of stagnant matchups. More realistically, you can aim for tiers (gold, silver) where every server within a tier is well-matched. That would require some thought and data analysis to do right.

But it doesn’t look like Anet thought about this at all: their merge was simply top with bottom, second with second to bottom, etc. Sure, there’s a lot of people online right now, but how long is it going to last with such a simplistic merging?

Screw balance , were in last place & I could care less. Epic fight at all hours of the day trumps winning. For once we aren’t losing or winning because of a massive population imbalance. Need better organization and trained pugs but that’s not anets fault. If u were in first place in your tier and now your last start workin harder to get your " new server" back in shape. No team is locked in place and everyone has a chance.

Balance is fine and will adjust its self over time, most of the leading servers are in the lead because of things that predate the merger.

BG is winning because BG only really comes out to play when it actually matters (something that might hurt us in this more volatile system) When BG does wake up they absolutely slaughter everything in their path. Its happened every season, in S2 it took the combined efforts (granted pretty dirty play) of two servers to stop them. They call it hybergate for a reason kids….

TC is winning cause right before the merger they got a big old T1 guild alliance. That alliance would be steam rolling T2 merger or no, they already did it for YB once.

And FA is winning because its a solid T2 server that got matched vs T3 servers. Sure they all got an influx of players but, the stronger server will still be stronger.

Give it a couple weeks to even out. And look at the bright side, while each match has 1 server that is clearly winning, no match has a server that is simple dominating the other 2.

Speak for your own match up, Gunnars just started ;p

They basically said that the first matches under the new system could be like this, they reset some WvW MMR stuff and adjusted it.

So only the upcoming match ups under the new population changes are the once that will actually reflect the state of WvW going forward because of this. Something about the new combined serves moving up and down in rating more quickly for now before the match making can settle into matches where the linked worlds are where they should actually be at.

Crise.9401:

Something about the new combined serves moving up and down in rating more quickly for now before the match making can settle into matches where the linked worlds are where they should actually be at.

But it won’t happen because tier-edge servers never get a chance to fight against each other, their nearest neighbor in rating. Instead the glicko walls between tiers will be established more quickly.

Look at the current predicted edge servers. Mag and FA, for example, are close in both current and predicted rating to each other (because they are fighting against 2+ rank higher/lower servers). But the two servers above and the two servers below are much further in rating. So all that is possible to happen next match is FA and Mag swap with each other and never fight each other to make a 1v1 Glicko comparison between the two instead of both Mag and FA being in the same tier match with each other. The same thing is going to happen between T1/T2 and T3/T4 edge servers.

All we are going to end up with is servers buying more transfers, this time to the linked, less populated pair, in order to make “pushes” to higher tier.

Offair.2563:

Speak for your own match up, Gunnars just started ;p

I hope to see good old Gunnars Hold soon, would be a nice change of pace from the brainless SFR omniblobs.

FoW will nightcap GH to the number 1 in this match no matter how many blobs FSP throws us at prime time

butch.8136:

Or perhaps that issue won’t be fixed by mere population fixes? Maybe the scoring update could help with that?

^^

This.

Merges are only one part of it. Though I feel that a couple things have been done kinda poorly, two that come to my mind is that overstacked servers are now even more overstacked when they did not need to be, and at the other end of things you have a combo of NSP + SF that has a giantic timegap vs any other server pairing. Basically 2 prime time NA servers with next to zero off-time coverage will give a very predictable result, they should have been merged with some different timezone servers.

Tongku.5326:

Though I feel that a couple things have been done kinda poorly, two that come to my mind is that overstacked servers are now even more overstacked when they did not need to be, and at the other end of things you have a combo of NSP + SF that has a giantic timegap vs any other server pairing. Basically 2 prime time NA servers with next to zero off-time coverage will give a very predictable result, they should have been merged with some different timezone servers.

This was very apparent reset night when NSP was ticking in the 40s on reset night (late night). They should have put some effort into analyzing coverage data to create merges that would result in more balanced matchups. Instead they took the least-effort route. So really none of WvW’s problems will have been solved in the long (or even medium) term.

FogLeg.9354:

FoW will nightcap GH to the number 1 in this match no matter how many blobs FSP throws us at prime time

Ah yes, the perfect scoring system to be proud over.

18 hours of 3 servers fighting each other during the day is irrelevant, 6 hours of 1 server fighting doors and NPC during the night is a story in the same class as the Illiad.

Dawdler.8521:

FogLeg.9354:

FoW will nightcap GH to the number 1 in this match no matter how many blobs FSP throws us at prime time

Ah yes, the perfect scoring system to be proud over.

18 hours of 3 servers fighting each other during the day is irrelevant, 6 hours of 1 server fighting doors and NPC during the night is a story in the same class as the Illiad.

Yeah seems you guys have even a more kittentier nightcrew then us on GH. Perhaps spread those omniblobs a bit more?

Offair.2563:

Dawdler.8521:

FogLeg.9354:

FoW will nightcap GH to the number 1 in this match no matter how many blobs FSP throws us at prime time

Ah yes, the perfect scoring system to be proud over.

18 hours of 3 servers fighting each other during the day is irrelevant, 6 hours of 1 server fighting doors and NPC during the night is a story in the same class as the Illiad.

Yeah seems you guys have even a more kittentier nightcrew then us on GH. Perhaps spread those omniblobs a bit more?

Alas the blob can only spread so much before it become pancake.

Also keep in mind the matchups are not exactly balanced because some of the servers are not in the tier they belong in. Moving one position up or down a tier can make a difference in the matchup.

T1- 1, 2, 3
T2- 4, 5, 7
T3- 6, 8, 10
T4- 9, 11, 12

BG I believe have come out of hibernation to play this week, they’ve been known to do this for important weeks in the past. I certainly don’t think ET gave them enough population and coverage to absolutely dominate, bBut YB and JQ also lost some guilds to T2 before the link.

Would T2 been closer with FA than Mag in there? probably.

In T3 FA and SoS are kinda picking on the smaller team, plus overnight coverage.

In T4 the matchup might be more balanced with HoD/EB there instead of SBI/CD.

At the end of the day overnight coverage as usual will give you an advantage.

The system works better with more servers. With less servers in the mix its not really going to work. Especially with NA self-stacking illness. Hopefully the scoring removes night capping , but even than matchmaking is going to be a problem.

Xenesis.6389:

Also keep in mind the matchups are not exactly balanced because some of the servers are not in the tier they belong in. Moving one position up or down a tier can make a difference in the matchup.

You speak as if they were locked into the merges we have by some algorithm. But they’re not. They have 100% control over how to merge. They have all the population and coverage data to do this properly. So why didn’t Anet make the appropriate merges? Maybe if they put more thought and work into the merges, the resulting matchups could be more balanced… and really importantly: it might even be possible to create more diversity of matchups.

I am not sure how to break it to you , so I will shoot straight from the hip;

Maguuma is currently making a heavy Glicko Win…. it appears they are in the right tier.

FA is currently taking a heavy Glicko Loss…. it appears they are in the right tier.

ET is carrying BG to victory, it appears they are in the right tier. (TIC)

Some are happy with the increased numbers, some long for a return to solo roamers facing solo roamers.

IMHO, Anet has done something, I am happy that they have tried something. Without providing an example of how they could do it better, I will live with this system.

elkirin.8534:

I am not sure how to break it to you , so I will shoot straight from the hip;

Maguuma is currently making a heavy Glicko Win…. it appears they are in the right tier.

FA is currently taking a heavy Glicko Loss…. it appears they are in the right tier.

ET is carrying BG to victory, it appears they are in the right tier. (TIC)

Some are happy with the increased numbers, some long for a return to solo roamers facing solo roamers.

IMHO, Anet has done something, I am happy that they have tried something. Without providing an example of how they could do it better, I will live with this system.

FA losing glicko vs Mag gaining glicko does not necessarily mean they are in the right tier.

It could be due to that T2 and T3 glicko gap is greater than the actual difference.

Remember that there is a population surge in most servers which make the gap between servers much smaller.

elkirin.8534:

I am not sure how to break it to you , so I will shoot straight from the hip;

Maguuma is currently making a heavy Glicko Win…. it appears they are in the right tier.

FA is currently taking a heavy Glicko Loss…. it appears they are in the right tier.

ET is carrying BG to victory, it appears they are in the right tier. (TIC)

Some are happy with the increased numbers, some long for a return to solo roamers facing solo roamers.

IMHO, Anet has done something, I am happy that they have tried something. Without providing an example of how they could do it better, I will live with this system.

Just to add to that, Mag has about 7k kills over DB at the moment and that gap will likely keep growing. Mag is in last place because most of the guilds are having so much fun fighting in EB that they refuse to go PPT in the bl’s. Go read the cancer forum thread on this match up, people are loving it.

Exciton.8942:

elkirin.8534:

I am not sure how to break it to you , so I will shoot straight from the hip;

Maguuma is currently making a heavy Glicko Win…. it appears they are in the right tier.

FA is currently taking a heavy Glicko Loss…. it appears they are in the right tier.

ET is carrying BG to victory, it appears they are in the right tier. (TIC)

Some are happy with the increased numbers, some long for a return to solo roamers facing solo roamers.

IMHO, Anet has done something, I am happy that they have tried something. Without providing an example of how they could do it better, I will live with this system.

FA losing glicko vs Mag gaining glicko does not necessarily mean they are in the right tier.

It could be due to that T2 and T3 glicko gap is greater than the actual difference.

Remember that there is a population surge in most servers which make the gap between servers much smaller.

Next he’ll say HoD/Ebay is in the right tier while ignoring how close the rating is between rank 9 and rank 10 server. The whole “right tier” way of thinking IMHO doesn’t apply to this beta. That’s an NA way of looking at WvW formed over the years that stagnates match-ups. I don’t find it particularly useful either to make comparisons between matches of individual servers last week and matches of combined servers this week.

The high chance of matches being decided on day 1 will always occur because wvw is a 3 team free for all played 24/7. It’s not just difficult to change this, it’s actually impossible.

Puck.9612:

elkirin.8534:

I am not sure how to break it to you , so I will shoot straight from the hip;

Maguuma is currently making a heavy Glicko Win…. it appears they are in the right tier.

FA is currently taking a heavy Glicko Loss…. it appears they are in the right tier.

ET is carrying BG to victory, it appears they are in the right tier. (TIC)

Some are happy with the increased numbers, some long for a return to solo roamers facing solo roamers.

IMHO, Anet has done something, I am happy that they have tried something. Without providing an example of how they could do it better, I will live with this system.

Just to add to that, Mag has about 7k kills over DB at the moment and that gap will likely keep growing. Mag is in last place because most of the guilds are having so much fun fighting in EB that they refuse to go PPT in the bl’s. Go read the cancer forum thread on this match up, people are loving it.

Don’t know how they’re having fun. Pretty much boils down to 10-15 man groups camping by spawns ganking solo or duo players and then running away as soon as a few pugs muster, and then repeating the process over and over.

And before you say “get the blob to wipe them” or “get numbers to match them,” no, that doesn’t work. They run away unless their numbers favor enemies 3 : 1.

It’s pretty much been realized that Mag’s precious KDR is the product not of skilled play but instead just simply not fighting when against fair numbers, and continuously picking on random pugs leaving spawn with over-sized “roaming” groups.

I miss fighting FA, even if in small-scale they’d beat our pugs back pretty bad. Way better players there, honestly, and they still played a more respectful game to let people get back into the action.

DeceiverX.8361:

Puck.9612:

elkirin.8534:

I am not sure how to break it to you , so I will shoot straight from the hip;

Maguuma is currently making a heavy Glicko Win…. it appears they are in the right tier.

FA is currently taking a heavy Glicko Loss…. it appears they are in the right tier.

ET is carrying BG to victory, it appears they are in the right tier. (TIC)

Some are happy with the increased numbers, some long for a return to solo roamers facing solo roamers.

IMHO, Anet has done something, I am happy that they have tried something. Without providing an example of how they could do it better, I will live with this system.

Just to add to that, Mag has about 7k kills over DB at the moment and that gap will likely keep growing. Mag is in last place because most of the guilds are having so much fun fighting in EB that they refuse to go PPT in the bl’s. Go read the cancer forum thread on this match up, people are loving it.

Don’t know how they’re having fun. Pretty much boils down to 10-15 man groups camping by spawns ganking solo or duo players and then running away as soon as a few pugs muster, and then repeating the process over and over.

And before you say “get the blob to wipe them” or “get numbers to match them,” no, that doesn’t work. They run away unless their numbers favor enemies 3 : 1.

It’s pretty much been realized that Mag’s precious KDR is the product not of skilled play but instead just simply not fighting when against fair numbers, and continuously picking on random pugs leaving spawn with over-sized “roaming” groups.

I miss fighting FA, even if in small-scale they’d beat our pugs back pretty bad. Way better players there, honestly, and they still played a more respectful game to let people get back into the action.

Lol, your whole post just sounds like a salt fueled rant.
Maguuma is pretty well known for busting zergs much bigger in size than them, so idk wtf your talking about.
Obviously just making baseless statements out of rage

Lord Kuru.3685:

Xenesis.6389:

Also keep in mind the matchups are not exactly balanced because some of the servers are not in the tier they belong in. Moving one position up or down a tier can make a difference in the matchup.

You speak as if they were locked into the merges we have by some algorithm. But they’re not. They have 100% control over how to merge. They have all the population and coverage data to do this properly. So why didn’t Anet make the appropriate merges? Maybe if they put more thought and work into the merges, the resulting matchups could be more balanced… and really importantly: it might even be possible to create more diversity of matchups.

Changes had to have been made in some pairings because of public fear that certain pairings would ruin the mode even further. Take NSP for example, pretty consistent mid level T5, SF was 15th before this pairing (3 servers in to the cutoff of spot), we were straddling T5/T6 weeks before this change, not big enough to succeed to a significant degree in T5, too big for T6. Yet, EB, the 13th place server before pairs, who straddled T4/T5 got bumped, depending on when the numbers were taken, FC and everyone 16th and below got bumped significantly in some cases, while SF got paired with the cutoff server?

I’m not knocking NSP here, in fact, Im enjoying playing with them (as unfair as it seems to both of us at times), but when you look at EB/NSP weeks before the pairs, both right at the 12th place cutoff point, what else was Anet supposed to do? NSP/EB would’ve destroyed T4 and made a significant dent in T3, any other pairings that went up against them wouldve floundered and been stuck til the end of beta. Other possibilitities, TC/DR, SBI/SF same story. It would’ve been been worse I think.

The pairings overall seem like a good choice to the extent that the matches were right. This is where I find fault, but looking at the possibilities, again, HOD/EB in T4, Mag/DR in T3, would it have been any better?

Lurock Turoth.9085:

Balance is fine and will adjust its self over time, most of the leading servers are in the lead because of things that predate the merger.

BG is winning because BG only really comes out to play when it actually matters (something that might hurt us in this more volatile system) When BG does wake up they absolutely slaughter everything in their path. Its happened every season, in S2 it took the combined efforts (granted pretty dirty play) of two servers to stop them. They call it hybergate for a reason kids….

TC is winning cause right before the merger they got a big old T1 guild alliance. That alliance would be steam rolling T2 merger or no, they already did it for YB once.

And FA is winning because its a solid T2 server that got matched vs T3 servers. Sure they all got an influx of players but, the stronger server will still be stronger.

Give it a couple weeks to even out. And look at the bright side, while each match has 1 server that is clearly winning, no match has a server that is simple dominating the other 2.

BG is winning this week because of your massive stacking, period.

Atm, BG has many, many, many more players than JQ or YB.. IN EVERY MAP. Just check your queues.

Numbers in WvW is all that has ever been required to win, because that is the way ANET designed it. Skill matters very little WvW. That has been proven every week and every time guilds have stacked servers to move tiers.

And with tactivators, WvW skill is even less important.

When ANET starts penalizing guilds / players for stacking servers then we can talk about skill. Until then the biggest zerg will always win in WvW. Again……. ALWAYS.

Gratz BG for being the biggest Zerg this week. And when ANET opens up transfers again, (after ANET takes a bunch of the rube’s transfer money)… gratz the new zerg server.

Thank you. As I thought, the best way to illustrate my point was to just allow several people to fire off rants by continuously copy pasting my post then adding their own slant to how they read it.

As I said, it would appear Maguuma is in the right tier, and it would appear FA is in the right tier……BUT the system we have makes it almost impossible for Maguuma and FA to actually fight each other for the slot. I do realise wvwvw is always a 3 way contest.

IMHO, This needs to be fixed somehow. Even if it means totally replacing Glicko.

I still remain happy that Anet has tried something rather than just tinker with quality of life changes.

Kayberz.5346:

Maguuma is pretty well known for busting zergs much bigger in size than them, so idk wtf your talking about.

lol, said no other server ever. Thanks needed a laugh for the afternoon. Mag is well known, if there is one enemy player mag will send 6, if there are 6 enemies mag will send 24. That is known I agree.

The fights are better so in that regard I call it a success. The mid-term aspect of these server links is that they can balance things out a bit by relinking servers after a few weeks. I doubt this system is their endgame but this should buy them time to develop a more comprehensive system.

Its Beta for a reason. They’ll evaluate and relink as needed.

Agree so far, if you just look at fights and/or server queues which then equate to fights its successful.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

Its Beta for a reason. They’ll evaluate and relink as needed.

Look at their “beta” history. What changes did they make to DBL from beta to release — despite the flood of negative feedback? They’ve done this a lot — talk like they’ll make the appropriate adjustments and tweaks, but in fact do next to nothing. What you see now is very likely the permanent merges, with maybe one or two token modifications.