Guild Wars 2

Okaishi once again….

The issue with many thieves is they think they deserve to do everything.

Now BURST build is not supposed to stay alive in a fight…
Like any other BURST profession SHOULD be based on hitting first, hitting hard and then if failing, pay for the failure.

The best part is that is not even the only build thief has.

You just want to being able o burst from stealth, be able to follow any damaged opponent surviving the opener, reset the fight at will and just flee if you can t win…

If this isn t god mode i wonder what it is…. (note we are speaking of WWW), and that without even mentioning the evades….

Compare the thief to an ele….and you istantly see what s wrong with thief.

Point is: there is no build that can kill reliably an halfway decent thief even if you try to build for that and even if the thief commit huge mistakes.

Proof ll those thieves trolling in front of almost ANY enemy spawn….even anet admitted it….but despite what they say, they never do anything to solve the problems they know gw2 has.

Implementing stealth was one of the biggest design flaws of GW2 for pvp.

There will always be issues with it because it’s such a bad mechanic.

LordByron.8369:

Okaishi once again….

The issue with many thieves is they think they deserve to do everything.

Now BURST build is not supposed to stay alive in a fight…
Like any other BURST profession SHOULD be based on hitting first, hitting hard and then if failing, pay for the failure.

The best part is that is not even the only build thief has.

You just want to being able o burst from stealth, be able to follow any damaged opponent surviving the opener, reset the fight at will and just flee if you can t win…

If this isn t god mode i wonder what it is…. (note we are speaking of WWW), and that without even mentioning the evades….

So what you want to say is that they should make it so you’re a free kill after failing a burst? Please say the same to mesmers and warriors then. D/D eles have very good amounts of burst too with plenty of healing, and in no way are they are free kill if they miss that burning speed/fire grab. Mesmers can easily get away with failing a burst or two. Actually almost all the professions can get as much burst as thieves while still having some mechanics they can rely on for survivability. Taking away stealth is taking away the d/d and d/p thief’s offensive and defensive capabilities. I’m okay if you can find us some other reliable mechanics, but you need to understand that drastic changes to stealth will break the class if they’re not compensated significantly in some other way.

You don’t have a lot stealth and constant evades. It’s two different builds you’re talking about, you don’t get to have them both.

Personally I see thieves die all the time. They can disengage easily, but most classes can if they want to. There’s quite a few classes/builds that are very hard for a thief to take down 1v1, and their chance of dying is atleast as high (if not higher) as their opponent if they properly commit to the fight. Fighting a good player only with the intent of running away when things don’t go as planned will never win a thief the fight.

In the end most of it still comes down to understanding your enemies. Making and trying out a thief yourself will significantly improve your chances against one. I did the same with mesmers, which I used to have far more problems with than I have now. I don’t mean offense, but your posts didn’t give me the impression you have tried a thief yourself.

I will restate this one more time because it is a very valid argument for both sides…

Most of a thieves survivability is tied with stealth, most of our most powerful traits are tied to being in stealth. Nerfing stealth will cripple a majority of thieves builds, and reduce this class to nothing.

I am a big supporter of stealth, but also believe some aspects do need a rework. Condition cleanse is largely tired to stealth, regen is tied to stealth, our strongest spike heal is a stealth. These builds have become a “must” have due to the condition creep in WvW and are largely desired over other traits due to many of a thieves other traits being underwhelming.

There are counter plays to stealth, but require a lot of practice, maybe more so than would be required to face other classes. They require knowing how a thief plays, which is a time intense process many will not bother to learn.

If stealth is nerfed, thieves will need an option to survive with out it. Please keep in mind stealth is a core aspect of this class, like it or hate it, it is. Complain, moan, but make suggestions to maybe help balance what would otherwise cripple the thief class.

Thieves do get defensive when all we hear is negative, insulting, and demeaning. We don’t want our class nerfed to where it is unplaced our becomes even more of a one trick pony.

Does stealth need a nerf? I can’t say yes right now when with out it many of the numerous builds I run would be worthless. I would love to have other avenues to explore and maybe my thief would come out of partial retirement (I.e. Stealth nurse, harvest stealth bot).

But, and this is true, thieves are easy to beat when you know all of the gimmicks they use to survive. It required over a thousand hours on one for me to be able to make this statement, which is a long time to invest in one class just to learn how to counter it.

Okaishi.8320:

So what you want to say is that they should make it so you’re a free kill after failing a burst? Please say the same to mesmers and warriors then.

warrior and mesmer are about sustained…..except shatter mesmers..
And yes its how burst profession are supposed to work in ANY game.

You bring your opponent in a weak state then you have to finish him before it recovers or can fight back or just die.

Otherwyse you are covering 2 roles rather than only the burst one.

D/D eles have very good amounts of burst too with plenty of healing, and in no way are they are free kill if they miss that burning speed/fire grab.

you don t play ele….we d lose time discussing a profession you don t know…
FYI its called BUNKER D/D……

Lets speak of the real BURST that is S/F or S/D fresh air…if you miss the burst you are a free kill, and that is the most viable ele nowaday.

Mesmers can easily get away with failing a burst or two.

Mesmer shatter is a burst build, mesmer PU is not….its a duelist role with no burst.
Equip and build is totally different.

Actually almost all the professions can get as much burst as thieves while still having some mechanics they can rely on for survivability.

unfortunately you can t provide any example…mostly because there is none…
There is some sort of burst necro…with similar issues of ele and they don t even have stealth to get free burst attempts.

Taking away stealth is taking away the d/d and d/p thief’s offensive and defensive capabilities.

ther should be some middle ground…
stealth can t be a defensive and offensive tool and be coupled with mobility.

Look at what they did to ele RTL…….would be like giving 30 seconds of revealed debuff to thieves…..
That would start to make sense….keep your stealth and use as offensive OR defensive tool..

not both.

You don’t have a lot stealth and constant evades. It’s two different builds you’re talking about, you don’t get to have them both.

evades is th OTHER mechanic to build with…a luxury few professions have….

Personally I see thieves die all the time.

Even thief section is full of thieves saying only baddies die in WWW……unless you meet a Whole BIG zerg and you are surprised….not case that thieves first job is scouting….

They can disengage easily, but most classes can if they want to.

currently only 2 are really strong at this:
Warrior due to insane mobility
Thief with mobility AND stealth having it even easier.

There’s quite a few classes/builds that are very hard for a thief to take down 1v1,

read above….you may have issues Killing a profession….but if you are good with your profession you won t EVER die in any duel

As i said even anet admitted it…..

We just need thief to pay for their mistakes…..if you can t lose, then any chance of Killing an opponent is OP.

LordByron.8369:

warrior and mesmer are about sustained…..except shatter mesmers..
And yes its how burst profession are supposed to work in ANY game.

You bring your opponent in a weak state then you have to finish him before it recovers or can fight back or just die.

Otherwyse you are covering 2 roles rather than only the burst one.

Bursts in GW2 are too easily avoided to make it work like any game. The ability to dodge plays an important factor.

LordByron.8369:

you don t play ele….we d lose time discussing a profession you don t know…
FYI its called BUNKER D/D……

I’ve played D/D ele, I admit not as much but I know how the class works. I’ve got a few really good D/D eles in the guild and let me tell you that a well played ele is very hard to take down while they’re dealing very good amounts of AoE damage. Burning Speed into Lightning Flash + Ring of Fire and if you manage to land the Fire Grab as well it’s a lot of damage. Especially if they manage to keep up 20+ stacks of might all the time. Which is why I find dueling a good D/D ele a difficult challenge.

I’m not saying D/D ele is OP, because they really aren’t, but it was just an example of something that can deal a lot of damage, but missing their burst won’t make them a free kill afterwards.

PU mesmers can actually have great burst too. Especially because it allows you to build glass and still have good survivability. I’ve dueled a GD PU mesmer that was insanely difficult to fight, and had very good burst. It’s very much about the player as well.

I have lost in duels, I have died in WvW and I’m not exactly the worst thief around. It’s about committing to the fight, but I can’t be bothered to repeat myself anymore at this point.

Stealth rework, fine. Just thoughless nerfs, no please.

LordByron.8369:

Okaishi.8320:

So what you want to say is that they should make it so you’re a free kill after failing a burst? Please say the same to mesmers and warriors then.

warrior and mesmer are about sustained…..except shatter mesmers..
And yes its how burst profession are supposed to work in ANY game.

You bring your opponent in a weak state then you have to finish him before it recovers or can fight back or just die.

Otherwyse you are covering 2 roles rather than only the burst one.

D/D eles have very good amounts of burst too with plenty of healing, and in no way are they are free kill if they miss that burning speed/fire grab.

you don t play ele….we d lose time discussing a profession you don t know…
FYI its called BUNKER D/D……

Lets speak of the real BURST that is S/F or S/D fresh air…if you miss the burst you are a free kill, and that is the most viable ele nowaday.

Mesmers can easily get away with failing a burst or two.

Mesmer shatter is a burst build, mesmer PU is not….its a duelist role with no burst.
Equip and build is totally different.

Actually almost all the professions can get as much burst as thieves while still having some mechanics they can rely on for survivability.

unfortunately you can t provide any example…mostly because there is none…
There is some sort of burst necro…with similar issues of ele and they don t even have stealth to get free burst attempts.

Taking away stealth is taking away the d/d and d/p thief’s offensive and defensive capabilities.

ther should be some middle ground…
stealth can t be a defensive and offensive tool and be coupled with mobility.

Look at what they did to ele RTL…….would be like giving 30 seconds of revealed debuff to thieves…..
That would start to make sense….keep your stealth and use as offensive OR defensive tool..

not both.

You don’t have a lot stealth and constant evades. It’s two different builds you’re talking about, you don’t get to have them both.

evades is th OTHER mechanic to build with…a luxury few professions have….

Personally I see thieves die all the time.

Even thief section is full of thieves saying only baddies die in WWW……unless you meet a Whole BIG zerg and you are surprised….not case that thieves first job is scouting….

They can disengage easily, but most classes can if they want to.

currently only 2 are really strong at this:
Warrior due to insane mobility
Thief with mobility AND stealth having it even easier.

There’s quite a few classes/builds that are very hard for a thief to take down 1v1,

read above….you may have issues Killing a profession….but if you are good with your profession you won t EVER die in any duel

As i said even anet admitted it…..

We just need thief to pay for their mistakes…..if you can t lose, then any chance of Killing an opponent is OP.

Taking away stealth is not the solution. We have not purposefully tied our defensive and offensive capabilities to it, Anet has. Without compensation in other areas stealth should not be touched.

My solution is:
Make revealed state 10sec
Rework Black Powder Shot to give 1 initiative if the player is in its circle when the skill ends
Decrease the cooldown of Shadowstep by 10sec
Break the thiefs stealth if he misses, gets blocked, or is evaded while trying to execute a stealth only skill (backstab)
Make master trapper give 4-5 seconds of protection

Bring on the qq

Stand The Wall.6987:

My solution is:
Make revealed state 10sec
Rework Black Powder Shot to give 1 initiative if the player is in its circle when the skill ends
Decrease the cooldown of Shadowstep by 10sec
Break the thiefs stealth if he misses, gets blocked, or is evaded while trying to execute a stealth only skill (backstab)
Make master trapper give 4-5 seconds of protection

Bring on the qq

bring it! lol. good thieves will still win because they don’t rely on stealth.

yeah nerf perplexity OP engi first.

It comes down to fun. And for all non thieves, getting ganked from out of nowhere by an enemy you didn’t/can’t see just isn’t fun. This should be the baseline of this discussion.

This corresponds with a general issue of fairness. The most fun games are not necessarily the most balanced, but the ones in which you always believe that you have an equal chance to win. The stealth-opening gameplay of the thief unfortunately runs counter to this principle.

It’s not a l2p or “try playing a thief” issue either. I accept that playing one isn’t easy, and that other classes have counters. The issue is that in WvW all other classes allow for you to enter combat on a more agreed-upon playing field, whereas thieves’ mechanics are all about starting off with the advantage. Again, this just isn’t fun.

Stealth should be used to drop targeting and allow for brief repositioning. It should not be allowed to give one player a massive leg up at the start of a fight.

Bunda.2691:

It comes down to fun. And for all non thieves, getting ganked from out of nowhere by an enemy you didn’t/can’t see just isn’t fun. This should be the baseline of this discussion.

This corresponds with a general issue of fairness. The most fun games are not necessarily the most balanced, but the ones in which you always believe that you have an equal chance to win. The stealth-opening gameplay of the thief unfortunately runs counter to this principle.

It’s not a l2p or “try playing a thief” issue either. I accept that playing one isn’t easy, and that other classes have counters. The issue is that in WvW all other classes allow for you to enter combat on a more agreed-upon playing field, whereas thieves’ mechanics are all about starting off with the advantage. Again, this just isn’t fun.

Stealth should be used to drop targeting and allow for brief repositioning. It should not be allowed to give one player a massive leg up at the start of a fight.

You’re misunderstanding one thing though. Thieves generally aren’t in stealth before ganking an enemy player. I almost always see thieves coming just by keeping an eye on my surroundings. Unlike what certain people believe, thieves don’t roam around on the map permanently in stealth. I believe that many people mistake getting ganked from behind/the sides with getting ganked from stealth.

LordByron.8369:

warrior and mesmer are about sustained…..except shatter mesmers..
And yes its how burst profession are supposed to work in ANY game..

You mean like this?

or this?

heh it’s indeed how it should works!!!!11!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!
rofl

Okaishi.8320:

Bunda.2691:

It comes down to fun. And for all non thieves, getting ganked from out of nowhere by an enemy you didn’t/can’t see just isn’t fun. This should be the baseline of this discussion.

This corresponds with a general issue of fairness. The most fun games are not necessarily the most balanced, but the ones in which you always believe that you have an equal chance to win. The stealth-opening gameplay of the thief unfortunately runs counter to this principle.

It’s not a l2p or “try playing a thief” issue either. I accept that playing one isn’t easy, and that other classes have counters. The issue is that in WvW all other classes allow for you to enter combat on a more agreed-upon playing field, whereas thieves’ mechanics are all about starting off with the advantage. Again, this just isn’t fun.

Stealth should be used to drop targeting and allow for brief repositioning. It should not be allowed to give one player a massive leg up at the start of a fight.

You’re misunderstanding one thing though. Thieves generally aren’t in stealth before ganking an enemy player. I almost always see thieves coming just by keeping an eye on my surroundings. Unlike what certain people believe, thieves don’t roam around on the map permanently in stealth. I believe that many people mistake getting ganked from behind/the sides with getting ganked from stealth.

Really. Stealth —> 1500-range steal —> cloak and dagger (stealth) —> backstab.

You’re correct that they’re not always running around in stealth, but most good thieves will use stealth (or terrain, if that’s an option) to position themselves for the above combo opener. And that combo + venom is brutal and essentially unblockable if you can’t see the thief coming. That is the problem.

Again, I’m not saying that combo is the easiest to pull off, but few other classes have similar combos that, if played well, are essentially guaranteed damage.

I love playing and running alongside thieves, and the class mechanics. It’s only the high-damage stealth opener that I find problematic.

Hah…All those bearbows, hambows and zerglings asking for more hardcounters and easymode Vs thief. Very amusing!
Get over it, thief is at least the king of Roaming.
If you cannot Beat an average thief, Stick to your blob or try getting better.

Domey.9804:

Hah…All those bearbows, hambows and zerglings asking for more hardcounters and easymode Vs thief. Very amusing!
Get over it, thief is at least the king of Roaming.
If you cannot Beat an average thief, Stick to your blob or try getting better.

+1
all pvpheroes but i see only big blobs and fotm braindeadbuilds.
Guess farming towers start to be too much boring, poor guys

mrmadhaze.8706:

Domey.9804:

Hah…All those bearbows, hambows and zerglings asking for more hardcounters and easymode Vs thief. Very amusing!
Get over it, thief is at least the king of Roaming.
If you cannot Beat an average thief, Stick to your blob or try getting better.

+1
all pvpheroes but i see only big blobs and fotm braindeadbuilds.
Guess farming towers start to be too much boring, poor guys

Thief is easymode vs everything else

Yeah guys just stick to the blob and let the thieves battle it out between them only.

I play a thief, and it’s easy mode in solo and in zerging. LOL.

When burning, invis players will be lit up. You can’t hide from justice.

The thief have to be very bunker and/or use constant stealth to stand a chance against my ele. The perm stealth mechanic is still the most broken mechanic in this game. The only exception so far is trigerless. He is really good and our duels were very balanced on wins/loses.

Thieve can’t perm stealth in Spvp.

They need to match the stealth duration on Thieve to Spvp. It’s really bullkitten in WvW.

when i duel thieve in OS. It turns into dumb long match while it’s another story in Spvp

@Liza: So true, it shouldnt be an equal fight! I mean… Thieves should just die! Fast!

Btw Stealth duration is the Same, you are misinformed. Revealed duration is different and there is no reason to keep it at 4 seconds in pvp since there is no “thief über burst cant Dodge” anymore.

Liza.2758:

Thieve can’t perm stealth in Spvp.

They need to match the stealth duration on Thieve to Spvp. It’s really bullkitten in WvW.

when i duel thieve in OS. It turns into dumb long match while it’s another story in Spvp

First off thief in spvp doesn’t “perm stealth” (we can not do that anyway anywhere) because being stealth does not let you contest a point. On top of that any good thief in Spvp is going to focus in killing you. In WvW roaming no matter the class is based on being fast enough to evade a zerg and the capability to disengage combat at will.

One last thing good player do not duel in WvW. I don’t give care about the spot behind the camp. good players either focus down enemy players or move from objective to objective flipping. That duel me BS is just that a joke.

Once again if you want stealth nerfed ask anet to rework the entire thief traits linked to stealth and SA trait line. Let me tell you that whatever they do will lead to one of 2 things. Either a useless class with high migration to warrior and mesmer (not even calling them out it is just the truth) or thief receiving the type of buff that gives us evades for days and way better burst damage.

Let me break it to you. If it does happen it will either just break the class and be a hit to anet solely for the sake of WvW roaming where the meta is zerging (go figure). Or they will rework the class to be the best evasive class in the game with better burst, mobility, and sustained healing. In any case no class should be a free kill.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Flare for Rangers

I’d do anything for that Mabuse, ANYTHING. I’m actually surprised that most classes don’t have something that can do that. I could picture Engineers being able to cause an AoE reveal with the Utility Goggles, Rangers and Thieves being able to pull it off with traps, and Necromancers with wells, to name a few things.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’d do anything for that Mabuse, ANYTHING. I’m actually surprised that most classes don’t have something that can do that. I could picture Engineers being able to cause an AoE reveal with the Utility Goggles, Rangers and Thieves being able to pull it off with traps, and Necromancers with wells, to name a few things.

rogue mechanics in wow are different, they have actual perma stealth, while they do rely on stealth they have moves that allow them to use stealth spells w/o being in stealth as well…. they also have different defensive mechanics that helps them outside of stealth while thieves in gw2 don’t have it

like for example: rogue can steal weapon… disarmed target can’t use any weapon skills in wow

rogues also have evasion that gives them 70%ish (depending on patch) passive evasion, they also get cloak which makes them immune to any magic dmg (aka conditions, ranged caster dmg) for certain amount of time

they can also go in stealth if they stay out of combat for 6 sec

etc etc.

different games are different, you can’t see it just like that in vacuum

and just as side note: in many many patches rogues were really weak, over years rogues population was around 2-3%; in some expansions rogues arena population was close to 1% where warriors were at 25% for example…

I’d change the time on the reveal of course to avoid it being too powerful. Like maybe 4-7 second reveal?

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’d change the time on the reveal of course to avoid it being too powerful. Like maybe 4-7 second reveal?

why…. why would stealth need a nerf on first place? it was already nerfed couple times

to 10th time: unless anet adds other means of survival there is no point nerfing stealth or add even more counters; thieves are not hard to kill unless you are glass ele

thieves are certanly not wvw first problem

what wins wvw matches? coverage, map zerg, hammer train… not thief stealth

You leave a thief alone in a keep/tower with a well hidden dead corpse of a mesmer, and you’ve lost it. The fact that perma-stealth still exists is the reason why I suggest the ability to give reveal with specific AoEs.

RyuDragnier.9476:

You leave a thief alone in a keep/tower with a well hidden dead corpse of a mesmer, and you’ve lost it. The fact that perma-stealth still exists is the reason why I suggest the ability to give reveal with specific AoEs.

Not the professions fault that you leave a dead mesmer in the tower or that you leave a thief in the tower. I don’t think there are any new places to hide anymore that players don’t already know about. That is all the players fault for not guarding or sweeping properly. The person guarding the tower should be also watching that mesmer.

How about just changing stealth stomping. Weird mechanic that goes against evertyhing the downstate brings to the game.

A skilled thief can troll 10+ people in a keep for over 20 minutes Creative. I should know, I’ve pulled it off myself in Hills with all those glorious glorious hiding spots on inner. I only died at the end because I lagged for a brief second, and misjudged the timing on one of my skills. That was the only thing that killed me.

RyuDragnier.9476:

A skilled thief can troll 10+ people in a keep for over 20 minutes Creative. I should know, I’ve pulled it off myself in Hills with all those glorious glorious hiding spots on inner. I only died at the end because I lagged for a brief second, and misjudged the timing on one of my skills. That was the only thing that killed me.

Stealth trap stops thiefs trolling inside keeps.

RyuDragnier.9476:

A skilled thief can troll 10+ people in a keep for over 20 minutes Creative. I should know, I’ve pulled it off myself in Hills with all those glorious glorious hiding spots on inner. I only died at the end because I lagged for a brief second, and misjudged the timing on one of my skills. That was the only thing that killed me.

They are not very good players if you are able to troll them. About the only people you are going to troll as a thief are scrubs. It doen’t take 10 to guard a keep, that is about 8 too many. I can see that some like to have a few more in the structure to help man siege if you are expecting an attack while your main force is out, but otherwise they are not very good and this is a learning expierence for them.

Cynz.9437:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’d change the time on the reveal of course to avoid it being too powerful. Like maybe 4-7 second reveal?

why…. why would stealth need a nerf on first place? it was already nerfed couple times

to 10th time: unless anet adds other means of survival there is no point nerfing stealth or add even more counters; thieves are not hard to kill unless you are glass ele

thieves are certanly not wvw first problem

what wins wvw matches? coverage, map zerg, hammer train… not thief stealth

But people want the easy bag, that’s the only explanation.
As i said, here it’s full of pvp heroes while, as we all know, wvw it’s full of blobs. They don’t get they can’t farm this class. That’s why you see only crycrycrynerfnerfnerf and NOTHING about real balance.
Meanwhile it’s full of braindead builds, aoe everywhere, CCs without dr but no one is able to kill a thief just becouse are all used to play stacked to commander spamming 111111111.
Timing? Dodge? trying to not to waste skills randomly?
Meh better going on with the same bullkittens, with misinformation, “it’s not fair” classic excuse.
It’s involve less brain.

lol thieves aren’t the easy bags. if you are dying as a thief you are doing it wrong.

dear anet, since ppl want stealth be hard countered due it being “Op” i would also love some hard counters to invulnerability, to toughness stacking, vitality stacking, to CC stacking, to passive regens etc.

i would love thief traps completely remove any invul, protection, stability and reduce target base HP by half… i think it would be just “fair” if we gonna add hard counters to stealth

i play a thief, necro and warrior in wvw…

if i make one mistake on a thief i mostlikely will die
if i make mistake on necro, w/e just go death shroud in worst case
if i make mistake on warrior, w/e just face tank it. another mistake, NP, more facetank

i find it OP that those classes can do so much dmg and be so tanky, bring them to thief level ty

Cynz.9437:

dear anet, since ppl want stealth be hard countered due it being “Op” i would also love some hard counters to invulnerability, to toughness stacking, vitality stacking, to CC stacking, to passive regens etc.

i would love thief traps completely remove any invul, protection, stability and reduce target base HP by half… i think it would be just “fair” if we gonna add hard counters to stealth

i play a thief, necro and warrior in wvw…

if i make one mistake on a thief i mostlikely will die
if i make mistake on necro, w/e just go death shroud in worst case
if i make mistake on warrior, w/e just face tank it. another mistake, NP, more facetank

i find it OP that those classes can do so much dmg and be so tanky, bring them to thief level ty

If you die on your thief due to one mistake, you are doing it wrong, lol. I play multiple thieves, and they are ezmode in wvw.

Edit: I most likely going to regret placing this post, since most forum users only read the things they want to read in a wall of text so a summary.
—> I think thief stealth does need a revamp so they have to make a choice how they use it on the other side if this mean they need new tools to make a viable not buster build, they should get access to such tools.

Okay my main is an ele (underpowered I know), I also have several alts however, including a PU memser (playing both condition and direct damage with it). The point mentioned about it is not possible to kill thief is very true, in general I only kill thief when they stealth to late and most thief builds do have so much stealth they can stealth at will. However I don’t think more counter play will be the solution to stealth. Like mentioned about stealth, it can be used both offensive and defensive, and it is possible to do that both at the same time, there is no need to make a dissension. In my opinion stealth needs a revamp that indeed make burst thief’s like the should be, if you fail your burst you die. On the other side there might be need in this case to give thief other tools to survive (I do not know allot about thief’s, only profession I never level to 80), so they have other viable builds beside of burst builds. On the other side only changing the stealth of thief would not be fair, in this case the stealth of PU memser also needs to be revamped at the same time, since PU mesmer are incredible strong in a 1 v 1 situation, which is what they are used for.

For thief the best solution would be to replace the stealth leap finisher for something else and maby also the blast one, however this one is not as effective and might cause less trouble to stay in the game, this would give thief’s the option to swap to a short bow and use 2 to blast a smoke field, which would force them to make a choice between staying in their weapon set or use a stealth finisher. This would also in a way lower their mobility.

And a little thing about ride the lighting for ele since I did read something about that above, they way they nerfed that is about the worst way ever, because they did want people to use it offensively, so that means putting pressure on opponents when they start running. So they gave it a 40 sec cd that half when you hit an opponent. Ever tried to pressure a thief or warrior with it, it’s hard to hit them with it while chasing them, only reason why I can actually chase the warrior is the 3 skill in earth and thiefs are just shear impossible to chase. So TBH I don’t get why they did nerf the movement speed of eles and not the movement speed of warriors and especially thief that have allot of escape tool in the current situation.

morrigana sedai.2091:

…I do not know allot about thief’s, only profession I never level to 80….

Should better have refrained from making suggestions then

frans.8092:

morrigana sedai.2091:

…I do not know allot about thief’s, only profession I never level to 80….

Should better have refrained from making suggestions then

that was pointed toward I do not know the alternatives they have and not allot is relative to other professions, I know most of they can stealth and run away whatever char I’m on playing on, even if I bring they to like 100 hp they tend to be able to escape. Beside I also mention if changing stealth mean they need new tools to survive it’s not more as fair they get it. And it’s not very hard to see stealth in this game in it’s current form is a broken mechanic. And your response does not help with a positive discussion with only quoting one certain line that get things out of context, you are exactly the kind of person why I made the edit that I was probably was going to regret posting it.

@morrigana sedai: the problem is, people don’t understand how much thieves rely on stealth

if you nerf it anymore in any way, any main hand dagger builds (where dmg comes mainly from BS which has positional requirement and stealth) will be completely destroyed; the only builds that would be left is pistol main hand and sb/sb…. and both of them are….terrible…

i also don’t understand why thief has to be punished by death if his burst missed, other classes don’t have to pay that price

using black powder to get stealth off with sb is terrible idea and won’t ever work for 2 reasons:
1. if you use sb clusterbomb to get stealth off and there is any target nearbly you will get revealed debuff and stealth will never happen on first place

2. sb dmg is while not that low is actually not so great either, only real dmging spells are clusterbomb and chocke bomb which probably have slowest travel time than any other spell in game; landing it on moving target is not so easy

warriors can allow to have well telegraphed animations because they actually hit really hard and warriors are tanky enough to sit that long in that animation and take some beating; thieves can’t, they can one-two shot by about anything

you also complain about thieves getting away “easy” when they get low… but did you ask yourself why did you get thief so low so fast actually? and what choice do they have?
if i play my necro and get low and don’t have heal up, i can just go death shroud, i have reliable fears, i can go plague form

if i play warrior and get low on HP, i can use utilities that nullify dmg and HS + adrenal. healing will make sure that i heal for 800+ HP per sec

thieves don’t have any of that luxery

Cynz.9437:

@morrigana sedai: the problem is, people don’t understand how much thieves rely on stealth

if you nerf it anymore in any way, any main hand dagger builds (where dmg comes mainly from BS which has positional requirement and stealth) will be completely destroyed; the only builds that would be left is pistol main hand and sb/sb…. and both of them are….terrible…

i also don’t understand why thief has to be punished by death if his burst missed, other classes don’t have to pay that price

using black powder to get stealth off with sb is terrible idea and won’t ever work for 2 reasons:
1. if you use sb clusterbomb to get stealth off and there is any target nearbly you will get revealed debuff and stealth will never happen on first place

2. sb dmg is while not that low is actually not so great either, only real dmging spells are clusterbomb and chocke bomb which probably have slowest travel time than any other spell in game; landing it on moving target is not so easy

warriors can allow to have well telegraphed animations because they actually hit really hard and warriors are tanky enough to sit that long in that animation and take some beating; thieves can’t, they can one-two shot by about anything

you also complain about thieves getting away “easy” when they get low… but did you ask yourself why did you get thief so low so fast actually? and what choice do they have?
if i play my necro and get low and don’t have heal up, i can just go death shroud, i have reliable fears, i can go plague form

if i play warrior and get low on HP, i can use utilities that nullify dmg and HS + adrenal. healing will make sure that i heal for 800+ HP per sec

thieves don’t have any of that luxery

I repeat one more time, I said stealth should be changed and if needed thief’s should get new tools instead to survive. Beside of that death shroud and damage damage immunity (direct only for war with the cd you mean, since condition cd is 100% reduce so no full immunity). You keep seeing them they cannot escape unseen with it, or for the same matter reset the fight with it. I had fights with thief that did reset combat over 5 times. I don’t say change stealth and make the worthless, I say change stealth and give them other tools back if needed. You are only complaining about thief cannot survive without infinite access to stealth, so it seems to be needed to get new tools if stealth change. However Please Learn To Read, Again I Repeat, This Is Why I though I Would Regret Posting It, Because People Only Read What They Want To Read, And The Ignore The Rest In It. And if you start about healing signet on warrior, every build with a healing signet is viable, which is wrong indeed also, but that would be off topic.

morrigana sedai.2091:

frans.8092:

morrigana sedai.2091:

…I do not know allot about thief’s, only profession I never level to 80….

Should better have refrained from making suggestions then

that was pointed toward I do not know the alternatives they have and not allot is relative to other professions, I know most of they can stealth and run away whatever char I’m on playing on, even if I bring they to like 100 hp they tend to be able to escape. Beside I also mention if changing stealth mean they need new tools to survive it’s not more as fair they get it. And it’s not very hard to see stealth in this game in it’s current form is a broken mechanic. And your response does not help with a positive discussion with only quoting one certain line that get things out of context, you are exactly the kind of person why I made the edit that I was probably was going to regret posting it.

I don’t post suggestions about pervasive changes to classes I don’t know enough about either. I don’t mean to be too harsh but all these idea’s about changing stealth get a bit tiresome some times.

I know most of they can stealth and run away whatever char I’m on playing on

Many more classes can get away from a fight if they choose to. But somehow people are not complaining about them, the complaint is about thieves getting away even though that is a part of their ‘archetype’ in this setting.

frans.8092:

Many more classes can get away from a fight if they choose to. But somehow people are not complaining about them, the complaint is about thieves getting away even though that is a part of their ‘archetype’ in this setting.

People complain about thieves getting away because every other class you can stop from getting away easily, and stop them from coming back to annoy you for a while. Thieves? No, once we enter stealth we can easily be pretty much become untouchable and can just bide our time before striking again and again, leading to much annoyance. That’s the main reason why people complain about a thief escaping, we’re annoying because in most cases we WILL keep trying to gank you until more people come so we completely back off to avoid dying, you die, or unless we know there’s no way we can take you down (meaning battles are ending in stalemates or the enemy is that strong). There is no killing a thief who knows what they’re doing without more numbers (and even then, a good thief still won’t die).

mrmadhaze.8706:

LordByron.8369:

warrior and mesmer are about sustained…..except shatter mesmers..
And yes its how burst profession are supposed to work in ANY game..

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDCOFB78ZzA

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r4E9N50lTs

heh it’s indeed how it should works!!!!11!!11!!!!!!!!!!!!
rofl

i dont see what is wrong because unlike thief this kind of warrior is seen from Miles away and if you ve been around for a while you ll know the first thing 80% warrs will do is open with a stun or knockdown so you can actually counter them and this kind in particular is full glass cannon

mrmadhaze.8706:

Cynz.9437:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’d change the time on the reveal of course to avoid it being too powerful. Like maybe 4-7 second reveal?

why…. why would stealth need a nerf on first place? it was already nerfed couple times

to 10th time: unless anet adds other means of survival there is no point nerfing stealth or add even more counters; thieves are not hard to kill unless you are glass ele

thieves are certanly not wvw first problem

what wins wvw matches? coverage, map zerg, hammer train… not thief stealth

But people want the easy bag, that’s the only explanation.
As i said, here it’s full of pvp heroes while, as we all know, wvw it’s full of blobs. They don’t get they can’t farm this class. That’s why you see only crycrycrynerfnerfnerf and NOTHING about real balance.
Meanwhile it’s full of braindead builds, aoe everywhere, CCs without dr but no one is able to kill a thief just becouse are all used to play stacked to commander spamming 111111111.
Timing? Dodge? trying to not to waste skills randomly?
Meh better going on with the same bullkittens, with misinformation, “it’s not fair” classic excuse.
It’s involve less brain.

how in the hell is it other people’s fault that you stealthed and decided to INSTANTLY KILL someone who cant even see you ? how is skill even involved in that

DODGE why the hell do you guys keep recurring to this as last resort
when it is obvious you cant dodge what you aint cant or wont see
basically you ll try dodge when thief shadowsteps and already lands his/her first hit wich will stun you and then you most likely die to next hit if you arent a bunker

imagine an axe/mace warrior stealthed permanently yeah counter his eviscerate and knockdown

Rezzet.3614:

mrmadhaze.8706:

Cynz.9437:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’d change the time on the reveal of course to avoid it being too powerful. Like maybe 4-7 second reveal?

why…. why would stealth need a nerf on first place? it was already nerfed couple times

to 10th time: unless anet adds other means of survival there is no point nerfing stealth or add even more counters; thieves are not hard to kill unless you are glass ele

thieves are certanly not wvw first problem

what wins wvw matches? coverage, map zerg, hammer train… not thief stealth

But people want the easy bag, that’s the only explanation.
As i said, here it’s full of pvp heroes while, as we all know, wvw it’s full of blobs. They don’t get they can’t farm this class. That’s why you see only crycrycrynerfnerfnerf and NOTHING about real balance.
Meanwhile it’s full of braindead builds, aoe everywhere, CCs without dr but no one is able to kill a thief just becouse are all used to play stacked to commander spamming 111111111.
Timing? Dodge? trying to not to waste skills randomly?
Meh better going on with the same bullkittens, with misinformation, “it’s not fair” classic excuse.
It’s involve less brain.

how in the hell is it other people’s fault that you stealthed and decided to INSTANTLY KILL someone who cant even see you ? how is skill even involved in that

for thief to instantly kill someone the target has to be uplv w/o gear…. i can do it on ele and warrior as well

besides you CAN see thieves, refuge is pretty obvious, black powder+ leap is very obvious as well

It’s interesting. Despite enemies swinging madly, i rarely get hit while in refuge.